Indian Naval Discussion

Snehashis
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 24 Jan 2012 13:01

Will wrote:The TOI reports that India is negotating for a second nuke sub form Russia. Heard this after a longtime after initial reports. Wonder how far its true. While they are at it they should just go ahead and lease a total of 5. :mrgreen:



Looks like Irbis will follow Nerpa. But there are no unfinished Akula hulls left except Irbis atm. So if we want 5 from Russia then Yasen class could be a possibility. :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 24 Jan 2012 13:03

I just wanted to ask a random question out of curiosity. Have ever before any other country had sub-leased a nuclear submarine to any other country except India-Russia ?
Leasing a nuclear submarine for a 10 years basis clearly indicate how much Russia trust us and that all over these years we have been able to maintain that trust.
Cheers to India-Russia friendship !! :D :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 24 Jan 2012 13:46

India becomes 6th nation to join elite nuclear submarine club

NEW DELHI: India's long hunt for a nuclear submarine is finally over. But it will take the country another 10-12 months to get an operational nuclear weapon triad - the capability to fire nukes from land, air and sea.

India on Monday became the world's sixth country after the US, Russia, France, the UK and China to operate nuclear-powered submarines when the Russian Akula-II class submarine `K-152 Nerpa' was commissioned into Indian Navy as INS Chakra on a 10-year lease under a secretive almost $1-billion contract inked in 2004.

The 8,140-tonne INS Chakra, however, is not armed with long-range nuclear missiles, like the Russian SS-N-21 cruise missiles with an over 2,500-km range due to international non-proliferation treaties like the Missile Technology Control Regime.

The Indian nuclear triad's elusive underwater leg will only come when the homegrown nuclear submarine, the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant equipped to carry a dozen K-15 (750-km) or four K-4 (3,500-km) ballistic missiles, becomes fully operational by early-2013. India has the land and air legs in the shape of the Agni series of missiles and fighter jets capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

Defence ministry sources said INS Chakra, commissioned at the Primorye region in far south-eastern Russia in a ceremony attended by top Indian and Russian officials, would soon set sail for India. It will be based at Visakhapatnam, next to where INS Arihant is slated to begin extensive sea trials in February-March after the ongoing harbour-acceptance trials.

Though it may not add to India's nuclear deterrence posture, INS Chakra will give some much-needed muscle to India's depleting underwater combat arm, which has only 14 ageing conventional submarines to brandish. India is in talks for the lease of another Akula-II class submarine from Russia, say sources.

Nuclear-powered submarines are stealthy since they can operate underwater at long ranges for months unlike diesel-electric submarines that need to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries and have limited endurance due to fuel requirements.

INS Chakra will also be armed with the 300-km range Klub-S land-attack cruise missiles, which India deploys on its Kilo-class conventional submarines as well as other missiles and advanced torpedoes.

"It will be deadly `hunter-killer' of enemy submarines and warships, as also provide effective protection to a fleet at sea. It can also provide cover to the nuclear-armed INS Arihant if required. With a dived speed of 30-35 knots, INS Chakra will be able to outrun any current Pakistani or Chinese submarine," said a source.

The Navy will also use INS Chakra to train its sailors in the complex art of operating nuclear submarines. The `Charlie-I' class nuclear submarine India had leased from Russia from 1988 to 1991 was also named INS Chakra but the expertise gained on it was steadily lost since the Navy did not operate any other nuclear submarine thereafter.

The new 10-year lease flows from the January 2004 agreement, with India funding a major part of Nerpa's construction at Komsomolsk-on-Amur shipyard after Russia stopped it midway due to a fund crunch. It was slated for induction much earlier but technical glitches delayed the process, which included a toxic gas leak in November 2008 that killed 20 Russian sailors.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 24 Jan 2012 14:43

we should work with Rubin to custom design a 6500t hunter-killer single hull SSN design for us to be constructed once the Aridaman and her next sister are out of construction. Rus will always go for double hull to break up thick ice and because they like double hulls for heavy subs...we need to be lean and light on our feet...

- non penetrating mask and EO sensors
- excess of power vs weight ratio for 35knot submerged speed
- lean manned and high levels of automation
- 8-12 VL tubes for brahmos-N/Nirbhay-N
- 6 TT for 21" torps and klub/nirbhay - total 40 weapons
- towed, flank sonar as usual, high freq mine avoidance sonars
- our first spherical bow sonar
- Marcos delivery chamber and clip on submersible

this would be our flagship desi 688I standard class and production run should be atleast 8 preferably 12.

there's major local work in atleast a dozen areas that need to come together for this beast to happen...starting from a more powerful reactor...next gen quieting measures...new HWT to be deployed from NPOL one....nirbhay...sphercial sonar and its processing back end....steel and titanium machining to highest standard....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Will » 24 Jan 2012 14:48

SagarAg wrote:I just wanted to ask a random question out of curiosity. Have ever before any other country had sub-leased a nuclear submarine to any other country except India-Russia ?
Leasing a nuclear submarine for a 10 years basis clearly indicate how much Russia trust us and that all over these years we have been able to maintain that trust.
Cheers to India-Russia friendship !! :D :D


Why do you think India puts up with delays,price escalations and all sort of crap from Russia? The simple reason is that no other country will provide you stuff like nuclear subs.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Jan 2012 18:20

Look,info about the details/modifications,special requirements that the IN want,will never be available in the public domain.Therefore talk of delays,escalation,etc. in the media my also be part of a disinformation campaign.The most secretive projects have been the ATV and acquisition of Akulas and the IN's planned procurement of N-subs.

I agree with Singha that a slightly smaller class of SSGN would be perhaps more suited to the IN,but the challenges would be very tough,esp. automation and reactor design,to still be able to carry a weaponload of 40.It would also be preferable to have tubes of two sizes-why,even Israel's Dolphin German built subs have two sizes,the larger ones for launching LR N-tipped cruise missiles.The ATV appears to have been designed with quietness as it top priority,as its sail does not look as if it was designed for high speed,unlike the Akulas.

Austin,there are several other distinctive external features which Ak-3s have ,which only a closer examination of her hull,etc.will reveal.I agree about what is unknown internally.
Last edited by Philip on 25 Jan 2012 14:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby koti » 24 Jan 2012 18:36

Maybe OT, but can the supercavitation be used for subs too?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Jan 2012 18:50

A quote from a report about the Gorky delayed arrival,hopefully this year end.

Other Indian naval officers have already admitted that they were partially to blame for the Gorshkov fiasco. They admit that when they signed the deal in 2004 Indian engineers had not closely inspected the Gorshkov and agreed, after a cursory inspection, that many electrical and mechanical components buried within the ship's hull were serviceable. It turned out that many of those components were not good-to-go and had to be replaced, at great expense. Shortly after the contract was signed the Russians discovered that the shipyard had misplaced the blueprints for the Gorshkov and things went downhill from there.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... 20123.aspx

PS:Shipyard "misplaced the drawings..." ? A fishy tale indeed.I suspect that the Ukranian yard was quietly selling off the details to another Asian navy,which also examined the Gorshkov for acquisition around the same time that India was looking at it,and has now has repaired another Sov. era unfinished carrier,also built by the Ukraine,the Varyag!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Suraj » 25 Jan 2012 01:02

The Chinese already have two of the four Kiev class carriers - Minsk is in Shenzhen and Kiev in Tianjin, both as 'amusement parks' there. They're better off taking those apart. Varyag is a Kuznetsov class carrier, so the blueprints are unlikely to be of much use.

Still no pictures of Arihant. It's become our J-10 :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 25 Jan 2012 03:08

Philip wrote:A quote from a report about the Gorky delayed arrival,hopefully this year end.

PS:Shipyard "misplaced the drawings..." ? A fishy tale indeed.


Total BS. There are two sets of blueprints - one with the designer bureau, the second one with the construction yard.
In the case of Gorshkov, the second set was in sovereign Ukraine and was not available for Sevmash yard in Russia. So what they had was designer's (not builder's) blueprints from Nevsky naval design bureau. The designer's set is not exactly the same as builder's, due to problems encountered and rectified in the process of construction of the ship.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 25 Jan 2012 03:10

koti wrote:Maybe OT, but can the supercavitation be used for subs too?

From a non-expert viewpoint, I think that would need a very large amount of gas (tough) being ejected through several pores in the large hull (tough). It would also be very noisy.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narmad » 25 Jan 2012 04:50


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narmad » 25 Jan 2012 04:53

Furore over Buddhist site given to Navy
Posted on Jan 24, 2012 at 08:58am IST

VISAKHAPATNAM: The All India Lay-Buddhist Organisation (AILBO) and the Forum for Better Visakha (FBV) have decided to move the court against the government order transferring around three acres of Thotlakonda Buddhist site to the Indian Navy to construct a 60 feet road making a passage to its own site of around 100 acres beyond Thotlakonda.
The controversial GO No. 37, issued on January 18, kicked up a row in Visakhapatnam. The Thotlakonda Buddhist site is a protected monument on the Bheemili beach road, about 15 km from Visakhapatnam. The monument is located on the top of a hill.
The site spreads over an area of around 600 acres and has been declared a protected monument by the Department of Archaeology and Museums, Government of Andhra Pradesh.
Incidentally, it is the Indian Navy which discovered the Thotlakonda Buddhist site during the aerial survey conducted for setting up the Naval base in Visakhapatnam.
The archaeology department carried out major excavations at the site between 1988 and 1993.
The structures include a mahastupa, 16 votive stupas, a stone pillared congregation hall, 11 rock-cut cisterns, well-paved stone pathways, an apsidal chaitya-griha, three circular grihas, two votive platforms, 10 viharas, a kitchen complex with three halls and a refectory (dining hall).

The GO permitting transfer of land to the Navy said there was no other way for the Navy to reach its site, which is beyond Thotlakonda There is no other direct passage to the Navy site, it said.
The Indian Navy proposed that the 60 feet road to be constructed can be used commonly by both the Navy and the Department of Archaeology.
Archaeology department’s assistant director in-charger, IDV Prasad Babu, said the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is said to have plans to set up a coastal surveillance radar system at the Naval site to detect, identify and track maritime vessels.
The land will be given to the Navy only temporarily, he added.

He said the Navy should create a passage to its site via Kapulaupadda, sparing the Buddhist site.FBV convener EAS Sarma said the archaeology department failed to safeguard the centuries old Buddhist site.
If the road is built, the structures at the site will get damaged because of heavy vehicular traffic, he said and urged the Navy to lay their road via Jeeyar Ashram and protect the Buddhist site.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Jan 2012 22:29

Sensitive Navy information leaked?

Sources have told TIMES NOW that four Indian Naval officers allegedly leaked sensitive naval information. The Navy had been tracking the four officers for a few months and action against the officers was recommended in January. In August 2011, a sweep conducted by Command Intelligence of the WNC chanced upon a trail wherein four officers of Commander level rank were found allegedly misusing their online networks and releasing information which were detrimental to Navy's interests. This information included location of ships, frequency and location of patrolling, nature of ammunition on board and other technical details. The Navy personnel's personal hard disks allegedly contained confidential data that they were not supposed to carry home.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby member_20067 » 26 Jan 2012 06:26

just curious ...if BRF can be considered a part of the social network.. I guess so....

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2012 20:21

>> This information included location of ships, frequency and location of patrolling, nature of ammunition on board and other technical details.

no such info has ever been posted in BR from anyone in the navy or out ever.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Jan 2012 11:18


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby abhishekm » 27 Jan 2012 11:22

Sorry- didn't know where else to post this, but INS Vikrant is open to the public again tomorrow (Saturday, January 28, 2012). I believe entry is through Tiger Gate. Nearest rail link- Churchgate Station. Get down and either take a bus or a cab.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Jan 2012 13:14


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Jan 2012 13:40


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Jan 2012 13:46


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 27 Jan 2012 13:55

CG Commander Shankar Man Rai conferred Nao Sena Medal

Guys' regret the Nausena Medal. I have already amended the headlines.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jan 2012 18:41

Just for comparison with our adventure to acquire the Gorky,here is a link to the intriguing tale of the new PLAL carrier,Shi Lang/Varyag.Once rejected by India (some must be ruing the decision in South Block)mwe now have to devise tactics in the worst case scenario where we have to sink it.

It also spurs debate on the shape and size of IAC-2,which should be larger and perhaps rely on both N-powered reactors as an option.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-2 ... chase.html

Floating-Casino Bid Turned Into China’s Biggest Aircraft Carrier Purchase

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 27 Jan 2012 22:35

Just for comparison with our adventure to acquire the Gorky,here is a link to the intriguing tale of the new PLAL carrier,Shi Lang/Varyag.Once rejected by India (some must be ruing the decision in South Block)mwe now have to devise tactics in the worst case scenario where we have to sink it.


Perhaps, IF they had known the fiasco that the Gorky kicked up.

However, I do not think so. Even the Chicom took a few others and umped them until they got to the Varyag.

Both nations have a method to their madness. It should work out well for both. Unless of course Indian politicians play their distinct role.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 28 Jan 2012 07:51

Sail Training Ship INS Sudarshini inducted:

INS Sudarshini inducted into Navy

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kailash » 30 Jan 2012 12:06

Russian-built frigate introduced to Indian Navy specialists

Indian Navy officers and seamen are familiarising themselves with INS Teg (Sabre), which is being built by the Yantar Baltic shipbuilding plant in Kaliningrad, spokesman for the plant Sergei Mikhailov said.

“Some 200 Indian seamen and officers have “settled” on INS Teg, the first of the three ships of the 11356 project, which has been completed at Yantar – they have been introduced to the new frigate and have started familiarising themselves with its equipment under the guidance of their Russian counterparts from the Baltic Fleet,” Mikhailov said

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jan 2012 12:15

Philip wrote:Just for comparison with our adventure to acquire the Gorky,here is a link to the intriguing tale of the new PLAL carrier,Shi Lang/Varyag.Once rejected by India (some must be ruing the decision in South Block)mwe now have to devise tactics in the worst case scenario where we have to sink it.

It also spurs debate on the shape and size of IAC-2,which should be larger and perhaps rely on both N-powered reactors as an option.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-2 ... chase.html

Floating-Casino Bid Turned Into China’s Biggest Aircraft Carrier Purchase



Where are those damned backfires? :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinayG » 30 Jan 2012 14:34

Cain Marko wrote:Where are those damned backfires? :twisted:


Image


2 squadrons with Rambas support i think it will be enough to sink any chnini carrier group
:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saje » 30 Jan 2012 18:03

Philip wrote:It also spurs debate on the shape and size of IAC-2,which should be larger and perhaps rely on both N-powered reactors as an option.


Had a doubt... As per Wikipedia the MW output for the propulsion units seem to be similar for the Arihant class submarines and the Vikrant class carriers. So does it mean that they are keeping the above-mentioned option open?

General characteristics
Class and type: Arihant-class submarine
Type: SSBN or SSGN
Length: 111 m (364 ft)[2]
Beam: 15 m (49 ft)[2]
Draft: 11 m (36 ft)[2]
Propulsion: PWR using 40% enriched uranium fuel (80 MWe );
[2] one turbine (47,000 hp/70 MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller (estimated)

General characteristics
Class and type: Vikrant class
Type: Aircraft Carrier
Displacement: 40,000+ tonnes[1]
Length: 262 metres (860 ft)
Beam: 60 metres (200 ft)
Draught: 8.4 metres (28 ft)
Propulsion: 4 General Electric LM2500+ gas turbines, 2 shafts 80+ MW
Speed: 28 kn (52 km/h)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby nachiket » 31 Jan 2012 03:22

^^The Arihant's reactor is rated 80MWth I believe, not 80MWe.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 31 Jan 2012 04:17

Compare Indonesia's naval plans,numbers of warships,etc, wiht that of the IN's stted recentl;y in a post.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 74719.html

Green Water Navy

Hence, in 2005, TNI-AL announced its "Green-Water Navy" blueprint to achieve a 274-ship force structure by 2024, divided into a Striking Force (110 ships), Patrolling Force (66 ships), and Supporting Force (98 ships). In addition, it is also upgrading existing assets with new systems and armaments. This is Indonesia's largest naval modernisation plan in over 40 years. The last major modernisation was during 1959-1961 when Indonesia purchased a substantial number of Soviet-made naval vessels.

The blueprint has since been gradually realised with some new platforms joining the fleet. All four Sigma-class corvettes built in the Netherlands have been in service with TNI-AL since 2009. In 2011, Indonesia's amphibious capabilities were also boosted with the commissioning of the fourth Makassar-class Landing Platform Dock (LPD) vessel. One of them even participated in a hostage rescue operation in the Gulf of Aden in March 2010.

For its patrol muscle, Indonesia's naval shipyard, PT PAL, has been able to manufacture fast attack craft and arm them with Chinese C-802 anti-ship missiles. PT PAL is also keen to integrate various naval weapon systems into different platforms. In April 2011, a Russian Yakhont missile mounted aboard an ex-Dutch Van Speijk frigate was successfully test-fired. Such integration of "hybrid" systems would most likely characterise Indonesia's naval shipbuilding capacity in the near term, rather than the more ambitious whole-platform construction of submarines or frigates.

Regardless, TNI-AL also has plans for a major procurement for this decade. PT PAL is about to jointly construct frigates and submarines with foreign naval shipbuilding companies. In August 2010, a project was agreed to locally construct four to 16 guided missile escorts (Perusak Kawal Rudal, PKR) in cooperation with Dutch Damen Schelde. This 2,400 tonne 105m multi-purpose frigate will be fitted with an array of anti-submarine, anti-surface, anti-air, and electronic warfare systems. TNI-AL's two Cakra-class (Type-209/1300) submarines will also be complemented with three Type-209 Chang Bogo procured from South Korea. With the procurement budget recently increased from Rp.47.5 trillion (US$5.28 billion) in 2011 to Rp.64.4 trillion (US$ 7.15 billion) in 2012, TNI-AL's future fleet might be one step closer to fruition.

Obstacle Course

Nevertheless, Indonesia still has to face several obstacles. Corruption, a hodgepodge of platforms and systems, and a continental-based defence strategy have often plagued Indonesia's naval modernisation schemes and warfighting effectiveness. Former Defence Minister Juwono Sudarsono acknowledged corruption practices, in that up to 40 percent of procurement proposals could be mark-ups. Standardisation is also a significant challenge as the Indonesian Defence Forces (TNI) operates 173 main weapon systems from seventeen different countries. Lastly, Indonesia still retains its "Total Defence" strategy which puts heavy emphasis on manpower and land operations.

For the Navy to be effective, an overarching maritime defence strategy is required. This means that the sea, rather than the land, should become TNI's main operational environment. As the Senior Service, the Army would be strenuously opposed to such a shift. Given that these obstacles remain unaddressed, Indonesia's naval modernisation is not something for other countries to get nervous about. Though not a sea change yet, it is still quite a change to be reckoned with.

Ristian Atriandi Supriyanto is a research analyst in the Maritime Security Programme at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies, Nanyang Technological University and a former researcher at the Centre for East Asian Cooperation Studies, University of Indonesia.

Last edited by Philip on 31 Jan 2012 13:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby narmad » 31 Jan 2012 04:29

14 countries to join India in naval exercise

Aiming to strengthen cooperation among the navies in the region, Indian Navy will host 14 of its counterparts from South East Asia, Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean Region ( IOR) for the eighth edition of the Milan exercise in Andaman and Nicobar Islands starting Wednesday.
Of the 13 participants who came last year, only Vietnam would be missing this year.
From the Indian side, the Andaman and Nicobar Command (ANC) will be the host for the event and will field its various warships, including INS Kesari fleet tanker.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 31 Jan 2012 20:13

Yantar, 29 January
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 01 Feb 2012 22:15

SSN Nerpa to Depart for India in February

Nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) Nerpa leased by Russia to India a week ago will leave Russian waters by Feb 10, reported Khabarovsk regional government on Jan 30.

According to release posted on Khabarovsk government's official website, the sub will stay at Vostok marine equipment plant in Bolshoi Kamen during the first decade of Feb 2012 undergoing preparatory activities.

"The sub is being fully equipped with appropriate hardware, armaments, and other supplies needed for journey to a new basing site, i.e. naval base Vishakhapatnam on India's east coast. SSN Nerpa will be navigated by Indian crew which had passed training near St. Petersburg. However, the crew will be assisted by Russian experts", said Vladimir Bychenko, Minister of Industry and Transport, Khabarovsky Krai.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 02 Feb 2012 04:01

Vikramaditya sea trials to begin in May.

The Indian Navy's Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (erstwhile Admiral Gorshkov) is finally ready to sail out for accelerated sea trials in May this year, though delivery schedules have slipped once again to the displeasure of the customer. The trials will be conducted with a great degree of anticipation considering that the vessel, originally called Baku hasn't been out to sea in roughly 20 years since it was decommissioned from Russian service.

While the Navy was keen to take control of the warship before Navy Day in December this year, sources reveal that February 2013 is the rough new timeframe when Vikramaditya will be in Indian hands -- more than 9 years after Russia agreed to transfer the ship to India following a refit and refurbishment. When Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma visited the Sevmash shipyard in July last year, he had personally asked shipyard director Andrey Dyachkov to hand over the ship before the winter months, but the team conducting mooring trials has already slipped timescales. The Navy's controller of warship production Vice Admiral N.N. Kumar had raised the issue once again in September last year.

Through 2011, the Sevmash trial team has tested power systems, major systems, wiring, electronic equipment, hydraulics and other major systems on board the vessel. It is only after both the Sevmash team and the Indian Navy group stationed in Severodvinsk are satisfied that docked trials are completed satisfactorily that the ship will be cleared for sea trials. As of now, this has not been achieved yet.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2012 06:05

The US is looking for a new basing agreement with Manila.Russian naval ships are-a-visiting too.Time for the IN to also start looking further east.The name of the naval game,"Checkmate China"!

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/24577/ ... -day-visit

3 Russian Navy ships dock in Manila for 3-day visit
By DJ Yap
Philippine Daily Inquirer

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 02 Feb 2012 06:36

Philip wrote:The US is looking for a new basing agreement with Manila.


Is there a link that says so? TIA.

I ask because the news reports are rather clear on the matter. IF true, then your post is disinformation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2012 08:18

Not disinformation.Latest reports indicate just that,though current statements talk about using base facilties on vists,mil. exercises,etc.,so as to keep local feathers unruffled.

BBC:
27 January 2012
Philippines seeks to strengthen US defence ties
Manila complains over China ships
South China Sea tensions rattle China's neighbours

The Philippines has confirmed that it is discussing ways to "maximise" defence ties with the US amid territorial disputes in the region.

In a statement, the foreign affairs secretary cited the need for more joint military exercises to protect national interests.

The statement was in response to a Washington Post story alleging a possible return of US bases.

The Washington Post on Wednesday reported that officials were possibly in the early stages of negotiating the return of US bases to the country, "the latest in a series of strategic moves aimed at China".[/quote]

Although American ships can visit the area, it is unclear how the United States can operate there under the limits imposed by the Philippine Constitution.

Earlier reports:
Philippine Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario speaks in Manila in August 2011. The Philippines announced plans on Friday to allow a greater US military presence on its territory.

Pentagon officials confirmed that the discussions with the Philippines covered more joint military exercises and more frequent American naval visits to Philippine ports. “This is not about looking for U.S. bases in the Philippines,” said Capt. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman. “This is simply about trying to move our relationship with the Philippine military forward.”

The talks, which were first reported by The Washington Post on Thursday, are the latest attempt to bolster the American presence in the Asia-Pacific region to counter a rising China. President Obama toured the region in November, announcing in Australia that he would deploy thousands of Marines to a base there. During Mr. Obama’s Asia tour, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton visited the Philippines to reaffirm the military relationship. The Philippines and China both have territorial claims to islands in the South China Sea, or, as it is called in Manila, the West Philippine Sea — a term that Mrs. Clinton pointedly used.

The delegation of four American senators visiting Manila last week included Joseph I. Lieberman, a Connecticut independent, who saluted what he called “the dawn of a new era in the relationship between the United States and the Philippines.”

The two countries maintain a mutual defense treaty, signed in 1951, and negotiated an agreement in 1998 that allowed the American military to visit and conduct joint operations in the Philippines. The United States provided the Philippines a coast guard cutter in May, and the two countries have been holding joint military exercises near the islands at the center of the territorial dispute with China.

Subic Bay is now a civilian special economic zone. Although American ships can visit the area, it is unclear how the United States can operate there under the limits imposed by the Philippine Constitution. “That is what is being discussed right now,” Mr. Galvez said. The delegation in Washington is led by Pio Lorenzo F. Batino, the Philippine Defense Department’s under secretary for legal and legislative affairs and strategic concerns.

Philippine groups that fought to have American military bases ejected in the early 1990s have been monitoring the developments with concern. “The United States military is violating our sovereignty and intruding on our internal affairs,” said Lana Linaban, secretary general of the women’s rights organization Gabriela. “In the guise of military support, they are influencing our government.” She said American bases had created many problems, like increased prostitution, that still erupt after the port calls and joint military exercises.

“We should defend our country with our own military,” she said.

But a Philippine senator, Richard J. Gordon, who administered Subic Bay after the departure of the Americans, said in a recent interview that greater American military engagement had become vital for the Philippines and for the United States. “The United States has been losing ground in this region,” he said. “You have a China that is beginning to flex its muscles, and it is pushing us around. I don’t like that. Its record with its neighbors is not very good. We need to have a fireman nearby.”


:
http://news.yahoo.com/philippines-flags ... 41521.html

Philippine Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario speaks in Manila in August 2011. The Philippines announced plans on Friday to allow a greater US military presence on its territory, in a move analysts said was directly aimed at trying to contain a rising China.

Philippines flags greater US military presence
AFPBy Mynardo Macaraig | AFP – Fri, Jan 27, 2012

Philippine Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario speaks in Manila in August 2011. The Philippines announced plans on Friday to allow a greater US military presence on its territory, in a move analysts said was directly aimed at trying to contain a rising ChinaEnlarge Photo

Philippine Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario speaks in Manila in August 2011. …
Kurt Campbell (front L), US Assistant Secretary of State, Philippine Foreign Affairs Undersecretary for Policy Erlinda Basilio and other officials meet in Manila, in 2011. The Philippines announced plans on Friday to allow a greater US military presence on its territory, in a move analysts said was directly aimed at trying to contain a rising ChinaEnlarge Photo

Kurt Campbell (front L), US Assistant Secretary of State, Philippine Foreign Affairs …

The Philippines announced plans on Friday to allow a greater US military presence on its territory, in a move analysts said was directly aimed at trying to contain a rising China.

Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario said the Philippines was looking for more joint military exercises with its former colonial ruler, as well as having a greater number of US troops rotating through the Southeast Asian country.

"It is to our definite advantage to be exploring how to maximise our treaty alliance with the United States in ways that would be mutually acceptable and beneficial," del Rosario said in a statement.

Admiral Robert Willard, head of the US Pacific Command, welcomed the offer, saying the US was looking for ways to bring troops into Southeast Asia without the costs of permanent bases.

"We would welcome discussions with the Philippines along those lines, but there's no aspiration for bases in Southeast Asia," he told a news conference in Washington.

Del Rosario did not specifically name China as driving the Philippines' push for a greater US military presence, but highlighted "territorial disputes".

The most pressing territorial dispute for the Philippines is with China over rival claims to parts of the South China Sea, home to some of the world's most important shipping lanes and believed to hold vast deposits of fossil fuels.

The Philippines and Vietnam, which also claims parts of the South China Sea, complained repeatedly last year of what they said were increasingly aggressive acts by China in the decades-long rift.

The alleged acts, which included a Chinese naval ship reportedly firing warning shots at Filipino fishermen, fuelled fears among some nations in the region about China as its military and political strength grows.

In his statement, del Rosario said a greater US military presence in the Philippines would help bolster regional security.

"Such cooperative efforts would as well result in achieving a balance of influence to ensure peace, stability, and economic development in the region," he said.

Nevertheless, del Rosario and other officials emphasised there were no plans to allow a return of the large-scale US military bases that existed in the Philippines until 1992, when Filipino senators voted to close them down.

Del Rosario said the increased US military presence could include "planning more joint exercises to promote interoperability and a rotating and more frequent presence by them".

Aside from regular military exercises, the most notable US presence in the Philippines in recent times has been a rotating force of about 600 troops that has been stationed in the southern Philippines for the past decade.

The US special forces train local troops in how to combat Islamic militants, but are not allowed to have a fighting role.

Philippine officials said more talks would be held in March to determine specifics of the plans.

Political analysts in Manila said the Philippines' decision to allow a bigger US military presence was a direct reaction to China's perceived increased aggressiveness, particularly regarding the South China Sea.

"The Philippines is now playing the US card to get more leverage against China," said Rommel Banlaoi, head of the Philippine Institute for Peace, Violence and Terrorism Research.

Rene de Castro, a lecturer in international studies at De la Salle University said: "We are playing the balance of power game because we have no means to deal with an emergent and very assertive China."

In a strategic shift that has angered China, the United States has been looking to increase its military presence across the Asia Pacific.

US President Barack Obama said in November the United States would deploy up to 2,500 Marines to northern Australia. The next month a US admiral wrote that the US expected to station several combat ships in Singapore.
Last edited by Philip on 02 Feb 2012 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2012 08:26

was the subic bay mega base closed due to post-cold war downsizing or due to philippine citizens pressure?

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2012 08:38

Local pressure mainly and because the US presence was linked directly to the hated dictatorship of Marcos.The assassination of Aquino and the eventual fall of Marcos also coincided with the ending of the Cold War.The Chinese greed and aggro in the region.occupying islands just off the coast of the Phillipines,etc., is why reports are emerging of a poss. return of the US to the Phillipines.In any Pacific maritime spat with China,the Phillipines will be one of the most strategic regions to control,as the Japanese saw in WW2 and invaded the islands at the start of their military campaign.

PS: A late buddy of mine was an expert on the Phillipines,studied there,knew Marcos when he was only a senator,and was almost posted there as ambassador.We watched the gripping fall of Marcos together on telly with his vivid personal inputs.


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