Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 26 Mar 2016 20:56

Viv S wrote:Interesting. You didn't the find this sudden generosity on the part of BAE (sharing profits/workshare with HAL) curious at all?


OK I will add one more point - in red - to the list I made earlier
shiv wrote:The information I have got from BRF is
1. HAL should stop thinking about anything else and deliver on LCA
2. Combat Hawk is a useless idea and IAF should not use it
3. Even export customers will not like it
4. Export customers will not like it because...
5. Here is a long list of aircraft that are cheaper and better for others to buy rather than HALs idiotic idea..
6. HAL is stupid BAe is diabolically clever


But the point I made earlier still holds. I am still fascinated by the writhing, kicking about, hand wringing and shrill cries of horror that HAL wants to do something. And the desperate attempts to shore up arguments with more of same

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 26 Mar 2016 21:14

shiv wrote:But the point I made earlier still holds. I am still fascinated by the writhing, kicking about, hand wringing and shrill cries of horror that HAL wants to do something. And the desperate attempts to shore up arguments with more of same


HAL has enough 'somethings' on its plate. Its influential, not stupid. Its got plenty of pull in South Block. And if it does manage score fresh orders from the MoD (which is the only reason BAE is flitting around), that'll be another production line, soaking up valuable skilled manpower and other resources, that should have been converting to Tejas production.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 26 Mar 2016 21:19

While I may be wrong, the Dream Hawk does still look like a high end, upgraded trainer that also supports a much improved attack role for those air-forces looking to do more with their trainer at an affordable cost. Definitely interesting to see how much they improve in the avionics because BaE could potentially be looking at surrogate training roles as well given that they have really no chance in the T-X market in the US.

The export success would naturally be contingent upon a lot of air-forces wanting a low cost aircraft, that can fire a lot of fairly high cost munitions such as the Brimstone and the LGB. As Singha mentioned there are other players in this space with the L-159 and A-29 also offering low cost land attack options. The actual market may not be with air-forces that can't afford anything better but those that have a lot of stuff that is better but want to leverage their PGM inventory by deploying it on a more sustainable and lower-cost platform that they are already familiar with (Saudi Arabia for one)..

The L-159 missed its 10 year market forecast by a huge margin (they had earlier wished to make deals for 250-500 aircraft over 10 years of marketing) however it would be interesting to see how BaE and HAL position this and how much cheaper it is to the LCA, Bandar etc. Light attack jets, particularly in the ME and African markets would also face a lot of pressure from fairly low-cost Chinese armed drones that are beginning to show up in these markets. It could definitely work depending upon the cost and capability especially if it extends the trainer side of the business further for the Hawk with more modern designs generally more expensive or years away from service.

The plan to build the Advanced Combat Hawk in India is a response to a perceived IAF requirement for enhanced strike co-ordinated armed reconnaissance and close air support. IHS Jane's reported in February 2015 that BAE Systems was negotiating with the IAF about the provision of such capability on the Hawk. In terms of exports, air forces in Oman, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have also outlined such a requirement.

For the IAF it is possible that the Advanced Combat Hawk will feature weapon systems that are also fitted onto the IAF's SEPECAT Jaguar fighters. These include MBDA's Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles, Rafael Litening targeting pods, and a range of smart weapons. IHS Jane's has also previously reported that the plan could incorporate equipping the Hawks with the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System, which turns an unguided 70 mm rocket into a precision laser-guided weapon.

The proposed Advanced Combat Hawk programme also builds on the close industrial links between BAE Systems and HAL. In addition to the Hawk production programme the two companies operate a JV - named BAeHAL Software - that was established in 1993 in Bangalore and provides IT solutions and services to defence, aerospace, transport and engineering sectors. Equity in this JV is split three ways: BAE Systems hold 11%, BAeHAL Software employees own 40%, while HAL holds the majority 49% stake.


Image

If a customer is looking for a dual trainer and light attack aircraft that prioritises speed and agility over loadout and legs, and if they are looking for such a platform with turboprop procurement, operating, and support costs, then they can pick from the Super Tucano, AT-6, KA-1/KT-1P, or even Kobac/Kobats.

If they are still looking for turboprop affordability, but regard payload and endurance as being more important, then Archangel is the platform of choice. If it is a bespoke yet affordable light attack and surveillance turboprop that suits, then there is AHRLAC.

Larger 'gunship' turboprops are also on offer, in the guise of CN235/C295 conversions and the MC-27J, all of which offer high endurance, range, and firepower in a package that enables the operator to still use the aircraft in the light transport role for which it was likely first procured.

For those customers that require the mission set of the light-strike turboprop, but which prefer the added performance of a jet, again there are a number of options that will not break the bank. The Hawk, Yak-130, M-346, L-15, JL-9, F/A-50, L-159, L-39NG, and Scorpion all offer the capabilities of a jet but without the costs normally associated with one.

For a region as vast and diverse as Asia Pacific, there are almost as many light-strike options as there are requirements and mission sets, which bodes for an especially rosy outlook for this class of aircraft in the region.

This is a view endorsed by Lt Gen Wiercinski, who told IHS Jane's , "I think the future [for this class of aircraft] in this region is very bright. It has a purpose. It's not for air-to-air and nor is it a long-range bomber. If you're trying to do something other than close air support/light attack and reconnaissance, then it's probably not the right kind of aircraft. But if this is what you're looking to do, then this is most definitely the aircraft to do it with."
Last edited by brar_w on 26 Mar 2016 21:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby vishvak » 26 Mar 2016 21:28

shiv wrote:
Gyan wrote:What can Combat Hawk do which even underpowered Kaveri engine equipped LCA cannot do?

Be exported to turd world nations with low-medium tech air forces where repairs can be carried out on aluminium airframe but not composite.

Can someone fill me in on information that JF 17 will be a far better bet for CAS than Combat Hawk for turdworlders.

It will be interesting to know cost of such an aircraft, without depending upon foren powers for engine plus limited platforms available if needed. Will be better for Kaveri production too. IIRC, LCA was planned to be in production only from Mk-2 onwards, even when no one realized that production engieering may have issues for set up time - in fact it could be an independent science in itself!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 26 Mar 2016 21:32

vishvak wrote:It will be interesting to know cost of such an aircraft, without depending upon foren powers for engine plus limited platforms available if needed. Will be better for Kaveri production too. IIRC, LCA was planned to be in production only from Mk-2 onwards, even when no one realized that production engieering may have issues for set up time - in fact it could be an independent science in itself!

India has been churning out Adour engines by the hundred for Jags and Hawk for decades now - so there is some (how much?) expertise there. I have never seen any talk or report about "percentage of indigenization" of Adour - so that is a mystery.

HAL engines divn web page says
It is now engaged in the manufacture of Artouste engines for Chetak/Cheetah helicopters, Adour engines for Jaguar aircraft and Garrett engines for Dornier aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 26 Mar 2016 21:50

brar_w wrote:The actual market may not be with air-forces that can't afford anything better but those that have a lot of stuff that is better but want to leverage their PGM inventory by deploying it on a more sustainable and lower-cost platform that they are already familiar with (Saudi Arabia for one)..

Saudi Arabia (a long-time Hawk operator) is already taking fresh deliveries of British-built 'Combat Hawks'.

BAE Systems Powers Up First New-Build Saudi Hawk
The new batch of RSAF Hawks – designated Mk.165s – are broadly similar to their British counterparts but differ with a new data link, a different radio system and an updated version of the Rolls-Royce Adour Mk.951 engine. The Saudi aircraft will also be capable of dropping and firing ordnance, unlike the British aircraft that simulate the process. ST001 is one of 15 of the Saudi aircraft currently on the production line. It will be mated with its wing section early next year and is expected to make a first flight around May 2015.

Fourteen of the 22 aircraft will be delivered to Saudi Arabia by December 2016.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 27 Mar 2016 07:20

I digress with a purpose. Here is Wiki on Maruti Udyog
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_Suzuki
Maruti Udyog was a PSU started by a scion of the Royal Family of South Asia - Indira Gandhi's son Sanjay Gandhi, brother in law of Sonia Gandhi. It stopped being a PSU just 9 years ago when the GoI let go of its holdings. Maruti has 50% share of the car market in India and exports to 125 countries.

What was in it for the Japanese in the 1980s to collaborate with inefficient SDREs? The Japanese were world leaders in car exports back then. But I digress.

HAL entering into an agreement with a foreign company with an eye on the export market and hopefully a domestic market should not really attract the sort of opprobrium and bile generated by the patriots of BRF. It is one thing to sing the praises of Moditva and #MakeinIndia. We even have a thread called "Achievements of the Modi government" with no discussion allowed. It is another matter altogether to come up with every reason under the sun to show how horrendously stupid and disastrous it is for HAL to collaborate with BAe and how every aspect of this is going to fail. The way we think about our own companies and country is paradoxical.

Visit the Pakistan arms thread and see the video of a Shitistani air force officer speaking of component manufacture of the JF 17 in the Islamic Republic of Crapistan. Genuine or not he oozes confident pride. We, on the other hand give the IAF a resounding slap for not wanting the LCA. And with the back of our hand we slap HAL for being a useless organization whose ideas are bound to fail and go to great lengths to dissect and expose the minutest details of why HALs idea will be a failure . And we like to pretend that it is others at fault - the MSM, traitor journos, IAF lifafas etc. What about our own blinkered idiocy. Are we not able to see our own hypocritical contradictions?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Manish_P » 27 Mar 2016 16:07

The actual market may not be with air-forces that can't afford anything better but those that have a lot of stuff that is better but want to leverage their PGM inventory by deploying it on a more sustainable and lower-cost platform


+1

IMVHO HAL making the Combat Hawk makes sense if they are going to profit from it and it is not at the cost of diverting precious resources and man-power from other important priorities like the LCA production

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 27 Mar 2016 17:23

The target market won't probably be a potential JF-17 customer, or an LCA or, T-50/F/A-50 customer that can't really afford more than $20-$30 million a pop. What you are looking for is someone that essentially values Close air support, land attack and wants to keep its air-force well trained even though it may lack a dedicated fast jet fleet or have one that is too old to modernize. If you want a light trainer or a light fighter and want to do the entire gamut of combat missions then the T-50 to F/A-50 will most likely be a better option. If you want an affordable fighter then the LCA with its better performance is going to be the way to go. If you want something really cheap and have a good working relation with China/pakistan then you'll go for the Bandar. As long as there is a value add to the IAF it should be a fairly logical and low risk path to upgrade capabilities irrespective of the export perspective. For this we'd really have to get into the weeds of what role the IAF wants this aircraft to play in its combat duties and combat training.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 27 Mar 2016 18:11

brar_w wrote:The target market won't probably be a potential JF-17 customer, or an LCA or, T-50/F/A-50 customer that can't really afford more than $20-$30 million a pop. What you are looking for is someone that essentially values Close air support, land attack and wants to keep its air-force well trained even though it may lack a dedicated fast jet fleet or have one that is too old to modernize. If you want a light trainer or a light fighter and want to do the entire gamut of combat missions then the T-50 to F/A-50 will most likely be a better option. If you want an affordable fighter then the LCA with its better performance is going to be the way to go. If you want something really cheap and have a good working relation with China/pakistan then you'll go for the Bandar. As long as there is a value add to the IAF it should be a fairly logical and low risk path to upgrade capabilities irrespective of the export perspective. For this we'd really have to get into the weeds of what role the IAF wants this aircraft to play in its combat duties and combat training.


How cheap is the bandar really? LCA is ~$30 mil. Present Hawk ~$20 mil. Can't see the bandar below the Hawk.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 27 Mar 2016 18:30

deejay wrote:
How cheap is the bandar really? LCA is ~$30 mil. Present Hawk ~$20 mil. Can't see the bandar below the Hawk.


Probably not, but it would most likely be more suitable for someone that is A) not really interested in training duties, and B ) that does not value close air support and land attack as much as an all round capability. If you want a trainer that can do land attack and perhaps some other air to air missions than the Dream Hawk is a strong contender. If you simply want a cheap fighter that can do a2a, a2g at a low acquisition cost then these nations would most likely prefer the bandar even though it would come in at closer to $30 million + support and infrastructure cost. The Bandar much like the T-50/FA-50 and even the LCA is for an air-force that is committed to a multi-role fast jet fleet where performance matters but where acquisition cost has previously prevented the air-force modernization.

The Hawk on the other hand is for those that can't really afford one, or more importantly (Imo) that can but would like to offload some of their land attack duties in COIN like scenarios to a platform that they share training with. Keep in mind if BaE continues to market such an aircraft as a Paveway, Brimstone carrier using a designator pod, then those munitions aren't really cheap and for a potential customer China can come in and offer subsidized low cost munition clones that they have. They are already providing ME and Africa with armed drones and those will be legitimate competitors in the land attack role.

Also, if land attack using PGM's and even ISR is your main go to mission, at $30 million with mostly commercially produced parts the Scorpion if it gets its first customer (which it should) would be a very potent competitor in the space since it adds a significantly longer loiter time than its peers in the space of course at the expense of it is not a legitimate fast jet trainer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prem » 28 Mar 2016 05:44

Indians for Israel
‏@Indians4Israel
India's Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha to visit #Israel on 4 day trip

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 28 Mar 2016 12:17

HAL "wants to do something" Spot on.It is raring to go in simply useless directions,excdept one's that matter. Reinventing the basic trainer,when the world's best (Pilatus) has been acquired due to the utter failure of its widow maker the HT-32.The IJT has been a running farce over the last 5 years and the plum project that it ha sin its pocket with abso NO competiton whatsoever,the LCA,with a potential orderbook of over 300,languishes and languishes with revised deadline after deadline unable to be met,that too with reduced performance parameters accepted by the IAF,parameters drawn up two decades ago!

For close support as many have pointed out,there are cheaper and more effective aircraft other than the armed Hawk,an aircraft long in the tooth,which the IAF acquired after evaluating it for two decades and after last,after it was bought earlier by almost every nation that bought western trainers. It would be better off if the IA was actually given the entire lot of attack helos and light attack aircraft for seamless air support of ground forces. could be invested in the more urgent and higher priority items like extra strike fighters,etc.

The money saved for the IAF

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby wig » 28 Mar 2016 16:41

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 584544.cms

excerpts : Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
"Despite being a world-class combat arm, the IAF's falling end strength and problematic force structure, combined with its troubled acquisition and development programs, threaten India's air superiority over its rapidly modernising rivals, China and Pakistan," said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.
Authored by Ashley Tellis, the top American expert on India and South Asia, whose counsel is
sought by governments in both the countries,

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby DexterM » 28 Mar 2016 16:47

>>the LCA,with a potential orderbook of over 300,languishes and languishes with revised deadline after deadline unable to be met,that too with reduced performance parameters accepted by the IAF,parameters drawn up two decades ago!
Philip saar, how long will you continue to denigrate the LCA? What specific Russki product are you peddling this time?
Heavy attack Hepter?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2016 13:41

Aircraft and weapons recognition of IAF aircraft - a primer for newbies and anyone else interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SjkG-Ipd4Q

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 31 Mar 2016 14:05

Philip wrote:HAL "wants to do something" Spot on.It is raring to go in simply useless directions,excdept one's that matter. Reinventing the basic trainer,when the world's best (Pilatus) has been acquired due to the utter failure of its widow maker the HT-32.The IJT has been a running farce over the last 5 years and the plum project that it ha sin its pocket with abso NO competiton whatsoever,the LCA,with a potential orderbook of over 300,languishes and languishes with revised deadline after deadline unable to be met,that too with reduced performance parameters accepted by the IAF,parameters drawn up two decades ago!

For close support as many have pointed out,there are cheaper and more effective aircraft other than the armed Hawk,an aircraft long in the tooth,which the IAF acquired after evaluating it for two decades and after last,after it was bought earlier by almost every nation that bought western trainers. It would be better off if the IA was actually given the entire lot of attack helos and light attack aircraft for seamless air support of ground forces. could be invested in the more urgent and higher priority items like extra strike fighters,etc.

The money saved for the IAF


Sir, while I agree with you on IJT, LCA is well on its way to induction. What we need is much better war footing project management from HAL and massive push from ministry. From recent reports in media there seem to be some grass shoots in HAL showing rays of hope. Need to accelerate this big time. From a performance perspective and its place in IAF ORBAT all issues have been answered.

Re transferring all ground attack fixed wing assets to army, that makes no sense for a multitude of reasons - Shiv and Deejay have analyzed these in depth some time ago.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby sankum » 01 Apr 2016 01:23

MOD REPORT 2015-16

HAL
New campus of
HAL Management Academy and 2nd line
of ALH production at TAD, Kanpur.

Desired stall characteristics of
Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) achieved,
various types of trials completed. 17 spin
test flights carried out and further spin
trials are under process.

1st Flight (Tethered Flight) of Unmanned
Aerial Vehicles (RUAVs), which are
remotely controlled by ground control
stations, carried out on December 16,
2015. In future these R-UAVs can be
used for all kinds of missions deemed
Dull, Dirty and Dangerous.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 01 Apr 2016 07:53

sankum wrote:
Desired stall characteristics of
Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) achieved,

various types of trials completed. 17 spin
test flights carried out and further spin
trials are under process.

I saw the bolded bit in Vayu as well. Did not think of mentioning till I saw this

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kvraghavaiah » 01 Apr 2016 15:16

sankum wrote:
Desired stall characteristics of
Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) achieved,

various types of trials completed. 17 spin
test flights carried out and further spin
trials are under process.


Very good news.

Any panwala or chaiwala news on HAL Light Utility Helicopter? It was expected to do maiden flight in Dec-2015. Do we have to assume that HAL LUH is flying with out news?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neela » 01 Apr 2016 20:27

^^^
DefExpo 2016: HAL LUH to fly soon
A new helicopter emerging from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) hangar is the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), and it is expected to perform its maiden flight in May.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 02 Apr 2016 05:59

Singha wrote:hate to be party pooper but read my post in indian missiles thread about length and scope of amraam test program.

astra is a long way yet from being a volume producable FOC weapon


Here's how modern systems are tested. Read the bolded part below. Most of the testing done via simulation and subsystem testing; only 3 actual firings were required for validation. This is in huge contrast to AMRAAM designed in the 1980s, which required 89 live-fire tests--64 developmental to demonstrate missile requirements and 25 operational.

Barak 8 / LRSAM Tested Onboard an Indian Destroyer
...
The Barak-8 has been designed to defend against a variety of short-to-long-range airborne threats, including fixed-wing aircraft, helicopters, drones and projectiles. It incorporates a state-of-the-art phased array multi- mission radar, two-way data link, and a flexible command and control system that enables it to simultaneously engage multiple targets day and night and in all-weather conditions. Due to the comprehensive simulation and preliminary subsystem testing, only three flight tests are sufficient to clear the system for operational induction. Additional tests will follow the initial phase to further explore the system’s performance and capability enhancements.
...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 02 Apr 2016 08:59

Neela wrote:^^^
DefExpo 2016: HAL LUH to fly soon
A new helicopter emerging from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) hangar is the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), and it is expected to perform its maiden flight in May.


HTT 40 may come out for taxi trials in a weeks time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Apr 2016 10:06

Phrase was taken from the media report.Pl don't shoot the postman.Even the GOI/MOD acknowledges that the prod rate is only 6-8/yr.Anyone can calculate that in a decade only 80+ aircraft can be built.OK double it after 5 years.That still gives just 120 aircraft.As I've been saying for several years,where are the other few hundred required for MIG replacements going to come from?Plus,these LCAs are also only the MK-1 std.not the fully capable LCAs meeting specs drawn up in the last century.Read the Tellis/US report on the IAF,about not building more than 6 LCA sqds (as they will become obsolete/unable to meet future capabilities) and buying a "Western 4+ gen fighter" to make up shortfalls.Of course theys aid "Western" but one could easily buy a Ru MIG-29/35 instead for less.

The MOD has to really kick-ass HAL to ramp up prod,perhaps with another prod facility and if need be get firang assistance in ironing out dev hurdles so that the aircraft eventually performs as originally intended.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 10:41

Only 3 tests for Barak-8 and even prior to that USD 3 Billion dollar orders given. Just Compare with Nag, Astra, AAD - simulation technology disappears for them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby vishvak » 02 Apr 2016 20:21

Probably MIC needs a dedicated Production Engineering dept. of some kind, modeled more after Su-30MKI experience and such, and less after Hawk production line exp.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby John » 02 Apr 2016 21:37

Gyan wrote:Only 3 tests for Barak-8 and even prior to that USD 3 Billion dollar orders given. Just Compare with Nag, Astra, AAD - simulation technology disappears for them.

These are for induction of barak 8 in kolkata, the missile has already been tested numerous times. It has grown thru more testing than AAD has.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 21:51

^^ Evidence? The MOD reports clearly note limited tests for Barak-8. Given its issues were only recently resolved (2014-15), that makes sense.

AAD comparison to Barak is pointless. BMD vs air breathing targets.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 22:00

Gyan wrote:Only 3 tests for Barak-8 and even prior to that USD 3 Billion dollar orders given. Just Compare with Nag, Astra, AAD - simulation technology disappears for them.


Barak-1 experience and also general reputation of Israelis. Though one may well point out the issues with the EL/M-2060P pods and ask if that reputation is always warranted.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 02 Apr 2016 23:02

I also have a good reputation, can somebody give me Rs. 21,000 crores. Thanx in adv. I promise not to be stingy while giving bribes or unemployed super models from Mallaya haram.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 23:33

Looks like you have it all planned out. :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby John » 03 Apr 2016 01:36

Karan M wrote:^^ Evidence? The MOD reports clearly note limited tests for Barak-8. Given its issues were only recently resolved (2014-15), that makes sense.

AAD comparison to Barak is pointless. BMD vs air breathing targets.


So far 7 tests 3 from ship and 4 from land were documented, there is likely to have been some undocumented tests. Lahav was supposed to carry out tests of both C dome and Barak 8 in combination not sure if it has already taken place. Also israelis are gearing up for more tests as they start modifying more Sa'ar 4.5 and 5 vessels with Barak 8 this year.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2016 18:41

HTT-40/Combat Hawk anyone? Or are they destined to get shot out of the sky in the "modern war environment"

OK for US. Not OK for India?
The Pentagon Has Two Choices for Light-Attack Planes
With potential Air Force interest in light attack aircraft, a number of manufacturers have put forth existing and potential products for consideration. These vary over the full range from fully operational aircraft to paper designs. There are a number of potential candidates in varying states of development, only two of which are currently viable.

The A-29 Super Tucano and AT-6C Coyote are the most advanced aircraft developmentally. The AT-6B is a fencer, benefiting from commonality with the A-10C and AT-6C and a very robust communications and data array. The A-29 is a bruiser, with a higher, heavier airframe and a slightly heavier stores load. Both use the PT-6A-68 turboprop delivering 1,600 shaft horsepower.

Both aircraft, combat loaded, are comparable in power-to-weight ratio and wing loading to a combat-loaded P-47D. Both meet all requirements of the Buy American Act — unit costs are $11-14 million per unit, combat equipped, for a squadron-sized buy with support and training devices.


The A-29 is the most widely deployed modern turboprop light attack aircraft in the world, with the most experienced users being Brazil and Colombia. Almost 200 aircraft have been produced with another 200-plus aircraft on order. Colombian air force crews have extensive combat experience, including with precision-guided munitions, due to their use against the FARC.

Brazil has used them extensively for counternarcotics, reconnaissance and counter-air operations. The aircraft are in service worldwide from South America, Africa and Asia.

The aircraft is certified to carry rockets, free fall munitions, air to air missiles (AIM-9L class), air to ground missiles (AGM-65 class), and laser-guided bombs including the Enhanced Paveway II.


The AT-6C is a derivative of the T-6B with hardpoint wings, an uprated engine and avionics from the A-10C, including the Central Interface Control Unit which provides the primary mission systems for the AT-6C.

The AT-6C uses a modified A-10C Operational Flight Program, leveraging all of the A-10’s stores management, datalink, map and helmet mounted cueing system interfaces.

Commonality with the T-6B is over 70 percent. There are two prototypes, one production validation aircraft, and one LRIP aircraft on the production line. The aircraft underwent a two-year evaluation at the AATC in Tucson, and was judged to be an “operationally effective and suitable light-attack and armed reconnaissance aircraft.”

The AT-6C carries almost as much fuel as the A-29 despite a smaller airframe, and has accomplished weapons tests with the GBU-12/58 Paveway II, guns, guided and unguided 70-millimeter rockets and Mk-81/82 bombs.

The U.S. configuration used by the Air Guard is fully compatible with night vision devices, and includes SATCOM, SADL and a Gentex Scorpion helmet-mounted sight. It has a MIL STD 1760 databus instead of the 1553B and is fully compatible with GBU-38/54 and GBU-39 weapons, although they have not been tested. The aircraft lacks U.S. airworthiness and weapons certifications.

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2016 18:50

deejay wrote:DefExpo 2016: HAL LUH to fly soon
A new helicopter emerging from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) hangar is the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), and it is expected to perform its maiden flight in May.


HTT 40 may come out for taxi trials in a weeks time.

According to the latest issue of Vayu more than 40 ground runs have been carried out. Wonder if that is the same as taxi trials.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 03 Apr 2016 19:00

What's interesting is that HAL is offering multiple potential fixed-wing options for CAS: armed HTT-40 and Combat Hawk and maybe armed IJT too.
This is in addition to rotary wing options - Rudra and LCH and armed LUH and maybe armed Ka-226

I like the new HAL attitude of throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, and not afraid to attempt and fail and ridiculed in media. A really refreshing change !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vivek K » 03 Apr 2016 20:00

HAL seems to be coming of age -IJT, ALH, ALH-WSI, LCH, HTT-40 and LCA! Things are beginning to shake.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 03 Apr 2016 20:43

I like the new HAL attitude of throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, and not afraid to attempt and fail and ridiculed in media.


Is that what it is? Not sure. Seems more that they are offering options that the Indian services have a need for and cannot be offered by foreign vendors (for whatever reasons).

Even the arming of the Hawk I doubt is a shot in the dark. It is calculated, but it does carry some risk. I would think the pivot is the GoI - will they allow "export"s of such items.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Apr 2016 22:35

^^^"OK for US. Not OK for India?
The Pentagon Has Two Choices for Light-Attack Planes

IIUC, these are for COIN. What would we use them for since we don't use power against Naxals or even the terrorists coming across the border in Kashmir?

When the Narconistas get their manpads, these things will be of limited utility. :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 04 Apr 2016 06:49

shiv wrote:...

According to the latest issue of Vayu more than 40 ground runs have been carried out. Wonder if that is the same as taxi trials.


Taxi Trials are different from Ground Runs for aircraft. HTT 40 is doing everything away from spotlight. It is likely to take the spotlight shortly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 04 Apr 2016 07:04

Here we go again: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-Force-readies-for-Red-Flag-its-toughest-exercise-with-US/articleshow/51670924.cms

Was a bit surprised to see that the previous IAF participation in Red Flag was way back in 2008, it felt a lot more recent.


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