Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

member_22539
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_22539 » 10 Oct 2015 14:27

Thakur_B wrote:^^ If only Philip ji's posts were comparable to Brar ji's posts :)


Brar, though knowledgeable of and somewhat favorable to khan products, does not diss indigenous efforts or tout khan products like its the next best thing since dosa. This is what a particular someone needs to emulate. No one is criticizing his enthusiasm for ruski products, but a little bit of objectivity (calling out a piece of crap for what it is) and a little more respect and support for Indian products would go a long way in diffusing the hostility he faces.

The only complaint I have for Brar's posts are that they are most of the time too long, otherwise they are some of the best in the forum, regularly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya G » 10 Oct 2015 14:28

Before the C-17s came in, it seemed that the IL-76's retirement was imminent and the whole thing is going to be a fiasco like AJT acquisition. With C-17s inducted, ironically IL-76s life in the air force is extended on account of lower utilization. Similar to how Avros have soldiered on so long despite the Do-228s and An-32s coming online since late 80s and early 90s.

So the IL-76, IL-78 and A-50 will remain relevant to us for the foreseeable future. Infact 2 new build A-50s are on the way as well.

With C-17s no longer available, it makes sense to buy new IL-76 which come with PS-90 engines, if we require more transports at all.

Alternatively explore augmenting the transport fleet with A-330 MRTTs, C-295s and the mythical MTA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Oct 2015 15:15

In IAF nothing retires every things just fades away after many decades of service much beyond even their designer would have imagined , Canberra , Mig-21 anybody ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 10 Oct 2015 15:59

With C-17s no longer available, it makes sense to buy new IL-76 which come with PS-90 engines, if we require more transports at all.


The IAF has requested budget for upgrading current IL-76s that are there in their inventory. No mention of IL-476 so far. Based on this information I do not see India getting the 476.

The only noise I see WRT the 476 is trying to rope in China and Iran (that plans on spending $21 billion with the Russians).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 10 Oct 2015 20:17

WHOA!! :shock: From Yusuf of DFI via teetar
India To Ink World's Largest Microlight Aircraft Deal With Slovenian Firm
Image
NEW DELHI, OCT.10, 2015: India is all set to create aviation history on Oct.12, 2015 when it signs what is probably the world's largest single deal for microlight aircraft.

India's armed forces will get 194 microlight aircraft from Slovenian company Pipistrel Aircraft, for use by its National Cadet Corps (NCC), Air Force and Navy. The deal is worth Rs.130 crore ($20 million), government and industry sources told Arming India.

"The microlight aircraft chosen for purchase is the Pipistrel Aircraft's Virus SW80," a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official said. "It is tentatively christened the 'Garuda' in the Indian service," he said.

The Indian government nod for buying the microlight aircraft came in July 2015 at the Defense Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting chaired by Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar.

At that meeting, the DAC had given the final approval for the 194-plane deal, but had broken up the entire contract into two. The first part of the contract would take care of the National Cadet Corps (NCC) requirement - pending for nearly 10 years now - of 110 microlight for training air wing cadets. The second part of the deal is for supplying 84 of these microlight aircraft to the IAF and the Indian Navy. Under the second part of the deal, IAF would get 72 and Navy 12 microlights. The two armed forces would use these microlight for adventure sport activities, officials said.

The IAF is the lead agency to evaluate, select and buy these 194 planes and the DAC nod came for staggering the microlight deliveries by Pipistrel, the original equipment manufacturer.

According to Pipistrel Aircraft's website, the Virus SW 80/100 is the "most economic high speed cruiser and definitely the fastest high-wing plane" in its category.

"Made from state-of-the-art composite materials, it is lightweight and features an unprecedented useful payload of more than 300 kg (660 lbs). Virus SW 80/100 is able to operate at all elevations from sea-level up to 15,000 feet, take-off and land from short runways and over obstacles thanks to unique air-brakes, is the quietest light aircraft and has one of the lowest operating costs in its category," the website claimed.

The possibilities are immense on the Virus SW80. It can fly at over 260 kilometers per hour (140 knots), easily overfly terrain higher than 4500 meters (15,000 feet) and cover distances of over 1500 kilometers (800 nautical miles).

Pipistrel Aircraft said the Virus SW 80/100 is ideal for high speed cross-country flying, surveillance missions, ab-initio, advanced and extreme maneuver training, aerial photography and high-mountain operations. It has a glide ratio of 17:1 and can glide further in case of emergency than most planes.

Upon special request, the 10.71-meter Virus SW80/100 can be adapted for special missions, including visual/IR camera gimbals, geographical surveys, trans-oceanic-range flights and more.

More than 100 units of Virus SW80 have already been sold world-wide to nations like Thailand, Ecuador and Canada, and it has won the NASA challenge twice, the company claimed. Since the victories at PAV challenge 2007 and NASA GAT centennial challenge 2008, the Virus SW 80/100 has been further refined and optimized for even better performance.

The aircraft can be equipped by either the Rotax 912 UL2 (80 horse power) or 912 ULS (100 horse power) power-plants and a large variety of avionics options. The new 80 HP Virus SW 80/100 cruises at 246 kilometers per hour (133 knots), burning less than 13.6 liters per hour (3.6 gallons per hour). At 75 per cent cruise-power-setting the 100 HP version speeds over the skies at 273 kilometers per hour (147 knots). The ASTM-LSA version, equipped with the fixed pitch propeller cruises at 119 kts, burning 14.0 liters per hour (3.7 gallon per hour).

The company also claimed the aircraft has a turbulence penetration speed (green arc) of 250 kilometers per hour (135 knots) and the VNE of 302 kilometers per hour (163 knots). "The cockpit remains quiet and comfortable throughout the flight! The Virus SW 80/100 has the largest flight safety margins in its category and can be equipped with the total rescue system, deployable even at maximum speeds and close to the terrain."

The aircraft has an exclusive Kevlar-reinforced safety cockpit with luxurious leather interior. The instrument panel is made of carbon fiber with visible-structure and can accommodate a wide selection of modern avionics, including a full glass-cockpit IFR suite with dual-axis GPS-driven autopilot and electric constant-speed propeller control.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Oct 2015 20:35

why couldnt some private player in India develop a microlite ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 10 Oct 2015 21:15

$20 million to spare for.......

The two armed forces would use these microlight for adventure sport activities, officials said.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 00:06

If overall deal is $20 Mn. That's like 130 PGMs at $150K each. Not so expensive.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 11 Oct 2015 01:42

Austin wrote:why couldnt some private player in India develop a microlite ?


Good question. Indigenization starts from small "simpler" things. These sort of opportunities are there but somehow they keep getting imported wholesale.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby A Sharma » 11 Oct 2015 02:25

why not HANSA-3 from NAL?

Link

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2015 05:50

The performance specs of the Pipistrel Virus are spectacular. I doubt if the Hansa or a hundred other aircraft/microlight types can come anywhere near.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 11 Oct 2015 07:31

I think that's the premise of a lot of arguments for imports. While yes this one microlite is the best one out there and domestic one wouldn't be able to match it on first try, it would have been a good opportunity to rope in the private sector for doing so since it is one of the more "simpler" tech for them to build their R&D around. Have competitive designs (partially funded by GoI and the IAF/IN) submitted by multiple private enterprises with original designs (not one of those JV to screwdrivergiri) and select two (or more) designs to prototype and flight trials. Finally, select the best one from technical and costs pov and put it into production. In this way, a whole infrastructure in the private sector would be created much like LCA program did to the DRDO/HAL public sector along with Tier-2/3 private suppliers. Yes, it will take time and some imports may be necessary in the short run, but India needs to plan for the long haul where it gets out of the cycle of import rut even for the most basic of things.
Last edited by srai on 11 Oct 2015 08:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29172 » 11 Oct 2015 07:34

Isn't Mahindra into building light planes/private planes like these? Why waste money on Slovenian firm when there is a domestic alternative?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2015 07:45

Is the new item true in the first place? Unknown news outlet. News not reported anywhere else. Remember that even "known" news media report trash like "Arup Raha wants Scorpion trainers"

The item reads suspiciously like a paid advertorial

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2015 07:49

From 2 weeks ago

The inauguration of Sinus motorglider in India
We are pleased to announce that the third aircraft joined Pipistrel's fleet flying over the Indian skies - a Sinus 912 was shipped to Flight Lab. of Indian Institute of Technology, Kanpur where it was received with a special inauguration and good-luck ritual.

The inaugration of our both SINUS 912 motor gliders was performed on 4th
January, 2009 by Head of the Department of Aerospace Engineering. The
inaugration was attended by large number of students, staff and faculty
members. There was dense fog on that day, so unfortunately a test flight could not be performed becuase of the low visibility.


Also see
http://www.pipistrel.si/dealers/india
We are looking for a distributor in India!
Would you like to become a Pipistrel distributor for your country?


The news is fake

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby gnair » 12 Oct 2015 04:49

Pipistrel is a known entity in Europe and they've been around. The BSF should get hold of these land anywhere-operate anywhere, where there is a 1,200 ft. dirt strip. And better still you don't need LL-100 AvGas or any aviation fuel to fly it. Regular vehicle gas would do just fine.
Not surprised they are looking for an agent in India. There are quite a few out there in the General Aviation/ light- experimental category (2 seats) who are looking for agents...but you need to hold inventory to qualify, not just brochures to pass around.
They arrive at your door step in 20 ft. shipping containers, semi-assembled and can be put together by 3 trained car mechanics that can read specs. within a week and made to fly.
Their latest product that's got all the rave...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tbgs8lxNVs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 12 Oct 2015 05:47


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 12 Oct 2015 09:35

Gunther.I don't need a lesson in patriotism from you.Kindly keep your personal remarks up your nether end.Debate objectively as I do.Give your alternative ideas without demeaning yourself by your puerile language and asinine insinuations.I try and be as pragmatic as poss. As far as transports are concerned,the C-17 is no longer in production,while the Russian IL-76MD/90s,upgraded ,much better improved version of the original IL-76 manufactured in Uzbek is available in new series prod. Surely an option worth examining by the IAfF?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kmkraoind » 12 Oct 2015 19:55

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD
MoD signs a contract for procurement of 194 Microlights manufactured in Slovenia for Rs 105.5 Crore. File Pic


Image
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 12 Oct 2015 20:02

kmkraoind wrote:
Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD
MoD signs a contract for procurement of 194 Microlights manufactured in Slovenia for Rs 105.5 Crore. File Pic




Wow. It's true then
https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 5996758016

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2015 20:40

The Pipistrels are the very best when it comes to powered gliders and microlights. I can say this from personal experience. But my desi dil wanted 194 Hansa-3s manufactured at Taneja.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2015 20:54

Philip, Use the report function and not get into a personal match.

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2015 21:06

shiv wrote:Also see
http://www.pipistrel.si/dealers/india
We are looking for a distributor in India!
Would you like to become a Pipistrel distributor for your country?


Raj Hamsa ultralights or Taneja will be probable candidates.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ManjaM » 12 Oct 2015 21:32

Austin wrote:why couldnt some private player in India develop a microlite ?

RajHamsa(now Agni Aerosports) has the X-Air S, F and H series that are in the microlight category.
Additionally, Zenith Aircrafts now sells their CH750 through their dealer in Bengaluru. Assembled in Bengaluru as well.
Apart from defense, there is only a minscule market for private aviation in India. Any new entrant selling general aviation aircrafts of any kind will have to base his revenues almost entirely on exports and the worldwide general aviation market itself is on a slow decline with fewer and fewer private pilots getting licenced every year.
Without a significant push from government to make airfields, hangars, training and fuel available to general aviation, there is really not much incentive to invest in designing and manufacturing an airplane in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karthik S » 12 Oct 2015 21:38

pandyan wrote:Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD 1h1 hour ago

Contract signed for procurement of 194 Microlights at a cost of Rs 105.5 crore.
72 of these will be for IAF, 110 - NCC, 12- Navy.


What's NCC? National Cadet Corps?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ManjaM » 12 Oct 2015 21:50

Karan M wrote:If overall deal is $20 Mn. That's like 130 PGMs at $150K each. Not so expensive.


Karan, Thats correct. This is a good price for 194 new airplanes. The new Rotax 912's have a much improved TBO than the earlier 912s too, further reducing maintenance costs over the lifetime. Not a bad deal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2015 22:30

The NCC waited ten years for this deal.

Just think of what that means. There was firm requirement but no GOI /Private enterprise thought fit to develop or license mfg such a micro-light aircraft in those ten years.

They could have spiraled off and supplied the flying clubs, BSF, state police forces etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 12 Oct 2015 22:43

This order is definitely a missed opportunity. I guess they did not realize the size of the impending order. I like the purchase, because I love the Pipistrels.

But in future, is it worth coming up with desi microlights? They will not be much cheaper even if they are built in India. However, it may be a good place to export from given our exchange rates. A few years back quite a few ailing European microlight companies moved their production to US, just because the Euro exchange rates were making the planes too expensive in their primary markets.

Given the state-of-art, there is no requirement to spend any time or money to develop a new design. There are quite a few good designs from companies facing bankruptcy floating around. Just buy one of the designs, and move the production line to India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JE Menon » 12 Oct 2015 22:57

^^One of our companies should just buy the Slovenian firm.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 Oct 2015 23:37

And ruin it!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prasad » 12 Oct 2015 23:51

Come on ramana. We're buying up steel plants and JLR, we can't run a microlight company? Besides, even if we bought it, how much of a cost reduction would we see in an Indian production to ensure that the company gets enough export orders to remain solvent or turn up a profit?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 13 Oct 2015 03:40

indranilroy wrote:This order is definitely a missed opportunity. I guess they did not realize the size of the impending order. I like the purchase, because I love the Pipistrels.

But in future, is it worth coming up with desi microlights? They will not be much cheaper even if they are built in India. However, it may be a good place to export from given our exchange rates. A few years back quite a few ailing European microlight companies moved their production to US, just because the Euro exchange rates were making the planes too expensive in their primary markets.

Given the state-of-art, there is no requirement to spend any time or money to develop a new design. There are quite a few good designs from companies facing bankruptcy floating around. Just buy one of the designs, and move the production line to India.


Maybe the "best" feature set desired vs just $20 million total deal didn't make business sense for large Indian pvt conglomerates? IMO, it would have been an ideal project for an Indian start-up to get into the aerospace sector. But not much nurturing seems to be happening to get smaller player off-the-ground in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Nick_S » 13 Oct 2015 10:47

http://www.pipistrel.si/news/pipistrel- ... -to-the-in

All the aircraft participating in the tender were tested in the extreme Indian conditions such as high temperature and humidity, extreme altitudes and similar.

Pipistrel will begin with the deliveries to more than 100 locations all over India in 8 months time. All 194 aircraft must be delivered within a period of thirty months after the first delivery. The contract also binds Pipistrel to deliver a further 100 aircraft after the third year, should the buyer want so. All together this means that Pipistrel will produce almost 300 aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 13 Oct 2015 13:59


JE Menon
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JE Menon » 13 Oct 2015 14:35

>>Besides, even if we bought it, how much of a cost reduction would we see in an Indian production to ensure that the company gets enough export orders to remain solvent or turn up a profit?

Well, it is selling and making a profit now it appears. So we just buy, understand its operational mechanics (businesswise I mean), and then see how we can optimise. The expertise is already there. Don't mess with whatever is working (and we seem to know what that is, since we are ordering a few), and tinker with whatever can be improved. Our companies are doing this worldwide with all sorts of businesses. And profit will come into Indian hands. If not make in India in this case, at least made by Indians and money kept with Indians.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ManjaM » 13 Oct 2015 15:41

apologies. OT. deleted.
Last edited by ManjaM on 13 Oct 2015 16:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2015 16:15

I have located a ALG in NE arunachal very near mcmahon line that IAF seems not be using much.
its @ village Tuting and around 1500m long runway
looks under construction on google earth still
https://www.google.co.in/maps/@28.987,9 ... a=!3m1!1e3

this travelogue posted in Dec,2014 has a pic of the airport.
http://www.bcmtouring.com/forums/thread ... 19/page-29

this one Feb 2014
https://www.google.co.in/maps/@28.98644 ... 1000!8i667

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2015 16:18

The state government has suggested setting up new ALGs at Koloriang (Kurung Kumey) and Anini (Dibang Valley district). The existing eight ALGs that were mostly constructed in the wake of the Chinese aggression of 1962 are located at Tuting, Mechuka, Aalo, Tawang, Wallong, Ziro, Vijoynagar and Pasighat. While the Army initially operated Dakota and Otter aircrafts to these ALGs, it has been using AN-32 aircrafts to these ALGs since 1984. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... RU0yw.dpuf

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 13 Oct 2015 16:30

Singha wrote:I have located a ALG in NE arunachal very near mcmahon line that IAF seems not be using much.
its @ village Tuting and around 1500m long runway
looks under construction on google earth still
https://www.google.co.in/maps/@28.987,9 ... a=!3m1!1e3

this travelogue posted in Dec,2014 has a pic of the airport.
http://www.bcmtouring.com/forums/thread ... 19/page-29

this one Feb 2014
https://www.google.co.in/maps/@28.98644 ... 1000!8i667


Tuting is a very well used ALG by IAF. If it is made 1500 mtrs long then it will be even better. I have more than 15 landings at Tuting.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rohitvats » 13 Oct 2015 16:33

Singha wrote:I have located a ALG in NE arunachal very near mcmahon line that IAF seems not be using much.
its @ village Tuting and around 1500m long runway<SNIP>


AN-32 from Chabua fly in to this location. As do chopper pilots from Mi-17 squadrons in Mohanbari. I'm sure deejay can share some stories of sorties to this area.

Sh1t - deejay just beat me to it..... :P :P :P


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