Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Jan 2019 13:02

chetak wrote:
Delhi Defence Review @delhidefence

We are Twenty Five Days away from #AeroIndia2019

Here's the Ultra Light Helicopter of @HALHQBLR sitting in the Bengaluru sun, looking to enter operational service in months to come.

God knows when this beauty will enter services.

Can anyone help with a estimated timelines ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2019 00:47

ashishvikas wrote:
Indranil wrote: Lack of confidence and support.
Why Sir, Why Why ?

I will stick my neck out and say "institutionalized bias". That is my opinion in this case.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jan 2019 01:04

IAF does not do certification right? CEMILAC does. SO what certification is being talked about here?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jan 2019 11:40

Will the HAL LUH be flying at Aero-India? It would have a good impact if so.She looks a cute little bird.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Jan 2019 13:42

It flew at last AI itself. No reason why it will not fly this time as well.

mody · Post by **mody** » 30 Jan 2019 18:09

Indranil wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:
Why Sir, Why Why ?
I will stick my neck out and say "institutionalized bias". That is my opinion in this case.

IAF is pushing for additional order for 37 Pilatus, as per the option clause from the first order. The total requirement is for 108 aircrafts. With 37 additional Pilatus, the numbers left for HTT-40 will be 71.
IAF is probably still miffed with HAL, for having gone ahead and developed a plane as per the ASQR even though thry opposed the plan.

CEMILAC is supposed to certify the aircraft. I hope MoD does not order the Pilatus and pushes for faster certification for HTT-40.
Truly sad. A young team developed the HTT-40 in record time and that too better then competing aircrafts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2019 18:31

Parrikar sir has released a letter, accusing RaGa of flat out lying that anything related to rafale was discussed in his 5 min courtesy call.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/manohar ... re-1985657

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 30 Jan 2019 21:24

Singha wrote:Parrikar sir has released a letter, accusing RaGa of flat out lying that anything related to rafale was discussed in his 5 min courtesy call.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/manohar ... re-1985657

Not surprised at how low Congress will stoop - lying about a meeting with a man struggling for his life knowing very well that he can't step in front of the news media to defend himself and the truth given his medical condition.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Jan 2019 21:58

I will give an example of bias.

Read somewhere on Twitter: HTT-40 doesn't have a good climb rate. The tweet was by a retired IAF personnel (fighter pilot if I am not wrong) and retweeted by VK Thakur (whom I respect very much as a level headed commentator).

But how is it possible that an aircraft with an above average glide ratio (L/D) and an above average TWR has sub-par climb rate? I am sure the above two gentlemen are very much capable of seeing that this cannot be true. But they just believed whatever they heard because that is (probably) what they wanted to hear.

Clearly, these are two individuals. And it is a stretch to extend this to the the institution. None the less, ...

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Jan 2019 22:46

You saw that too

How do you clam down the snark in response to such comments?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Jan 2019 23:33

>>>But how is it possible that an aircraft with an above average glide ratio (L/D) and an above average TWR has sub-par climb rate? I am sure the above two gentlemen are very much capable of seeing that this cannot be true.

Yes, but they wont take the effort nine times out of ten, to correlate. No interest, time etc. I think despite the extensive formal training, some commentators don't have the time, energy or interest in going to these sort of details.

>>>But they just believed whatever they heard because that is (probably) what they wanted to hear.

That is the bigger truth which combines with the above to create a toxic situation where all sorts of rumors are given credence. Anything Indian "failing" is automatically given credence. This will change only when the commentators use Indian equipment extensively which they can trust. Many in the above generation above are set in their ways but the next generation which grew up using Akash, Brahmos, LCA will be something different, hopefully.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 08 Feb 2019 04:23

UK to invite India to co-develop sixth-generation fighter aircraft Tempest.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2019 05:28

After missing the boat on kc390 i am sure we will sink a spectacular own goal by spurning this offer even if workshare and tech gains are good

Japan will likely join

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 08 Feb 2019 05:57

Considering this isn't a DDM type thing since it is by the good Karnail and he generally has good sources but poor deductions, there might be other considerations

IAF, considering previous doctrine would require a heavy air superiority fighter
Is it fiscally or manpower wise feasible for us to develop this concurrently with AMCA
What guarantee will we get from UK, that they wouldn't buckle under Khan chacha's pressure and leave the project midway

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 08 Feb 2019 06:27

UK is looking for strategic options post Brexit. Teresa May had made the first visit post Brexit to India and commented on how India will be important for/to UK in the aftermath.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Feb 2019 06:40

Don't know Singha sir. In the recent past UK, France and Germany have not started on a joint project which has resulted in a joint fighter.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2019 07:05

Uk italy and netherland have this tempest concept
Su30 suze heavy may not be needed if JSF size suffices and new engines sip 20% less fuel for the fabled 1000 mile radius on internal fuel

France germany have their own proj

India and japan joining tempest would make it financially viable. We can call it amca must get in early to join the joint design team like iss lhc type projects were multi national

If they only offer assembly and making panels with no design then not worth

But nothing will come of it. Our mod is a big dud and hal is not really run in agile mode like say iai. By the tome our pondering paper files move the design would be frozen

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2019 11:32

It is just an offer like join my project via media , there will be a detailed 10 years discussion spanning 2 GOI in Indian MOD wheather to join the project , what would be the cost , Industrial benefits , TOT etc

Tempest is tempting but nothing can tempt indian mod

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2019 11:41

yep. GOI will sit on it and the opportunity to join any design activity will pass us by as usual.

however I am not sure the money can be found for a genuine 5th gen sensor rich AMCA when the major powers are struggling to fund the long tech projects needed to produce workable product that can fit in - it starts from material science and basics of EM spectrum.

I am afraid unless we join some stronger aerospace power project , our AMCA will be more like a stealthier rafale but lacking in the refinements and hamstrung by whatever trailing edge engine the americans offer like GE414-NG while euros will develop clean burn next gen engines. muricans are boneheaded wrt engines and go after only two sizes - BIG and VERY BIG - while AMCA is sized to medium format "euro" spec engines of M88 mould

muricans traditionally have developed a massive engine and then wrapped a airframe around it. while euros do it the other way around.

a classic american product.

the republic p47 thunderbolt - this thing could not only bullfight and gore smaller fighters, but unleash heavy firepower downrange and rip less hardy elegant fighters to shreds (japanese zero types) . pilot was well protected and airframe could absorb more fire than a run of mill design. Then they put a slick black suit on this brutish thug and called it P-51 Mustang the legend with the RR Merlin engines

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2019 12:03

Singha wrote:I am afraid unless we join some stronger aerospace power project , our AMCA will be more like a stealthier rafale but lacking in the refinements and hamstrung by whatever trailing edge engine the americans offer like GE414-NG while euros will develop clean burn next gen engines. muricans are boneheaded wrt engines and go after only two sizes - BIG and VERY BIG - while AMCA is sized to medium format "euro" spec engines of M88 mould

AMCA primary goal should be close to 100 % indiginous fighter be that in Engine , Weapon , Sensor and every thing that goes into it , It is fine to have a Gen 5 minus fighter which can be 100 % built in india rather than have a 5 gen plus fighter which has 40-50 % import content ..we can eventually catch up the technology gap in few years as our economy grows but depending on import would be a major strangling point as we grow economically

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2019 12:08

I am all for your pov, but will the end user IAF agree to fly and fight in "inferior" plane?

will people used to arabi race horses agree to sit on a sdre marwar horse ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2019 12:15

Singha wrote:I am all for your pov, but will the end user IAF agree to fly and fight in "inferior" plane?

will people used to arabi race horses agree to sit on a sdre marwar horse ?

Yes IAF will keep tweaking its ASQR midway till AMCA has manouveribility better than PAK-FA , Stealth Better than JSF/F-22 and Avionics/Sensors fusion as good as Tempest , DRDO is already positioning AMCA as 5 plus gen fighter even before they started doing any FSED , Till AMCA achieves it there will be some critical urgent purchase of few dozen 5th Gen fighter with AON promptly granted by MOD and CCS.

Reason Iran with $15 billion budget has far greater indiginisation than our Armed Forces put together.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 Feb 2019 22:00

Singha wrote: muricans are boneheaded wrt engines and go after only two sizes - BIG and VERY BIG - while AMCA is sized to medium format "euro" spec engines of M88 mould

Yet evidence and data points to nothing of this sort. There are more EJ200/M88 class engines in service with the US services (F404/414 ) than the former with European operators.

The combination of a decent payload, low-observability and combat radius demands more thrust. Just look at the thrust range the SCAF is looking at (30K lb or more or basically in the ballpark of F119/F120 as far as thrust is concerned). At the end of the day propulsion trades are done based on performance, logistics, and cost for the system. The USAF PCA will probably have 40K+ thrust class engines (two) just because of the performance demands and overall range/payload requirements.

Even on the AMCA and KFX class of fighters it is perhaps only the F414-Enhancement engine which has had some "hard" investment and initial work performed to eventually go down that upgrade path. The rest mostly have paper plans and haven't really invested any significant money or done much actual work towards that goal.

The US pursued multiple 5th generation aircraft and engine programs and the performance requirements and logistical considerations drove the decisions to pursue higher thrust class engines. The Europeans chose to only invest in 4+ aircraft and it won't be till a couple of decades from now that they'll have something new which would have required similar trades the US made back in the late 1980's when ATF propulsion trades were being done.

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Feb 2019 23:16

I am for joining tempest for one sole reason. Funding.

GOI and IAF will be ready to line up billions if other countries are involved, but will not fund ADA.

250 millions to Sukhoi for a big Zero. Israel for barak 8.

Peanuts for AMCA so far.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Feb 2019 23:43

Nam, the British will fleece us.

This will be PAK-FA redux all over again. They will make us invest something upwards of minimum $1 billion and give us squat in return. We will get local assembly, possibly some radar and some weapons assembly. But that is about it. Any technology on the engine (crystal blade), stealth design, GaN foundry, etc (basically the magic juice) will be kept by them only. They are too broke to fund the entire development themselves. So their idea is to rope in India to fund a portion of the development and reap all the benefits in return. And no matter what they write in a contract to convince us otherwise, a bucket of warm piss will have more value.

I agree with the premise of your post, but the application will be a dismal failure. The better option is to go in for the Franco-German project if such an offer does come on the table. Do not touch the British project with a ten foot pole. The Eurofighter debacle was largely due to the British. And the French walked out as a result and gave birth to the Rafale. Even today, the Eurofighter is hobbled by the four nation consortium. Petty squabbles have limited the aircraft's potential.

Why do you think the Germans joined with the French for their sixth generation fighter? The British are untrustworthy, unreliable and too broke. Brexit has made it worse. Britain is done. Germany saw the writing on the wall. The sun set on the British Empire and has moved on. Better to go with a European nation, than join Massa's poodle.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Feb 2019 05:27

Tempest is " tempting" what?! However, only the US, Russia and China have built and flown stealth birds.The UK has bought the JSF from bumchum US without any access to its stealth tricks.It is therefore low on stealth IQ plus after Brexit going to be lower on vitamin M too!
Which friendly fools have the moolah and are IT leaders too who can be roped in? No prizes for the correct answer.If we baulked at the SU-57 , and cost was one factor, I can't see us joing the Brit. bandwagon.

As a former USN CNO said, there is a shift from platform-centric to payload-centric warfare.
Long ranged stealth missiles can effectively do the biz launched from non-stealthy or partially stealthy birds.Kalibir, Klub, Tomahawk and hopefully our very own Nirbhay in the future are/will be the weapons of choice along with smaller stealthy UCAVs.Manned stealth fighters are going to be prohibitively expensive which very few nations can afford to splurge on.We have great missile development capability.BMos- H is on the way.That is a far riper fruit in the orchard.The smart glide bombs and ARM missile are great achievements. The MOD will have to think very hard on how its limited budget will determine priority projects.
However, there's no harm in taking a dekko at the " tempting" offer.It will give us a good insight into the mind of the future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2019 09:11

well obviously cannot be handled in deals like this by MOD empannelled lawyers who have no understanding of the defence mnc markets.
these lawyers get us into trouble on tot every single time.

instead we should retain the services of some firm in EU who handles this kind of work. and sign up only if we get what we want.

note that even in EF deal, it was not that MTU got design IP of the hot section of EJ200 tech from RR, or shared the cold section tech with RR vice versa....i mean tech at the design and IP level not the components, which obviously have to work together and test together. the Euros might have secret licensing and NDA deals between themselves to share tech easily and cheaply. collectively they can make anything, singularly only france makes everything, but being inside the tent gives a company in spain or italy no worries about obtaining some vital piece from denmark or UK.

we need to get inside that tent so that pool of tech is readily available to us. this will help timely delivery on 100s of projects we need to initiate looking into 2050.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 09 Feb 2019 10:12

Tempting Tempest thing shows a few things. Hawk I showed Indian Software and Weapons integration capability to BAE / UK. AMCA is more advanced than what many would know about. Say this because Tempest has to be built on core airframe, AMCA can offer that, and software being integral to any future platform, Hawk i was terrific demonstrator.

So as I see it, Brits have more to gain from us on Tempest than us from them.

If I were HAL / MOD, I shall have young nosy types stationed in EU Liaison office of HAL and front end 'collaboration' with Brits / French / Germans.

But yes the principles always need to be in place - Don't trust anything White and Don't pay any money. Game for anything else.

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 09 Feb 2019 10:32

Germany and France aren't better off either. They have an army, an Air Force and a navy on paper, but in reality aren't worth a damn. Better to fight the long battle and do everything in house ourselves in increments. These fantasies of foreign partners who will magically help us out of the kindness of their hearts is pure rubbish.

Rakesh wrote:Nam, the British will fleece us.

This will be PAK-FA redux all over again. They will make us invest something upwards of minimum $1 billion and give us squat in return. We will get local assembly, possibly some radar and some weapons assembly. But that is about it. Any technology on the engine (crystal blade), stealth design, GaN foundry, etc (basically the magic juice) will be kept by them only. They are too broke to fund the entire development themselves. So their idea is to rope in India to fund a portion of the development and reap all the benefits in return. And no matter what they write in a contract to convince us otherwise, a bucket of warm piss will have more value.

I agree with the premise of your post, but the application will be a dismal failure. The better option is to go in for the Franco-German project if such an offer does come on the table. Do not touch the British project with a ten foot pole. The Eurofighter debacle was largely due to the British. And the French walked out as a result and gave birth to the Rafale. Even today, the Eurofighter is hobbled by the four nation consortium. Petty squabbles have limited the aircraft's potential.

Why do you think the Germans joined with the French for their sixth generation fighter? The British are untrustworthy, unreliable and too broke. Brexit has made it worse. Britain is done. Germany saw the writing on the wall. The sun set on the British Empire and has moved on. Better to go with a European nation, than join Massa's poodle.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2019 11:05

Arun.prabhu wrote:Germany and France aren't better off either. They have an army, an Air Force and a navy on paper, but in reality aren't worth a damn. Better to fight the long battle and do everything in house ourselves in increments. These fantasies of foreign partners who will magically help us out of the kindness of their hearts is pure rubbish.

There have been successful joint ventures in the past. The LRSAM/Barak 8 between India and Israel is one. The BrahMos program between India and Russia is another. Development of an aircraft platform is a different ballgame all together and prior joint ventures have crashed and burned, i.e. the IL-276 and PAK-FA are good examples.

UK is looking for a financial partner. There is no other incentive for them to rope any nation in otherwise. And that will have its pitfalls.

And I am not advocating that we should jump into either one. But if the UK is planning to offer India a chance to join their program, the French and Germans may not be too far behind. And if India had to choose the viability between the UK program and the Franco-German one, the latter has a far greater chance of succeeding. Also, massa will decide (for the UK) how much cooperation and how much the door should be opened for India. Remember the JETJWG committee? Started off with great promise, but fizzled out.

Take a look at any major UK weapon system and you will see significant foreign (usually Massa) tech in there.

Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carrier --> embarks the F-35B as her main strike component
Vanguard Class SSBN ---> carries the Trident II D5 SLBM as its strategic deterrent
Astute Class SSN ---> carries the Tomahawk Block IV cruise missile
Daring Class DDG ---> carries the Harpoon anti-ship missile
Army Air Corps ---> operates the AH-64 Apache

All maasa tech / platforms. For the UK to develop any of these systems on her own, would make them prohibitively expensive to acquire. Now compare that to the French Military for example...

Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier ---> embarks the Rafale M as her main strike component
Triomphant Class SSBN ---> carries the M45 and M51 SLBM as its strategic deterrent
Rubis Class SSN ---> carries the Exocet AShM and the upcoming Barracuda Class will carry the SCALP naval cruise missile
Horizon Class DDG ---> carries the Exocet anti-ship missile
French Army Light Aviation - operates the Eurocopter Tiger

No one is arguing for or against the viability of their (France & Germany) military. That is neither here nor there. Who has the more viable defence industry, which in turn will result in a successful product? That is the key point. And all those products listed above in the French military are proven in combat, with the exception of the M45 and M51 SLBM (and thank goodness for that). The US products work just as well and in some respects, perhaps better. But at least the French have independence. The UK cannot even sneeze without massa's permission.

And with Brexit, the UK basically gave the EU the middle finger. But the EU is having the last laugh.

Brexit is a mess and the UK is now regretting the decision. The EU cannot wait for them to leave.

India is wise to stay far *AWAY* from the Tempest program. Minefield!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 09 Feb 2019 11:45

Even the franco german platform will have american tech/ip.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Feb 2019 11:48

Excellent point! Any UK tech may have a US foster father, making us vulnerabld to sanctions.If we go for any western JV Franco- German- Italian the best route but it will be v.expensive.With Russia and the French in particular, deals are clear without strings.Israel too where only their tech is used, not US.

On a more modest note, I've said before if we can turn the LCA Mk-2 "stealthy", along with AESA, TVC, etc., we will have a winner on our hands leapfrogging a 4+ bird into 5th- gen territory and saving at least 5 years in the bargain. Twin- engined AMCA can evolve from LCA-S into a 6th- gen. effort leapfrogging the 5th-gen birds. If a 5th-gen. AMCA as envisaged starts flying only post 2030 when the first 6th-gen birds are in the air it would be a questionable effort. If we need a few sqds. of large 5th-gen aircraft for the next decade, the SU- 57 is already available should we want it in an outright buy like the Rafale.if an LCA-S can emerge by 2025 it would be a great effort.There is no light stealth fighter anywhere which woulx be more affordable and attractive for several nations used to flying SE fighters.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2019 11:49

Prasad wrote:Even the franco german platform will have american tech/ip.

Yes, it likely will. Let it come out first. See what the specs are. Still in CGI stage.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Feb 2019 15:39

ummm
you guys heard of this called Brexit ?
ha ha ha

UK is in serious serious trouble. Don't touch with a barge pole for another 5 years.

nam · Post by **nam** » 09 Feb 2019 16:23

I would go for the one who provides the most bang for buck. The first and foremost criteria for joining either Brit or Franco-German is : The jet engine will be produced in India. Period.

Everything else can be negotiated.

I see an opportunity to be the "offshore center", where we provide the hordes and cost advantage of producing in India. Like IT-vity. A joint Indo-Euro design team, with component produced in India to reduce cost. Given that everything will be software driven, we provide the offshore to do the grunt work required for billion lines of code that will go in to these aircrafts.

It is in the interest of Euro to use the "offshore" model. Allows then to compete with the Uncle's jets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Feb 2019 18:06

Vayushakti 2019 Infograph

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1093489656040022016

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 09 Feb 2019 18:37

Rakesh wrote:...

Partnerships happen between parties that are on an equal footing. Israel needs to sell weapons to support their military industrial complex, to gain political allies against the whole damn Middle East and the anti-semites in progressive ranks of political parties around the world. Thus, their straight dealing when it comes to weapon systems. They'll sell anything to anyone. Russia, when we bought Brahmos was bankrupt from the soviet breakup and hard up for cash. We were able to keep them honest. In a manner of speaking. Tell me, how has that worked out with other Indo-Russian defence JVs?

The point I'm trying to make is, the English are vulnerable thanks to Brexit. They need solid trade allies because in the short run, they're going to have severe economic pains. If we want technologies from them, this is the time to enter into JVs. A few billions here or there and we can get some cutting edge technologies from them. Maybe engine tech, maybe GaN, maybe something else... But there is something to be gained. Compared to eight billions for a mere three dozen rafale, that would be a bargain.

And this talk about French tech being without conditions. Yes, in a way it is, to everyone. But here's the problem. During the Falkland war, the French, who had sold anti shipping missiles to Argentina were helping the English and the Argentinians - the former with helping prevent Argentina from procuring more missiles and the latter by providing technical assistance to rectify faulty launchers that probably cost English lives.

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... -Nott.html

So much for France playing straight. France looks out for French interests. Damn everyone else. I'll note that so do and must everyone else.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 09 Feb 2019 19:11

Arun sir, right now we're not in the mode is asking someone's kidneys. Those well be given if things are squeezed too hard. Right now Britain is in better shape than Russia is in. Even then Russians didn't give us engine tech or yasen class. I don't think there is any harm in talking, to see where it goes, but then I have my doubts, esp with Brits

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 09 Feb 2019 20:01

ArjunPandit wrote:Arun sir, right now we're not in the mode is asking someone's kidneys. Those well be given if things are squeezed too hard. Right now Britain is in better shape than Russia is in. Even then Russians didn't give us engine tech or yasen class. I don't think there is any harm in talking, to see where it goes, but then I have my doubts, esp with Brits

We're also much more of a force economically than we were when we bought Brahmos. I'll grant that the two situations aren't exactly the same, but they never are. If our leadership is good, we can milk the Brits to the maximum, just as they would if we were weak.

This distrust has got to go. Or rather, we need to distrust everyone equally, with the exception of Pakistan and China, whom we have to distrust even more because they are in our backyard and they don't have our best interests at heart. But just because we distrust someone doesn't mean we can't exploit them or shouldn't work with them. This notion that the Brits won't share and we'll be at a disadvantage in a partnership implicitly indicates that we consider ourselves inferior to the English. If they won't share after we pay them, then steal what should have been shared but wasn't. If your partner refuses to deal straight we are under no obligation to deal straight ourselves nor are we honor bound to do so. We should have been stealing from the Russians after they refused to play ball with PAKFA for that matter.

In our world, friends spy on steal from friends in the Great Game.

Edit: Oh and as to Uncle Sam having a great deal of control of English materiel, the situation may be changing or may have already changed. Consider that they aren't approaching US to develop the sixth gen fighter. Consider that British Intelligence and quite probably politicians were culpable in setting up the Russian Collusion witch-hunt that is being used to hamstring Trump in the United States - the agency that produced the dossier was based out of England, and the report was compiled by an ex-MI6 spook. The professor who set up one of the low level Trump campaign aides - George papadopoulous, I think - works at Cambridge, I believe and is again connected to their intelligence and the American intelligence community. Seeing as how England has been the most hysterical of all NATO allies about the Russian bogeyman (what with attempted assassinations on English soil and all) and the offending ex-spooks are out and about and haven't been disappeared, I'd wager that the British government approves of and supports the whole witch-hunt for whatever reason (I suspect it has to do with NATO, but I could be wrong.)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2019 21:30

Arun.prabhu wrote:Partnerships happen between parties that are on an equal footing. Israel needs to sell weapons to support their military industrial complex, to gain political allies against the whole damn Middle East and the anti-semites in progressive ranks of political parties around the world. Thus, their straight dealing when it comes to weapon systems. They'll sell anything to anyone. Russia, when we bought Brahmos was bankrupt from the soviet breakup and hard up for cash. We were able to keep them honest. In a manner of speaking. Tell me, how has that worked out with other Indo-Russian defence JVs?

There is no equal footing between parties. Partnerships are always to compensate what the other party lacks. In the UK's case, it is money. That is the only reason for the UK's offer to join the Tempest program.

And you are correct about Israel needing to support their MIC and Russia to get bank rolled, post the Soviet Union. But there were tangible benefits for India on both the LRSAM/Barak 8 missile and the BrahMos missile. There is zero benefit for India from joining the Tempest program. Massa will tell the UK what to do and UK (being an obedient poodle) will follow suit. And like I mentioned earlier, they will write yarns and fables in a contract, which can never be enforced by India.

We were able to keep Russia relatively honest on the BrahMos program, because the Russians did not have Maasa to bankroll them. How can we expect to keep the UK to honour their promises in a contract, when Maasa can bail them out?

Arun.prabhu wrote:The point I'm trying to make is, the English are vulnerable thanks to Brexit. They need solid trade allies because in the short run, they're going to have severe economic pains. If we want technologies from them, this is the time to enter into JVs. A few billions here or there and we can get some cutting edge technologies from them. Maybe engine tech, maybe GaN, maybe something else... But there is something to be gained. Compared to eight billions for a mere three dozen rafale, that would be a bargain.

Yes the UK does need solid trade allies. And I am sure on a number of sectors, there can be some real cooperation between India and UK. However on a sensitive program (such a sixth generation fighter), Massa will ensure that nothing of value is transferred to India. This has got nothing to do with a dislike for India, but rather just to protect Maasa tech.

And what is the guarantee that the UK decides to shut down the Tempest program and move to the US sixth generation fighter program, following the JSF model? What happens to an Indian investment then? We will get nothing and will have lost money as well. Just like the $250 million we lost in the PAK-FA program. The UK is an unreliable ally and follows geopolitical direction from Maasa.

No engine tech, no GaN tech or anything of value will come. And the result will be the same for the Franco-German program. The only difference is that the Franco-German program will actually see the light of day. The Tempest program is as real as Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings. Gandolf will come visiting New Delhi, sprinkle some magic and we may get starry eyed. But like all magic, it is only illusionary. See the next post below this one, for UK's benevolence with regards to the Indian military. The program has to exist.

The French will be unlikely to sign on to a joint venture with Maasa on a sixth generation fighter. It is for the same reason, they never jumped onto the F-35 bandwagon either. They will continue to refine the Rafale program over various tranches to suit their needs for which the budget will come out of French coffers. The Franco-German 6th generation program will be the same. The UK has the luxury of not having to invest scare resources into programs like this. That is the perk of being Maasa's poodle.

Arun.prabhu wrote:And this talk about French tech being without conditions. Yes, in a way it is, to everyone. But here's the problem. During the Falkland war, the French, who had sold anti shipping missiles to Argentina were helping the English and the Argentinians - the former with helping prevent Argentina from procuring more missiles and the latter by providing technical assistance to rectify faulty launchers that probably cost English lives.

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... -Nott.html

So much for France playing straight. France looks out for French interests. Damn everyone else. I'll note that so do and must everyone else.

Every nation does look out for herself. I am not denying that.

But unlike the UK, France has a vested interest in their defence programs. They will ensure that it sees the light of day, regardless of cost overruns. They see the condition of the UK and do not want to her share her fate. Assisting the UK over the Falklands conflict is one thing. Surrendering your sovereignty over to Maasa is a whole other ball game.

Part and parcel of the French looking out for themselves, they will sell to anyone (in reason) with cold hard cash. Countries like India, Qatar, Egypt can afford purchases like the Rafale because they have the money to spend. If India could buy Rafale in 2016, we could get our hands on a future French fighter as well. We just need to show the money. The French do indeed look out for their interests. And the French did not give us engine tech or GaN tech from the Rafale program either, despite the billions we spent on acquiring 36 Rafales. But nobody on this planet will give you that tech. That is their intellectual property. Why should they share it?

But take a look at the Rafale program and compare her capability to the Eurofighter. It is night and day.