Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 10 Mar 2016 14:13

there is no money to buy MMRCA even 36. india is not blessed with the worlds reserve currency as its domestic currency. end of story.

as for the sukhoi, GOI has already made russia agree to bigger repair depots here and IAF will also have to keep aside money for more stock of spares and long lead items. it cannot push all of the issue to HAL.

AF have to move in sync with the country's resources, not function as a independent squadron of Le hospitaller knights who live to only ride the finest horses , joust, fight and occupy the commanding heights of glory on the kings personal budget.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 10 Mar 2016 15:55

+1

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2016 19:46

Singha wrote:there is no money to buy MMRCA even 36. india is not blessed with the worlds reserve currency as its domestic currency. end of story.

as for the sukhoi, GOI has already made russia agree to bigger repair depots here and IAF will also have to keep aside money for more stock of spares and long lead items. it cannot push all of the issue to HAL.

AF have to move in sync with the country's resources, not function as a independent squadron of Le hospitaller knights who live to only ride the finest horses , joust, fight and occupy the commanding heights of glory on the kings personal budget.



Sad to say but so far IAF picture/portrait has been that.
And the King cannot buy showcase systems at inflated prices to pad his palace and his cronies.

Augusts helicopter deal as one example.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Mar 2016 20:58

IAF like the other two service can ask for the Moon but it is for GOI of the day to come to some value judgement and prioritise any purchase over others. GOI can always cancel MMRCA or other deals as it is its prerogative to do so.

MOD on the other hand would want to negotiate till eternity as Parrikar says wants to get the best deal and lowest price :((

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 10 Mar 2016 21:11

AF have to move in sync with the country's resources, not function as a independent squadron


Agree. It is about playing a role. As a mature player. Cannot overplay and then expect others to balance the situation. Asking for anything and everything only leads to undue and unnecessary friction and waste of time, which is what is happening.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby VKumar » 10 Mar 2016 21:29

What was that news about a Hawk combat version? If true, it's the diametric opposite of Rafale. Where would it fit in? Had seen one Omani AF Hawk jet at Muscat airport.
Why Hawk and not more LCA?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2016 15:38

“Iron Fist” exercise to showcase air force’s war readiness

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/03/i ... e-air.html

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th March 16

Next week, at the Pokhran firing ranges in Rajasthan, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will let Pakistan and China know it is ready for war at short notice. In a massive firepower display, some two hundred IAF fighters will rain bombs and missiles on targets spread across the desert. Watching this will be a flock of defence and air attachés, flown down from Delhi for the spectacle.

This is Exercise Iron Fist 2016, a once-in-three-years firepower demonstration that is part of what strategists term “deterrence signalling”. It is a shot across the bows of potential adversaries, to dissuade them from harming Indian national interests.


Briefing the media in New Delhi on Thursday, IAF vice-chief, Air Marshal Birender Dhanoa, cited former US president Theodore Roosevelt’s famous exhortation, “Speak softly and carry a big stick”.

Said Dhanoa: “Exercise Iron Fist 2016 demonstrates the business end of the IAF; the Big Stick; our capability to deter.” The same message is sent out by the Iron Fist 2016 logo, which is: “Demonstrating the capability to punish. Weapons…On Target…On Time”.

The IAF says Iron Fist 2016 will involve 181 aircraft demonstrating 69 missions. There will be 103 fighters, including the Tejas, Mirage 2000, Sukhoi-30, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Hawk advanced jet trainer. Also on display will be 59 helicopters including the Mi-17V-5 transport helicopter, Mi-35 attack helicopter, and the Dhruv and Light Combat Helicopter.

Synchronised waves of fighters will fly in from different IAF bases across the western sector. This involves close coordination by the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS), which would similarly direct fighters into various combat theatres during wartime.

Says Dhanoa: “The IAF will demonstrate in Exercise Iron Fist, its capability to fight an adversary’s army, navy and air force… and to win a war both during day and night. [This] capability [has been] demonstrated only by our air force in the sub-continent. This is a major change that has taken place in the last ten years.”


Curiously, given the exercise’s aim of deterrence signalling, the Pakistani and Chinese defence attaches to India will not have front row seats for Exercise Iron Fist 2016. In fact, the IAF confirms that neither country’s representatives will even attend.

Defence ministry officials explain that Pakistani and Chinese attaches were not invited because those countries did not invite Indian defence attaches for their air exercises, even after New Delhi expressly conveyed interest in having them attend.

IAF sources confirm that, in December, the Indian air attaché in Islamabad was kept away from the Pakistan Air Force’s firepower display at the Sonmiani ranges, near Karachi. Similarly, the Indian air attaché in Beijing was not invited to the Chinese air force’s elite Golden Helmet exercise.

Unusually, the IAF is playing the international spotlight over indigenous platforms. The Tejas light combat aircraft will display its excellent “swing role capability” by, in a single pass, delivering a laser-guided bomb to a ground target and firing an air-to-air missile at a simulated enemy fighter.

The Defence R&D Organisation’s (DRDO’s) Akash surface-to-air missile, which is being deployed to defend IAF bases from enemy fighters, will demonstrate firing. So too will the DRDO’s well-regarded Astra air-to-air missile, which a Sukhoi-30MKI will fire at a simulated enemy that is “beyond visual range” (BVR).

The indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) will fire rockets at tank targets. The airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system, which the DRDO unveiled at the Bahrain Air Show last month, will also be on display. This features Indian radar and command software, mounted on a Brazilian Embraer aircraft.

Dhanoa, walking the “Make in India” line, stated: “The IAF, contrary to popular belief has achieved significant indigenization. If you take an IAF base as a platform to project air power, akin to a naval ship, its total indigenous content is 52%. This includes all its aircraft, its missile systems, radar, communications network, infrastructure, and the IACCS that is indigenous developed, right from the design stage. This compares reasonably with a (war)ship having about 55% indigenous content.”


While demonstrations like Iron Fist serve a deterrence purpose, the real training takes place in internal exercises like the IAF’s recently concluded “Live Wire” exercise; or next summer’s Red Flag exercise in the US, a major international event for which the IAF will be flying across four Su-30MKIs, four Jaguars, two C-17 Globemaster IIIs and two air-to-air refuellers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2016 16:01

>>C-17 Globemaster IIIs

is there a contractual CISMOA clause to state the full name of the c17 in all govt releases? I have noticed this peculiar feature......they always add the long winded globemaster III even in twitter messages.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2016 16:05

Why just Su-30MKI and Jags for RedFlag , why not the M2K or Mig-29 for change or for that matter Mig-21Bison

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 11 Mar 2016 17:00

Singha wrote:>>C-17 Globemaster IIIs

is there a contractual CISMOA clause to state the full name of the c17 in all govt releases? I have noticed this peculiar feature......they always add the long winded globemaster III even in twitter messages.


The original "Globemaster" was the MD's C-74. Then came the "Globemaster II", MD's C-124. By then MD merged with Boeing (1990ish). And Boeing continued to manufacture MD's C-17 Globamaster III. The first two had piston engines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kvraghav » 13 Mar 2016 19:20

Comparing airbase to a ship is not valid since what would they then compare a naval base to?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 13 Mar 2016 20:49

Curtains for SRSAM program and even MRSAM numbers if this report is true.http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... n=COLUMBIA

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 13 Mar 2016 20:50

VKumar wrote:What was that news about a Hawk combat version? If true, it's the diametric opposite of Rafale. Where would it fit in? Had seen one Omani AF Hawk jet at Muscat airport.
Why Hawk and not more LCA?

:D Should I tell him? :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Mar 2016 22:21

Karan M wrote:Curtains for SRSAM program and even MRSAM numbers if this report is true.http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... n=COLUMBIA


Hmm...the noises about Russian gear continue, both s400 and grigorovich ....But the much hyped meeting with putin seemed to be a flop. Not to mention additional mki. And then you have the talk of second mrca line and what not...all the time defence capex is not really skyrocketing..totally confused

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rahul M » 13 Mar 2016 23:01

Austin wrote:Why just Su-30MKI and Jags for RedFlag , why not the M2K or Mig-29 for change or for that matter Mig-21Bison

m2k : host may not be that interested
m29 : range & maintenance issues
bison : range, single engined and not reliable for long flights.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 15 Mar 2016 19:12

India's HAL Seeks Partners for New Regional Aircraft

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... l-aircraft

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 17 Mar 2016 16:19

IAF's depleting assets preclude two-front war option
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

http://www.janes.com/article/58847/iaf- ... war-option

Key Points


IAF leaders are increasingly concerned by the atrophying of their fighter force
India's strategic precept of being able to fight a two-front war is being fatally undermined

The Indian Air Force (IAF) sounded an alarm on 10 March by declaring that its rapidly depleting fighter inventory was "grossly" inadequate to fight a two-front war against Pakistan and China.

"Our [fighter] aircraft numbers are not adequate to execute a full air campaign in a two-front scenario," IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal B S Dhanoa declared in New Delhi. "We have conveyed our concerns to the government, which is aware of the problem," he stated, but did not elaborate, while briefing media on the IAF's 'Iron Fist' firepower demonstration at Pokhran in the western Rajasthan desert, due to take place on 18 March.

AM Dhanoa admitted that the imminent delivery of eight supplementary Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters to Pakistan would "make life more difficult" for the IAF, as it would need to employ scarce additional hi-tech platforms to tackle them during a conflict.

The IAF's prevailing combat capability is at its lowest in over a decade, with its fighter squadrons having decreased to 33: nine less than the sanctioned 42 squadrons. According to India's parliamentary defence committee, these will be reduced further to 25 by 2022 as 10 squadrons of legacy MiG-21 and MiG-27 upgraded variants will be retired from 2016-17.

In its April 2015 report to parliament, the committee declared that "swift remedial measures" were needed to prevent the enduring drawdown of the IAF's fighter fleet.

Besides the 10 ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons, the IAF's fighter assets include six Jaguar squadrons - all awaiting engine, avionics, and weaponry upgrades - and 11 squadrons of licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, which will eventually increase to 15 by 2019-20. Three squadrons each of Mirage 2000Hs and MiG-29s - presently undergoing retrofits - complete the IAF's fighter inventory.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Mar 2016 17:10

15 Su-30 MKI + 3 MiG-29 + 3 Mirage 2000 + 6 Jaguar = 30 squadrons. Never mind, 6 LCA.

So how is the journo above stating 25 by 2022.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kit » 17 Mar 2016 17:33

Dont know even with a 55 squadron strength India would fight a 2 front war against PK and CN !! .. the answer to that is to create another front in china's flank by another country ..preferably a nuclear armed one !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 17 Mar 2016 18:26

That article is bit off on total planned Su-30MKI squadrons. The IAF originally had plans for around 13 squadrons. So that would make it 25 squadrons (13 Su-30MKI + 3 MiG-29 + 3 Mirage-2000 + 6 Jaguar) once remaining MiG-21/27 retire. 6 LCA squadrons would be on top of those numbers.

Indian Air Force to raise four more squadrons of Su-30 MKI fighter
Oct 5, 2012
...
On IAF's future plans to induct Su-30MKIs in the force, he said, "One more squadron will be based in Punjab and one will be in Southern Command in Thanjavur. Therefore, we will have 13-14 total squadrons of Sukhoi to add to our strength."
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 17 Mar 2016 19:26

kit wrote:Dont know even with a 55 squadron strength India would fight a 2 front war against PK and CN !! .. the answer to that is to create another front in china's flank by another country ..preferably a nuclear armed one !


Based on the cost of modern fighter jets and current Indian defense budget, 55 squadron strength is not feasible. Not even 45 or 40 and still expect to keep all up to date, attain high serviceability rates and have sufficient support force multipliers. A lot of the old "cheap" Russian fighters are retiring or have retired, and if India thinks it can get to 42 squadrons with very expensive Rafale then that is just a pipe dream for now. The price of one Rafale (~$300 million) would have been equivalent to one full squadron of MiG-21/27. To fill up numbers, the IAF will have to buy plenty of cheap fighters like the LCA Mk.1 (~$30 million/unit) to get it to around 35 squadrons within budget limits. Either that or increase the defense budget exponentially.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 17 Mar 2016 19:48

Austin wrote:Why just Su-30MKI and Jags for RedFlag , why not the M2K or Mig-29 for change or for that matter Mig-21Bison


How would you get a Mig-21 to Red Flag? (Short of stripping off the wings and shipping it to Nevada inside a C-17.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Mar 2016 05:48

srai wrote:
kit wrote:Dont know even with a 55 squadron strength India would fight a 2 front war against PK and CN !! .. the answer to that is to create another front in china's flank by another country ..preferably a nuclear armed one !


Based on the cost of modern fighter jets and current Indian defense budget, 55 squadron strength is not feasible. Not even 45 or 40 and still expect to keep all up to date, attain high serviceability rates and have sufficient support force multipliers. A lot of the old "cheap" Russian fighters are retiring or have retired, and if India thinks it can get to 42 squadrons with very expensive Rafale then that is just a pipe dream for now. The price of one Rafale (~$300 million) would have been equivalent to one full squadron of MiG-21/27. To fill up numbers, the IAF will have to buy plenty of cheap fighters like the LCA Mk.1 (~$30 million/unit) to get it to around 35 squadrons within budget limits. Either that or increase the defense budget exponentially.


If they want numbers then LCA is the only choice. Can't keep doubling up on twin engined phoren fighters for much longer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2016 07:35

is the C17 capable of lifting dhruvs, rudra and lch to leh and thoise type places?

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Mar 2016 12:23

Iron fist 2016, live on DD @ 1600..

IAF, demonstrating their capability to punish ! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2016 12:34

mashallah the camerawork will be better this time. they could barely follow in-flight bombs last time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2016 12:43

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:Why just Su-30MKI and Jags for RedFlag , why not the M2K or Mig-29 for change or for that matter Mig-21Bison


How would you get a Mig-21 to Red Flag? (Short of stripping off the wings and shipping it to Nevada inside a C-17.)


Yes they can just disassemble the 21 or for that matter even the 29 or M2K and fly it on C-17 and assemble it back. Unless they want to fly all the way with many hops with 3 tanks on

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 18 Mar 2016 14:20

4:40 pm to 7:30 PM is the call.

locked n loaded.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Mar 2016 14:27

There was a news report which mentioned that sino pak military attaches won't be present As they had not invited Indian military attache for their exercises.

With the tag line for Iron fist 2016 being "demonstrate the capability to punish", we should have made an exception for pakis out of the goodness of our hearts and invited them.
Lost chance to rub it in.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 14:54

From latest Parliamentary report. Note the status of AL-55I which was hidden.

Also, confirms BAE and spin trials - another 2 years plus if HAL even gets that done in a short time.

Present Status of IJT.
The Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) for the IJT scheduled in
2004 has still not been achieved as the IJT project has encountered design flaws, which
prevent it from being cleared for safe execution of Stall and Spin. HAL had contracted
BAES of UK as a consultant for resolving the Stall and Spin issues on 26 December 2012.
The joint analysis by HAL and BAES revealed that major Structural modifications will have
to be incorporated in the IJT for it to achieve the requisite spinning characteristics.

2.The IJT after undergoing structural modifications would need to be again flight
tested for handling characteristics in the entire flight envelope before undertaking Stall
tests prior to Spin testing. The entire flight test campaign for ‘Spin Testing’ on a trainer
class of aircraft is time consuming and can take minimum two to five years to certify the
trainer aircraft for ‘.Spinning’.

3. The Russian OEM initially delivered the ‘AL-55i’ engine for IJT with a ‘Time Between
Overhaul’ (TBO) of only 100 hours against the contracted specification of 1200 hours.
After three years, the Russian OEM has increased the ‘Time Between Overhaul’ to 300
hours.


4. All Design & Development Projects have an inherent risk of not succeeding. There
is always a scope to induct systems off a Design & Development Project with marginally
lower performance with an aim to improve its performance in future but such a scope does
not exist while inducting the IJT, wherein in the shortfalls have ‘Training Inadequacy’ and
‘Flight Safety’ implications. HAL is still carrying out redesigning of the IJT

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 14:56

Future Flying Training Pattern in IAF and Action Taken.

In view of the slow progress in the Design & Development process of IJT wherein
the aircraft performance, aero-engine life and induction timelines cannot be predicted and
the reality of Kiran aircraft retiring before induction of IJT, Air HQ has been in the process
of ascertaining various options to conduct Intermediate Flying Training. Recently, Air HQ
has also studied the feasibility of conducting ‘Two Aircraft Type Flying Training’ pattern
instead of the currently followed ‘Three Aircraft Type Flying Training’ pattern. In the
revised pattern trainee pilots will graduate directly from the Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) to
‘Hawk’ Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) for which the trainees will be given increased flying
training on both the BTA and the AJT. ‘PC-7 Mk II’ recently inducted in IAF for Stage-I
flying training of ab-initio pilots, is an excellent basic trainer as per the feedback from
Training Command and the ‘Hawk’ AJT is already operational in IAF for Stage-III flying
training of fighter pilots. IAF has decided to introduce ‘

Two Aircraft Type Flying Training’
pattern wherein Stage-I will be conducted on the BTA and flying of Stage-II will be suitably
32
divided between BTA and AJT from the ‘Flying Course’ commencing in June 2015. The
number of flying trainees being switched from ‘Three Aircraft Type Flying Training’ pattern’
to ‘Two Aircraft Type Flying Training’ pattern will be initially low and will progressively
increase commensurate to the increase in the number of BTA inducted.
6.
In view of the observations of C&AG, all payments for IJT were stopped from
financial year 2013-14. DDP, MoD has been asked to continue with Design and
Development activities on the IJT but the series production of IJT should be put on hold
until Stall & Spin related issues are fully resolved and the Standard of Preparation is
frozen/approved by Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 15:00

MOF making a cut (guess who runs it?) in RE and BE both for IAF. Luckily RE is postulated to be improved.

Recommendation (Paragraph No. 20)
For the year 2014-15, the BE projection was Rs.89,481.74crore while BE allocation
was that of Rs.54,217.52 crore. The projection and allocation made at RE 2014-15 stage
were Rs.61,316.75crore and Rs.53,896.54 crore respectively. It is observed that the fund
provided at RE stage is even less than the amount committed at BE stage, leave aside
provision of additional grants at RE stage! The Committee opine that RE allocation being
even lesser than the BE allocations, the budgetary trend needs severe corrections.
Unfortunately, non-seriousness of Government towards needs of Air Force is visible in the
budget pattern which needs to be relooked into with all gravity. In relation to this, the
Committee desire that corrective measures be taken, at once, so as to ensure that the
27
Service does not suffer for want of resources. The Committee be informed about the
same.
Reply of the Government
Lesser allocation in RE as compared to BE is due to cut imposed by Ministry of
Finance at RE stage. However, additional requirement of funds, as required by the
Services, will be projected for inclusion in the Supplementary Grants


Guys, forget Rafale is what I'd say. Or the MRCA for now.

This observation of the Committee was conveyed to the Ministry of Finance vide D.O. No.
3(7)/Bud-I/61/DefSecy/2015 dated 18
th
May, 2015. Response has been received from
Ministry of Finance vide D.O. letter No. 2(30)-B(AC)/2014 dated 22
nd
June, 2015 (copy
attached).
In
their
reply
Ministry
of
Finance
has
stated
that
the observations/recommendations of the Standing Committee on Defence are mostly relating
to inadequate allocation of funds for different Services with specific reference to important
schemes/projects. Ministry of Finance recognize these commitments and at the time of
formulation of budget/revised estimates, resources are allocated on the basis of trend of
expenditure, the absorptive capacity in the financial year and the fiscal space available to
Government.


In short, itna hi hain tumhare liye..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 15:01

In fact, without the LCA, IAF is quite firmly, looking at zero progress. The MOD/MOF either intentionally or unintentionally, will have ensured IAF seriousness towards 6 squadrons.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Mar 2016 15:05

This might turn out to be the best defence related reform by goberment for the long haul.
Iron fist broadcast has started btw...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 15:24

Is there an online link?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 18 Mar 2016 15:27

Karan M wrote:Is there an online link?


http://webcast.gov.in/live/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rakall » 18 Mar 2016 15:29

Karan M wrote:Is there an online link?


this is working for me..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85GUYk5507o

and normally this must work.. (though on my PC I have some problem connecting to this)
http://webcast.gov.in/live/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 15:40

Thanks guys

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nirav » 18 Mar 2016 15:52

Air chief Raha- This fire power demo is just the tip of the iceberg compared to the actual firepower of your air force.

Yallah !!!!

Started with a surprise bang. Sonic boom by Mig 29 ! :rotfl:
Last edited by nirav on 18 Mar 2016 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Mar 2016 15:54

Iron Fist logo has a Griffin LGB


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