Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2016 08:52

a single B-52 attempting to take on a armoured division will be shot down in 5 mins by the organic SAMs that move with the formation.

all these textbook examples work only if no enemy air and ground(SAM) opposition.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 28 Apr 2016 09:38

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:a single B-52 high altitude heavy bomber can destroy an entire armored division with these bombs, where in the past dozens of aircraft would have had to drop hundreds of bombs for the same effect."

Typical Amriki hype. As long as the armoured division consists of a row of tanks 3-4 abreast and several km long. I had posted a news item where an American reporter had spoken of ""awesome unguided rockets raining 2.5 inch death" . In 20 years of watching IAF videos of MiG 21s firing unguided rockets that I have never read anyone put it in that way. This is the standard way in which American weapons are introduced - that they will win wars entirely on their own. I wish Indians would learn to add at least 10% of the masala of pride that Americans add to what they produce



3.3 legged cheetah :rotfl:


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 16:32

Zhuk radar and Novator wutever on the Su-30MKI? wut wut wut?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 30 Apr 2016 21:21

We have corruption in arms sales thread which has the old news reports and am transferring above posts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 30 Apr 2016 21:27

Karan M wrote:Zhuk radar and Novator wutever on the Su-30MKI? wut wut wut?


They will have to improve their wiki data mining ability :((

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cybaru » 01 May 2016 11:41

Viv S wrote:In either case, for tank busting, you're still better off employing a PGM (preferably from standoff ranges). The Tejas can take out upto 8 MBT/APCs in a single sortie with a twin set of Spice 250s.


Eventually they will realize they already have helina and adapt it to Tejas/MKI platform and not just leave it for heli based units. Hopefully they are already doing it or plan to. Each pylon could carry a pod of 2-4 units, so even Tejas could go hunting for 10-12 tanks a sortie.

For about 100K a missile, you are guaranteed a dead tank and we make it at home so no need to nurse the stock. The range as-is without booster from a higher platform would be akin to what brimstone gets 15-20 kms from a fixed wing platform.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 01 May 2016 16:01

Karan M wrote:Other accomplishments by Shri Tyagi as i recall. Moving a certain Indian program from 8 Squadrons to 2, until and unless its Indian developers signed off on the MRSAM program. Subsequently, he was to be Tata Nova IAIs rep in India. No conflict of interest at all. Interesting that today, that program is back to 15 squadrons.
Did a lot of jaw jaw on Siachen. Was countered by fellow retirees.
And of course the AW "scam"

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/form ... 50778.html

How 8 choppers became 12 under former Indian Air Force chief of staff S.P. Tyagi
Senior defence officers say such deals are a drawn-out process and records clearly show that Tyagi was a key player when the acquisition process was under way.



This war is still on:-

Akash-2 vs MRSAM
AAD, AD-1, AD-2 Vs S-400

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prem » 02 May 2016 08:21

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-424831/
AVX reveals new attack helicopter configuration for FVL Light
AVX Aircraft of Benbrook, Texas has responded to the US Army’s request for information on the smallest of five planned Future Vertical Lift (FVL) capability sets with two 7.5t (16,700lb) winged coaxial compound helicopter configurations that the company’s chief executive describes as vertical takeoff fighter aircraft for light reconnaissance, attack, assault and medical evacuation missions.
The baseline tapered-wing, 13.4m (44ft) diametre rotor concept would be powered by two 3,000shp Improved Turbine Technology Programme (ITEP) engines and is designed to meet a demanding set of core requirements proposed by the US Army in its “Capability Set 1” RFI document. The requirements that emerged for that next-generation rotorcraft category required a more robust design than the 4.5t (10,000lb) light single that AVX discussed with the Army back in January for Capability Set 1 (CS1), prior to the 18 February RFI release.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 02 May 2016 09:39

Karan M wrote:Other accomplishments by Shri Tyagi as i recall.


Also, wasn't he the Air Chief at the time of the fiasco that was Mirage 2000-5 purchase from Qatar? Apparently this happened

In the early 2000s, as a “stop gap” measure a decision was taken to acquire 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft with 85 per cent of its life still remaining from Qatar, which had acquired them from France in 1997. The tripartite deal, involving aircraft producer Dassault, was struck in April 2005 for $600 million, including a stock of 500 air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It was aborted a few months later when IAF headed by Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi arbitrarily slashed its offer to $375 million. The decision by a protesting Qatar to back out of the deal was used to conjure up the entirely novel MMRCA requirement and push for global tender, which Dassault hoped to win and, surprise! surprise!, did.


http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 459932.ece

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 02 May 2016 10:09

the former ACM is in CBI HQ today for the first of what is likely to be a series of meetings.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 10:12

Kashi, great find!! Karnad is sometimes all over the place when it comes to tech inputs but he is a clued in insider who does get scoops from time to time.

All I can say is that there is a good reason why Manohar Parrikar seems to have completely renegotiated the Rafale deal and why AKA who seems to have known what it was set up for, ended up not signing it before leaving!!

Remember SSwamy was also against it. Parrikar met him and discussed the issue.

In effect, the original deal was probably a mine with all sorts of issues.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 10:13

"Interesting revelations may tumble out if CBI inquired into how, why, and by whom the MMRCA decisions were crafted. In the early 2000s, as a “stop gap” measure a decision was taken to acquire 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft with 85 per cent of its life still remaining from Qatar, which had acquired them from France in 1997. The tripartite deal, involving aircraft producer Dassault, was struck in April 2005 for $600 million, including a stock of 500 air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It was aborted a few months later when IAF headed by Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi arbitrarily slashed its offer to $375 million. The decision by a protesting Qatar to back out of the deal was used to conjure up the entirely novel MMRCA requirement and push for global tender, which Dassault hoped to win and, surprise! surprise!, did."

BTW, this was not the only part of the so called deal. HAL was to also produce the Mirage 2000-V with TOT from Dassault. Even that was scrubbed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 May 2016 10:19

The decision to scrub M2K deal was ABV decision and later they opted for global tendering and then GOI changed and new DPP rulez etc was made which delayed for many years.

The additional 12 M2K-5 deal was for boosting for squadron for cheaper available M2K.

Had ABV gone ahead with 126 M2K , French offered to transfer entire production line to India plus service M2K aircraft globally in India which is good business decision

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 10:20

In any strongly authority oriented system, a few people can wreak a lot of damage. The rank and file who fight wars have to pay the price.

https://bharatkarnad.com/

How the system of bribery works in military — Agusta-Westland case
Posted on May 2, 2016 by Bharat Karnad

In the context of huge bribes/payoffs being basic to the Indian military procurement system, and which reputation has been burnished with every big arms deal since the Jaguar deal in the late Seventies — the trend-setter in this respect, the foreign vendor companies happily and eagerly make illegal payments to secure rich, perpetually paying, contracts. This system of bribery/payoffs for military buys is entrenched and flourishes and is based on three conditions: (1) The political top order’s treating procurement of military hardware as channel for making often huge amounts of money ostensibly for the ruling party but actually to enrich itself, (2) a crooked service chief inclined to make his tenure as profitable (in the filthy lucre sense) for himself as possible, and (3) the chief exercising his administrative right to post any senior officer anywhere, carefully selecting officers for certain key posts in the service hierarchy on the basis of his having come to know over the years as persons willing to bend a little or a lot and otherwise to facilitate the skimming off of the cream in arms deals.

The most important posts for the service chief from the point of view of making personal capital out of arms contracts in the pipeline are that of the Deputy Chief (Plans) and the Assistant Chief (Plans). As reward for being pliant these two officers can expect to benefit from the payoffs and/or get sought after postings after pulling time as Assistant Chief and Deputy Chief. With these two posts filled with your own men, the path is cleared for the service chief to rake in the monies.

Now consider what happened in the Agusta-Westland VVIP helicopter deal with the Italian firm Finmeccanica. Soon after the Congress Party returned to power in 2004, the grapevine was that the VVIP helo deal on the anvil was to be milked, that the word had come down from the political high that the th new regime was sticking with the Agusta-Westland rotary aircraft selection, and the IAF better get a move on with the procurement process. The political was managed by, yes, “AP” in the Italian court documents, who the media has speculated is Ahmed Patel — the closest confidante of Sonia Gandhi, but the routing had to be through the distaff side of the First Congress family with varied business interests.

The Central Bureau of Investigation is on the right track by calling in the then Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Plans) Air Marshal JS Gujral (retd) for questioning. Assuming he’s prepared to sing, there’s no better placed person top explicate just what happened in the Agusta deal with the then Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi in the saddle. Tyagi has been named, along with the strangely sissyish-named first cousins of his from Chandigarh involved as middlemen in import deals — the entire caboodle comprising the “Fratelli Tyagi” of the Italian indictment. But why is ex-chief Tyagi fairly confident Gujral will reveal nothing? Because as the protocol among thieves goes, if you rat to the authorities, there’s goods against you too that will be leaked to the same investigators. Gujral is thus stuck even as Tyagi, who the BJP govt is intent on sending to the slammer, is twisting slowly in the wind.

But how did the payoffs reach SP Tyagi? Tyagi is listed as a consultant to the software development firm IDS Chandigarh owned by Tyagi cousins. What Tyagi knows about software one cannot say fro certain, except to note he’d barely be able to identify a laptop computer. So the consultancy was the payoff route to the former air chief, with the Italian vendor actually using the IDS Chandigarh as the channel, perhaps, handing over a CD with some software development information which’d be passed off as part of the offsets obligation worth $10-odd million.

CBI may already be on to this SP Tyagi payoff mode.

The larger issue remains unaddressed though. And it is not just the Western vendor companies that are in the business of buying into arms deals in the above fashion. The Russians have been just as active, where IAF is concerned, starting with the Su-30MKI contract. If the BJP is serious about making the defence procurement system “corruption mukt”, about rooting out corruption, it can task CBI to do time bound investigations beginning with the Su-30 deal in the 1990s and every procurement contract since then, including for the MiG- 21 bis upgrade, British Hawk, the Mirage 2000, the Mirage 2000 upgrade, and now the Rafale. Were the CBI to dig a bit it’ll find a whole slate of Chiefs of Air Staff, Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff, and Assistant Chiefs of Air Staff to hunt down. To just hang Tyagi or some other service chief would be to leave the corruption system in place intact.

MOD has to also alter the system to take the administrative power of posting away from service chiefs and to seriously vet officers shortlisted for the posts of deputy chief (plans) and assistant chief (plans) of all the services before they are appointed. That will be the first and significant step to end the rot in the military.

Prime minister Narendra Modi and defence minister Manohar Parrikar have so far proved they are clean and above board. They can make this basic systemic change in the military service chiefs’ authority to make it impossibly difficult for the political top order in the future to initiate corrupt deals and see them through to fruition. This small change will be like taking an ax to a major source of corruption in government — the biggest, most lethal, internal security threat to the Indian republic, and far more dangerous than terrorism, Naxalism, or even extremist Islam. Corruption has already eaten away at the entrails of the nation.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 10:22

Austin wrote:The decision to scrub M2K deal was ABV decision and later they opted for global tendering and then GOI changed and new DPP rulez etc was made which delayed for many years.

The additional 12 M2K-5 deal was for boosting for squadron for cheaper available M2K.

Had ABV gone ahead with 126 M2K , French offered to transfer entire production line to India plus service M2K aircraft globally in India which is good business decision


ABV lost the election, Austin. And remember George Fernandes post Tehelka was having every decision vetted many times. Yashwant Sinha writes he asked GF to take decisions even so since national security came paramount.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 10:23

Karnad is pretty much suggesting ALL deals signed during UPA were dirty.

In which case I disagree with him that going after each one is necessary.

It will be disastrous for defence preparedness.

Best to go after this one and fix the process so it can't be repeated.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 02 May 2016 10:32

Govt to govt. deals can eliminate payoffs if both sides play straight.However,the contract must be a cast-iron one,with no loopholes as to lack of performance,after sales support,etc. This gives room for manipulation later on . I agree,if we have to go back on deals,where will it end?back to the first days of Independence?! Tighten the loopholes and for clarity,approve appointed genuine agents for foreign companies so that there is some transparency in such a secretive industry.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 02 May 2016 10:40

Karan M wrote:Karnad is pretty much suggesting ALL deals signed during UPA were dirty.

In which case I disagree with him that going after each one is necessary.

It will be disastrous for defence preparedness.

Best to go after this one and fix the process so it can't be repeated.


M777 Light Howitzer deal too was first negotiated during UPA time no? Does the current agreement differ substantially from the older one?

But then this is a FMS purchase isn't it? Maybe waht BK wants to suggest is to separate the FMS deals from the lotsand go after the rest.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rkhanna » 02 May 2016 10:51

Karnad is pretty much suggesting ALL deals signed during UPA were dirty.

In which case I disagree with him that going after each one is necessary.


I agree. You take one deal then try everybody in the logistic Chain - Service Chiefs, bureaucrats , Politicians, Private Citizens - for Treason and then Hang them.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kvraghav » 02 May 2016 12:02

One relative from HAL was cribbing about some appraisal scheme called PRS which would result in compulsory retirement for underperformance for 3 years. He was cursing BJP and praising congress and how people have to work till 6 or 7 now. They expect private sector salary but not work.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rohitvats » 02 May 2016 13:03

Karnad has been gunning for the IAF for a long time. His posts sound more like rants than anything. This is not to say that there was/is no corruption but to make such sweeping statements will fetch nothing. As per him, everyone is corrupt! And he again very conveniently puts the whole blame on IAF.

Funny bit is hanging the cross of failed M2K deal around IAF's neck! Since when has IAF been in the loop when it comes to financial aspect of the decision making? I mean, IAF slashing the offer from X to Y? Seriously?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 13:57

Rohit, the whole article explains what he is saying in better form. Basically politicos (we know who, he says congress's first family) make the choice. Then they work with compromised individuals (services, bureaucrats) to get it done. Its not that "out there" since its whats been accused for the AW-101 deal as well.

His bit about offset routing is spot on. Also, he tends to take that tone with everyone. Not just AF. He's been pretty much calling Modi a dolt. Called HAL a dead DPSU. Some epithets for DRDO. I think apart from Russia he has called everyone names. Time of the year etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 May 2016 15:39

Karan M wrote:ABV lost the election, Austin. And remember George Fernandes post Tehelka was having every decision vetted many times. Yashwant Sinha writes he asked GF to take decisions even so since national security came paramount.


ABV did but he was also the one who rejected outright purchase of 126 M2K which IAF had suggested to GOI to purchase on "urgent" basis even though the French were more than happy to transfer the production line to India and build a global MRO facility for M2K , that was the sweetner , this happened somewhere between 2000 and 2003 , post 2004 he was not in picture.

But the genesis of MMRCA Global Tender came out during ABV era , the Congress just faithfully followed it and added more complexity to it with new DPP etc etc and never took any decision to top it up.

How I wish we had opted for more M2K in 2000 and GOI had shown the courage for outright purchase but even they were shit scared with any single vendor situation and post kargil there was this opposition charge of Coffin Scam.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 May 2016 15:46

Karan M wrote:The larger issue remains unaddressed though. And it is not just the Western vendor companies that are in the business of buying into arms deals in the above fashion. The Russians have been just as active, where IAF is concerned, starting with the Su-30MKI contract. If the BJP is serious about making the defence procurement system “corruption mukt”, about rooting out corruption, it can task CBI to do time bound investigations beginning with the Su-30 deal in the 1990s and every procurement contract since then, including for the MiG- 21 bis upgrade, British Hawk, the Mirage 2000, the Mirage 2000 upgrade, and now the Rafale. Were the CBI to dig a bit it’ll find a whole slate of Chiefs of Air Staff, Deputy Chiefs of Air Staff, and Assistant Chiefs of Air Staff to hunt down. To just hang Tyagi or some other service chief would be to leave the corruption system in place intact.


I think in the end that is how it will end , Tyagi will get up getting scapegoated , BJP will use Agusta deal to make it own brownie point for election and in Parliament , None of the congress top bosses or the names listed will ever end up getting into prison for corruption , Tyagi likely would. BJP know if that happens when they are not in power Congress will start its own witchhunt using CBI.

BJP will just use this issue for political gain but not to root out corruption thats too deep rooted inside our political class across all parties.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 15:51

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:ABV lost the election, Austin. And remember George Fernandes post Tehelka was having every decision vetted many times. Yashwant Sinha writes he asked GF to take decisions even so since national security came paramount.


ABV did but he was also the one who rejected outright purchase of 126 M2K which IAF had suggested to GOI to purchase on "urgent" basis even though the French were more than happy to transfer the production line to India and build a global MRO facility for M2K , that was the sweetner , this happened somewhere between 2000 and 2003 , post 2004 he was not in picture.


That's what. GF was paranoid about being accused of corruption so when he was told single vendor was controversial, or so the story goes.. he got cold feet.

But the genesis of MMRCA Global Tender came out during ABV era , the Congress just faithfully followed it and added more complexity to it with new DPP etc etc and never took any decision to top it up.

How I wish we had opted for more M2K in 2000 and GOI had shown the courage for outright purchase but even they were shit scared with any single vendor situation and post kargil there was this opposition charge of Coffin Scam.


Coffin scam was a fully manufactured event that has scrwd indian defense preparedness.
It started this entire scout the world for vendors and ask everyone everything business at MOD.
Fulfilled the objective of getting George Fernandes out of the way and taking revenge on him for his anti-Queen stance.
Nothing changed in reality because the real crooks who were/are engaged in shady arms deals have only thrived.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 15:59

Austin wrote:I think in the end that is how it will end , Tyagi will get up getting scapegoated ,


Why will Tyagi get scapegoated if he is innocent? I suspect BJP/RM/Modi (despite what is reported) will not want to drag a service chief through mud if he turns approver. They'll respect the position he held even if not the individual.
Plus there were ample indications even before he was running too fast and loose (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dn ... ts-1799803).


Before the allegations of accepting bribes in the chopper deal hit the former IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal SP 'Bundles' Tyagi, he was battling a furious reaction from the retired community of soldiers for discussing a mutual withdrawal from Siachen in a series of Track-2 discussions that began last year.
Interestingly, sources in the government told DNA, the external intelligence agency, R&AW was kept out of the loop on these discussions.
It is believed that ACM Tyagi also claimed to his fellow-delegates that he had met a "very senior official in the PMO" before setting up the dialogue.
Once word about the Track-2 discussions was leaked out, a furious storm raged through the strategic community as scores of senior retired military personnel reacted with outrage at the "selling out" on Siachen. Many of them pointed out that India was at a strategic advantage in Siachen and except for one area in the Central Glacier, India was in a commanding position.

"Any change in this would mean a major strategic blunder," wrote Lt Gen PC Katoch, who had served as a Siachen brigade commander. He also pointed out that none from the Indian delegation had ever served on the Siachen Glacier.
In one of the briefing sessions that was organised in Delhi to assuage these fears, former army chief General NC Vij reacted with horror when the delegation was briefing the group.
"Why should anybody be discussing Siachen at all with the Pakistanis, and nor should we be discussing our Cold Start Doctrine with them," he told the delegation.
Throughout the discussions on Track-2, ACM Tyagi continued to draw considerable flak from the majority of the retired strategic community.


Austin wrote:BJP will use Agusta deal to make it own brownie point for election and in Parliament , None of the congress top bosses or the names listed will ever end up getting into prison for corruption , Tyagi likely would. BJP know if that happens when they are not in power Congress will start its own witchhunt using CBI.


If BJP has any sense, it should use this one event to bury the other side forever.

Austin wrote:BJP will just use this issue for political gain but not to root out corruption thats too deep rooted inside our political class across all parties.


GOI will behave as its leaders do. In that vein, the current focus at the top on being transparent has been noticed. So all is not doom and gloom.

Karnad notes:

Prime minister Narendra Modi and defence minister Manohar Parrikar have so far proved they are clean and above board. They can make this basic systemic change in the military service chiefs’ authority to make it impossibly difficult for the political top order in the future to initiate corrupt deals and see them through to fruition. This small change will be like taking an ax to a major source of corruption in government — the biggest, most lethal, internal security threat to the Indian republic, and far more dangerous than terrorism, Naxalism, or even extremist Islam. Corruption has already eaten away at the entrails of the government, the armed services, and the nation.


On a similar vein:

A little over a year ago, the marbled lobbies of five-star hotels and colonial clubs in the heart of Lutyens' Delhi buzzed with businessmen eyeing government contracts, liaison men dangling favours, and government servants seeking lucrative postings. A cozy nexus of cash, influence and favours that greased the wheels which ran India's capital. Today, these antechambers to the erstwhile Delhi Durbar have fallen silent, the result of a clean-up by the Narendra Modi government and the setting up of a new mechanism in the top bureaucracy to eliminate nepotism and bring in honest bureaucrats. This new system, insiders say, has posted nearly 450 joint secretaries, additional secretaries, secretaries to ministries and government departments, and around 300 officers in banks and public sector undertakings (PSUs) in the past 18 months. The only two criteria for selecting officials, according to PMO officials, are honesty and efficiency.

"When people talk about the PM not delivering on his promises they forget that he has delivered on his assurance of clean governance," says a senior government official.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tran ... 31599.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 May 2016 16:56

Austin wrote:....

ABV did but he was also the one who rejected outright purchase of 126 M2K which IAF had suggested to GOI to purchase on "urgent" basis even though the French were more than happy to transfer the production line to India and build a global MRO facility for M2K , that was the sweetner , this happened somewhere between 2000 and 2003 , post 2004 he was not in picture.

....


FWIW,
"However, there was a fly in the ointment. Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, was now producing a more advanced variant—the Mirage 2000-5. Dassault was also on the verge of closing down the entire Mirage 2000 production line unless it had some orders.

The joint secretaries in the defence ministry refused to treat the IAF proposal as merely a “repeat order on a past supplier” as envisaged in the “fast track procedure” of Defence Procurement Procedure 2006. They insisted that as the Mirage 2000-5 was an entirely “new” aircraft, the IAF should follow the standard process of drawing up an air staff requirement, and then floating a request for proposal."

http://qz.com/603776/stop-chasing-franc ... s-forever/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 18:10

Who were these joint secretaries?
Was one of them the (in) famous Arvind Joshi of the MP IAS couple (in)famy?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 May 2016 18:13

Karan M wrote:Who were these joint secretaries?
Was one of them the (in) famous Arvind Joshi of the MP IAS couple (in)famy?


Inquiring minds want to know. I wish I knew. In contrast, Boeing and the US Congress went along with the charade that the Hornet and Super Hornet were the same a/c to avoid just this kind of circus.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 02 May 2016 20:20

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karan M wrote:Who were these joint secretaries?
Was one of them the (in) famous Arvind Joshi of the MP IAS couple (in)famy?


Inquiring minds want to know. I wish I knew. In contrast, Boeing and the US Congress went along with the charade that the Hornet and Super Hornet were the same a/c to avoid just this kind of circus.


(Whistles)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2009/07/w ... acked.html

Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard ... According to this account, these folders found their way to the corporate headquarters of Lockheed Martin, in Bethesda, Maryland, USA. There, in January 2009, they were mistakenly placed on the desk of an officer unfamiliar with the Lockheed Martin’s operations in India. Reading the “Government of India, Ministry of Defence” heading on the file, the Lockheed Martin official referred the folders back to the Indian MoD in New Delhi.

Since then, a furious MoD had been trying to ascertain how Lockheed Martin obtained those folders


And:
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/e ... ed/977444/

The Indian Air Force's entire procurement plans, including top-secret projects detailing what systems would enter service in the next decade, are out in the open, possibly leaked with the connivance of highly placed officials within the government.

A former business associate of the jailed arms dealer Abhishek Verma has sent to several government agencies a shockingly explicit document that details the names, quantity and cost of hundreds of systems being procured by the Air Force, ranging from armed UAVs to precision guided munition, infrastructure on airfields close to China, and a new spy satellite.

The highly classified contents of this document — several hundred lines of data apparently filtered out of a central database kept on computer systems that are supposed to be closely guarded — has thrown the Air Force in a tizzy. Serving and retired IAF officers who have seen a copy of the document told The Indian Express that the contents were authentic.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nachiket » 02 May 2016 23:04

Cosmo_R wrote:FWIW,
"However, there was a fly in the ointment. Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, was now producing a more advanced variant—the Mirage 2000-5. Dassault was also on the verge of closing down the entire Mirage 2000 production line unless it had some orders.

The joint secretaries in the defence ministry refused to treat the IAF proposal as merely a “repeat order on a past supplier” as envisaged in the “fast track procedure” of Defence Procurement Procedure 2006. They insisted that as the Mirage 2000-5 was an entirely “new” aircraft, the IAF should follow the standard process of drawing up an air staff requirement, and then floating a request for proposal."


Well that's a problem right there. What knowledge or expertise do IAS baboos possess to make the determination that the Mirage 2000-5 is an "entirely new aircraft"? One of them probably read some Dassault brochure which marketed the 2000-5 as such. No wonder our defence procurement is such a mess.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 02 May 2016 23:48

It is not that their knowledge was deficient, it was their intent

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rahul M » 03 May 2016 00:24

classic CYA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 03 May 2016 02:01

India to get Longbow radars for Apaches

India has awarded a contract to Longbow LLC, a Lockheed Martin-Northrop Grumman joint venture, for fire control radar (FCR) systems for its Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopters, Lockheed Martin announced in a 30 April press statement released at the Army Aviation Association of America's (AAAA's) annual conference.

The firm-fixed price, undefinitised Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract purchases 12 FCRs for USD57.1 million, but could be worth up to USD116.7 million, according to Lockheed Martin.


"With Longbow FCR, the Indian Air Force will receive a rapid all-weather targeting capability," Jim Messina, Longbow LLC's president and director of Longbow programmes at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, said in the statement.



Could be worth nearly double the current contracted amount, which probably means options for more Longbow radars

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2016 09:26

Oh BTW Oh BTW, Tellis the great released a booklet on IAF.
He says:

"India should expand its investments in advanced munitions, combat support aircraft,
electronic warfare, physical infrastructure, and pilot proficiency—all current strengths—
while being realistic about its domestic capacity to produce sophisticated combat air
craft. Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritize
indigenous design and manufacture
over the imperative of providing the IAF’s able
pilots with the best fighters available.
"

Note the emphasis on "especially guard against indigenous design and manufacture".

One can guess what the "best fighters and xyz are... :lol: :lol:

Guess who the advisor for this thoughtful piece was?

None other than...

THE AUTHOR IS DEEPLY GRATEFUL
to Lieutenant Colonel Peter Garretson (U.S. Air
Force), Benjamin Lambeth, Air Marshal (retired) M. Matheswaran (Indian Air Force), Air
Marshal (retired) Pramod K. Mehra (Indian Air Force), George Perkovich, Admiral (re-
tired) Arun Prakash (Indian Navy), and several other U.S. and Indian government officials
and military officers for their close reading and thoughtful comments on the manuscript,
and to Aidan Milliff for research assistance.


No conflict of interest in giving such "advice" attempting to "scuttle".. err redirect the LCA program while setting oneself up as the head honcho for HAL and later Reliance for Dassault offsets, whatever.
Last edited by Karan M on 03 May 2016 09:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2016 09:31

And who was the "thoughtful advisor" quoted by "Indian lover" Shri Ashley Tellis in claiming the Tejas is inferior to the bla bla bla...
"Prodyut Das".

Indian gasbag extraordinaire, who did all he could to run down the program and its performance. The era of Mir Jafars and Jaichands who for their personal petty ego, ran down Indian aims has never really gone away.

The lies in the article are extraordinary, all selectively quoted to push the GOI to drop the LCA and of course, rely on the MMRCA alone.

Gentlemen, please welcome Ashley Tellis to the hallowed pantheon once occupied by greats like Brian Cloughley and John Fricker.

I won't even bother even linking the article because the motivated hitjob deserves as few direct eyeballs as possible.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 03 May 2016 10:08

Interesting discussion with an ex RAF pilot. Not sure if this is the right thread but posting here.

I was on a flight from Naples to London last evening and as we were boarding the pilot was hanging out
Outside the cockpit. We were sitting in the front row so somehow a conversation started. He was a young guy - had been working for the commercial airline for 18 months. Before that he was in the RAF. Commissioned as a fighter pilot but never joined his squadron as there were severe cutdowns. Joined a 'heli' squadron and flew Pumas for a couple of years. Was made redundant from the RAF as part of the big cut downs a couple of years ago. RAF has just 5 fighter squadrons now. He said its so small that he knows almost every pilot. Was in two minds on leaving - 'pay is much better in commercial flying -3 times or more ' but he misses the RAF. Said there were so few pilots left that he knew everyone personally. Said that 4 typhoons had been leased to India a couple of years ago. I said that's not true - maybe you are referring to the exercise where the IAF did very well against the RAF ( I was too kind to say whipped your ass). He said no ' we did better'. An interesting discussion followed - bit of chest thumping on both sides'. I brought up CIJWS and how we were the last word in CI Ops in the world.

Finally just before going back to the cockpit says - we have heard that the IAF is one of the best airforces in the world'. I said 'not one of.....'

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby arun » 03 May 2016 10:09



And so of the 22 AH-64E Apache on order, a little more than half the Apache’s ie: 12 will be Longbow equipped.

Meanwhile for good order the Lockheed Martin press release informing order for the Longbow:

India becomes 11th International Customer for LONGBOW LLC’s Apache Radar

ORLANDO, Fla., April 30, 2016 – The U.S. Army awarded LONGBOW Limited Liability Company (LLC) a $57.1 million foreign military sale contract to provide the Indian Air Force with LONGBOW Fire Control Radar (FCR) systems for their new Apache AH-64E helicopters. LONGBOW LLC is a joint venture of Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) and Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC).

Under this contract, $57.1 million is obligated to LONGBOW LLC with a total value not to exceed $116.7 million. The contract covers the production of 12 LONGBOW FCR systems and spares for India. Production will extend through early 2019 at Lockheed Martin’s Orlando and Ocala, Florida, facilities and at Northrop Grumman’s Baltimore facility.

“With LONGBOW FCR, the Indian Air Force will receive a rapid all-weather targeting capability,” said Jim Messina, LONGBOW LLC president and director of LONGBOW programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “The FCR’s air over-watch mode provides aircrews with 360-degree situational awareness, improving survivability and mission success.”

“Our highly reliable LONGBOW FCR has been repeatedly proven in combat, protecting warfighters around the globe at an affordable cost,” said Ike Song, vice president, Mission Solutions, Northrop Grumman’s Land & Avionics C4ISR Division.

For more than a decade, the LONGBOW FCR has enabled Apache aircrews to automatically detect, locate, classify and prioritize targets. It enables rapid, multi-target engagement in all weather, over multiple terrains and through battlefield obscurants.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 03 May 2016 10:14

so the efforts to deeply 'engage n impress' the IAF and IN top brass with imported off the shelf goodies vs the harder track of working with domestic developers is in full swing.


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