Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Fidel Guevara
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Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Fidel Guevara » 29 Apr 2012 02:55

The Missiles and Munitions thread is being monopolized by the Agni V discussions, and other missile discussions might be getting washed out of prominence.

This thread is intended to exclusively discuss the recent launch of the Agni-V ICBM, and impacts on India's strategy, and also new technologies and capabilities offered to war planners.

May I request that the last few pages of the Munitions thread be transferred over here?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Fidel Guevara » 29 Apr 2012 03:05

Page 31 of Missiles & Munitions thread, when the A5 was launched:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6219&start=1200

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Apr 2012 06:24

There are already a couple of 'analysts' dismissing or denigrating the significance of the Agni 5. Praful Bidwai is the most negative and obnoxious. Manoj Joshi has been sour. And there's Kanti Bajpai with his article in TOI "Missiles, Missiles, Everywhere" where he puts down Agni 5 as 30 year old technology, then takes a dig at Indian science in general for not producing more papers and more nobel laureates. How best to counter these sour-pus types? Ignoring them is one way. Stating the facts firmly is another- there are several technologies in the Agni which were developed in India for the first time. If ICBM's are old and simple technology, why aren't Somalia, Peru, Madagascar and Philippines producing them?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 13:39

How best to counter these sour-pus types

Ideally, wish we could kick these Bh*****ds on the nuts, but since that is not possible, how about giving point by point rebuttal and using the social media to nail them. 30 year old technology indeed... actually we should say that most missiles use 250 + year old technology since they are based on Newtonian physics :twisted:

How about creating a page on Face Book, something like "Nailing the Dorks,Kandle Kissers and Jai Chands in the Indian Media"?? If this sounds good, I will be happy to contribute in what ever way possible :)

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby NRao » 29 Apr 2012 14:11

Varoon Shekhar wrote:There are already a couple of 'analysts' dismissing or denigrating the significance of the Agni 5. Praful Bidwai is the most negative and obnoxious. Manoj Joshi has been sour. And there's Kanti Bajpai with his article in TOI "Missiles, Missiles, Everywhere" where he puts down Agni 5 as 30 year old technology, then takes a dig at Indian science in general for not producing more papers and more nobel laureates. How best to counter these sour-pus types? Ignoring them is one way. Stating the facts firmly is another- there are several technologies in the Agni which were developed in India for the first time. If ICBM's are old and simple technology, why aren't Somalia, Peru, Madagascar and Philippines producing them?


For starters it would be nice (and very appropriate) to provide links.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Drishyaman » 29 Apr 2012 14:22

Varoon Shekhar wrote:There are already a couple of 'analysts' dismissing or denigrating the significance of the Agni 5. Praful Bidwai is the most negative and obnoxious. Manoj Joshi has been sour. And there's Kanti Bajpai with his article in TOI "Missiles, Missiles, Everywhere" where he puts down Agni 5 as 30 year old technology, then takes a dig at Indian science in general for not producing more papers and more nobel laureates. How best to counter these sour-pus types? Ignoring them is one way. Stating the facts firmly is another- there are several technologies in the Agni which were developed in India for the first time. If ICBM's are old and simple technology, why aren't Somalia, Peru, Madagascar and Philippines producing them?


+1
I have stopped reading Frontline Magazine for one such Prafool Bidbai and another Arun(phata)dhooti Roy. Always talks negative.

saumitra_j wrote:How about creating a page on Face Book, something like "Nailing the Dorks,Kandle Kissers and Jai Chands in the Indian Media"?? If this sounds good, I will be happy to contribute in what ever way possible :)


I think we should have a thread here as well against such dorks

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 14:28

NRao sir, here are the links:


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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 14:35

I think we should have a thread here as well against such

Sir, there is already a thread on tracking errors in Media... problem is BRF does not have the same type of visibility that social media has. The second problem is to get the message across to the DCH/TOILet reading generation, we will have to be very precise but concise and the message should be delivered in a simple form... not many folks have the time, the intellectual urge or the patience to go through the details. A few bullet points which convey the message in an effective way is what I am thinking of...

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby NRao » 29 Apr 2012 14:59

saumitra_j wrote:NRao sir, here are the links:



Thanks. That is the right way to do such things.

Coming back to the topic, what is new there? Rant on defense ....................

However, I do support the thinking that India is badly failing on other accounts - have been for about 10-15 years now. Roads, education, parallel underground economy, health, food, etc. The nation is not making sufficient progress in these areas to maintain internal stability. And, cricket never be able to compensate for that.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 15:15

Let me try to dissect the articles though, starting with Missiles, missiles everywhere

When we tested nuclear weapons in 1998, the government, the media, and the Indian public were spectacularly undignified. A lot of vulgar and foolish things happened in the ensuing months - intemperate statements by our leaders, media coverage that was adulatory and clownish, and public behaviour that was childish (handing out sweets in the streets).


Ok, so what he wanted was Indians to keep stiff upper lips and say nothing about it. Could be his point of view and I will live with it. However, this is where the spin starts:
Predictably, the Pakistanis punctured our bubble. They tested immediately and then attacked in Kargil to show that nuclear weapons did not scare them.

The small matter that our tests were basically to force the Pakis to show their hand and check mate the 3.5 friends is long lost on a guy who claims to be a political anal-yst. I can only conclude that either he is dumb, in which case he should not be writing at all or he is a Jai Chand. To top of it all, he makes an equal equal with this:
Pakistan's public reactions were as juvenile as ours, if not more so, which shows that South Asians are cut from the same cloth.
The small matter that Pakis have only been going down hill and the 3.5 friends cannot help the Pakis without having repercussions on their own due to India forcing them to show their hand is simply lost on this Anal-yst....
Then comes this:
With India's Agni V missile test two weeks ago and Pakistan's Hatf IV Shaheen-1A test, we have had a replay of 1998. Missiles are not as big a deal as nuclear weapons, so our leaders were more restrained this time round. The media, though, was pretty much as bad as before, thinking it appropriate to talk a lot of nonsense about India's ability to project power (to Europe, amongst other destinations). Unlike 1998, the public did not rush out into the streets to party, which was a relief; instead, the blogosphere, the new public square, lit up with commentary, most of which would shame a nine-year-old.
So our friend is feeling ashamed about what people write on the Blog. Talk about being Holier than Thou.....
Now comes some classic drivel:
That it managed to produce a missile which can carry a nuclear warhead 5,000 km is noteworthy but hardly the stuff of national celebration. After all, it took nearly 30 years to produce a missile of that range.
So in one sentence, he is wiping out all the scientific and technical achievements. The smaller matter of developing technological capabilities step by step which no body would share and those who have had it since last 50+ years is completely lost on this Anal-yst. Some more drivel:
Any one of a dozen countries today could do it - and in short order. These include Japan and both the Koreas, just in Asia, and surely it would not take Australia very long. Pakistan's latest Shaheen already has a range of 3,000 km, so it is not technologically beyond our next-door neighbour's capabi-lity either. And Iranian missile technology is catching up fast.

So Pakis have mastered re entry technology through painting Chinese missiles, the North Koreans have mastered solid rocket propelled missiles, wow.. :rotfl: This kind of analysis should put any serious analyst to shame, and our friend here is worried about 9 year olds :twisted: One tell tale sign of WKK type is when he refuses to call a spade a spade i.e. Paki Missiles as being Chinese/North Korean. The last sentence above tells us where our friend's political thoughts lie.
Then comes the classic self flagellation:
The point is that missiles, as much as nuclear weapons, are old technology. Hopping up and down about them is silly. India's scientists have not particularly distinguished themselves (nor have Indian social scientists). If we look at the number of scientific papers published in leading journals, patents filed, and inventions credited to Indians, our scientists do not rank high. China ranks well ahead, as do Japan and South Korea. Britain, with 60 million people, has had 76 Nobel laureates in science and technology.

So missiles and nukes are old technology indeed! Like I said before, they are really old technologies as missiles and a nuke bomb ultimately are based on Newtonian Physics :rotfl: The Pakiness of our friend is evident in the next sentence: What has not having patents and scientific papers got to do with a strategic missile?? And what does he mean by "not having distinguished itself?? Getting into d1ck measuring contests(China produces more papers than India, Britain has more Nobel Laureates blah blah) is what certified Pakis (i.e. losers but with Pakiness in them) do... Now for some more drivel:
India has had only one that worked in India (C V Raman, who worked in British and not independent India) and three that worked outside India (Har Gobind Khorana, Subramanyan Chandrashekhar and Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, all in the US). There are probably only two Indian technologies that have international name-recognition - the Jaipur leg prosthetic device and the Nano mini car - which are home-grown.
The fact that so much technology is being developed and used in India is of course not an achievement, we should always seek international attention per this dork :evil:
Then more crap on other social/economical problems ...
Why are we so undignified over things like the missile test? The answer most likely is that we have so little to celebrate, with human development indicators lower in key areas than our South Asian neighbours and sub-Saharan Africa. Indians are eating less in calories terms than a decade ago. We have millions of more males than females in our population: the social consequences of this male surplus will be massive. Our education system is in a shambles. Our infrastructure is scarily bad. The only town in India with clean drinking water is Jamshedpur. We have a fiscal crisis looming, stuttering growth, rising prices, stagnating agriculture, caste and religious discrimination, partisan politics to the maximum, and policy paralysis. Governance, particularly at the state-level, where one absurd chief minister replaces another, is so awful that you run out of adjectives.

I think our friend in addition to being a dork, Kandle Kisser and Jai Chand, is seriously depressed. :rotfl: He is mixing up the test of a strategic missile with all sorts of things.....wow...
And finally, another show of Pakiness:
If India wants to be respected and secure in the long run, it should celebrate clean renewable energy and the eradication of polio far more than the launching of a new missile. That would be worth many sweets in the streets.
Why should we "seek" to be respected by mass murderers and looters (i.e. the present so called First World??)? Since he is talking about polio eradication, he should also have mentioned why we could not meet the targets in the first place... but let truth not come in the way of rhetoric. Such is the quality of Anal-yst in the country, and of course they write for TOI let...

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 15:35

Now this is what Manoj Joshi has to say in Al Guardian:
Joshi pointed out that the missiles were being developed by the Defence Research Development Organisation without much oversight from policymakers."It's worrying that government scientists can issue press releases and make statements that could have an impact on policy," Joshi said.

According to this dork, DRDO programs gets multi million dollar budget without any oversight, the FM and Raksha Mantri are simply idiots who do paper pushing. Wow. And he says this to a foreign news paper.... another certified Jai Chand :evil:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby saumitra_j » 29 Apr 2012 15:47

:rotfl: ok, now for the third one: Jai Chand v/s Jai Chand

Dork No 1 baits Dork No 2 by saying something on the lines of Indian scientist, politicians etc were in a celebratory mood after the success of Agni 5 test. to which Dork No replies:
It reminds me of this very chauvinistic hyper-nationalism the kind that was witnessed in Germany and Italy before the war (World War II) and this is a fanaticism of a different kind which really disturbs me
So by test firing a missile and celebrating the scientific success, we become Facists and Nazis :evil:

The test of it is usual drivel like
We should not be proud of weapons of mass destruction. It (Agni 5)will prove more ruinous for India without any strategic advantage
this guy is also depressed and has gone completely bonkers must see a loony doctor soon :rotfl:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Fidel Guevara » 29 Apr 2012 19:02

Playing around with Google Maps, it turns out that the distance from Trivandrum to the North East corner of China is 6500km. That is the minimum range required for ASSURED response, anywhere in Pandanistan. 5000 km is good if you're launching from North or East India, but there is no guarantee that will actually be the case.

The range maps that we've seen are based on the most optimal launch site, right on the nearest border. Think of a scenario where the Chinese launch a first strike, and take out most of our assets in the North, leaving only some missiles in the South.

With 6,500 km range, any missile anywhere in mainland India can hit any spot in mainland China.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Fidel Guevara » 29 Apr 2012 19:14

saumitra_j wrote::rotfl: ok, now for the third one: Jai Chand v/s Jai Chand

Dork No 1 baits Dork No 2 by saying something on the lines of Indian scientist, politicians etc were in a celebratory mood after the success of Agni 5 test. to which Dork No replies:
It reminds me of this very chauvinistic hyper-nationalism the kind that was witnessed in Germany and Italy before the war (World War II) and this is a fanaticism of a different kind which really disturbs me
So by test firing a missile and celebrating the scientific success, we become Facists and Nazis :evil:

The test of it is usual drivel like
We should not be proud of weapons of mass destruction. It (Agni 5)will prove more ruinous for India without any strategic advantage
this guy is also depressed and has gone completely bonkers must see a loony doctor soon :rotfl:


"very chauvinistic hyper-nationalism and this is a fanaticism of a different kind which really disturbs me"

With all his education he hasn't heard of the word "Jingoism"? And yes, jingoism does "really disturb" the Jai Chands and Mir Jaffers, and JNU wallahs. :rotfl:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Altair » 29 Apr 2012 20:17

^^
If ever that guy visits BRF!

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby RoyG » 29 Apr 2012 20:36

Praful almost let "bulls*it" slip out of his mouth when referring to deterrence. These parasites are around airing their views precisely because we have a deterrent capability to protect dharmic society. Take a look at the comments section...indians on the net dont buy his idiocy.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby SagarAg » 29 Apr 2012 20:42

Fidel Guevara wrote:Playing around with Google Maps, it turns out that the distance from Trivandrum to the North East corner of China is 6500km. That is the minimum range required for ASSURED response, anywhere in Pandanistan. 5000 km is good if you're launching from North or East India, but there is no guarantee that will actually be the case.

The range maps that we've seen are based on the most optimal launch site, right on the nearest border. Think of a scenario where the Chinese launch a first strike, and take out most of our assets in the North, leaving only some missiles in the South.

With 6,500 km range, any missile anywhere in mainland India can hit any spot in mainland China.


If you go through Dr. Saraswat interview in Walk the talk (link in Multimedia section) he states that A5 Tessy range is 5000+ and he went up to 5800km (without actually stating the exact range) between words in the interview that A5 Tessy was tested for its full range. And considering the strategic aspects why will SFC fire A5 from Trivandrum reducing its range by 50% by flying right across India first then into pandaland. Though I agree with you we should have the capability to cover entire pandaland from anywhere in India but I think it is more than a credible deterrent against panda and that whole of Chini is under our striking radar. :twisted: :D

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Fidel Guevara » 29 Apr 2012 21:05

For those who like fast-accelerating ABM videos. This missile defines the word "urgency"!



To say Sprint was a phenomenal missile, is putting it mildly. A cone shaped missile that accelerated at 100g, achieved a speed of Mach 10 in 5 seconds 8) , had an ablative coating to dissipate the heat that was generated from the fiction from the atmosphere. It was a phenomenal missile.

Sprint was 'popped' from its launch silo by a powder gas generator which propelled a piston on which the missile rested. The missile was pushed through a membrane at the top of the cell, while the piston is stopped at the mouth of the silo. Once clear of the cell, the first stage was ignited and the missile tilted over in the direction of the incoming target. Aiming the missile so early in the trajectory reduced the forces involved in moving the missile's trajectory and allowed a very fast interception to take place. Some reports indicate that the missile was supersonic by the time it left the cell. 8)

The first stage had a short burning time, with the second stage igniting 1.2 seconds after launch. Flight control during the 1st stage burning is via fluid injection. Second stage control is obtained via the small aerodynamic fins. Detonation of the warhead was on ground command and was expected to be at an altitude of between 1500m and 30,000m (5,000ft and 100,000ft). The incoming RV was expected to be destroyed by both the nuclear blast, and the high velocity neutrons. (The Sprint warhead was infact one of the so called'neutron bombs' that caused so much controversy during the 1970s). The complete interception was expected to take less than 15 seconds.

Air friction alone during flight of the missile generated temperatures of up to 3400°C (6200°F), and the ablative heat shield could dissipate heat at rates up to 850 BTU/ft/sec. Sprint was also constructed to withstand shocks up to 25,000Gs which meant it could handle nearby nuclear explosions and their resulting blast (how hardened it was to EMP and radiation is unknown). When in flight, the missile was surrounded by a plasma sheath which the command signals from the MSR were able to penetrate. This was achieved due to the sheer high power of the MSR (a beam that was less than 1 degree wide, and had a power of at least 1MW).
Launches

There were two series of test launches of Sprint missiles. The first series covered the initial development launches at White Sands and then testing switched over to system and operational launches at Kwajalein. This first series of launchers had 12 successes, with 2 partial successes and 2 failures. The second series of operational launches took place at Kwajalein of which 29 were successful.


There you have the sexiest missile ever - supersonic by the time it exited the silo, reaches rifle bullet speed in less than 1 second, becomes whitehot within 5 seconds of launch, and handles 25,000 g shocks.

Wonder what can be done with this basic concept, with today's technology?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Apr 2012 21:21

What is quite frankly amazing about the likes of Bidwai and Vanaik( and probably K.Bajpai), is that they display considerable empathy with China in its security concerns. Thus, you will see statements along the lines of "China developed WMD with the US and later Russia in mind" or "China will feel it needs more missiles if the US develops more advanced anti-missile systems" and similar stuff -not exact quotes of course. But it's the underlying sentiment of empathy or at the very least, cold, matter of fact analysis where China is concerned, that is baffling. Bidwai even accused India of 'needling' China about its missiles and nukes!

Where are the strong, unequivocal moral and ethical denunciations of China from these anti-militarist, anti-jingoist commentators? If anything, their criticisms of China should be even more severe than India. China has more WMD, and has been conducting tests for a longer period of time, than India.

There's an Indian mentality that just likes the idea of being weak, of surrendering, of always pointing out what India is doing wrong.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby tejas » 29 Apr 2012 23:47

I used to read columns by Profool just to see what drivel he could come up with. I have yet to ever read an ariticle by him that I was not in 100% disagreement with. It's almost like the article was not written by a human but by a bot that had as its only goal the weakening and subsequent destruction of India. A traitor/buffoon like this would have been tarred and feathered in the US. His solution to every problem is for India to unilaterally disarm and remain technologically backward. I long ago stopped reading anything he writes/says as it only served to raise my blood pressure.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby rajrang » 30 Apr 2012 01:20

Fidel Guevara wrote:Playing around with Google Maps, it turns out that the distance from Trivandrum to the North East corner of China is 6500km. That is the minimum range required for ASSURED response, anywhere in Pandanistan. 5000 km is good if you're launching from North or East India, but there is no guarantee that will actually be the case.

The range maps that we've seen are based on the most optimal launch site, right on the nearest border. Think of a scenario where the Chinese launch a first strike, and take out most of our assets in the North, leaving only some missiles in the South.

With 6,500 km range, any missile anywhere in mainland India can hit any spot in mainland China.


Why stop at 6,500 km? If the intent eventually is to arm nuclear submarines with MIRV versions of this missile, then more range is always better because the submarine will have more ocean area for roaming and can be at a greater distance from the coast of Pandashit, making submarine detection more difficult.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2012 03:57

Fidel, Right now the A5 Tessy third stage is the most impressive motor in the world. It lights after re-entry!!!
The conical shape gives it inherent stability like the feathers on an arrow. With its blending with the RV it becomes integral to it. I was the first to refer to the Sprint shape.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2012 07:30

Saumitra_j
The guy is beyond moron. He is a cretin*.
A5 Tessy RV is unique. its world class and drops a 1.5 tonne payload in Beijing's lap like Jayadrath vadh.

Thats one of a kind.
The guys are so full of hate that they cant recognize achievement by fellow Indians. Total Resident Non Indians (RNI) as opposed to NRIs!!!

* If this cretin's family were not related to Sir Girija Shankar Bajpai, ICS and and outstanding officer and son of India, he never would have gotten into IFS and become the MEA secy.


The sad thing about India is the banyan tree. It does not let other banyan trees grow under it and hence weeds like this rascalla*** come up.

** SRK in Ra One!
Last edited by ramana on 30 Apr 2012 21:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to clarify- ramana

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Apr 2012 10:07

Mr. Bidwai is neither a pure fool nor a moron. He is playing the part of Charioteer Shalya. But I doubt if his tricks are working or if his readers take him seriously. I am sure he is getting his 40 pieces of silver for his work.
Gautam
Last edited by g.sarkar on 30 Apr 2012 12:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 30 Apr 2012 10:46

ramana wrote:Saumitra_j
The guy is beyond moron. He is a cretin*.
A5 Tessy RV is unique. its world class and drops a 1.5 tonne payload in Beijing's lap like Jayadrath vadh.

Thats one of a kind.
The guys are so full of hate that they cant recognize achievement by fellow Indians. Total Resident Non Indians (RNI) as opposed to NRIs!!!

* If this cretin's father were not Sir Girija Shankar Bajpai, ICS and and outstanding officer and son of India, he never would have gotten into IFS and become the MEA secy.



Ramana,

Kanti Bajpai's father was Uma Shankar Bajpai - former High Commissioner to Canada.

K. S. Bajpai (K. S. Bajpai is Kanti Bajpai's uncle), who became Secy MEA and Ambassador to US, is a hard hitting guy with clear thoughts on how India needs to combine diplomacy with military muscle, fairly different, I think, from the gentleman we are discussing - Kanti Bajpai.

Girija Shankar Bajpai was Kanti Bajpai's Grandfather.

Best.
Ashutosh

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby sudhan » 30 Apr 2012 13:06

I hope the dorks dissing the A5 read the comments on their own (f)articles.. Atleast one will experience "spontaneous combustion" out of the sheer hate they've invited upon themselves..

Fidel Guevara wrote:For those who like fast-accelerating ABM videos. This missile defines the word "urgency"!



OT here, but look up the 53T6 Gazelle :) Somebody had already posted a video of it on the missile thread, I guess..

Here is it anyway.. (Admins please excuse!)



Back on topic..

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby kittoo » 30 Apr 2012 13:49

Varoon Shekhar wrote:What is quite frankly amazing about the likes of Bidwai and Vanaik( and probably K.Bajpai), is that they display considerable empathy with China in its security concerns. Thus, you will see statements along the lines of "China developed WMD with the US and later Russia in mind" or "China will feel it needs more missiles if the US develops more advanced anti-missile systems" and similar stuff -not exact quotes of course. But it's the underlying sentiment of empathy or at the very least, cold, matter of fact analysis where China is concerned, that is baffling. Bidwai even accused India of 'needling' China about its missiles and nukes!

Where are the strong, unequivocal moral and ethical denunciations of China from these anti-militarist, anti-jingoist commentators? If anything, their criticisms of China should be even more severe than India. China has more WMD, and has been conducting tests for a longer period of time, than India.

There's an Indian mentality that just likes the idea of being weak, of surrendering, of always pointing out what India is doing wrong.


There is one moron in my office like this. Bugs the hell out of me. I avoid talking to him much lest we start discussing something along these lines. Says- 'Be pragmatic, not patriotic.' Idiot.

And of course he had to be Bengali. I mean, when in my house someone in my family says that Bengalis always prefer China, I tell them that its just a very little percentage of them etc. Then I come to my office and there is only one bengali, and he had to be a China suppoeter!

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Multatuli » 30 Apr 2012 14:13

Concerning Praful Bidwai: I think Bidwai mainly writes for foreigners (and of course the treasonous/deracinated Indians). It's very simple: Bidwai writes the sort of negative articles to undermine Indian self-esteem that his white masters/sponsors in Europe and elsewhere can not write themself, as they (the gora's) would then show their true ugly racist/supremacist/imperialist mugs.

There are for example Dutch organizations that frequently invite Bidwai to the Netherlands for "workshops", "seminars", etc..

These Dutch organizations/individuals are of the leftist/Marxist/Communist/Christian variety.

They always underline that:

1. Hindu fundamentalists/fascists are a threat to communal peace and harmony in India but also globally. Mind you, anyone who has a Dharmic vision for India is by definition a fundamentalist/fascist.

2. Hindu's in India, viciously persecute Muslims, Christians, other non Hindu's and even "enlightened" and "modern" Hindu's who have, through Western education, overcome their superstitious (Hindu) beliefs (think of Maino Shankar Aiyar as the standard-bearer of this breed of "enlightened" Hindu's).

The sub-text is that India would be much better of (indeed it's the necessary stage in the evolution of India) if Indians (read Hindu's) adopted Western culture and religion (Marxism/Christianism) and India became like South Korea or the Philippines.

Yes, scumbags like Praful Bidwai do it for the money, the free travels to Europe, "acclaim" from gora's and also because they are sick to the core.

Dutch "journalists" with a Christian/leftist leaning love to quote scumbags like Bidwai.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Boudhayan » 30 Apr 2012 15:54

kittoo wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:What is quite frankly amazing about the likes of Bidwai and Vanaik( and probably K.Bajpai), is that they display considerable empathy with China in its security concerns. Thus, you will see statements along the lines of "China developed WMD with the US and later Russia in mind" or "China will feel it needs more missiles if the US develops more advanced anti-missile systems" and similar stuff -not exact quotes of course. But it's the underlying sentiment of empathy or at the very least, cold, matter of fact analysis where China is concerned, that is baffling. Bidwai even accused India of 'needling' China about its missiles and nukes!

Where are the strong, unequivocal moral and ethical denunciations of China from these anti-militarist, anti-jingoist commentators? If anything, their criticisms of China should be even more severe than India. China has more WMD, and has been conducting tests for a longer period of time, than India.

There's an Indian mentality that just likes the idea of being weak, of surrendering, of always pointing out what India is doing wrong.


There is one moron in my office like this. Bugs the hell out of me. I avoid talking to him much lest we start discussing something along these lines. Says- 'Be pragmatic, not patriotic.' Idiot.

And of course he had to be Bengali. I mean, when in my house someone in my family says that Bengalis always prefer China, I tell them that its just a very little percentage of them etc. Then I come to my office and there is only one bengali, and he had to be a China suppoeter!



ahem ... I am a Bengali and I am a proud Chinese hater ! Thats a wrong notion that Bengalis are Chinese lovers.... for more information, check the postings of Bengalis on BRF against China :mrgreen:

Sorry if I went a bit OT on this... somewhere it hits me when such type-castings are done.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby kittoo » 30 Apr 2012 16:08

Boudhayan wrote:
kittoo wrote:There is one moron in my office like this. Bugs the hell out of me. I avoid talking to him much lest we start discussing something along these lines. Says- 'Be pragmatic, not patriotic.' Idiot.

And of course he had to be Bengali. I mean, when in my house someone in my family says that Bengalis always prefer China, I tell them that its just a very little percentage of them etc. Then I come to my office and there is only one bengali, and he had to be a China suppoeter!



ahem ... I am a Bengali and I am a proud Chinese hater ! Thats a wrong notion that Bengalis are Chinese lovers.... for more information, check the postings of Bengalis on BRF against China :mrgreen:

Sorry if I went a bit OT on this... somewhere it hits me when such type-castings are done.


Bodhiyaan ji,
I am not sure if you read my whole post. I wasnt saying, at all, that all Bengalis are China lovers. I was saying that I always tell people in my native place (a small place in Rajasthan and quite a few people still think Bengalis are affectionate of China) that its only a very small fraction of Bengalis. I was just pointing out that it was kinda ironic that then the only Bengali in my office turned out to be one. The 'of course' was sarcastic.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Boudhayan » 30 Apr 2012 16:21

kittoo wrote:
Bodhiyaan ji,
I am not sure if you read my whole post. I wasnt saying, at all, that all Bengalis are China lovers. I was saying that I always tell people in my native place (a small place in Rajasthan and quite a few people still think Bengalis are affectionate of China) that its only a very small fraction of Bengalis. I was just pointing out that it was kinda ironic that then the only Bengali in my office turned out to be one. The 'of course' was sarcastic.


aaa...... my bad Kitto Sir... had missed the sarcastic smell in the post...No harm done :wink: .. You can surely (and proudly) say at your native place that we Bengalis hate Chinese as much as we hate TSP :mrgreen:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby chaanakya » 30 Apr 2012 22:48

Logic no 1
All Bengalis are China Lovers
X is a Bengali
Therefore, X is a China Lover

Logic no 2
X is a Bengali and he is a China Lover
Y is a Bengali and he is China Lover
Z is a Bengali and he is a China Lover
Therefore, all bengalis are China Lovers.

Logic no 3
X is a Bengali
X is China Lover
Y is a Bengali
Therefore , Y is a China Lover.

Just Substitude Begali with anything or Lover with Hater.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2012 22:54

Enough derailing. Please stick to topic. Thanks.

kitto is it fair to derail the thread?

No need to answer for its not. So please think twice before hitting submit!

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby SaiK » 01 May 2012 00:14

shouldn't this thread be in strat?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 01 May 2012 01:29

X-Posted...

Looks like this op-ed was missed!

Beyond Agni 5

Beyond Agni-5
Go for ICBMs and thermonukes, says N.V.Subramanian.

25 April 2012: Now that the slightly over-the-top celebrations of Agni-5's test have ceased, some harsh truths must be told. Agni-5 has a five-thousand-kilometre range and can carry a one-ton nuclear payload. For India's strategic requirements, that is not enough.

Without stating who India's enemies are, the country must have deterrent capacities to reach anywhere, anytime. Since India is also a self-proclaimed second-strike power, it becomes critical to have credible and secure deterrents, and our current inventory is unsatisfactory.

From available evidence, it appears that India will deploy boosted fission warheads on missiles like Agni-5. It confirms that the thermonuclear devise tested on the first day of Pokhran II failed. The boosted fission trigger worked but couldn't ignite the paired fusion bomb.

The Indian nuclear scientific establishment has its own explanation for the low yield of the thermonuclear device. It has never satisfied the world. You can take the attitude that it doesn't matter what the world thinks. In other walks of life, that may work. But not when it comes to deterrent weapons.

Deterrent weapons not only have to be repeatedly tested for perfection. But they must satisfy the rest of the world. Only from world satisfaction comes credibility for a weapon system. If a deterrent is not credible, it is not worth having, and positively dangerous to flaunt.

It is possible that India has built a viable thermonuclear device after the Pokhran II fizzle. But this or a future Indian government will have a hard time testing it, especially as it will have a bearing on the Indo-US nuclear deal and the uranium fuel and reactor contracts flowing from it. Sooner or later, however, India has to overcome the obstacle and test -- and the sooner the better.

The Agni-5 test has produced little protest from major powers, which means there is greater reconciliation to India's military nuclear status. That should give India the creative opportunity and space to test a thermonuclear weapon. To stress, the sooner it is done, the better.

Boosted fission warheads that Agni-5 and longer range missiles are expected to carry have the bang, so to speak. But thermonuclear devices have more bang for the buck. With far better yield-to-weight ratios than fission or boosted-fission devices, smaller and lighter fusion warheads would cause vast destruction at greater distances. Which is where, therefore, Indian weapons' designs and tests must head, if the country must be counted as a serious weapons' power.

Which in turn leads to the quality, Indianness and reach of our missiles. Of course it is not a matter to tom-tom that you have missiles that go to the top end of ICBMs, but there is robust deterrent logic to have them. The longer the range of missiles, the more deployment options you have, and at greater strategic depth.

For example, it cannot make sense to deploy deterrent weapons in Jammu and Kashmir or Assam where they are most vulnerable to a first-strike. The longer the missile range, the further inland it can be deployed. But there are limits to the security of land-based deterrent systems. The Andamans may seem a long way away from the threats from the North and West, but weapons systems deployed there are vulnerable from sea and natural calamities.

A sea-based deterrent is more secure. But whilst it demands the most sophisticated, secure, fool-proof and fail-safe fire control, command and control and informational systems, its foremost requirement, after SSBNs, is long range missiles. And the longer the range of missiles, the more secure your deterrent.

Hence, whilst Agni-5 is a good starting point, India must place no ceiling on the missile range. If an Indian IRBM is acceptable to the world, why not an ICBM? And our need is for the longest range of ICBMs, so that we have secure deterrents deployed in any of the waters of the world. And with tested and perfected thermonuclear weapons, the world would accept the credibility and soundness of our deterrent.

That is where India should be headed.



Slowly the reasoning that Arun gave is making itself felt.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby AdityaM » 01 May 2012 01:40

"Slowly the reasoning that Arun gave is making itself felt."

Which was ?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 01 May 2012 01:59

^^^^ Shenanigans!

That writer does not understand how nuclear weapons work.

The "hard part" is the fission device. India has more than proven "the hard part".

Making a bomb thermonuclear is simply a matter of including fusable materials in close proximity to the fission blast, inside a neutron reflector. India tested a bomb with a very small amount of tritium, knowing that more is easily added; just to be able to confirm the nuclear chemistry post-blast (which was done, and moreover, the offer was also made to other scientists to visit the site and draw samples of radio isotopes to confirm a fusion reaction had occured. All of the "India fizzled" talk is BUNK!

FYI: The preferred fusable material is tritium; and India has a very large stockpile of tritium, on account of the heavy-water moderated reactors it operates (like the CANDUs), and a novel technology developed at BARC, which they refer to as "liquid phase catalytic absorption" (or approximate), which removes the tritium from the heavy water used in the primary coolant channels, around the fuel bundles.

Using tritium, making thermonuclear weapons is no more difficult than including a bottle of the stuff just inside the warhead, on the inside of a neutron reflector (I think, berilium (sic)).

Jingoes just want to goad the GoI into another test, because it makes them think their manhood is enlarged by such exercises. Scientifically speaking, there is no need for a large thermonuclear test, in order for India to prove her deterent capability.

Just ask yourself, if you were to be targetted by nukes, would you care about the nuclear chemistry happening overhead?

JMT.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 01 May 2012 02:11

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^^ Shenanigans!

That writer does not understand how nuclear weapons work.

The "hard part" is the fission device. India has more than proven "the hard part".

Making a bomb thermonuclear is simply a matter of including fusable materials in close proximity to the fission blast, inside a neutron reflector. India tested a bomb with a very small amount of tritium, knowing that more is easily added; just to be able to confirm the nuclear chemistry post-blast (which was done, and moreover, the offer was also made to other scientists to visit the site and draw samples of radio isotopes to confirm a fusion reaction had occured. All of the "India fizzled" talk is BUNK!

FYI: The preferred fusable material is tritium; and India has a very large stockpile of tritium, on account of the heavy-water moderated reactors it operates (like the CANDUs), and a novel technology developed at BARC, which they refer to as "liquid phase catalytic absorption" (or approximate), which removes the tritium from the heavy water used in the primary coolant channels, around the fuel bundles.

Using tritium, making thermonuclear weapons is no more difficult than including a bottle of the stuff just inside the warhead, on the inside of a neutron reflector (I think, berilium (sic)).

Jingoes just want to goad the GoI into another test, because it makes them think their manhood is enlarged by such exercises. Scientifically speaking, there is no need for a large thermonuclear test, in order for India to prove her deterent capability.

Just ask yourself, if you were to be targetted by nukes, would you care about the nuclear chemistry happening overhead?

JMT.
Saar A5 needs to be tested 3-4 times before induction, and I am not making it up, yet the 250kt TNW need not be tested even once! not once!

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 01 May 2012 02:12

Atleast he is adding a bottle of stuff and not a vial of that.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 01 May 2012 03:28

But it's nice to see one knowledgeable individual emphatically assert that the thermonuclear device worked, and it used only a small amount of fusion material. Ravi, what exactly was the criticism of the published paper(s) which sought to prove that the leftover chemicals are more the signature of a fusion explosion, than a purely fission one. India was pretty forthright in declaring what was tested and its yield, but is it true that non-nuclear scientists were allowed to examine the results?


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