Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 17 May 2012 04:15

One of my take-aways was the payload reduction from A3 to A5. Its not because A3 has a different payload - it just means that its payload packaging was inefficient and that has been optimized further with A5. Conversely, it also means that you have that much more playing room for MIRV in A5.

The interview also explains the confusion around whether A3 has been inducted & if so, why are there additional "development trials". Its most likely because the new dev trials are to fix the design flaws

TSS, as always, shines. One bright spot in an otherwise floundering Hindu.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 May 2012 17:44

so,.. I think got answers to the questions. I was thinking why not use the same thrusters that at the seperation time, do a reverse thruster by blocking and diverting the exahust in the reverse direction.. it could be more cumbersome than to engage the retro from top.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 May 2012 19:25

Normally stage separation is done by explosive cutting of the interstage structure a few millisecs after the ignition of the departing vehicle. If this separation is not clean you need the motor exhaustto be vented. Hence the vented interstage structure seen on early models. Earliest sep joints used detonating cord but was found to be too violent or shocky. Then shape charges were developed to do the same function. One key requirement is that moisture shouldn't degrade the charge.

Looking at A5 the way its transported and made ready for launch, the stage joints are not in load path.So reverse thrusters may do the job. I am still intrigued that there are no departing stage controls in the debris/exhaust path or are protected. The design seems to be constrained in the length direction to keep the launcher infrastructure same as for AIII.

The great job is sticking to schedule of less than four years for all the vehicle:motors, stage separation, new RV, navigation and control systems with redundancies. It beats all previous records. Also gives a sense of urgency.

The go ahead date of Dec 2008 right after 26/11 terrorist attack is interesting.

Again PRC got tangled up with the perfidy of their terrorist minion TSP.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 May 2012 21:09

Is it possible to vent like in a high bypass turbofan engine.. perhaps waste of space.

any other way possible to separate without explosion?

wow, what I found here is awesome:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/63154248/Stage-Separation

wonderful powerpoint with pics.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 May 2012 04:29

Frontline has returned to its former detailed in-depth features on defence,that used to be one its plus points.The interview with AC is remarkable for its candour and confidence that exudes from the Indian scientific community regarding our strategic deterrent delivery systems.Shourya looks most interesting especially if a naval variant for our capital ships is developed,as there will be a need for a cruiser/battle cruiser class warship once we operate 3 carriers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 May 2012 05:14

Philip, I still don't get the retro rockets for stage separation. I understand them being used to push away the stages but only after separation.
Also the four could be sort of flat pancake/chapatti (appam?) motors which fire for very short duration less than a second so to speak. More like impluse motors than rocket motors with sustained flame. I guess an empty F/S would weigh about a tonne. So four of these could be tonne of thrust each to give a 4 g aft kick to the departing F/S stage.

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 May 2012 07:16

The total thrust delivered by the retro rockets of Agni V is 16 tonnes not 4 tonnes.

Avinash Chander to T.S.Subramanian:

We decided to leave behind that culture of space vehicles. We now put big retro motors, which create a thrust of four tonnes each – totally 16 tonnes of thrust – just to separate the stages so that no dead weight is passed on to the upper stage.

Frontline

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 May 2012 21:03

So either F/S empty weigh more than one tonne or they are hedging for only some of the retros firing. 16 tonnes of thrust is quite large.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 May 2012 21:52

something is not clearly brought out in that report. 16 tonnes of thrust indeed is a waste for retro. In fact, if separation can be clean at that mach speed, then the continuing stage begins a higher thrust than the spent one. The spent one could shut off the nozzle, and divert the exhaust sideways could be the simplest design I can think for reverse [side thrust].

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 May 2012 23:58

Could it be 2 retro rockets between stages 1 and 2, and 2 retro rockets between stages 2 and 3?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2012 04:41

Finally the grand old lady speaks!

Tribune, 23 May 2012

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120523/edit.htm#4

Signalling strategic deterrence
Chinese link to Pak N-programme
by Arundhati Ghose

Signalling has been an intrinsic part of human communication — at interpersonal and international levels — to send messages to the other party or parties, subliminally avoiding direct methods which may have unwanted consequences. From the days of the chest -thumping hirsute cave man to the nuclear weapon power, signals have been used to threaten, persuade and even cajole. The danger lies, of course, if the signal is misread or not read at all and the consequences of such misperceptions may, in fact, be the opposite of what was originally intended. Deterrence is perhaps one of the most direct yet subtle forms of signalling, depending, of course, on the perception of credibility of the deterrence.

Recently, there has been a series of events which illustrate this proposition. On May 10, Pakistan carried out what it called a “training launch”, when it tested the Hatf III short-range (290 km) nuclear capable ballistic missile at an undisclosed location. Given that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are India-specific, this would be seen as routine, if troublesome. Earlier, however, Pakistan had tested what it called the Shaheen IA in what could only be seen, because of the timing, as a ‘response’ to India’s test of Agni V. Yet Agni V’s range was 5000 km, clearly not of relevance to Pakistan.

India, particularly its strategic community, and the world took note of the test launch of Agni V on April 19 this year. While most of the more serious commentators focussed on the technological advances achieved, others identified the diplomatically described ‘strategic deterrent’ as one which had China as its ‘raison d’etre’, given the range and capacity of Agni V. Though the deterrent is some way away from becoming operational, the signalling, in the form not only of the actual test and its coverage, but also the several statements from the senior leadership, was clear. For several years now, according to a detailed study by the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme (ISSSP) of the National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), Bangalore, Chinese nuclear tipped missiles in Qinghai and Yunnan have been targeted at India, with the ranges of the missiles covering most of the Indian mainland. The successful launch of the Agni V introduces the beginning of a balance in the situation. The Chinese government has reacted with some sobriety, calling for partnership rather than rivalry, though its statements in the UN Security Council would indicate that the signal had been received. Its official media, on the other hand, seemed to have taken umbrage, dismissing the challenge to China as being untenable — from India’s poor infrastructure to the enormous technological and military lead China had over India to even suggesting that, for reasons not explained, that India had not revealed the true range of the missile. Then, on April 25, Pakistan tested what it called the ‘Shaheen IA’.

There has been little or no comment from India on this test, following as it did the usual pattern of Pakistan imitating each action of India’s; only a few foreign commentators felt, somewhat unimaginatively and ignorantly, that this illustrated ‘an arms race between two nuclear armed neighbours in South Asia’. The question that really needs to be asked is: was this ‘business as usual’ like the Hatf III, or was a signal being sent? If the latter, given that Pakistan would appear to be absorbed in trying to handle an economic and political crisis domestically, and a foreign policy one on the US and Afghan front, what was being signalled?

The Inter-Services Public Relations of Pakistan in a Press release claimed that the Shaheen IA was an ‘improved version’ of the Shaheen I with ‘improvements in range and technical parameters’. However, no specific range was announced. The ISSSP, which studies the missile capabilities of India’s neighbours, has assessed that the Shaheen IA is only marginally different from the Shaheen I (estimated range-673 km), which has already been tested 10 times. The range could, they feel, be improved if the missile throw mass is reduced to below 1000 kg. In any case, Pakistan has already tested the Shaheen II which has an estimated range of 2000-2500 km. So what could have prompted Pakistan to test the Shaheen IA ‘as a response to Agni V’ at a time when it is faced with such severe internal and external problems and when it appears to want to move to a more rational relationship with India? What, indeed, is being signalled by Pakistan with its second missile test in less than a month?

Some of the answers might be found in the sequence of events in May 1998 when India conducted the nuclear tests at Pokhran. It will be remembered that Pakistan tested its nuclear weapons two weeks after the Indian tests; even at that time, it was clear that the Pakistani tests could not have been their first ‘hot’ tests as no country could have been so ready to test as to take only two weeks’ preparation to do so.

According to US nuclear scientists Thomas C. Reed and Danny B. Stillman in their book, ‘The Nuclear Express’, ‘... during Benazir Bhutto’s initial term in office, the People’s Republic of China tested Pakistan’s first A-bomb on their behalf, on May 26,1990, at the Lop Nur nuclear test site.’ The close nuclear weapon collaboration between Pakistan and China are described in some detail in their book (and in other open literature), the credibility of this narrative resting on the time spent by one of these scientists within the Chinese nuclear establishment, at the latter’s invitation. It is also fairly well known that China has supplied Pakistan with the M-9 and M-11 missiles — in fact, the Shaheen I is a ‘reverse-engineered M-9 missile originally supplied by China’, according to the US Natural Resources Defense Council.

This would suggest that the Pakistani nuclear weapon programme is a part of the Chinese one, with the Pakistani arsenal serving the purposes of both countries. If this is accepted, the Shaheen IA test could very well be explained as a signal from China rather than from Pakistan, as it makes little sense from the latter’s point of view. It would be natural for China to respond to the Agni V test, in a manner that makes clear to India that it would have a joint front to contend with in the event of any misadventure on her part or any ambition of balancing the Chinese nuclear supremacy in Asia. Using Pakistan thus would leave China with more elbow-room for managing its relations with India, which is not yet in focus in China’s attention, just as North Korea keeps Japan and South Korea occupied.

It is quite possible that such an interpretation might be dismissed as smacking of paranoia; yet it is difficult to explain the Pakistani test last April in any other way, given the timing and the probable capability and range of the missile tested. The more recent test of the Hatf III is less intriguing; it seems to reiterate Pakistan’s intention of envisaging the use of nuclear weapons on the battlefield. The implications of the Shaheen IA test, however, requires serious consideration by Delhi, which hopefully is underway.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2012 07:38

May be she wanted to dig into more of what Delhi's "serious actions" are for shaheen1a. No sheen left in her as she missed the bus.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 May 2012 09:21

Finally people seem to be coming around to the view that the Pakis are trying to amalgamate their forces with the Chinese ones or at the very least beginning to take their orders from China.

There won't be a two front war, it will be a single large front.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 May 2012 20:18

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 399252.ece ISRO chairman, K. Radhakrishnan, initially suggested that two small cryogenic steering engines, which swivel to maintain the rocket's orientation,

from this old link, we have small cryogenic steering engines.. that could be perfected for S3, and could be valuable for both DRDO and ISRO in testing them out. why not cryogenic steering engines for S3.?

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 24 May 2012 14:16

BALASORE: Before the din that was kicked off after test firing of the much-touted Intercontinental Range Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V was settled down, India is gearing up to go for the maiden development trial of Agni-VI missile within next two years notwithstanding international reactions and pressures.
Being developed by the DRDO, the new generation ICBM Agni-VI will have a strike range of 8,000 km to 10,000 km. A reliable source told ‘The Express’ that the drawing and designing work of the most advanced missile had been started.
“It will be a three-stage missile and taller than the Agni-V. The design is just taking shape and other sub systems are under development. If everything goes as per the programme, the missile will be ready by mid 2014,” said the source.
A scientist associated with the project said unlike the bulky Agni-III, the new generation Agni-VI missile will be more trendy and sleek, so that it can be easily carried to any place and deployed as and when required.
While the length of the missile would be reportedly around 40 meters as against Agni-V’s 17.5 meter, its diameter will be 1.1 meter, which is almost half of Agni-V. The missile’s launch weight would be around 55 tonne.
The Agni-VI is said to be the latest and most advanced version among the Agni series of missiles. It will have the capability to be launched from submarine and from land-based launchers. The DRDO is also working on integrating Agni-V with submarine.
The new missile will also carry more number of warheads than any other versions. While Agni-V can carry up to three nuclear warheads, sources said the next missile in the series can carry even up to 10 nuclear warheads, capable of hitting multiple targets simultaneously.
After the first test launching of 5,000 km range Agni-V missile while many had raised question about its ICBM capabilities, though it can hit the target anywhere in Asia, Africa and Europe except America, the development of Agni-VI would definitely be a befitting reply to them.
Apart from the Agni-VI’s ground version, the DRDO is also simultaneously working out for its underground variant. The submarine launched version of the missile will arm the Arihant class submarines of the Indian Navy. This missile with a strike range of 6,000 kilometers can carry a payload of one tonne.
“We are seriously contemplating to enhance the reach of our strategic missiles. The development of Agni-VI will be a step forward to accomplish the goal. With the present strength we are capable of developing the inter-continental ballistic missiles which can hit targets beyond the range of 10,000 km,” added the scientist.

would be a real funny missile..

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 24 May 2012 14:35

^^^ better use PSLV which :
is 44m tall
can carry 10 satellites/payloads
lift some 3t+ weight to leo height.

another thing i dont understand is how are we going to fit a 40m tall missile in a submarine? the express has really done bad job in reporting.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 May 2012 14:38

BrijeshB wrote: would be a real funny missile..

And Arihant is one funny Submarine capable of fitting a 130FT+ missile in its Silos.

.

Offcourse the express expects the Submarine to tilt vertically with its propellers facing the sea surface and missile gets launched through torpedo tubes- wow

and given 10 warheads, India has mastered Nano Nuclear technology to fit 10 of em within 1.1 Diameter

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 24 May 2012 15:00

Aditya_V wrote: Offcourse the express expects the Submarine to tilt vertically with its propellers facing the sea surface and missile gets launched through torpedo tubes- wow

no. they are going to open the submarine's from upper surface like a chest then erect the missile and push the red button.

koti · Post by **koti** » 24 May 2012 16:36

Too much of Transformers action I see.
My share: Maybe The Arihant ejects its propellers and fires its rocket motors.
You guys want to know about what happens to the crew?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 24 May 2012 18:49

^^^^^ Don't be ridiculous, you guys.................

It's obviously an inflatable missile.................... I've got one myself........................ (in my pants!).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2012 18:58

Please get back to topic. There are numeorus threads in GDF for mirth.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 May 2012 19:20

what would be inflatable reentry vehicle?

ref: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay ... Tech20.htm

some of the source references are interesting off the link

Kanishka · Post by **Kanishka** » 25 May 2012 16:12

Agni-V to be best missile of 21st century: DRDO chief Vijay Kumar Saraswat

DRDO Director General Vijay Kumar Saraswat today said Agni-V missile which took 30 years to be developed, was the best such thing in the 21st century.

Made my day.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 May 2012 17:41

Any one can list out all the best technology that has gone in AV on the left, and on the right, possible civlian use technology offshoots?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 25 May 2012 19:48

Added later:
SaiK garu, sorry, I will post in appropriate thread.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 May 2012 20:15

thanks venug. so, not a tech that is needed for this thread.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 31 May 2012 17:36

Interview with Gennady Yevstafiev, retired Lieutenant General of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_05_01/73456303/

Mr. Yevstafiev, what do you think about various reactions of the successful Agni-V Indian intercontinental?

The first test launch was basically successful. It is a great achievement of the Indian research technology and we have to admit that India has become one of the major missile countries in this world. And it was developed for a number of years. Initially the idea was to develop Agni-III into number IV and number V, but then number IV somehow has not been tested yet and now we have Agni-V. This is a formidable missile with the range of, some people say it is 5000 kilometers, but I’m afraid they are misleading the public opinion because there are people who believe that it has a potential of 8000 kilometers. And of course the range of throw is a classified information but nevertheless between 5000 and 8000, this makes it intercontinental strategic missile.

Of course we know the Indians have serious successes in navigational systems, in GPS systems that’s why as far as guidance is concerned that’s quite a reliable thing because the standard of Indian electronics and space technology evokes respect.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 31 May 2012 19:23

Huh!! Some points to note - and debate:

"And we have to give credit to Indians, they have mastered, which has taken more time in bigger countries like the United States and Russia, they right from the beginning have put the missile into a canister which is sealed and the missile could be kept for quite some time before it is being thrown out from a canister and after that it starts moving."

...But it is a certain warning to other countries around India, in the Indian Ocean and in other places that India has a potential and they have to deal with India very cautiously, they should not irritate India and it has Indian Ocean at her disposal because with this kind of missiles, they will have a number of them, they would control the whole area. And it happens, interestingly enough, it happens in times when Americans are trying to develop their assets and potential in Australia. And America is preparing for some sort of a showdown with China sooner or later. In this situation we have a new player, very important player who has got something to say.....

"But in a long run I think it would play well in containing the United States.

Yes, in the long run, especially if China and India would agree among themselves and would really divide the spheres of interests, it could be a very serious reminder to the United States that they have to behave in this area because they are not the only one country which possesses this kind of formidable arsenal of weapons."

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 31 May 2012 22:00

Read that article for his comments on Indo-Chinese relations, and how power balance is being orchestrated between the two.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Jun 2012 03:59

abhischekcc wrote:Read that article for his comments on Indo-Chinese relations, and how power balance is being orchestrated between the two.

Russia has its own game plan to balance India and China in Asia. It is doing it to counter the US version of the power balance in Asia which used Pakistan for too long (a mistake) and using China business lobby on the other side.
This policy has reached the limits now

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2012 04:45

This last part of Russia finally getting to play in Aisa is not understood by many folks.

Duchy of Moscovy->Tasrist Russia->Soviet Union->Russia

Finally Russia gets to play in Asia. It needed two world wars and death of Communism to get there.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Jun 2012 08:20

A/R jis

^ what (IEDology) Russia will export in your opinion?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Jun 2012 08:34

SaiK wrote:Any one can list out all the best technology that has gone in AV on the left, and on the right, possible civlian use technology offshoots?

System on Chip -> minitiarization of electronics, its impact is very broad

Sensor fusion -> any critical multi sensor based system benefits e.g., AF447 crashed due to wrong sensor input

Composites and their curing processes can be used in making,
huge wind turbine blades and rust proof
gas cylinders, stretchers made of composites are lighter allowing emergency vehicles, Casevac and other mobile applications involving trained personnel can use them

Heat shield material technology immensely helps fire fighters

Pyro-bolts technology in spring form can help mine protecting vehicles withstand blast shocks even better when used similar in concept to ERA; for all the technology that went into ejection seats, what if the whole passenger cabin of an MPV is treated as such? only the trigger is different, a land mine

speculative,
if the supposed chromium coating on missiles noses helps halving the drag then supersonic passenger jets can be back in business since it was the high fuel expenses that doomed their operations

liquid fuel rocket engines using loco's diesel can be used as ultra emergency brakes on trains for one time use, btw, couplers are getting better not allowing telescoping of wagons/coaches.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jun 2012 10:31

thanks to Manish Sharma for the book link:

It highlights what Arun was saying so long ago! It explains why the CEP needs to be so low. If you consider that they plan to go in for MARVs it becomes even more important

Managing India's Nuclear Forces

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 14 Jul 2012 21:17

hnair wrote:
kanson wrote:For RV, to those who is viewing from the position of point of impact it looks like a fireball trying to fall over them. AT ~3000 deg Celsius, it doesn't look anything other than fireball.
If this video is true, at 00:59 these RV's dont look anything like a fireball to the camera that seems rather close to the point of impact - more like a streak to me, saar.

I mean, a person who got knifed wont say "A point came towards my belly".

But my "comprehension compass" might be off today, (see? a twin MIRV warheads in one mijjile right there )

For your kind comprehension lessons only....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jul 2012 21:34

wow Kanson. This is first release of the functioning of the Fuze of the Agni RV!!!!

Its a surface burst. Can you scale the height?
Also did you see the cork screw maneuver (from the smoke trails) during the first stage flight? More like energy wasting or roll maneuver.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Jul 2012 10:14

Ramana sir,

We know, Agni I launches were always at depressed trajectory and that puts lot of stress on the vehicle. This Cork Screw/energy bleeding maneuver is more likely a novel way to do the same job.

It is very close to the surface, as it appears.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Jul 2012 01:07

One of the comments Dr. VKS had was that there will be no more improvements to A-1 however, there will be variants developed; this statement when seen in the context of energy bleeding maneuver thereby enabling control on minimum range can be also interpreted as groundwork for a target missile variant for the BMD Phase-2? with the two launch centres in Orissa closely spaced, minimum range comes into play, at least until the ABM interceptors can be launched from ships

Not clear whether the cork screw maneuver happens before hitting the sound barrier or after, in either case the sonic boom from the tip of the missile spreads like a parabola with any tracking camera close to the launch pad remaining in the shadow of that sonic boom, with sea on one side and no mountains on the other there will be no reveberations heard either

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Jul 2012 01:15

Has Agni missile re-entry footage ever been released before?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jul 2012 02:01

average case:
Time it leaves the source point to max height should take about >350 seconds. Let us assume the enemy ABM system detects the launch at 200th second.. that means they have 400 seconds to respond. But the ABM launch sequence itself should take about 200 seconds at the worst case to fire. Now they have all 200 seconds to counter.

1. At 400th second A1 should be hurling with (I think) RAM coated and least detection capability [composites ++].
2. At least approaching the target at >5-7Gs.

Destroying it even at 160second before doom, itself is extremely advanced technology achievement. Be it China or Pakis.