Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

abhik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 03 Aug 2018 23:38

There was an attempt to move it to Goa last time when Parrikar was the RM, didn't happen, but he was successful in moving only the DefExpo. Now with a new RM they are splitting the pie between UP and TN: DefExpo moves to TN from Delhi, now AeroIndia moves to Lucknow; the two defence corridors are in UP and TN. I see the news of AMCA being assembled in TN in the same vain.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 04 Aug 2018 19:54

Lamborghini racing MiG 29 at Dabolim Goa

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 8520377344

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2018 03:17

Some good info for reference....

Image

Austin
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2018 21:08

Very Informative

Reducing the cost of military aircraft: The 7 golden rules

1. Prioritise development

For a frontline aircraft, here is the order of priority:

Sensors/software: average development time 18 years to maturity

New guided munitions/development/integration: average development time 17 years to maturity

Engines: average development time 15 years to maturity

Airframe: average development time 10 years to maturity

Strangely, the reality is almost the opposite with an aircraft starting life in the wind tunnel, despite aerodynamics being the most predictable facet of modern aircraft development.

2. At least two of the following components must be already available off-the-shelf: sensors/engines/airframe (note that former two can be replaced in upgrades).

3. Invest a large amount in a short development time. However terrifying this figure may be, it is guaranteed to be less than the 25 years it currently takes a frontline aircraft to go from concept to operational service. 10 years is not unreasonable. Do not let the requirement be altered during development.

4. Three simple metrics should dominate the design process: power-to-weight/reliability/range, however wonderful the weapons systems promise to be they will benefit from these inherent advantages.

5. Plan who will pay for upgrades in the future.

6. Small factories (of the lowest possible tech) close to all component assemblies (to make this work it must be made clear that the cost savings outweigh the political advantages of multi-state collaboration).

7. The A variant will have insufficient fuel, electrical and processing power for upgrade, this is normal, but plan how it will be rectified in the B or C model.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2018 22:15

Pull Out Your Military Choppers, Personnel, Maldives Tells India

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/big-new ... -topscroll

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 11 Aug 2018 11:51

Yes, Aero India Show Shifts To Lucknow & Over 3 Months Early - LIVEFIST

India’s AERO INDIA show will likely be held over three months early in October-November this year, instead of the expected February 2019. The most dramatic change, however, as reported earlier by Livefist, is that the show shifts out of its traditional home in Yelahanka in Bengaluru to the Bakshi Ka Talab air force base in Lucknow in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. A decision to the effect is likely to be made today by the Indian Ministry of Defence, confirming speculation that has swirled for weeks.


So it seems the change from Bangalore to Lucknow is confirmed and it is going to be Aero India 2018 and not Aero India 2019

Image

Comparing this with Yelahanka I doubt if Bakshi Ka Talab has the required infra for such a premium airshow. Hope Aero India doesn't loose its Premium tag

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 11 Aug 2018 12:09

Why Lucknow of all places? It could have been Hindon, Kalaikunda, Ambala, Chenna, Goa, Mumbai or any number of places. Why and how was Lucknow chosen?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karthik S » 11 Aug 2018 12:19

UP defense corridor is coming up, may be in lieu of that.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Zynda » 11 Aug 2018 12:49

It will be interesting to see what kind of revenue AI will pull up due to change of location. Will they still charge INR 2500 (?) for business tickets? Businesses will still send reps to AI but I do expect a dip in attendance. Also, a lot of civilians working with HAL, CSIR, DRDO labs in BLR would attend on business days with passes...I think this was done way back to promote participation when the show was younger & not so well known. Most of the above crowd won't be flying to Lucknow now...anyways, I do hope that people in Lucknow enjoy AI & its treats.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2018 13:34

PR for the CM .Frankly this moving the Aero- India show will prove detrimental in the long run.It will never gain the same status as Paris, Farnborough, Singapore, Dubai and MAKS which are permanent venues.

There must be a permanent venue and BLR is the best as it is the HQ of Indian aerospace and IT.The south is getting shafted becos a non- BJP govt. is in power in the state? It will take half a century to set up anything equivalent to the BLR aerospace industry which also has the ISRO HQ there than anywhere in the north. Rushing the show to October will also see fewer firang participation as OEMs require usually a year to plan ahead, get their own babu clearances, etc. Anyway I've other fish to fry in Oct. and won't be there for sure.

The Defexpo should preferably be held at a port where visitors can visit warships as at Langkawi.The land warfare expo could be held at Delhi .Sadly the historic Pragati Maidan pavilions have been asininely demolished- I was there in '72 for the first Asia-72 Expo, and the naval expo at Goa, the most attractive venue which is full of hotels, etc. geared up for large numbers of visitors.
Since the CVRDE is at Avadi,during alternative years the Land expo could be at Chennai.Chennai is unsuitable for a combined land/ naval expo because of the inability to visit warships. It would not have happened at Chennai if the DM wasn't from the same state.

Venues should be permanent and selected based upon infrastructure, local defence industry and ease of access for visitors from abroad and within India.
Paris and Farnborough alternate each year.Other than Aero- India, the land and naval expos could be held in similar fashion.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 13 Aug 2018 11:09

Kashi wrote:Why Lucknow of all places? It could have been Hindon, Kalaikunda, Ambala, Chenna, Goa, Mumbai or any number of places. Why and how was Lucknow chosen?

All of these other airport are active air bases with critical combat sqn. , where foreigners are not permitted. (mumbai airport not possible because that airports civil raffic cant be stopped for 10 hrs for 3 days).

Bakshi ka talab per my memory does not base any combat squadron, thus can accept public events including temporary visits by foreigners.

FYI the previous venue in Blore also does to not host combat sqns, thus ok for air show.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 13 Aug 2018 11:23

Philip wrote:There must be a permanent venue and BLR is the best as it is the HQ of Indian aerospace and IT.The south is getting shafted becos a non- BJP govt. is in power in the state
I say a very absurd assertion. As an aside BLR logistic and organization is crap.
It will take half a century to set up anything equivalent to the BLR aerospace industry which also has the ISRO HQ there than anywhere in the north
Eqpt and people that need to be moved for airshow has NOTHING to do with distance it has to travel. Very illogical argument imho.

Venues should be permanent and selected based upon infrastructure, local defence industry and ease of access for visitors from abroad and within India.

It's a Q of investment and ROI. Yes India is not a rich country yet. As Shiv uvaacha: if my aunty had balls she would be my uncle.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 13 Aug 2018 11:54

TN doesn't exactly have a BJP government, and it is further South than Bangalore, wasn't the DefExpo held there recently?

I too am baffled by the seeming shifting of Aero India to Lucknow, but Philip's ranting is absolutely ridiculous. As bad as his constant pedalling of Roosi maal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prasad » 13 Aug 2018 13:29

Issue if that the AI doesn't seem to be moving to a better place. If it was, nobody would be up in arms.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 13 Aug 2018 13:32

There's no place better than Bangalore for AI in my opinion. Why meddle with something that is not broke?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Aug 2018 13:40

Shows like AI inspire young minds to get into aviation and miltary aviation. Rather than restricted to only Bengaluru it should be rotated yearly accross the country

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prasad » 13 Aug 2018 13:44

Ideally we would have air shows across the country like the US does. And not just a once in two years show in the South.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kvraghav » 13 Aug 2018 13:55

I think all this discussion about moving AI started because Karnataka Govt under the great Siddu had written to defense ministry saying the AI was a huge logistic nightmare and cannot be handled effectively.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby souravB » 13 Aug 2018 14:54

IMO there is no reason other than MoD wants to promote UP's defense corridor. How else is one getting so many Defense contractor under one roof than AI. It is the most logical thing to do for promotion. They did the same with Chennai corridor
Though I do not agree with the supposed advancement of the dates.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 13 Aug 2018 15:24

The date has to be brought forward, else everyone would be cooking in UP's heat in Feb.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby vipins » 13 Aug 2018 16:41

nam wrote:The date has to be brought forward, else everyone would be cooking in UP's heat in Feb.

Not heat saar,but before the fog sets in.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby sharma.abhinav » 13 Aug 2018 17:38

I am living in Lucknow and I will try to visit whenever it is held and post the goodies. Yes it is being done for promoting Defence corridor in Bundelkhand and because Karnataka government said that it could not manage it. Last time such an activity was held in Lucknow was Indian Science Congress held at University of Lucknow in 2002. Back then I was glad to see Prithvi missile on display and small model and video of LCA Tejas in the stall. If anyone is interested in attending with me you can contact me on findabhinavsharma@gmail.com

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Anurag » 13 Aug 2018 18:37

Found this on Battle Machines Facebook page posting.

India has its own RC-135esque aircraft. These were ex-Air India aircraft converted by Israel for this role. They now have new built Global 5000s also modified by Israel. Reportedly they want another platform for the SIGINT role.

#εpsilon

https://www.facebook.com/battle.machine ... 93/?type=3

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 13 Aug 2018 18:40

kvraghav wrote:I think all this discussion about moving AI started because Karnataka Govt under the great Siddu had written to defense ministry saying the AI was a huge logistic nightmare and cannot be handled effectively.

Is there any source for this? It sounds too stupid even for a nincompoop to do.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 14 Aug 2018 20:51

Ranting...! Even the Karnataka BJP politicos are asking for it to remain at BLR.this shifting is all to do with the coming elections, not a logical decision in my opinion, and in such indecent haste, without enough time to prepare for it, it will be a big flop.Why brought forward to Oct?There is speculation that the 2019 elections may be brought forward by a couple of months and als hectic electioneering across the country at that time making it a big distraction.UP is the most critical state anx the promise of a defence corridor good for PR.

However, as far as aerospace is concerned BLR is the clear capital of Indian aerospace.Only an ignoramus will deny this fact. There are so many supporting Ddefence labs and pvt. entities too apart from other DPSUs in the state and neighbouring states.Thete is not a snowflakes chance in hell that Lucknow will ever replace BLR.This is one huge mistake. to hold Aero- India here. A land / security defexpo could've been held in Lucknow as has been the case with such expos at Delhi.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 14 Aug 2018 23:55

Aus has done a good job with the exercise pitch black page
lots of pix on the social media links

https://www.airforce.gov.au/exercises/pitch-black

AM leo davies C-in-C RAAF with AM hari kumar, C-in-C WAC
Image

big LM / raytheon 3d radar

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 15 Aug 2018 00:26

The same one which Pak has. Good to get our fingers on it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 15 Aug 2018 02:54

I have more gastronomical reason. Time for Aero India to Taste Lucknowi Kulfi, Chaat, Kebab after Bengaluru Idli, Dosa, Sambar.

Jokes apart, the world needs to see that there is Aerospace Industry - Lucknow, Kanpur - in so called Backward Part of India and fire up an industrial revolution there.

In addition, the whole campaign of 'North Indians' being tax bums and 'spoiling Bengaluru' didn't help either. Well, let Aero India act as Catalyst for Net New Industries in North India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 15 Aug 2018 07:17

Robbing Bangalore to pay Lucknow?
Air Marshal BK Pandey (retd.).Indian Express.

" It's a death knell for Aero India.A disaster in the making.When I heard about this shift my immediate question was , is there a new defence minister from UP being appointed?"

"When Manohar Parikar was appointed he moved DefExpo to Goa.Then when Nirmala Sitharaman was appointed she took DefExpo to Tamil Nadu.This is a politically- driven exercise to prop up ( UP CM )Adityanath with the forthcoming elections in mind, and also to snub ( Karnataka CM) Kumaraswamy.But in all this you are damaging the national intetest.It should've been a professional not political decision."

In 2017 more than 750 global and desi majors participated in AI.109 nations sent ministerial/ secretary level delegations.150, 000 business visitors and over 300, 000 general visitors attended.BLR's hospitality industry recorded over 500 cr. in revenue.Transport operators, eateries, etc. benefited, why there is so much heartburn about the shift.International exhibitors are also concerned as they plan months in advance.

As I stated, to help Lucknow hold the Land Expo there, the Maritime Expo at Goa as it also has an excellent hospitality industry and the excellent Goa shipyard which is building a lot of warships and other vessels for the IN and CG.Aero-India has carved a name for itself at BLR for over 2 decades and is the largest show in Asia.Moving it to Lucknow reminds me of a character in our history, one MBTq, who shifted the capital from Delhi!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 15 Aug 2018 07:53

i am sure a state capital has enough resources to host 5000 delegates for 5 days.

the 300,000 general visitors most of them are unpaid passes obtained by drdo / hal staff who crowd the whole venue esp on last day(airshows).

let the public of other cities also enjoy the airshow.

our event is not big on business deals , business deals are done in delhi.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 15 Aug 2018 09:32

Aerko-India is NOT a revolving tamasha for the public to enjoy.Any circus can do the trivk.This is a serious professional exposition where both Indian and foreign majors display their wares to an international marketplace. It is primarily meant for business visitors and a forum to do aerospace business.

The bulk of Indian aerospace is BLR based and moving both pavilions and representatives from the various BLR based labs, etc. is going to be a huge task.By the same tamasha argument, that other parts of the country must get their jollies too, then even the Republic Day celebrations should rotate from state capital to capital.Why should only Delhiwallahs, babudom and north Indians benefit each year.If the PM is of the opinion, then he could've given the Independence Day speech not from the Red Fort but from Golconda Fort, Mehrangarh or Amber fort , Gwalior Fort, Fort William Calcutta or Fort St.
George for example! I am sure that the Thackeray clan would be delighted if the PM gave his speech at Flora Fountain- in the Fort ,or Shivaji Park Mumbai!

This would be truly democratic in the best spirit of our federal constitution.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Yagnasri » 15 Aug 2018 10:22

I agree with you that Republic day and other national events can be celebrated in various state capitals. Not an issue. But at the same time, there is no comparison between the two. Airshow is an event which can be done any place with facilities to do so.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby KBDagha » 15 Aug 2018 15:25


Khalsa
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Khalsa » 15 Aug 2018 15:52

^^^
That was lovely

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 08 Sep 2018 11:46

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 08 Sep 2018 14:20

If the above is correct, then all the talk of shifting Aero India to Lucknow was just that...talk.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 09 Sep 2018 17:25

Press reports say that it was considered but the hard facts that BLR is our aerospace capital with so many firang majors having their centres, plus the Yelahanka infra which does not exist anywhere else,here made the GOI realise the mistake it would make by shifting the
venue.Will be there next year hopefully.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2018 19:19

So after all the rhona dhona about AI in UP, its where it always was. Can folks here now see through the media agenda to create a whole lot of gas about nothing?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 10 Sep 2018 00:51

It was not gas by the media.The MOD was silent on hhe issue becos there was considerable pressure to hold the tamasha in Lucknow for different reasons.

Media reports.
Sr. officials of the MOD, IAF and local admin. visited Lucknow assessing the amenities there mid- July.What appeared to be the tipping point was
that intl. participants were against such a move as their annual budgeting was from Jan. to Dec.AM Pandey (retd.) said while welcoming the decision, that " you cannot impose a financial burden on them for 2018. They may have had to skip the event if it were held this year".Had participation been poor, the total exercise would've been a flop.Bangalore is the acknowledged aerospace centre of the country with so many desi and firang entities based there and has huge hospitality capability to cater to the huge number of visitors participating and attending the show. Participants reportrdly suffered bad experiences and many inconveniences when DEFEXPO was twice shifted from Delhi to Goa in 2016 and Kancheepuram in 2018.Holding it there is for genuine practical reasons not political.

Our Defexpos and air shows have yet a lot to learn from established shows like Paris, Farnborough, Spore, etc.The BLR air show has incrementally improved over the years, but a lot remains to be improved.In particular the quality of public toilets and catering outlets. Transportation to the show and parking is a nightmare unless you have a VIP pass. Knowing well that BLR is the permanent venue for the air show, infra facilities must be redesigned and executed after a show ends and the feedback from participants is recd.

Any new venue for defexpos requires a few years of advance planning.However, Defexpo which is the Land and Naval expo should find a permanent venue where visits to naval ships and even subs are possible.They could even be split up. You can't have a naval show in Delhi. Goa would be the best permanent location for a Naval expo as GSL is also available to visit .Goa too is the country's most popular international beach tourist destination with a large hotel capacity.

The Land expo can rotate giving a chance for states and cities which have land systems entities to showcase their products.Hyderabad has in the past been the venue for the civil aviation expo.This is one expo that could also rotate as well as the annual auto show.Cities like Pune, Madras, etc. are major auto manufacturing centres and have good infra for the same.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Sep 2018 19:21

ks_sachin wrote:
To all the air warfare gurus is it possible to

- conceptualise a specific mission into China
- identify the strike package
- identify CAP requirements
- identify refuelling requirements for that specific mission

I feel that there is a lot of "I feel" and "I think" but the lack of aerial refuelling assets would be better highlighted by a case study that could bring this to life. Alas I am not sufficiently competent to address this....


ks_sachin saar,

Taking up the discussion on the aerial refuelling here since continuing this discussion in the Tejas thread would derail it and bring BReaper action on us.

There is a ready-made scenario available for what you are asking in BRF, thanks to those amazing scenarios that Vivek Ahuja used to share here. While I understand that it was a fantasy scenario, the performances of the aircraft and the over capabilities of both the belligerents in the scenarios are pretty close to the truth so we can use that as our starting point, collate all the air action that takes place and based on that generate the tanking demand that is present based on those.


fanne wrote:@singha - We have 272 (-8) SU30MKI to refuel them. Even Mig 29 have buddy refueling. More Midas or whatever is good, but we are covered.
Let's look at the use case, the plane takes off with max fuel and load (one can argue, less fuel and more load, but none of these planes are limited by fuel load to compromise on weapon load), from interior (1- no need to refuel at this point, as it is full), crosses into TSP or TSPF (TSP's friend) territory, (2 -small use case for refueling for fighters that have taken off from hinterland, since near border contested airspace), 3- refueling in hostile airspace - suicidal but needed),coming back from raid (4-in enemy or own territory near border) or way back in own territory -5.

For all cases except 5, I would trust SU30MKI to provide me a-a refueling than a Midas or anything else. Another 6-10 tankers wouldn't hurt, but we are not in that bad shape.

@fanne,

In a conventional symmetric war, I would prefer to have my fighters and strike aircraft available for combat missions instead of being used as a utility platform. They can act these roles in peacetime but not during war. Also the quantum of fuel they can offload to a receiver would be very low. For eg, MKI carries about 7-9 tonnes of fuel internally, depending on the source you take as reference, and doesn't carry a drop tank as far as I know. Even if it offloads 50% of this load, its just 3.5T, which translates to a less than a tonne per bird in a flight of 4. Can you imagine the no of MKI's that would be required to feed a squadrons worth of strike aircraft, aircrafts that can prove much more useful dominating the enemy's airspace or supporting naval operations or just bombing the crap out of the enemy's rear echelons?


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