Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2016 22:56

Nirav, No means NO.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 20 Jun 2016 23:01

ramana wrote:Nirav, No means NO.

Sorry Ramana saar. I get that. But,

A well respected mod calling a non issue a 'problem' has to be pointed out right ?
There is zero technical evidence that its a problem.

I wasnt flame baiting, just pointing out that one must be careful with choice of words.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jun 2016 02:04

You are right. Let's move on.

Calling Vivek_ahuja. Any chance of doing some aero-analysis using your software on the HTT-40.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Jun 2016 12:24

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-426570/

India taps locally made HTT-40 as next basic trainer

22 June, 2016

New Delhi will procure Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) HTT-40 basic trainers, and cap the further import of foreign-built aircraft.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar made the announcement during a visit to Bangalore to witness the first public flight of the indigenously designed and developed, tandem seat, turboprop trainer.

“Stage II training is now also being handled by BTAs and therefore the requirement for the total number will increase from 181 to approximately 210,” Parrikar said.

HAL received an order for 68 HTT-40s in 2015, the minimum number of airframes for the project to be economically viable. Orders could rise as high as 120.

Parrikar also made it clear that there would be no further import of basic trainers, meaning no more orders will be forthcoming for the Swiss-made Pilatus PC-7 MKII, of which 75 are in operational service. An options clause for an additional 38 of the type was cleared by the defence acquisition council (DAC) in March 2015.

India’s current government has espoused a “Make-In-India” policy, which is intended to strengthen the country’s indigenous production capabilities across a range of industries, including defence and aerospace.

Design and development work on the HTT-40 commenced in August 2013, when Hindustan Aeronautics’ decided to proceed with the programme using internal funding. The type conducted its maiden flight on 31 May 2015, and the second prototype is scheduled to fly in December.

“The initial performance of the HTT-40 has been up to expectations and further flying testing is under progress to further expand the aircraft’s performance envelope,” says HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju.

Developmental flight testing will comprise 350 flights, with a third and final prototype to be built in series production configuration. Wind tunnel trials for stall and spin testing are already underway.

“Concurrent manufacturing tasks are expected to commence and receive approval for production in 2017,” says Raju.

The planned weaponised variant of the HTT-40 will have two in-board and two outboard stations to carry weapons. A Heads-Up Display is being considered.

The HTT-40 is fitted with Martin Baker Zero-Zero MK16A ejection seats.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jun 2016 01:41

Not sure how accurate that info on the HTT-40 having the Mk16A ejection seat is..this article talks about the Mk10 or Mk11 for primary trainers

..
The F-35 notwithstanding, the growth market for MBA over the past 15 years has been primary trainers. The Mk10 and Mk 11 seats can be found in more than 50 countries on such aircraft as the Pilatus PC-7/PC-9/PC-21, the Korean KT-1 and newcomers such as the HAL HTT-40 and TAI Hurkus.

But the Mk11 is a zero/60 KIAS seat. Not 0/0. And it flies on the PC-7 Mk2. So it can't be the one. Mk10 is 0/0 ejection seat, so a possible contender.

Mk16 is the version fitted to the Tejas and HJT-36. But the Martin Baker website also mentions that the T-6 Texan II features the Mk16 seat..so maybe a further development of that seat is there on the HTT-40.

In its US16T guise, the Mk16 was also retrofitted to the U.S. Air Force Northrop T-38C Talon fleet when it was upgraded, another American major contract for the British company. In India, the Mk16 has displaced the Zvezda K-36 ejection seat that was fitted to the prototypes of the HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and HAL Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jun 2016 08:06

If the number of BTA is being increased from 181 to 210 as they're sharing Stage II training load, it means the solution for IJT problems is still few years down the line. I distinctly remember reading that MOD will not be importing an IJT.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jun 2016 08:47

And yet there were at least 2 IJTs that appeared to be Series Production builds in a photo of the HAL assembly floor posted on the earlier page.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2016 09:42

rohitvats wrote:If the number of BTA is being increased from 181 to 210 as they're sharing Stage II training load, it means the solution for IJT problems is still few years down the line. I distinctly remember reading that MOD will not be importing an IJT.

Three new ones in this image
http://files.prokerala.com/news/photos/ ... 428239.jpg

I post some views as an armchair marshal and as a forme fruste of a pilot: Stall and spin training is as far as I can tell only required to teach pilots how it feels when a plane gets into that situation and how to keep a cool head and follow one's training or specific instructions when that happens. The training, once done is done. The pilot may go on to fly an aircraft that either never spins or one that is sure to crash if it stalls so the pilot either needs to make sure he does not get there or keep a cool head and eject.

Actually if the IAF were (in theory) to decide that stall/spin training could be completed on PC-7 then IJT would probably have no problem in taking pilots up into the next step with jets.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jun 2016 10:51

The PC-21 obviates the need for an IJT.Many air forces use it.It can be programmed to simulate a variety of high-performance jets ,but would obviously cost more than the PC-7 the cheap choice. If the IJT cannot be developed in time or perform as expected for the IAF,then we're up the creek again.Best solution now with 100% FDI if for Pilatus,others to set up plants in India to manufacture their birds.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 23 Jun 2016 12:58

I have struggled to work out where to post this. Nevertheless,

Buying Predator Drones From The US Could Cost India Heavily

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/achal-agra ... 45600.html

"We, however, are more likely, for now, to use the drones in our own country as neither Pakistan nor China is going to allow India to fly armed drones in their territory." (unarmed drones would be OK!!, idiot!!)

from a, Achal Agrawal PhD candidate in Applied Mathematics from University of Paris-Saclay

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2016 13:18

^^ the guy has no idea of what he is talking about

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Jun 2016 13:45

rohitvats wrote:If the number of BTA is being increased from 181 to 210 as they're sharing Stage II training load, it means the solution for IJT problems is still few years down the line. I distinctly remember reading that MOD will not be importing an IJT.

Could be due to significant increase in training hours in pilots syllabus?? Or has this been accounted for already?
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 870071.ece

The PC-7 MkII has enabled the IAF to increase the basic training syllabus in terms of flight hours by 220 per cent compared to previous operations and also increase the solo content from 1 to 14 sorties.

But I have to say I am feeling little uneasy about IJT as well. Partly because what I have heard from a credible source. And partly due to lack any public source info on spin/stall test results for quite some time now. If the spin tests were a success we would have definitely heard about it, in my opinion.

What Shiv is saying above is also quite plausible. But shouldn't there be some news about induction in that case??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2016 15:02

Karan M wrote:^^ the guy has no idea of what he is talking about

The moron thinks drones will be used in Kasmhir. Talk about complete absence of any connection with Indian reality.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2016 15:16

Its easy to forget that the IJT is not a lemon. Its basic flying and aerobatic ability is not in doubt. Apparently there has been "some progress" in stall and spin where it stalls, and recovers from a spin after 1.5 turns - or some such thing as was reported some months ago

From Aero India 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFjX3d1nwPU

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Jun 2016 19:48

shiv - stalling is not only something to be guarded against when flying but also can be used as part of an aerobatic manoeuvre - stall turns. the immelman turn was the first use of the stall turn in a combat manoeuvre (WW1)
spinning can also be used in aerobatics though not often in combat moves. some aircraft are stable enough to come out of spins themselves, but most are not. military types can get into unrecoverable spins due to their inherent instability

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 23 Jun 2016 20:05

India considers additional 30-unit Hawk buy

Parrikar also confirms the cancellation of a 2014 request for information for intermediate jet trainers, despite continued delays to its indigenous HAL HJT-36 Sitara programme.

However, he says that production of the HJT-36 has been halted to resolve issues with the type. “The HJT-36 has a lot of the stall-related problems that have been overcome. Spin remains a problem, we will not make any more IJTs until they overcome this problem.”

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Jun 2016 20:15

^^Looks like as an interim solution IJT level training is planned to be covered by BTT and AJT in parts in coming years. Once IJT Sitara is free of issues it can be inducted. But that might take another 2-3yrs. AFAIK wing redesign is only solution left for the spin issue now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jun 2016 20:36

Lalmohan wrote:shiv - stalling is not only something to be guarded against when flying but also can be used as part of an aerobatic manoeuvre - stall turns. the immelman turn was the first use of the stall turn in a combat manoeuvre (WW1)
spinning can also be used in aerobatics though not often in combat moves. some aircraft are stable enough to come out of spins themselves, but most are not. military types can get into unrecoverable spins due to their inherent instability

Using stalls for aerobatics or in manoeuvres is something that can only happen after a pilot learns to handle a stall and spin. So training pilots to handle that is an important capability of a trainer. But India has 3 stage training and if stall and spin recovery can be done in one of the earlier stages the capability is unnecessary in other stages. One could have a fly-by wire trainer that will not allow a pilot to get into that situation at all.

Is the IJT held up SOLELY on its stall/spin issue despite being capable in all other ways? Pilots are being taught to handle stall/spin on PC 7. IJT can be used to convert to jets no? I would be happy to know the real reason? is it possible that the real reasons include a reluctance on the part of the IAF?

I really don't know but am unconvinced by the explanations I have heard

PS - I'm not sure the Immelman was a "post stall manoeuvre" because control was retained, but I may be wrong. Of course my generation grew up reading Biggles stories about a WW1 pilot so the term is familiar

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2016 20:53

nileshjr wrote:^^Looks like as an interim solution IJT level training is planned to be covered by BTT and AJT in parts in coming years. Once IJT Sitara is free of issues it can be inducted. But that might take another 2-3yrs. AFAIK wing redesign is only solution left for the spin issue now.

Do we even need the Sitara? Now the IAF has Pilatus and AJT?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Jun 2016 23:48

^Good Question above by Karan.
awaiting the answer.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 24 Jun 2016 02:20

Yes we do for no other reason but to advance to the next in-house design of advanced jet trainers. Once we master the IJT, we can master the AJT stage and be more independent. This is where I would nurture the Kaveri program. Design the AJT around the kaveri program thereby giving a much needed testosterone boost shot to the Kaveri program since the designers know that they will have a plane to put in the engine.

Why did we go for Adour Honeywell engines upgrade when we could have use components of the kaveri engine to re-engine the Jaguars. It would have provided a nice incubator platform for the Kaveri program to thrive.

We need to find ways and opportunities to make the Kaveri engine program thrive so we can retain the engine technology know how and expand that base and compete with the Americans and Europeans.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jun 2016 05:42

Back in those days when the MoD had already taken 20 years to select an AJT and we did not know whether it would be Hawk or Alphajet the IAF "managed" its advanced training on MiG 21s - shifting the entire training squadron to Tezpur (I think) that had the requisite runway length and altitude above MSL.

But as the AJT was more and more and more delayed, our Kirans started getting old and HAL proposed an IJT which was designed and flown within 2 years. With continued delays with the AJT purchase HAL also started design of a twin engine AJT called the "CAT" or Combat Advanced Trainer. This was around 2005 - just a decade ago when old codger BRFites were already old, but youngster BRFites were toddlers or school kids

Fast forward 10 years and what do we see:

We have PC 7, why do we need the HTT 40 (says the IAF)
We have the AJT, why do we need the IJT (ask people on BRF)
CAT has been rejected by IAF and forgotten by BRF

What I see here is the attitude that says "Now that we have our imports sorted out, forget the local development and throw away the skills developed and let the people who learned those skills become file pushers or leave and join the automobile industry" We did this earlier for the HF 24 and more recently for our Submarines line after we closed down the line.

This is no way to build up industrial capability. No matter what we import we must continue to invest in our own people. I also think that when we sing the praises of Sukhoi - we love the machine but forget that it was people- Pavel Sukhoi and the design bureau that gave us the machine. Making design teams with experience of failure or success jobless is the worst possible thing to do. It takes over a decade to get a new design flying even for advanced industrial nations but they retain people designers and engineers with many decades experience because the skills are valued. The aircraft are secondary to the skills.

Also forgotten is the fact that the IAF has a 3 stage syllabus. Basic prop trainer-basic jet trainer-advanced jet trainer. Now the suggestion here is that the IAF should simply take pilots from a basic PC 7 to a medium-high performance jet - the Hawk - designed for advanced training.But the IAF has not changed it syllabus. It is still using Kirans. Kirans have been taken off the Surya Kiran line simply to extend their life and only a few days ago we saw 3 women pilots photographed with Kirans. These girls will next fly Hawks in Bidar before one goes to Jaguars, another to MiG 21 and a third to Sukhoi or something, maybe Tejas

Has anyone asked the IAF why they have a 3 stage program? Our pilots are among the best in the world because they are trained well and by chucking out IJT we are chucking out both indigenous design capability as well as one stage of flying training. Two birds in one shot.

I am in complete disagreement with the idea.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jun 2016 11:28

^^^If the idea is to inculcate an appreciation of indigenous products within the armed forces, there does not exist a better opportunity where the young pilots are trained on domestic trainers.

A pilot who has done his training on HTT-40 and IJT-36 and then goes on to fly other a/c including Tejas will have that much better understanding of what we can do in this domain. If not for any other reason, I would like to see IJT fly and be inducted for this specific purpose - give young rookie pilots a feel of Indian products.

Though, the other possibility is that if these products are not supported well by HAL post induction, the same rookie pilots will grow with negative impact of HAL/DPSU and will be vary of working with them in future.

Shiv - IAF had ordered 73 IJT in March 2010 [http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 026_1.html]

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Jun 2016 15:08

stalling is taught very early on in the flying syllabus (first 30-40 hours) (or more correctly post stall recovery)
spinning towards the end of basic training (or more correctly post spin recovery)

these are basic airmanship/piloting skills, more advanced aerobatics are taught later (50-100 hours)

then on, the pilot has to understand how the craft flys and then to use its characteristics to best effect. sometimes you do want to stall intentionally, but mostly you don't

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Jun 2016 22:24

I think IJT will give us valuable learning lessons to manufacture HTT-40 and future AJTs.

NachiketM · Post by **NachiketM** » 27 Jun 2016 14:30

Karan M wrote:For instance, this was an attempt to catalogue what the MiG-29 is really capable of - looking at IAF and outside both.

I looked at various exercises wherein MiG-29s took on various other aircraft and weapons systems.

http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/MiG-29

Excellent work !!!
Appreciate it ...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jun 2016 14:37

Karan M wrote:For instance, this was an attempt to catalogue what the MiG-29 is really capable of - looking at IAF and outside both.

I looked at various exercises wherein MiG-29s took on various other aircraft and weapons systems.

http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/MiG-29

Superb collection of Data on IAF and 29 , Thanks for the effort

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Jun 2016 16:22

Karan M wrote:For instance, this was an attempt to catalogue what the MiG-29 is really capable of - looking at IAF and outside both.

I looked at various exercises wherein MiG-29s took on various other aircraft and weapons systems.

http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/MiG-29

Nice writeup. Some of the links in the article are broken.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 28 Jun 2016 20:46

Air India retains rights to fly VVIPs

Air India retains rights to fly VVIPs

Gautam Datt | Posted by Parthshri Arora
New Delhi, June 25, 2016 | UPDATED 10:29 IST

Air India will continue to fly Prime Minister Narendra Modi instead of the Indian Air Force (IAF) as the two brand new Boeing 777s being procured for VVIP flying will remain with the national carrier.

The Prime Minister at present flies in Air India's Boeing 747s on his long haul intercontinental journeys. But under a new plan, the jumbo jets are being replaced by two Boeing 777s.

STATE-OF-THE-ART FACILITIES

The new aircraft, fitted with self-protection suites and state-of-the-art features, will fill the security gap that existed in current Air India One which is a regular aircraft pulled out from the fleet for the Prime Minister or the President's journeys.

It was earlier decided that the new Boeing 777-300s, to be tailor-made for VVIP flying, would be operated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) instead of Air India just like "Air Force One" carrying the US President.

IAF TO MANAGE SECURITY

Under the new plan, the new aircraft will remain with Air India but the IAF personnel will only manage the self-protection suite accompanying the aircraft.

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which is meeting on Saturday, will also discuss this new arrangement. The proposal is one of many items on the agenda of DAC.

The new aircraft will be made by Boeing as per India's requirements of completely securing the VVIP from hostile missiles or any other threat posed in the operating environment.

The IAF has a communication squadron that flies the VVIP.

The squadron at present has three Boeing Business Jets (BBJs) purchased around 10 years ago. The BBJs - equipped with self protection suites -- are used for short haul flights because of the range limitations offered by the narrow body aircraft Boeing 737.

The squadron also has five Embraer 135 Legacy executive jets that are mostly used by senior cabinet ministers handling key defence, home and external affairs portfolios and the service chiefs.

TIME FOR NEW BOEING 777s

Officials said even the new jets being procured for VVIP flying can be utilised in the Air India fleet. The national carrier already flies Boeing 777s.

While deciding on the new aircraft, the Boeing 777 was seen as a logical choice as jumbo jets are going out of production and it would be difficult to maintain these machines in the long run.

The officials said that Boeing 777 is a well established platform and Air India has maintenance lines and expertise to handle the aircraft. It is the aircraft that will remain in service for long. The replacement of US Air Force One, however, will be newer version of Boeing 747.

I guess SPG relented on the requirement that VVIP flights need to have 4 engines for enhanced safety. The article also gets wrong on the current 747s lacking protection. Per wiki article, the 747s configured for VVIP role contains extra shielded wiring along with SATCOM etc. Unsure if they have ECM or dedicated missile countermeasures (even basic chaff/flares).

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 15 Aug 2016 07:44

Just to remind what the ddm has shamelessly forgotten that the An 32 is still missing and it's probably the biggest loss iaf has seen in recent past

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 15 Aug 2016 16:21

India Cancels Deal for Six Airbus Tankers
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /87720726/

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 26 Aug 2016 13:27

X posting from LCA thread:

indranilroy wrote:Deejay,

Have you seen the HTT40 or IJT flying regularly off late. Any more sightings of Saras. Please reply in the Indian military aviation thread. Thanks.

~~No further sightings of HTT 40.~~

One sighting of IJT flying.

I have not sighted the Saras but I have been (reliability? ) told that Saras ground runs are once in a week affair. Programme is waiting for fresh directions and funds.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2016 13:30

the MOD twitter channel posts periodic updates on the AN32 search.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 26 Aug 2016 13:55

deejay wrote:X posting from LCA thread:

indranilroy wrote:Deejay,

Have you seen the HTT40 or IJT flying regularly off late. Any more sightings of Saras. Please reply in the Indian military aviation thread. Thanks.
~~No further sightings of HTT 40.~~

One sighting of IJT flying.

I have not sighted the Saras but I have been (reliability? ) told that Saras ground runs are once in a week affair. Programme is waiting for fresh directions and funds.

I feel like kicking myself. I posted this and at 1:45 p.m. I see the HTT 40 taxi out. Took off at around 1:50 p.m.

https://twitter.com/rotormagic/status/7 ... 5576151040

Sorry for the hazy pic.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 26 Aug 2016 16:12

deejay,

I am bad at recognise aircrafts in quick time (also its slightly far from my window) but I see trainer jet flying all the time, sometimes making lots of landing approaches consecutively (in last two weeks). Is that IJT, can't say for sure. Once I saw IJT for sure since it was in yellow primer so easy to recognise.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Aug 2016 16:59

JayS wrote:deejay,

I am bad at recognise aircrafts in quick time (also its slightly far from my window) but I see trainer jet flying all the time, sometimes making lots of landing approaches consecutively (in last two weeks). Is that IJT, can't say for sure. Once I saw IJT for sure since it was in yellow primer so easy to recognise.

Most often it would be the Hawk - especially if it makes a rough loud sound. IJT is a softer muted roar

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 26 Aug 2016 17:38

^^aha...thanks for that tip.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 26 Aug 2016 18:04

JayS wrote:deejay,

I am bad at recognise aircrafts in quick time (also its slightly far from my window) but I see trainer jet flying all the time, sometimes making lots of landing approaches consecutively (in last two weeks). Is that IJT, can't say for sure. Once I saw IJT for sure since it was in yellow primer so easy to recognise.

Mostly Hawks only. But definitely one was the IJT. IJT has been out on tarmac a few times.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Aug 2016 19:52

JTull wrote:
Karan M wrote:For instance, this was an attempt to catalogue what the MiG-29 is really capable of - looking at IAF and outside both.

I looked at various exercises wherein MiG-29s took on various other aircraft and weapons systems.

http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/MiG-29
Nice writeup. Some of the links in the article are broken.

Austin, Nachiket, JTull thanks!

I was always concerned some links would end up broken - so i ended up quoting a lot of stuff. I'll try and fix those when i get time.

The MiG-29 has always been a lethal airframe, i hope the Upg retains high serviceability. Unlike the 29-K its a less ambitious rework & even in service with the Russians themselves in another variant.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 26 Aug 2016 19:56

@Karan - Welcome back!