Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2016 09:26

As I predicted.The media reports today say that the IAF has told the GOI that the tanker decision is critical and must either be scrapped or anew contest begun. In brief,the A-330 was selected,v.expensive against the Il-76..The IL-76 has now also passed all tech parameters and is the cheapest.It would also be the easiest to induct as we operate the type.The new IL-476s with improved engines,performance,range and payload,plus only 3 crew,in series production should be preferred.Money saved could go into the Raffy deal.Cash crunch is hitting hard.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Jan 2016 15:11

And, we're still talking UAE and Qatari M2Ks when LCA Tejas Mk1a will be able to do everything it does within next 2 years. And we've forgotten how much IAF is paying for upgrading the ones we have.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 25 Jan 2016 17:47

JTull wrote:And, we're still talking UAE and Qatari M2Ks when LCA Tejas Mk1a will be able to do everything it does within next 2 years. And we've forgotten how much IAF is paying for upgrading the ones we have.

We just can't resist a used car deal.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2016 18:15

VivS:They're all Dash 5 Mk2 standard; RDY-2, Topsight, MDPU, OBOGS, glass cockpit.

Customization with Indian IFF, data-link modules, is a relatively modest job that can be performed by HAL without any trouble.

nope...ours are Hs upgraded to a quasi Dash5 std.. hence I designation. These are different airframes.. HAL is yet to upgrade even 1.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jan 2016 18:55

JTull wrote:And, we're still talking UAE and Qatari M2Ks when LCA Tejas Mk1a will be able to do everything it does within next 2 years. And we've forgotten how much IAF is paying for upgrading the ones we have.

Only to cope with a numbers crunch that's supposed to set it right now.

IAF to Phase Out 3 MiG 21, MiG 27 Squadrons This Year to Boost Life

Though I suppose there's a little bit of the used car thing; sometimes its good value, especially when the sheikhs current using it spot something shinier.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jan 2016 19:07

Karan M wrote:VivS:They're all Dash 5 Mk2 standard; RDY-2, Topsight, MDPU, OBOGS, glass cockpit.

Customization with Indian IFF, data-link modules, is a relatively modest job that can be performed by HAL without any trouble.

nope...ours are Hs upgraded to a quasi Dash5 std.. hence I designation. These are different airframes.. HAL is yet to upgrade even 1.

It doesn't need to be the exact same configuration as ours. As long as they can sync with the IAF's C4I systems (DL, IFF, comms) and can hook into the Mirage fleet's existing support chains for spares, consumables, repair and overhauls, some relatively minor variation in terms of avionics (ICMS Mk3-Mk4 IIRC) isn't a big deal.

A major upgrade would have been needed if they were C models faced with impeding obsolescence.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2016 19:28

JTull wrote:And, we're still talking UAE and Qatari M2Ks when LCA Tejas Mk1a will be able to do everything it does within next 2 years. And we've forgotten how much IAF is paying for upgrading the ones we have.

The Mirage 2000s should be longer ranged though.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2016 19:30

Viv S wrote:It doesn't need to be the exact same configuration as ours. As long as they can sync with the IAF's C4I systems (DL, IFF, comms) and can hook into the Mirage fleet's existing support chains for spares, consumables, repair and overhauls, some relatively minor variation in terms of avionics (ICMS Mk3-Mk4 IIRC) isn't a big deal.

A major upgrade would have been needed if they were C models faced with impeding obsolescence.

It is a big deal because a lot of the internal systems, wiring etc will be different and require different maintenance procedures.

IAF had to pay to bring extra Mirage 2000s to its H standard. Ironically we had to pay again to get them to all I standard.

Now we will have to pay to get Mk2 to I standard again.

I wish we could just accelerate LCA and make its last variant into a Mirage 2000 equivalent - extra pylons + fuel. Add a 2 mtr plug to the fuselage. Some RCS reduction too...bridge to AMCA.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2016 22:03

Karan,

Those Mirages are slightly different from the Mirages we have. But still, they are much closer than the Rafales we are forcing ourselves to get.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2016 23:45

And what of long term viability? Taking on j20 and j31 with a m2k based fleet? Heck rather have a reduced rcs lca with more fuel longer fuselage as bridge to amca

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Jan 2016 00:19

I always wanted that. AMCA should be taken up in smaller steps. As a first step, build a stealth-shaped airframe with two existing engines and contemporary LRUs. Start test flying from 2021, and start serial production from 2025-26. We can replace round domes with faceted ones, antennas with body conformant ones, FBW with FBL, LCDs with larger LCDs, more powerful engines as they get ready in tranches.

Buying 36-54 Rafales in 2020 doesn't make much sense to me. We should start consolidating our fleet instead. If required rope in Dassault to accelerate AMCA. They might want to be part of a fifth generation fighter. AMCA may use many LRUs and production techniques/jigs from Rafale!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2016 00:22

Wish - from your thought to MOD's ears!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Jan 2016 04:26

Apparently, HAL delivered the first upgraded Mirage-2000I fighter to the IAF in September, 3 months ahead of schedule. Way to go !

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. delivered the first Mirage 2000 upgraded by the HAL overhaul division to the Indian Air Force in September, three weeks earlier than the official schedule, Dassault’s inhouse magazine reported.

State-owned HAL is Dassault’s local partner on the Mirage upgrade.

That early delivery was due to a “successful first flight” and qualification completed in record time, the report said. Dassault completed midlife upgrade of the first two of 51 Mirages and handed over work for the remaining 49 units to HAL overhaul division in Bangalore, India.

Dassault expects Rafale contract with India within a month

High hopes I must say..to finalise it within a month.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2016 04:52

There was a nice article that spoke of the issues that PAK-FA faces. I admit it may be motivated but I thought there were some valid points. The US has been playing with stealth since 1983 - so they have put in a lot more work. The PAKFA started with a bang and then slowed to a whimper. And the rhetorical question that arose "Is stealth overrated?". To an extent I agree with the sentiment there. The aerodynamic negatives of stealth lead to all sorts of other complexities that raise cost and while the individual aircraft may be a fine work of art, it may not be more effective than "quick-n-dirty" (not really!!) 4-4.5 gen.

I say this in the context of AMCA which I worry about - there is still that thread that I started about that lurking somewhere may be page 5 of this forum

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Jan 2016 00:24

IAF wants fast decision on A-330 MRTT tankers

By Rajat Pandit

NEW DELHI --- A frustrated IAF has asked the defence ministry to take a decision, one way or the other, on its long-pending case for the almost $2 billion acquisition of six Airbus-330 midair refuelling aircraft or tankers to boost the strategic reach of its fighters and bombers.

Stressing the critical operational necessity for fast induction of the tankers, the IAF wants the A-330 MRTT (multi-role tanker transport) deal to be inked as soon as possible, or conversely scrapped, to ensure that a new procurement case can begin afresh.

"The IAF believes the case is just going around in circles without any resolution. It is stuck in the CNC (contract negotiation committee) stage, with Airbus being asked to keep on extending the validity of its commercial bid," said a defence ministry source.

With French President Francois Hollande arriving on a state visit to India on Sunday, there may now be some additional pressure on the NDA government to fast-track the A-330 MRTT deal since the Airbus group is headquartered at Toulouse in France.
...

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 27 Jan 2016 07:45

CAG had recently told Parliamentary Committee that IL-78 were under utilized along with Phalcon.

The Addl. Tanker Deal goes back to a decade and it is indeed surprising that Deal has not been finalized. Probably lack of funds and considering it is not under Priority the deal may be Put on the Back Burner.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Jan 2016 08:09

Kartik, thats great news. Is the upgrade with a RDY2 radar and were the # of pylons increased? From 5 to seven or nine?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Jan 2016 08:09

pkudva wrote:CAG had recently told Parliamentary Committee that IL-78 were under utilized along with Phalcon.

The Addl. Tanker Deal goes back to a decade and it is indeed surprising that Deal has not been finalized. Probably lack of funds and considering it is not under Priority the deal may be Put on the Back Burner.

Pkudva, spares issues with IL-78 and Su-30 availability have been flagged.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Jan 2016 08:53

The issue of spares vis a vis Russia can be genuine or concocted to shill for costly western imports. The point is have we ever placed long term, say 3-7 years order for spares on Russians? Did we ever place big enough orders for building a stockpile? Did Russia fail to fulfill such large orders? What is the timeline for delay?

What is the cost of Russian spares? It seems that Su-30MKI requires around 1 Million USD per annum, while Mirage 2000 requires around 2 Million per annum and Rafale is supposed to require around 5 Million per annum. C-17s require per annum contract of USD 25 Million. What is the spare requirement for il-76/78per annum? Did we issue bulk orders considering we have around 27 aircraft of the type? Did Russia set up new factories to supply spare parts for Syrian war? Are Russian idiots that they don't want to earn money by supplying spares? Was timely orders not given for spares of Tu-142 to create grounds for import of compromised P-8s? Was similar hit job done on Il-76/78s?

Per Chaiwala, Western spares are 5 to 20 times more costly, with big cuts to babus, hence the quasi illusion of promptness. What is the availability of Mirage 2000, Harriers, Jags compared to Su-30MKIs? etc

This issue is way more complicated then presented in 2 Dimensional method by DDM. My case is that Russian equipment scores very high not only in maintenance (for the cost incurred) and also even in LCC comparison as "fuel" is tiny fragment of costs of military equipment compared to capital costs and consumables. Note:- Military sellers are not just commercial entities, they have strategic motive to prevent indigenous development and weaken strategic security of India by down talking Russian equipment which will be difficult to sanction in war.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 28 Jan 2016 14:09

HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 28 Jan 2016 15:11

What is the cost of Russian spares? It seems that Su-30MKI requires around 1 Million USD per annum, while Mirage 2000 requires around 2 Million per annum and Rafale is supposed to require around 5 Million per annum. C-17s require per annum contract of USD 25 Million. What is the spare requirement for il-76/78per annum?

You are trying to compare utilization rates of a fighter with transporters, without factoring in the availability and hours guaranteed per annum. Provide that information, and we can better compare. Also, more info on the C-17 $25 Million per annum contract and what it includes. I think the last time this discussion popped up someone posted a reference to Ajay Shukla's blog, where he had apparently sifted through US budgetary materials and tried to put a number on the cost of the airframe, cost on the engine contracts and the cost of the support contract. He was WRONG in his investigative work, as there is clear evidence that the GISP costs between $5-$6.5 Million per aircraft, per year depending upon how many flight hours you negotiate as your utilization. This is easily searchable information.

Transport aircraft fly a lot more than fighter jets that fly between 200-250 hours per year. The GISP is geared towards those buyers that fly their strategic transporters a fair bit, and still want a high (85-90% with an 80 or 85% MC rate guarantee). As an example, the UK has been able to put well in excess of 1000 hours per aircraft on its C-17 and therefore makes full use of its fixed price annual contract for close to 95% of the consumable spare parts.

We have discussed this point before as well -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5754&start=3040#p1871210

GISP contracts for the UK and USAF are available alongside their utilization rates. One thing about GISP is that it is universal i.e. all partners irrespective of their size of order have equal access to the spare inventory, and the GISP is pegged to the utilization rates i.e you pay a fixed price for 85% availability, where the cost depends upon how many hours of usage you negotiate. . The highest per annum, per aircraft GISP deal that I have ever come across has been that for the USAF's fleet support that comes in at around $6.2 Million per aircraft, but the USAF puts well in excess of the UK's 1250 hours per aircraft per year and therefore has the highest inventory consumption baked into their contracts.

In the UK's cost analysis, they pay Boeing approximately $5000 per hour of flying for all the spares and even some depot level support (its not just a chance to drain the common spare inventory). This comes to (in my estimates based on USAF C-17 operational cost data) to be between 1/3, and 1/4 of the total cost of operating the C-17 where no doubt fuel and manpower consumer a far larger share given that we are talking about a heavy air-lifter here.

What is the cost of Russian spares? It seems that Su-30MKI requires around 1 Million USD per annum, while Mirage 2000 requires around 2 Million per annum and Rafale is supposed to require around 5 Million per annum.

$1 Million, $2 Million, $5 Million for what? And what type of inventory, or even mission capability do you get for that 1, 2 and 5 million?

Per Chaiwala, Western spares are 5 to 20 times more costly, with big cuts to babus, hence the quasi illusion of promptness. What is the availability of Mirage 2000, Harriers, Jags compared to Su-30MKIs? etc

Any evidence or analysis that has led you to believe such a thing?

My case is that Russian equipment scores very high not only in maintenance (for the cost incurred) and also even in LCC comparison as "fuel" is tiny fragment of costs of military equipment compared to capital costs and consumables.

I don't quite understand that, are you implying that fuel is less than the cost of other consumables, such as spare parts, for a given operational period? Again, can you back that up?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Jan 2016 15:24

sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15

From the report above...

Intermediate jet trainer (IJT)

A total of 140 flights carried out during FY 2014-15 taking the cumulative number of flights 1004 sorties. Desirable
stall characteristic were achieved, which is one of the major criteria for certification. High Speed Low Drag (HSLD)
carriage at Out Board pylon, Antiskid testing, all cases of Drop tank jettison by jettisoning partial and empty Drop
tanks had been carried out during the year. Flight tests for Spin performance are planned during 2015-16.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jan 2016 18:33

The IAF wants rafales,tankets,etc.,etc. Where is the moolah for it all going to come if we pay $300M/Rafale? As far as the tanker is concerned,inducting more Il-78s of the upgraded basic IL-476 platform would be the best bet. As the report says,it has met performance reqs.,is the cheapest, and the type is already in service. With earlier reports about all 20+ IL-76 types (including existing Il-78s) being upgraded ,this is the most cost effective way to go.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Jan 2016 19:19

putnanja wrote:
sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15
From the report above...

Intermediate jet trainer (IJT)

A total of 140 flights carried out during FY 2014-15 taking the cumulative number of flights 1004 sorties. Desirable
stall characteristic were achieved, which is one of the major criteria for certification. High Speed Low Drag (HSLD)
carriage at Out Board pylon, Antiskid testing, all cases of Drop tank jettison by jettisoning partial and empty Drop
tanks had been carried out during the year. Flight tests for Spin performance are planned during 2015-16.

If all stall characteristics were achieved then spin recovery procedures should have been validated too, no?

This is contradicting recent media reports that IJT could not achieve stall or spin related IAF requirements.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2016 22:07

Stalling is a necessary but not sufficient condition for spinning.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jan 2016 22:27

sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15

I love the chutzpah of HAL to put HTT-40 on the cover. I absolutely love it. They are turning the page from being license producers to design based manufacturers. Some great pictures and information there. For me, it was the picture of LUH's GTV. Looks good, very good.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jan 2016 22:44

Karan M wrote:VivS:They're all Dash 5 Mk2 standard; RDY-2, Topsight, MDPU, OBOGS, glass cockpit.

Customization with Indian IFF, data-link modules, is a relatively modest job that can be performed by HAL without any trouble.

nope...ours are Hs upgraded to a quasi Dash5 std.. hence I designation. These are different airframes.. HAL is yet to upgrade even 1.

Just a minor correction- HAL apparently delivered the first upgraded Mirage-2000I to the IAF in September. Somehow the news never really filtered out till very recently.

edit: sorry Karan, I didn't see your post in response to the article I'd posted on the delivery.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Jan 2016 22:58

sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15

This is for FY ending March 2015, almost one year ago. By all accounts IJT had not met stall characteristics by then.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2016 03:01

Nakshatra is ready for trials. ADRDE has put out an RFP for Hiring of Aerial Access Platform, and another for Technical services for Monitoring, Operation, Handling and safety of Aerostat Sub-system. The trials will be held in Agra for around 40 days in the months of February and March.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2016 04:44

sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15

KaranM Did you look at the Board of Directors and when they were appointed? One of them was former Air Officer in charge of Maintenance Command. So must be working on the spares issue.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Jan 2016 05:52

JTull wrote:
sankum wrote:HAL ANNUAL REPORT 2014-15
This is for FY ending March 2015, almost one year ago. By all accounts IJT had not met stall characteristics by then.

Even though it was for year ending March 2015, the report appeared to have been published much later. When I was skimming through the reports, I thought I saw photographs etc from around August 2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2016 20:14

This picture must be posted. First run of the Ground Test Vehicle in December 2014

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 29 Jan 2016 22:15

31st March ending Reports are normally compiled in July to Sept.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 01 Feb 2016 09:33

Not sure if this was posted earlier..

MiG-29UPG upgrade programme goes on

http://en.take-off.ru/news/108-nov2012/ ... me-goes-on

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 01 Feb 2016 09:47

India to receive 150 Mi-17V-5 helicopters by year end

http://en.take-off.ru/news/108-nov2012/ ... y-year-end

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 01 Feb 2016 11:06

Look at the SDREs HAL employees gawking at the LUH on the left side.

Honestly I do not know our guys look like they have nothing to do wheras Goras look so TFTA and business like in their Tehama Shirts and shades in similar pictures.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 01 Feb 2016 12:03

indranilroy wrote:This picture must be posted. First run of the Ground Test Vehicle in December 2014

Its made my day, it is sheer beauty. Good to see LUH is taking shape and completed ground run.

We must strongly project this for export market.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Feb 2016 12:21

the individual in the middle. is he, security?

Denis · Post by **Denis** » 01 Feb 2016 13:40

Shreeman wrote:the individual in the middle. is he, security?

Appears to be the fire officer

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Feb 2016 03:16

Are there any updates on the progress of the LUH? That pic dates back to Dec, 2014..a year later we haven't really seen any new pics of the LUH.