Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

[shiv]

When the Narconistas get their manpads, these things will be of limited utility.

This is what I am questioning. The idea that aircraft and pilots should run away and stay clear the minute terrorist get manpads.

In fact this is exactly what terrorists/insurgents want. They would like aircraft to clear out. That leaves them to fight on the ground so that their ground war is against our soldiers. By scaring away the air force with manpads, the insurgents are "levelling the battlefield" so they can take on our soldiers.

If we must prevail, we have to accept that pilots and aircraft will be at greater risk, but they will be there, taking that risk and supporting the men on the ground. Very long ranged PGMs are ultimately going to be ineffective in forested and mountainous regions because of target identification issues unless they are static targets that will wait to get hit. This will require pilots and aircraft to take that risk and be there on the spot, taking the pressure off ground forces.

[NRao]

Here we go again: Air Force readies for Red Flag, its toughest exercise with US

Was a bit surprised to see that the previous IAF participation in Red Flag was way back in 2008, it felt a lot more recent.

And, I have constantly been told by various BRiets that India means IOR:

The demanding "network-centric" exercise will not only give IAF pilots the opportunity to hone their combat skills with the USAF, but also serve to establish IAF's capability to deploy "a trans-continental task force" of fighters, tankers and airlifters across the globe, as was earlier reported by TOI.

So, not just the IN, the IAF is also joining the fun - globally.

Interesting that the IAF and USAF can share a "network".

[deejay]

Folks, I have a visual sighting of C 295 doing maneuvres on dumbell of Runway 27 at HAL airport Bangalore right now.

Okay, it took off.

Grey colour, no other markings!

[Aditya_V]

Can we use these combat Hawks etc. on Maoists, NE insurgents or even gun battles in forests in Kashmir?

[deejay]

Can we use these combat Hawks etc. on Maoists, NE insurgents or even gun battles in forests in Kashmir?

Sure we can. Do we want to?

[Singha]

First hand info is the mi17v has no AC for passengers and it gets very hot until it climbs. The pax are allowed to open windows and get winds. Cellphone SMS mostly works.

Maybe that explains why some AC have individual small fans for the pilots

[deejay]

First hand info is the mi17v has no AC for passengers and it gets very hot until it climbs. The pax are allowed to open windows and get winds. Cellphone SMS mostly works.

Maybe that explains why some AC have individual small fans for the pilots

Yes, I know. Pilot fan's our rarely effective. Even pilots can open their window. Make sure that cockpit door is not opened if window is opened or the sudden pressure differential tends to suck out all maps and paperwork out of the window. I've known a few incidents.

[shiv]

Folks, I have a visual sighting of C 295 doing maneuvres on dumbell of Runway 27 at HAL airport Bangalore right now.

Okay, it took off.

Grey colour, no other markings!

Ahaaaa..Does it signal that something is afoot?

[Manish_P]

This will require pilots and aircraft to take that risk and be there on the spot, taking the pressure off ground forces.

or UCAVs

[shiv]

First hand info is the mi17v has no AC for passengers and it gets very hot until it climbs. The pax are allowed to open windows and get winds. Cellphone SMS mostly works.

Maybe that explains why some AC have individual small fans for the pilots

Minor digression. Even that kick ass Indian Army recruitment ad pretty much admits that tanks (presumably T-72/T-90) don't have AC. Looks like Russians have no need for cooling. Or not much need.

There is the story of one of India's Foxtrots that was making its way from Russian port to tropical waters. When things got hot the AC did not work. On opening up the ducts they found the ducts stuffed with rags, but by then the compressor pistons had failed. They managed to find spares - but that's another story. Meanwhile in India..

[Philip]

BDesh has chosen the YAK-130 as its LIFT/armed light attack bird. The aircraft is doing v.well in sev markets.It appears to be a better bet than the Hawk. A not too distant Vayu had an IAF pilot extolling its virtues. The combination of one bird (jet,not TProp) for both trg. and close support is ideal,unless one has enough moolah for a dedicated aircraft like an A-10,SU-25,etc.

[deejay]

Folks, I have a visual sighting of C 295 doing maneuvres on dumbell of Runway 27 at HAL airport Bangalore right now.

Okay, it took off.

Grey colour, no other markings!

Ahaaaa..Does it signal that something is afoot?

I saw it take off just before dark again. It is here and going through its paces. I am not sure who is it flying with ADA, HAL or ASTE.

I've not heard of progress on the C295 deal for long, so it was good to see it fly here.

[shiv]

At one stage I thought it was "settled" and C 295 selected. But that sank without trace. But good show in spotting and identifying it. My own recognition skills have become rusty and I may have come back and Googled to see what that unidentifiable aircraft might have been.

[Neela]

Can someone comment.
Can paratroopers control the descent rate. The video here from Vayu Shakti 2010 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUBvkiI ... u.be&t=402 ) seems to indicate that it is a hard landing.

[deejay]

At one stage I thought it was "settled" and C 295 selected. But that sank without trace. But good show in spotting and identifying it. My own recognition skills have become rusty and I may have come back and Googled to see what that unidentifiable aircraft might have been.

Hardly a good show if you knew where I was when I spotted it.

[Indranil]

Can someone comment.
Can paratroopers control the descent rate. The video here from Vayu Shakti 2010 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUBvkiI ... u.be&t=402 ) seems to indicate that it is a hard landing.

With conical parachutes, controlling direction and rate of descent is more difficult. In a rectangular parachute, we flare before touch down. But with conical parachutes (which I have never used), a procedure called "Parachute landing fall" is used. What appears like a hard landing is actually an intentional fall to the side or the back (based on the drift) to break the fall. This is especially required for paratroopers who carry extremely heavy gear. They train long and hard for this.

[nachiket]

^^Why do paratroopers use conical parachutes which cannot be steered? I've always wondered about this.

[Indranil]

To keep paratroopers together in a bunch.

[nachiket]

To keep paratroopers together in a bunch.

But since the rectangular ones can be steered a bit, it would be easier for all of them to land near where they are supposed to right? Instead of being blown off course due to wind etc.?

[Indranil]

They don't want to give the soldier that autonomy. They all jump together (very close to each other), drift together, and land together. They don't want paratroopers to fly into or away from each other.

[nachiket]

Understood. Thanks.

[Neela]

Thanks IndranilJi. Very informative.
Two things I observed in the video.
The An-32 ( ? ) has rails/wires running up until the end of passenger section of fuselage and the parachutes are hooked to it. It appears the paratroopers jump from the aircraft with the wires still hooked and they are guided out of the aircraft through them.

Just before the fall, you can see the soldier tugging hard at the parachute cables.

[ramana]

So no updates on the two LGBs at IronFist 2016?

[Indranil]

Thanks IndranilJi. Very informative.
Two things I observed in the video.
The An-32 ( ? ) has rails/wires running up until the end of passenger section of fuselage and the parachutes are hooked to it. It appears the paratroopers jump from the aircraft with the wires still hooked and they are guided out of the aircraft through them.

Just before the fall, you can see the soldier tugging hard at the parachute cables.

No need for "ji".

It is not the An-32. Those wires are actually pretty standard and part of the Static line system. Wiki has a good description of the same. The paratroopers are not tugging the parachute cables to deploy them. That is done by the static line system. They are just trying to keep the risers from whip lashing into their bodies when the parachute deploys. It is part of the posture they attain while the parachute deploys, which can be a violent event. The deploying of the parachute is a "welcome shock".

The designers of the parachute have to design the system carefully. If the deployment is too fast the para trooper suffers injuries (can even die). However, as the rate of deployment slows down, the altitude of the drop has to be increased, which comes with its own set of problems. So, the designers design the deployment system in such a way that in most cases, a paratrooper suffers only bruises at worst.

[GeorgeWelch]

Red Flag Alaska coverage from https://twitter.com/livefist

[member_24684]

BDesh has chosen the YAK-130 as its LIFT/armed light attack bird. The aircraft is doing v.well in sev markets.It appears to be a better bet than the Hawk. A not too distant Vayu had an IAF pilot extolling its virtues. The combination of one bird (jet,not TProp) for both trg. and close support is ideal,unless one has enough moolah for a dedicated aircraft like an A-10,SU-25,etc.

For that should we move on the Yak 130, here is how the Combat Hawk look like

[KBDagha]

#HAL turnover surges to Rs 16,524 cr for FY 2015-16. Creates record with 17 Hawks produced in the year. Source: AKM Twitter

[rohitvats]

To keep paratroopers together in a bunch.

But since the rectangular ones can be steered a bit, it would be easier for all of them to land near where they are supposed to right? Instead of being blown off course due to wind etc.?

Just to add: The static line jump happens from much lower altitude and the parachute deploys immediately as the paratrooper exits the aircraft (because the chord used to open the parachute is rigged to a 'static line'). The aim of static line jump is to ensure that maximum number of paratroopers fall on or as close to DZ as possible. Free fall is used by small body of troops. And also requires more training than vanilla para-jump. Not all army paratroopers are free-fall qualified.

[JayS]

Red Flag Alaska coverage from https://twitter.com/livefist

Why couldn't they have better devnagari font? I hate this ugly font. Looks rather shabby to my eyes.

BTW any info on what path they are taking to Alaska??

[NRao]

Bahrain, Egypt, France, Portugal and Canada

[Indranil]

Just to add: The static line jump happens from much lower altitude and the parachute deploys immediately as the paratrooper exits the aircraft (because the chord used to open the parachute is rigged to a 'static line'). The aim of static line jump is to ensure that maximum number of paratroopers fall on or as close to DZ as possible. Free fall is used by small body of troops. And also requires more training than vanilla para-jump. Not all army paratroopers are free-fall qualified.

Rohit,
You are right that static lines are very useful for short altitude jumps. But they don't help in grouping the paratroopers together. For example, most of the times, Russians don't use a static line. They use a stabilizing chute instead. Some believe that the Russian system groups the paratroopers better. Also, conical parachutes and static lines are not tied together. One can jump from a static line using a rectangular parachute.

Besides, there are other disadvantages of the static line + D-bag system. Because the lines and the D-bags are flaying behind the aircraft, they increase the drag significantly. As a result, the aircraft generally cannot drop the same number of paratroopers as the number that it can carry. Also, two or more personnel have to stay back and pull the lines and D-bags in. Till this is done, the aircraft can't close the doors which act like giant airbrakes. As a result, the aircraft can't accelerate till the D-bags are pulled in and the doors are closed. On the other hand, the Russians paratroopers leave nothing behind on the plane. Hence the plane can drop the same number of paratroopers as it can carry, require nobody to pull the lines in, close the doors as soon as the last paratrooper has exited, and be on their way as soon as possible.

Additionally, the drops can happen at speeds of up to 400 kmph. Paratroopers can exit from the front door (in front of the engine) allowing the equipment to be dropped from the rear ramp simultaneously. On the other hand, the Americans have a separate drop zones for personnel and and a different one for equipment.

[Indranil]

Can somebody find me a link to the description of the aero-conical parachute that Indian paratroopers are using. The parachutes shown in the recent exercises raise questions in my mind. They seem quiet outdated.

By the way, I found out that the next generation of parachutes being developed by ADRDE use the stabilizing chute concept instead of the static line for reasons described above. It is called the PTA G-2 Parachute System.

[Indranil]

Answering my own question.

In Vayu Shakti 2010, they used the PTA-M which is quite state-of-the-art. There is also the PTR-M, which is also conical but used for drops from higher altitudes.

However, the parachutes shown in Iron Fist 2016 are quiet interesting. There are no perforations or holes. Those parachutes should be prone to pendulum effect, and be extremely difficult to steer. Any details on these parachutes will be greatly appreciated.

[Kartik]

NEW DELHI — Airbus has offered to transfer the final assembly line of its AS565 MBe Panther from France to India if it wins the bid for the country’s proposed naval utility helicopter (NUH).

“If there is an interest in India, we will make this [country] our global hub for the production of the Panther helicopters,” says Pierre de Bausset, president and managing director of Airbus in India.

The contract for the supply of 110 NUHs is estimated to be worth around $2 billion.

Saying that Airbus has integrated the “Make in India” initiative into its helicopter strategy, the Airbus executive says, “Airbus Helicopters has decided to establish a joint venture company with Mahindra Defense with the objective to become the private strategic partner on helicopter platforms.”

Airbus has also proposed to partner with India’s Tata to produce the C295 military transport aircraft in India to replace the Indian air force’s aging Avro aircraft fleet.

India last year approved Airbus’ bid to sell 56 C295 airplanes, of which 16 of these twin-turboprop tactical airlifter aircraft will be supplied in a flyaway condition from the company’s existing production facility in Seville, Spain. The remaining 40 aircraft will be assembled in partnership with Tata at the proposed final assembly line in India.

“Technical evaluations are currently on and field evaluation trials will be undertaken in the near future,” De Bausset says, adding, “This is a tangible opportunity to translate ‘Make in India’ into reality. Moreover, when the program [starts], we strongly believe that production will not stop at 56 but will increase to cover additional Indian and global orders.” Airbus Group’s “Make in India” strategy includes establishing the country as a production hub, training medium firms to become Airbus suppliers and playing matchmaker among suppliers. The company’s sourcing from India jumped over tenfold in 2007-15. It exceeded $400 million in 2014 and $500 million in 2015 and is growing.

“We expect to spend more than $2 billion on civil and defense procurement in India in the five years to 2020,” De Bausset says.

But this depends on Airbus winning more contracts and India relaxing its existing foreign direct investment rules, which restrict foreign ownership of Indian defense ventures to 49%, he says.

“Some of the partners that we are working with will need us for a lot before they become the real champions that India has in mind,” he says. “Fair business means that we need to have levels of control that are appropriate for the risk we are taking. Setting a limit at 49% or whatever comes is not going to cut it.”

India raised the foreign direct investment limit in the defense sector from 26% to 49% in 2014. But global defense firms have been asking for it to be raised again.

From Aviationweek. The bolded part about the C-295 may explain the flying activity seen by some of our posters at Bangalore

[member_29001]

If SAAB Gripen were to be manufactured in India, will it include ToT on GKN engine?

[shiv]

If SAAB Gripen were to be manufactured in India, will it include ToT on GKN engine?

This question cannot be answered until negotiations take place in they do. The engine is American and the Swedes don't have the right to give us any tech. My personal sense is that engine technology will not be transferred - not least because some of it is actual experience and human skill that goes into design. Copying a design does not amount to learning how to create engines.

[brar_w]

SAAB, unilaterally cannot offer to sell technology that isn't theirs . I believe the radar falls in the same bucket, therefore unless there is a concerted multi-company/Nation effort to market for sale Tech Transfer, SAAB can only offer the components that it makes. The Engine is GE's to sell, let alone transfer Technology on, hence the Gripen isn't ITAR free. Although hypothetically a technology transfer on the engine can be negotiated, but for all practical purposes it wouldnt by any nation simply because the reluctance on the part of GE and the US DOD/DOS would essentially force kill any effort to do so. One lesson learnt from the MMRCA should be to de-link acquisition of technology from acquisition of aircraft as much as possible..since one is extremely complicated and slow to proceed and ends up jeapordizing the other. Agreements like the DTTI with other nations are a far better vehicle to look to co-develop, or outright acquire technology as the negotiations can take their on course. Funding local industry through meaningful offsets is still the best way to get some of the FOREX used up for an international deal to flow back in with TOT still being largely an outlier globally.

[vaibhav.n]

Answering my own question.

In Vayu Shakti 2010, they used the PTA-M which is quite state-of-the-art. There is also the PTR-M, which is also conical but used for drops from higher altitudes.

However, the parachutes shown in Iron Fist 2016 are quiet interesting. There are no perforations or holes. Those parachutes should be prone to pendulum effect, and be extremely difficult to steer. Any details on these parachutes will be greatly appreciated.

Indranil,

PTR type is old primarily used for the initial training jumps, PTA is the standard now. There is a newer Mk2 in development.

In our system the IAF uses its own riggers for paratroopers drop while the IA runs the heavier logistic drops.

[JayS]

If SAAB Gripen were to be manufactured in India, will it include ToT on GKN engine?

More than 90% parts of RM12 are still manufactured by GE. And they have helped in designing some other parts such as FADEC. The only part, I think, may not have ITAR coming along with it is Afterburners. So they cannot give us any ToT as such. Even if they do, it will carry ITAR anyway. We can get better deal from GE directly with respect to F414 I would say.

In my opinion GTRE is far ahead in terms of design capabilities of a jet engine. Manufacturing of certain components is definitely one thing we can learn from them (but again don't hope for core technologies as such, apart from may be Blisks, which also might be difficult to get ToT'ed since its attached to F135 and F119 engines and is mainly situated in US plants). Other important thing we can learn is Life management System (MRO) that is there for RM12. That one is GKN thing mostly. Not a hard-core tech as such, but it takes time to build such systems.

I don't know how many here know this but RM12 was seriously considered for LCA. Volvo backed off because of GE/US pressure. And GTRE wanted volvo to review entire Kaveri design (which is funny since GTRE itself does far more design work (entire engine) than Volvo has done so far (only LP compressors)). They backed of there as well for some reason.

[rvishwak]

Lots of IAF jets...guess Sukhois taking off from Mumbai today.

Anything special?

Two of them are taking off one after another...first one at 10 AM, next at 2 Pm and just now at 8:20 Pm