Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Kanson » 17 Sep 2013 08:15

partha wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/agni-v-is-not-only-about-range/1170084/0

Agni V is not only about range
Manu Pubby : Tue Sep 17 2013, 01:18 hrs



100 meters?! This is the first time I am coming across this figure. All reports till now have mentioned "precision of landing within few meters". I always translated "few meters" to "10 to 20 meters" in my mind. The figure of 100 is new. Any other source?


That's from Chander's interview. You have to read that completely to build your opinion.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Kanson » 17 Sep 2013 08:18

Acharya wrote:Is there any link to GSLV launch which was stopped
I don't have.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby SaiK » 17 Sep 2013 08:57

next line in the express article says A5 on conventional role relating to the 10-15 meter CEP. now, who in the sane world would dispatch A5 with conventional petals?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 17 Sep 2013 09:16

Great going A-5! - BK
Avinash Chander, DRDO chief and former head of ASL, Hyderabad, pronounced 2nd test firing of Agni-5 a success. He didn’t elaborate. But he must be particularly happy with several aspects. Firstly, with how well the second stage, 2 m dia composite motor functioned. Two, how nicely the GOC (guidance on chip) once again permitted the missile to attain 10 meter CEP. And most of all, as was pointed out by someone who noticed it in the first launch and which could possibly be seen when the video is released of the 2nd launch, the very rapid climb rate of the missile — characteristic of a submarine-launched missile or an anti-missile defence missile (!!!). It suggests a new propellant with higher specific impulse or, alternately, greater pressure generated in the chamber and, therefore, newer frame design. Going good, A-5!

Two points of note:
1. All kinds of CEP figure for all kinds of sources. If DRDO guys individually are willing to speak to the media on this then they should also address this in their official media briefing. I will go with DRDO chief figures.
2. Possibility of a newer propellant .. or alternately old propellant but a different mix .. will increase the range or payload.
Last edited by pankajs on 17 Sep 2013 09:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby partha » 17 Sep 2013 09:18

Kanson wrote:
That's from Chander's interview. You have to read that completely to build your opinion.

Yes sir. Even though I have read almost all interviews of Chander's, I somehow seem to have missed the 100 metres quote.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 17 Sep 2013 09:19

Thumbs up for A-5 - BK
Agni-5 IRBM is expected to be fired a second time tomorrow from Wheeler on a depressed trajectory into the Indian Ocean. There are some important issues to consider about this missile. While it’ll eventually be an all-composite (kevlar) system, the unit to be launched Sunday, Sept 15, retains an all-steel first stage including rocket motor, with the second stage, casing, motor and all being composite. While head of DRDO, Avinash Chander, has talked of canisterizing Agnis, including Agni-5, this second launch will be a straight-up launch to collect more data on various aspects of the missile system in flight and to be reassured that the very successful first launch in April-2012 was not a fluke! Moreover, while ASL, Hyderabad, has a lots of experience with the 1 metre dia missile system (on Agni-2 & 3), A-5 is 2 metre dia missile configured to reach 8,000 kms and carry 3-7 MIRVed warheads to extend its reach to ICBM range. Thumbs up for A-5!

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby partha » 17 Sep 2013 09:30

^
This is linked in the comments section of Shri BK's blog post -

FWIW, posting in full -

http://voiceofrussia.com/2012_05_01/73456303/

Interview with Gennady Yevstafiev, retired Lieutenant General of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service.

Mr. Yevstafiev, thank you so much for joining us now. So, the way I’m looking at various reactions of the successful Agni-V Indian intercontinental…

The first test launch was basically successful. It is a great achievement of the Indian research technology and we have to admit that India has become one of the major missile countries in this world. And it was developed for a number of years. Initially the idea was to develop Agni-III into number IV and number V, but then number IV somehow has not been tested yet and now we have Agni-V. This is a formidable missile with the range of, some people say it is 5000 kilometers, but I’m afraid they are misleading the public opinion because there are people who believe that it has a potential of 8000 kilometers. And of course the range of throw is a classified information but nevertheless between 5000 and 8000, this makes it intercontinental strategic missile.

The missile was coming under the Strategic Forces command. So, it is in a proper hands and it has been launched from a traditional place, there is a Wheeler Island where Defense Research and Development Organization of India has its sights. And it would take a number of test flights, not less than four or five, before a missile itself will become operational. Now it is a success but it is not yet operational and it will also take three or four years before they really develop what they say. They want to have at top of this missile MIRV system – Multiple Independently Targeted Vehicles with a number of, between two and ten, separately targeted nuclear bombs. And it will take some time, this technology is not yet ready.

And what we have of course it is a huge missile, it is almost 18 meters, and its diameter is 2 meters, it is really a robust and solid mechanism. It can carry about 1500 kilos of weight of load and it is enough to carry a vessel with a nuclear bomb or to have four or five MIRV bombs which could present a very serious difficulty for missile defense. And we have to give credit to Indians, they have mastered, which has taken more time in bigger countries like the United States and Russia, they right from the beginning have put the missile into a canister which is sealed and the missile could be kept for quite some time before it is being thrown out from a canister and after that it starts moving. Of course we know the Indians have serious successes in navigational systems, in GPS systems that’s why as far as guidance is concerned that’s quite a reliable thing because the standard of Indian electronics and space technology evokes respect.

So, having fired this missile Indians have stated by the firing test that they have joined the club of the great missile powers. Being the nuclear state they have declared that they have a very universal weapon for the future developments because of course they have their own threats perceptions and risks. And that’s why it has been done according to their view of developing situation. If you have a look on how far it can fly – it covers all China and it can come up to Europe. I wonder if these people in Europe, would they think about a threat from a third world country and what do they think about their missile defense system because it is much more developed than anything we have in Korea or in Iran for that matter.

Indian researcher Bahukutumbi Raman says that Agni-V is, like he put it, a Chinese centric missile. And he says that once it is put on operation, it can reach those parts of Eastern China on which its economic prosperity depends. Now, if that is really so? Are we going to see something like arms race between China and India?

The arms race between China and India is going on for the last 15-20 years. The range of Agni-V covers the whole of China, not only the areas on which the Chinese prosperity depends.

In terms of Indian perception of threats of course in the Indian General Headquarters, among the military China is the major threat and that’s why they have found now, say by 2015 they will have a reliable weapon to respond to Chinese threat. But on the other hand I think it will make the whole situation, as far as stability is concerned, more predictable and both sides, I would say, would be very cautious about playing with muscles.

But it is a certain warning to other countries around India, in the Indian Ocean and in other places that India has a potential and they have to deal with India very cautiously, they should not irritate India and it has Indian Ocean at her disposal because with this kind of missiles, they will have a number of them, they would control the whole area. And it happens, interestingly enough, it happens in times when Americans are trying to develop their assets and potential in Australia. And America is preparing for some sort of a showdown with China sooner or later. In this situation we have a new player, very important player who has got something to say.

And is the player going to take sides in that situation?

No, I don’t think India will take any sides in this because Indian policy is very mature. Indians know the border of their national interests and they won’t go a step over this border. They know the Chinese points of aim, so to say, which they should not step on. But in a long run I think it would play well in containing the United States.

Containing the United States?

Yes, in the long run, especially if China and India would agree among themselves and would really divide the spheres of interests, it could be a very serious reminder to the United States that they have to behave in this area because they are not the only one country which possesses this kind of formidable arsenal of weapons.

But interestingly enough India has close cooperation with the United States in nuclear matters. So, do you think that could be a leverage for the United States to apply some pressure to India?

No, I don’t think so. You know, the agreement with Bush Administration signed with India about scientific cooperation, but mainly in a nuclear field, in 2007 is of the particular interest to the United States because they know the Indians have a huge energy program which is based mostly on, due to rather poor energy resources, it is based mostly on the development of the nuclear industry. We benefit from this idea of Indians develop nuclear industry, Kudankulam which we are going to convert into something very spectacular.

But the Indian request is huge because Indians are planning within 20-25 years to build about 50 nuclear energy reactors and American industry which is not producing nuclear reactors now for the use in the United States, they have stopped producing them to the United States industry, they badly need some market for the advanced technologies in that. By the way, French are in the same boat, though of course French industry is of a much smaller size. That’s why the fight for Indian market in nuclear technology is basically a commercial fight for the share of Indian market. But the market is going to be so big that for the next 15 years there will be enough space for everybody to work on this market.

Mind you that Indians are very serious customers and they demand a lot of set benefits when they sign agreements and these set benefits would of course sponsor the Indian industry in developing their own technologies. And sooner or later they will produce more than 50% of what they need for themselves.

And now of course the final question based on your assessment. Just how good are the chances, the way you see, that eventually India and China might come to terms? Because now we’ve got more than half a century standing conflict between the two. And on the other hand there are so many forces which would be trying to prevent the two countries reaching any kind of agreement.

That’s true. And for example America very cautiously but they do have the share of really provoking the rift between the two countries, but very carefully. They don’t want to be caught red handed.

This is very difficult to predict but both countries are quite mature in their diplomacy and foreign policy. Both countries understand the level of their pretensions over the influence in this world and that’s why unless there is something very special, and very special in this case might be Pakistan which is an ally of China. But Indians are cautious with Pakistan, they don’t want to take upon themselves the burden of handling the affairs of this almost fail state and they really don’t mind the Chinese working there and having their share of influence in Pakistan.

But on the other hand there is no serious problem of fighting for resources up to now between China and India because China is trying to master the situation in the Pacific Ocean zone, and especially on those islands like Paracel or on other kinds of isles, and these are the priorities for the Chinese. They don’t show much their flag in the Indian Ocean. From time to time they come but just to show that there is the Chinese Fleet and so on. But they understand and they see that the Indian Ocean is the zone of influence of India, and they don’t provoke India for all kinds of responses.

The same thing with India, it is quite far from this Pacific Ocean area. It has a lot of things to do around the Indian Ocean and that’s why they are not a competitor for Chinese in the area. Whereas the United States, Japan, maybe even Indonesia, Vietnam, these countries are more anti-Chinese in a sense that they are afraid of Chinese, they don’t want to have the increased Chinese influence. And that brings me to some sort of a hope that understanding this Chinese and Indians, especially in times of possible Chinese-American tensions, they would keep quite good relationships among themselves.

Well, let’s hope so. Though there is the painful issue of Tibet.

Tibet of course is a point of disagreement but with the course, the way things develop, Indians will soon be deprived of their hope to have something in Tibet which would be more favourable to their heart then what is now. Chinese are moving there slowly but I would say resolutely and I don’t think Tibet is having some chance of independence.

And what about the new port which the Chinese are building in Pakistan?

Pakistan is a different thing. And Pakistan basically strategically is surviving on the strategic partner agreement with China. But times change. I believe that Pakistan in many respects is a fail state. And Indians do understand this and they don’t want to touch Pakistan in terms of military invasion.

But still, are the Chinese interested in getting the port and getting access into the Indian Ocean ultimately?

Not now. Time will come but now they have different priorities. I think they have a priority of China Sea oil resources and in the surrounding countries. In American opposition to this, they have the priority of Taiwan, deciding the future of Taiwan in some way which would be acceptable and they are very flexible on the way how to decide. So, for the next 15-29 China has enough to do in this area and if it is not going to provoke anybody on the other side of their borders, and they would prefer to have some sort of détente with India, this will work.

Mr. Yevstafiev thank you so much. Our guest speaker was Gennady Yevstafiev, retired Lieutenant General of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/2012_05_01/73456303/

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby partha » 17 Sep 2013 09:32

^
Gets the Agni 4 not yet tested part wrong.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Singha » 17 Sep 2013 09:42

imo A5 will not be the definitive indian ICBM, it is a stepping stone in tech to the K5 which will have to match the M51 specs to fit inside a normal and not overly long deltaV/Jin class tube.

Weight 52,000 kg
Length 12.0 m
Diameter 2.3 m

diameter needs to go up and length needs to come down. due to our location, we cannot even have the luxury of compromising on range because our SSBNs will need to deploy FARTHER from Cheen in middle of IOR vs our land based Agnis...while Rus/US had the luxury their SSBNs could infact sail CLOSER to middle of pacific or artic before firing.

a 12m long ICBM on land would greatly improve its mobility and signature hiding because thats about the length of a std 40ft container truck on our highways...a fake corrugated roof and walls, write the name of a shipping line on it and would be hard to make out easily.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 17 Sep 2013 10:17

My view is that K5 will be the most precious jewel in the crown no doubt about that but there will be other jewels primarily A5/A6.

We will have more land based ICBMs than Sub launched .. for the next 30 years.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby member_23455 » 17 Sep 2013 10:21

Kanson wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/agni-v-is-not-only-about-range/1170084/0

Agni V is not only about range
Manu Pubby : Tue Sep 17 2013, 01:18 hrs


100 meters?! This is the first time I am coming across this figure. All reports till now have mentioned "precision of landing within few meters". I always translated "few meters" to "10 to 20 meters" in my mind. The figure of 100 is new. Any other source?

That's from Chander's interview. You have to read that completely to build your opinion.


If the Journalist in question can be so naive as to think an Agni series missile has a conventional role, why would he not accept a CEP figure given to him on face value.

Exact numbers of such things are never what appears in the public.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby dinesha » 17 Sep 2013 12:24

Agni-5 stretches Indian ‘reach’
- ‘Inter-continental’ missile successfully tested over a 5500km trajectory

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130917/j ... jf_5cZmiSo
New Delhi, Sept. 16: India’s defence research chief has said that Sunday’s test firing of the Agni-5 missile has given the country transcontinental capability to deliver nuclear warheads.

“I have no hesitation in saying that we have ICBM (inter-continental ballistic missile) capability,” Avinash Chander, chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and scientific adviser to the defence minister, claimed at a briefing here today.

The Agni-5 was tested over its full range of 5,500km along a pre-set trajectory. The missile was launched from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast. This was the second test launch of the missile — the first was in April 2012 — and demonstrated “repeatability” and the ability to travel longer distances.

“Range is not a problem. We can even go up to 10,000km,” said Chander who himself headed the DRDO’s missile programme before taking over as the outfit’s head.“Our main focus now is to develop warheads”, he said.

The Agni-5 would be tested four more times before being inducted into the armed forces in two years. One or more of these tests would be with multiple warheads. The DRDO is working on a multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) that could engage separate targets from a single missile.

Chander said the government had not yet asked the DRDO to develop a 10,000km missile — possibly the Agni-6 — but “range is not a problem”. The Agni-5 was being made more accurate with the DRDO missile project working on reducing its circular error of probability (CEP) to within 15 metres.

Chander said there were plans to share technologies and frame policies to involve the corporate sector in defence production. Currently, he said, the armed forces required between 5000 to 10000 surface to air missiles (Sam) and 10,000 anti-tank missiles. “We need wider industry participation”, to meet the demand, he said.

India’s nuclear submarine, the Arihant, is going through “criticality” currently. The submarine, now in Vishakhapatnam, would head for sea trials shortly. The DRDO plans a test-firing of its K-15 submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM) from the Arihant in early 2014.

The cabinet had also recently approved the setting up of two semi-conductor fabrication facilities to manufacture missile components.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby dinesha » 17 Sep 2013 13:29

A-5′s ballistic apogee
http://bharatkarnad.com/2013/09/17/a-5s ... ic-apogee/
In the wake of the second Agni-5 launch, DRDO chief Avinash Chander confidently averred that India had an ICBM capability. On what basis did he assert this? Experts see it this way: the first stage fired for 90 seconds, getting the missile to 40 kms, the second stage separated at the 155 second stage, getting the A-5 to 110 kms altitude, and the third stage separated after firing for the next approx 135 seconds to reach the missile into space and outside of the earth’s pull, with the built-up momentum taking the A-5 to its ballistic apogee of around 600 kms, and achieving reentry speed of around 6-7 kms per second. Such an altitude was required to depress its 8,000 km lateral range to around 5,500 kms, and is commonly reached by ICBMs, such as the Russian Topol-M, flying depressed trajectories.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Singha » 17 Sep 2013 15:12

A5 size and shape matches closely the RS24 yars except the ogival nosecone used for MIRV payload. yars is listed @ 11,000km with 4 mirv. but I suppose we need to allow for more primitive indian N-devices being heavier until next round of tests -- sooner the better. hopefully Namo will come to power and press the green button that says "test"

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Austin » 17 Sep 2013 16:47

I think we traded of our ability to test Nukes for our friendly MMS noclear deal and getting the NSG exception .... no even NAMO will be constrained by MMS noclear deal.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Pratyush » 17 Sep 2013 16:49

The Nuke deal has an exception for India. If it needs to conduct a future test. This is some thing that caused major heart burn to the NPA's of the duplicity.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2013 20:52

Kanson wrote:
partha wrote:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/agni-v-is-not-only-about-range/1170084/0

quote Agni V is not only about range
Manu Pubby : Tue Sep 17 2013, 01:18 hrs /quote


100 meters?! This is the first time I am coming across this figure. All reports till now have mentioned "precision of landing within few meters". I always translated "few meters" to "10 to 20 meters" in my mind. The figure of 100 is new. Any other source?


That's from Chander's interview. You have to read that completely to build your opinion.



Sorry Kanson or anyone. Which interview and what exactly did he say?

Post AV-1 test the accuracy quoted was a few meters not tens of meters.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2013 21:07

Austin wrote:I think we traded of our ability to test Nukes for our friendly MMS noclear deal and getting the NSG exception .... no even NAMO will be constrained by MMS noclear deal.



"Our leaders who don't obey even Muncipal Corporation rules wont be constrained by any deal if needed. It is for the dealmeakers to ensure that situation does not rise."


There is no mention of any test restriction. US will have to take back the radioactive contaminated reactor pressure vessels if they want to enforce Hydebound act..

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 18 Sep 2013 01:38

PTI in Firstpost:

http://www.firstpost.com/india/after-ag ... 12807.html

New Delhi: Inter-continental ballistic missile Agni-5, which can cover entire China and reach Europe with its range of 5,000 km, will be ready for induction in the armed forces in two years, amid assertion by DRDO that it can produce a weapon system with a range of 10,000 km.

Addressing a press conference on a seminar to be held on Tuesday, DRDO chief Avinash Chander said all the ballistic missiles in country’s arsenal would be canistered to reduce the reaction time, in case of a nuclear attack.

He said by the end of this year or the beginning of the next year, the country’s first indigenously-developed nuclear submarine INS Arihant would be carrying out weapon trials as part of its tests towards its induction in the Navy.


Agni-% missile. Image courtesy PIB

“Yes… actually range is least problematic part of the missile. We have full capability to go to any range. If we need a particular range, we can achieve that in two or two-and-a-half years. The issue today is more with the accuracy of the missiles,” Chander said.

The DRDO chief was asked if the premier research organisation would be able to provide 10,000 km range missiles if government gives a go ahead to it.

Commenting on the Agni-5 missile, which was successfully testfired on Sunday for the second time, he said, “The missile would be ready for induction in armed forces in the next couple of years after three to four more successful test-firings from canisters.”
He said the Agni-5 along with all other ballistic missiles would be canistered which will help in reducing the response time in case of a nuclear attack.

“It (the response time) will be in order of few minutes from stop to launch and it will be very short. I cannot give you the exact time,” Chander said.

India has a ‘no-first use’ policy for nuclear weapons which means that it needs to have a strong and quick response capability to reply in case of a strike by an adversary.

Asked if there was a need for having missiles with higher ranges than the Agni-5, Chander said, “As on date, we don’t think we need those ranges but if needed, it can be done.”

On why was India now willing to categorise the Agni-5 as an ICBM whereas earlier it was hesitant to do so, the DRDO chief said world-over missiles with ranges of 5,000 to 5,500 km were termed as ICBMs.

“I do not see why we should be diffident about our strengths and capabilities. Agni-5 is able to go trans-continental and is capable to go these ranges. It is definitely an ICBM. I don’t think there is any negative or positive connotation of this term,”
he said.

Asked if there were any problems with the telemetry and systems of the Agni-5 before its Sunday trial, he said there were issues regarding this but the organisation went ahead with the test as they were not associated with the performance of the weapon system.

On INS Arihant’s weapon firing trials including the 700-km K-15 Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile, Chander said it is ready for integration with the indigenous submarine and there no issues on it.

Talking about the weapon and the sea trials of Arihant, whose nuclear reactor was activated recently, the DRDO chief said, “They have a full plan of various activities which will include firing of missiles and validation of other systems on board it.

“Arihant has achieved criticality. It is going through of cycle of trials and that is on. That has to be done in a certain time-line and we are on time.”

Reacting to queries, Chander said there was no programme such as Agni-6 at the moment.

On the 1,500 km range Nirbhay cruise missile, he said the second test-firing of the weapon system would be conducted by the end of this year.

Chander said a number of changes have been made in DRDO structure as seven clusters have been created with primary objective of enhancing efficiency and performance of the laboratories while reducing the delays in the projects.

He said the trials of the Arjun MkII tank programme were going on and 79 modifications have been validated.

PTI


So next few tests should be of the cannister launch.
The basic vehicle is now qualified to max range.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2013 02:57

yes.. once inside the canister, it is hard to tell if it can reach 5K kms or miles.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Rudradev » 18 Sep 2013 03:41

Bharat Karnad says:

A-5 is 2 metre dia missile configured to reach 8,000 kms and carry 3-7 MIRVed warheads to extend its reach to ICBM range.


Per this source: Image

Payload of A-5 is 1,360 kg.

Assuming accuracy for both these sources, "3 to 7 warheads" could weigh between ~195 kg and ~450 kg each. The warheads proper will weigh a little less in each case probably, since MIRV means they will need some sort of guidance and propulsion weight along with primary and secondary.

How much yield would you get from a 450 kg warhead of ~0.66m diameter (3-MIRV configuration) or a 195 kg warhead of ~0.28m diameter (7-MIRV configuration)? Impossible to say, of course. But while we're speculating, consider the W88. According to Wiki:

a W88 warhead manages to yield up 475 kt with a physics package 68.9 in (1.75 m) long, with a maximum diameter of 21.8 in (0.55 m), and weighing probably less than 800 lb (360 kg).


Now granted that we're making some fairly wild guesses, I think those weight and dimensions parameters fall roughly in the family of the warheads we plan to MIRV the Agni-5 with. We don't know enough to conclude anything, of course. We don't even know what the weight and diameter would be for the 45kT (claimed maximum yield 200kT) S1 when weaponized. If you look at the picture of S1:

Image

It looks about that size too, doesn't it? Physics package about 2m, the height of a tall man (see the men in the picture for comparison, keeping in mind a head is about 1/7 the proportion of a whole human body.)

W88 was a sophisticated warhead with a peanut shaped design (prolate primary, spherical secondary.) It took the Americans a lot of testing and probably a lot more computer simulation to get a physics package worth 475kT into a warhead that small. Since we have only the experience of Pokhran II to benefit from, it doesn't seem likely that we would have something equally powerful to deploy in MIRV with the A-5. 200kT, however, seems well within the realm of possibility, looking at the relative sizes/weights of S1 vs W88.

Therefore: either it is a fact that India can MIRV 5-7 X 200kT (at least) warheads onto an ICBM capable of reaching anywhere in China... or the DRDO/ISRO have gone to a whole lot of trouble to convince China of such a capacity, by designing an ICBM that is capable of delivering 5-7 MIRVed warheads of that size, that weight, and potentially that yield as well. I don't think China will feel safe enough to act on the possibility that we're bluffing. This is another way in which the A-5 tests have reinforced our deterrence.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 18 Sep 2013 04:07

I would rather wait for the info for AV-1 &-2 tests of the height at which the fuze was functioned.
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Also one more reason I asked in above post about the accuracy statement from the DRDO.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby member_27444 » 18 Sep 2013 04:07

Ramana ji
Isn't it called HydeNseek

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2013 06:56

the A5 does not seem to have vented interstage gap seen in the diagram above.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Sep 2013 09:03

Rudradev ji, the pic gives wrong payload for Agni 3. It's payload is 2,500 kilograms not 1500.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2013 09:04

i expect when multihoming tests begins, the shroud design will look different, a lot different than what we see now.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby kit » 18 Sep 2013 12:18

maybe time to test some new warhead designs .. somewhere else !

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Lilo » 18 Sep 2013 12:31

As to overcome ABM, energy bleeding maneuvers by warheads during atmospheric reentry and terminal coasting are a necessity rather than a luxury - a missile with nominal range of 8000 km must have an undeclared pure ballistic range of 10,000 km. As should a missile with a nominal range of 5500 Km must have a ballistic range of 8000Km . With throw weight being same in both cases.Also throwweight has to be unusually "heavy" to incorporate an extensive decoy system.

All the more reason to proceed ahead with A-6. A-6 is the one money has to be spent to induct in large numbers. A-5 is a stopgap just for deterring cheen birathers - inefficient deterrence when everyone in the world (including cheen) can be deterred using A-6 ranged ones.

Remember Arap and the Camel story. And circumference of earth is 40,000 KM

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 18 Sep 2013 14:22

Lilo wrote:All the more reason to proceed ahead with A-6.

Saar what is in the name .. A5 was called A3++ .. and A4 was called A2++ ... all maya wonlee ..

The real marker that should always be kept in mind is that the mass of A5 is 50,000 kg. All Canister, underground silos, Road-TEL, Rail-TEL, support system will be built to launch a missile of 50,000 kg. That is the real deal. The missile engine, avionics, propellent will keep improving i.e getting more efficient and lighter/smaller over time. Now if the mass of the missile is kept constant at 50,000 kg what will that do to the range and the payload?

As I have said .. keep the missile lauch mass at 50,000 kg in mind .. the rest including the name is all maya. In the long run .. say 10-15 years expect a TridentII-D5 kind of performance.

Trident II D-5
When compared to C4, for the D5 to achieve the longer range with its larger, heavier payload, improvements in rocket motor performance would be required plus reductions in the weight of the missile's components. To improve rocket motor performance, there was a solid-propellant change. The C4 propellent carried the name of XLDB-70, translated to, cross-link double-base70 percent solid fuels. The solids consisted of HMX (His Majesty's Explosive), aluminum, and ammonium perchlorate. The binder of these solids was Polyglycol Adipate (PGA), Nitrocellulose (NC), Nitroglycerine (NO), and Hexadiisocryanate (HDI). This propellant could have been called PGA/NG, when we consider that D5 propellant is called Polythylene Glycol (PEG)/NG. D5 is called this because the major innovation was the usage of PEG in place of the PGA in the binder. It was still a cross-link, double-base propellant. The use of PEG made the mixture more flexible, more rheologic than the C4 mixture with PGA. Thus, the D5 mixture being more flexible, an increase could be made in the amount of solid fuels; increased to 75 percent solids resulting in improved performance. Thus, D5 propellant's is PEG/NG75. The Joint Venture (the propulsion subcontractors, Hercules and Thiokol) have given a trade name to the propellant NEPE-75.

The motor case material on the D5's first stage and second stage became graphite/epoxy versus the Kevlar epoxy of C4, an inert weight saver. The TS motor was to be Kevlar epoxy but, midway through the development program (1988), it was changed to graphite/epoxy. The change was a range gainer (reduced inert weight) plus eliminated any electrical static potential associated with Kevlar and graphite. There was also a change in all D5 rocket motor nozzles' throat material from segmented rings of pyrolytic graphite in the entrance and throat of the C4 nozzle to a one-piece integral throat and entrance (ITE) of carbon-carbon on D5. This change was for reliability purposes.

The Equipment Section [ES] houses the major guidance and flight control electronics packages. The TS rocket motor and its TVC system are mounted to an eject cylinder at the center of the ES and extends forward of the ES. A small TS eject motor is recessed in a cavity on the TS motor forward dome. When the TS motor is expended, the eject motor pushes the TS motor aft, out of the ES to effect TS separation. The Equipment Section was integrated with the adapter section, using graphite/epoxy versus the aluminum composite structures on C4. This was a weight saver, providing a range gainer. The IS did not change, conventional aluminum. The ES mounting for the third stage rocket motor is similar for both the C4 and D5 with an explosive zip tube used for separation, and the third stage motor has a similar eject rocket motor on the forward end of the rocket motor.


Added later: I know I am comparing a SLBM with a land launched ICBM but that is just to give you an idea what we can expect out of a 50t missile. Any development done under A5 will not cause alarm as it has already been declared an ICBM and the Chinese have already claimed its range to be 8K. Also, I believe development carried in the name of fielding a more efficient A5 will not need additional approval may be just extra budget approvals. I may be wrong.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby member_24146 » 18 Sep 2013 17:27

Agni-V before 2nd test, Wheeler Island

Source: NDTV

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Kanson » 18 Sep 2013 18:36

ramana wrote:Sorry Kanson or anyone. Which interview and what exactly did he say?


Yes, lets have the full transcript or with direct quotes.

BTW

Missile can be launched in minutes after canister-launch capability’

Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), Agni-V, which was successfully test-fired for its full range of 5,000 km on Sunday, would be a “stop-and-launch” road mobile system that could be fired within minutes once endowed with a canister-thrust capability.

Talking to The Hindu during the recent mission at Wheeler Island, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister and Director General, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Avinash Chander said that nobody would be able to intercept the “state-of-the-art” missile once launched. It would be difficult to spot, track and prevent. “That is the strength,” he added

Describing the three-stage, solid fuelled Agni-V as a totally “fire-and-forget system”, he said the canister-based missile when delivered to the user would be fully charged and provides high operational flexibility. “It will be a highly mobile system and makes it invulnerable,” the DRDO chief said. One of the important features of Agni-V was that it could use satellite-based navigation systems, including GPS, Glonass and India’s Regional Navigational Satellite System (IRNSS). “It can’t be jammed easily since it is from deep inside,” he added.

He said that Agni V was an ICBM and would provide strategic depth. “In that sense, it becomes a true deterrent.”

Mr. Chander said India became totally self-sufficient in long range missile systems with the second successive test-firing of Agni-V. He said that two consecutive tests of this class of weapons were generally considered sufficient to certify the design and further tests would be generally needed for user training. After a canister-based launch in the coming months and few more trials, it would be inducted by 2015. Although the capability existed to extend the range, there was no need as the 5,000-km plus Agni V was adequate to meet the present threat perception.

Replying to a question, he said, “There is no plan to carry MIRVs on Agni V.” It was a separate technology and would be taken up on another vehicle. It was still in technology development stage, he added.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 139186.ece

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 18 Sep 2013 19:40

OK Here is one ref

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/357 ... rs-up.html

.....
Asked about future tests of 5,000-km range Agni V missile, Chander said at least three to four additional successful flight tests was needed before the missile is inducted into the service.

The next launch of Agni V will be from a “canister” that reduces reaction time for missile launch. At present, only the under-water missile and cruise missile Brahmos are launched from canisters.

Chandra said Agni V had an accuracy in the range of 100 metres but scientists were working to improve the accuracy of long range missile within 10-15 metres. This means, even if the missile is fired from a distance of 2000-3000 km, it should hit within 15 metres of the target.

He said the DRDO was capable of developing missiles with 10,000-km range if there was a need. But there is no Agni VI programme at the moment.

...


If its curretn accuracy is 100m at full range and they still have to bring it to 10-15m then its a long way off.
Both the numbers 100m and 10-15m tell their own story of the payload capability.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Sagar G » 18 Sep 2013 19:53

Yes they do and that's why we need to test more but have to wait for the right time.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby kit » 18 Sep 2013 21:42

I think it is better to take off the GPS in the list of navigational signals .. is the system able to override inaccuracies ? ..and wont it be vulnerable for jamming signals from GPS satellites themselves ? As i know the next generation of American GPS satellites coming up can 'blind' targeted receiver .. and the Agni has a GPS specific receiver ?

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby pankajs » 18 Sep 2013 22:02

Advanced Navigation System for Aircraft Applications {RINS}
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... /view/4254
G. Satheesh Reddy, V.K. Saraswat

Summary
Various forms of navigation are present in today’s world, leading from satellite based navigation to several archaic forms of navigation like star gazing. Now, lots of technologies are available to achieve this but with certain limitations. For example, FOG based navigation provides accuracy with in 0.10-100 range which is not sufficient for various military applications. Therefore, there is a need to design a system which will have better accuracy and thus requires development of ring laser gyro-based inertial systems. This paper concentrates on the aided navigation system based on ring laser gyro of 0.01 deg/hr class and GPS - GLONASS to further enhance the capability of system in terms of accuracy. The usage of such systems not only provides accurate results momentarily but it also persists for longer duration with the aid of GPS - GLONASS for applications like aircraft, ship and long range missiles. The system provides accuracy of the level of 1 Nm/hr in pure navigation and 30 m with the aid of GPS - GLONASS. Apart from this, the availability of gyro-compass and baro-inertial algorithms further enhances the system capabilities and made them self dependent to the major extent.

Conclusion
The performance of the proposed integrated navigation solution was demonstrated to be very competitive with the imported navigation system. The results have been examined to verify the suitability and satisfactory performance of the proposed solution even with degraded/multipath or totally denied GPS for long durations. Various van-trial and aircraft sorties were carried out to demonstrate the performance of RINS.
The efforts have resulted in building an indigenous state-of-the-art, ready to integrate aided inertial navigation system to the various needs of the Defence forces of India.
In the aftermath, the navigation systems of Indian origin will further have enhanced features like vision aided navigation, inclinometers, GAGAN, and IRNSS aided high precision.
Lots of info and some photos inside.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby ramana » 19 Sep 2013 01:41

Fly on the wall or keedas in carpet say it was in single digit meters.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2013 07:54

khan is always lurking in the background , if not being disruptive atleast testing throughly how to leave us holding the can when h-hour comes.

takeaway - DO NOT depend on gps or even glonass for any strategic systems ever. khan and russia themselves use high precision INS and star sensors and so must we even if accuracy is down to 200m CEP. and if there is a conflict between "nice to have" gps/glonass inputs and the INS, the INS must always be given precedence.

Khan is never going to facilitate a indian strike on TSP or Cheen...whether its 1st or 2nd. the moment their IR sats detect the launch plumes, I can guarantee the GPS sats in our orbital planes will either "blink" or suddenly shift their position info by a few KMS.

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 Sep 2013 10:01

UK is still out of range. Well may be when we come up with A6 :wink:

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby krishnan » 19 Sep 2013 11:04

Image

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Re: Agni-V ICBM: New capabilities, technologies, strategies

Postby kit » 19 Sep 2013 12:36

Singha wrote:khan is always lurking in the background , if not being disruptive atleast testing throughly how to leave us holding the can when h-hour comes.

takeaway - DO NOT depend on gps or even glonass for any strategic systems ever. khan and russia themselves use high precision INS and star sensors and so must we even if accuracy is down to 200m CEP. and if there is a conflict between "nice to have" gps/glonass inputs and the INS, the INS must always be given precedence.

Khan is never going to facilitate a indian strike on TSP or Cheen...whether its 1st or 2nd. the moment their IR sats detect the launch plumes, I can guarantee the GPS sats in our orbital planes will either "blink" or suddenly shift their position info by a few KMS.


ts not just error signal with the new GPS satellite ., it can do something like a hack in/ command sort of signal with a GPS receiver !

probably the last thing you will want on a strategic system is a GPS chip ! now with the advent of the next generation GPS satellite .. welcome to new navigation !


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