Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2016 15:29

JTull wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if IJT problems have not been solved for so long due this lack of vertical wind tunnel in India?

This is precisely what I am getting at. I know for a fact that LCA models were spin tested in France. If some senior management at ADA claimed that it is too costly or too difficult to set up one in India, who would be able to call them out? They are the experts no? Then every year a couple of guys could to a phoren junket to France or USA for vertical wind tunnel tests and bring back data and gifts for their families. What's the fun if one is set up across the road at HAL or ADA?

Pre 1930s tech can get you a vertical wind tunnel.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 17 Jan 2016 15:42

nobody seems interested in a flying engine testbed either even for fighters using a su30 or old B737/A320/Il76.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2016 15:54

shiv wrote:
JTull wrote:I'm beginning to wonder if IJT problems have not been solved for so long due this lack of vertical wind tunnel in India?

This is precisely what I am getting at. I know for a fact that LCA models were spin tested in France. If some senior management at ADA claimed that it is too costly or too difficult to set up one in India, who would be able to call them out? They are the experts no? Then every year a couple of guys could to a phoren junket to France or USA for vertical wind tunnel tests and bring back data and gifts for their families. What's the fun if one is set up across the road at HAL or ADA?

Pre 1930s tech can get you a vertical wind tunnel.


When there was too little fuel to even test the Kaveri per reports (too expensive), good luck in getting basic infra like wind tunnels and what not.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 17 Jan 2016 16:04

i read somewhere designing a new wing for a next gen plane like 787 is a "billion dollar effort" from design to finished product.
we are operating like a couple of kids in a college hostel putting up a social media site to compete with facebook, using 4 old PCs donated by passing out seniors and some spare parts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 17 Jan 2016 17:31

"Wind tunnels?" No problem,we have ample resources in that field of research.Just get the army of parasites of the GTRE to line up,drop their pants and bend down .You get your "wind" and the tunnel effect too!
Last edited by Indranil on 17 Jan 2016 20:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Jan 2016 17:48

Philip wrote:"Wind tunnels?" No problem,we have ample resources in that field of research.Just get the army of parasites of the GTRE to line up,drop their pants and bend down .You get your "wind" and the tunnel effect too!


Your posts provide ample amount of those wind tunnel effects, thank you.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2016 18:29

Thakur_B wrote:
Philip wrote:"Wind tunnels?" No problem,we have ample resources in that field of research.Just get the army of parasites of the GTRE to line up,drop their pants and bend down .You get your "wind" and the tunnel effect too!


Your posts provide ample amount of those wind tunnel effects, thank you.


Exactly. And stink up most of the threads as well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 17 Jan 2016 19:33

Saras cancelled,another stink don't you stinkers agree,and not by me?! Anyway,enjoy moi's parfum posts.If you dislke the aroma,use a hankie. :rotfl:

Kaveri,Saras,Trishul,etc.These are the real stink bombs ,where huge amts of the taxpayer's moolah has been provided with zero returns. Pl. remember even APJAK was taken for a ride by the "wind tunnel" experts of the GTRE (despite being warned by a former VCoAS that the GTRE were brazenly bulsh*ttng) when he loudly proclaimed in 2003 that by 2010 "200 LCAs would be in service".As of 2016 how many LCAs have been delivered? The formation of the first sqd. has been repeatedly delayed over the last few years,as from open reports,every LCA built has been a "bespoke" affair,not identical clones.Anyway,here at least we are in the last few yards of the last lap.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2016 19:37

My goodness, so much verbal flatulence. Looks like a mental enema was administered, with cheap Russian vodka. Which of course for shills comes free, irrespective of the thousands of crores of taxpayer funds Russian junk like T-xx etc use up, stunting all other efforts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 17 Jan 2016 19:58

Take your beef and wingeing to the IA! They've evaluated the T-series over the last few decades and bought it,when Arjun wasn't available.At least they haven't ordered that tincan called the M-1! :rotfl:

PS:It's "verbal fact-uence" not flatulence.I leave that to the GTRE and co. and their fans.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 17 Jan 2016 20:12

another stink don't you stinkers agree,and not by me?!


Since you asked.

Yes, a stink by you (who does not seem to have a clue).

Not a stink by the general program. Hope they build on this failure. That is how it is done. The Su-27, twice fell out of the sky. Glad they did not consider it a stink and wrap up the effort.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vivek K » 17 Jan 2016 20:23

This guy really has no clue except that he wants to get Russian products into IA/IAF/IN. No one here is hawking the M1 like he is hawking the T-90. All of us are pushing an Indian product while he pedals the T-90. I am amazed to see how it hurts him when we call the T-90 a tin can.

Call the M1 a tin can all you want. No one will defend it. Dare call the Arjun a tin can and see our reaction.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jan 2016 20:35

shiv wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7QkTBKtyw8


Specifically watch this bit..Fan is below
https://youtu.be/M7QkTBKtyw8?t=299

No sir the fan is not below. AT 5:00 you can see the camera looking up at the wind tunnel with the fan at the top. You can discern which way is up, by checking the flight path of the model after it exits the spin.

shiv wrote:Vertical wind tunnels for aircraft spin testing have been made from the 1930s at least. I can't see what is so difficult, high tech or expensive about this. Do we have at least ONE in India or not? If not why not?

From http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf
Image

You have now provided the same picture that I provided a few posts back. It is not difficult. The design of the vanes, walls, honeycomb screens are well within India's reach. But it has always been the money. What our babus thought is spare-able for science!

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:If you do check out the prices of wind tunnels for entertainment (indoor sky diving), they range from 2-5 million. If it was that easy to build, they would not cost that much.

Are you seriously trying to compare human skydiving wind tunnels with all the safety features to keep humans alive along with higher air speeds with a 20 foot high vertical wind tunnel to test aircraft models that have been around for 80 years?

Wind tunnels for flight testing are much more precise and powerful than wind tunnels for entertainment. The safety devices, hardly contribute to the costs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Jan 2016 20:45

Philip wrote:Take your beef and wingeing to the IA! They've evaluated the T-series over the last few decades and bought it,when Arjun wasn't available.At least they haven't ordered that tincan called the M-1! :rotfl:

PS:It's "verbal fact-uence" not flatulence.I leave that to the GTRE and co. and their fans.


What you are doing, is whingeing not wingeing. Stay off the beef. Too much protein & too less fiber leads to digestive issues apparently. :lol:

That tin can M-1 slaughtered your tin can T-72s in Iraq. The IA is hence busy trying to fix the tin can T-series. . :eek:

GTRE and co, decided that Russian junk couldn't cut it either - they preferred to work with the Americans and French. :lol:

Clearly, more stuff India makes inhouse, more it shafts oh so great Russian and other fraud vendors and their shills. Upsets the flatulent sorts clearly.
Last edited by Karan M on 17 Jan 2016 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2016 20:47

indranilroy wrote:Wind tunnels for flight testing are much more precise and powerful than wind tunnels for entertainment. The safety devices, hardly contribute to the costs.

Could you provide some links to the inexpensive human safety devices in entertainment wind tunnels, the absence of which vertical wind tunnel testing of aircraft models paradoxically becomes more expensive?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jan 2016 20:49

Guys, refrain from adding to the problem. Talk of Indian aviation only.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jan 2016 20:56

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Wind tunnels for flight testing are much more precise and powerful than wind tunnels for entertainment. The safety devices, hardly contribute to the costs.

Could you provide some links to the inexpensive human safety devices in entertainment wind tunnels, the absence of which vertical wind tunnel testing of aircraft models paradoxically becomes more expensive?


If you look at the safety devices attached to the entertainment wind tunnels, they are mostly safety nets, and the same screen which smoothens the air flow. Another safety device is that if the fan is de-clutched it will still be spinning for about 3-4 minutes, allowing enough time for the human beings to exit the area, instead of plonking on to the surface. Certainly, these safety devices don't cost any sizeable percentage of a 5 million dollar machine.

On an experimental wind tunnel, the speed of the air is more. Deriving that is not cheap. But as you rightly said. These are all 30s technology. The "difficulty" here is only the money (a few crores) which India doesn't seem to spare its scientists.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2016 21:22

indranilroy wrote:On an experimental wind tunnel, the speed of the air is more. Deriving that is not cheap. But as you rightly said. These are all 30s technology. The "difficulty" here is only the money (a few crores) which India doesn't seem to spare its scientists.


Why do you say speeds are higher in aircraft wind tunnels? Free falling humans need greater wind speeds than an aerofoil. And you know that a 2 foot or 3 foot model aircraft can be tested in a 20 foot tunnel but a human will need a much bigger set up. Apart form hefty insurance, walkways, entry and exit points for humans while the aircraft can simply be thrown in.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Jan 2016 22:01

In a spin tunnel aerofoil is not in play. The airplane presents its planform to the air.
The terminal velocity of an object is not determined by size, but shape and mass. An accurately made aeromodel is supposed to have comparable sink rates to the actual plane.
If you check out the wind tunnels for the humans, they are not bigger than a 20 feet in diameter and 25 feet in height (that of Langley). Neither do they have the capability to change the velocity of the air very rapidly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29268 » 18 Jan 2016 02:38

Since we are still on the wind tunnels, found an article by Jha on AMCA.

http://m.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saurav-jha/a-note-on-indias-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-amca-project-10879-748657.html
Relevant part:
For one, India is woefully short of wind tunnel facilities at the moment. Internal ADA projections reveal that as opposed to an emerging requirement of 8000 load outs a year, India has the capability to service only 1500 load outs annually through existing facilities. This lack of capacity is one of the reasons why the AMCA has had to undergo wind tunnel testing at the Calspan Wind Tunnel in the United States of America, before its final aerodynamic layout was frozen. Also, the dimensions of the current wind tunnel facilities at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Bangalore, can accommodate only rather smallish models. Calspan's dimensions allowed larger models of the AMCA to be tested than what could be done at home it seems.


This means we don't have sufficient capacity of normal wind tunnels also let alone vertical ones. So test facility unavailability is causing lot of delays to almost all aerospace projects. AeroEngines, Aircrafts, Rocket Engines, etc. at least desi scientist are getting to visit videsi lands for testing :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2016 02:52

A stinker who never gave up:

Elon Musk: Triumph of His Will

For his entire life, Elon Musk has bent people to his insatiable will. Most recently, he's co-opted NASA. And now we'll see whether he's a) the visionary who forces americans to become explorers again, or b) a man so distracted by vision that his life's work is a series of brilliant disappointments.

By Tom Junod Nov 14, 2012

"There will probably be a lot of people that die," says Elon Musk.


And we have people who are critical about projects getting cancelled.

OK. Done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 18 Jan 2016 07:20

Bhadoria of HAL claims that the only two imported items on HTT-40 are the ejection seats and engines.

It is supposed to have an OBOGS system. Does anybody know where that is being procured from? L&T? In fact, can we put together a list of providers for the main parts?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 18 Jan 2016 13:48

What is the status of second hand wind tunnel which Boeing was to erect in India for USD 300million?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_26622 » 18 Jan 2016 15:31

300 million for a wind tunnel :shock:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_26622 » 18 Jan 2016 15:55

What it takes to become a superpower - investing in domestic facilities - not frittering away money on shiny Rafales and Tin cans like dumbos!

Take US as an example - from Wiki Wind tunnel page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_tunnel : In the United States, concern over the lagging of American research facilities compared to those built by the Germans lead to the Unitary Wind Tunnel Plan Act of 1949, which authorized expenditure to construct new wind tunnels at universities and at military sites. Some German war-time wind tunnels were dismantled for shipment to the United States as part of the plan to exploit German technology developments.[12]

>> This delivered following impressive list of wind tunnels across the 'mighty' nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_tunnels

Compare this to our basic infrastructure investment and one soon realizes that we are so so BS ourselves in to superpower status.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2016 17:04

such farsighted investments have no immediate ROI or prestige....hence a 'user' oriented govt was not interested. only a country aiming for global pawa 'producer' mentality will plan decades ahead.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29268 » 18 Jan 2016 18:34

Well we only had a few decades and our focus have been on lots of other areas as well. Even HAL would not have existed if not for the British/U.S./WW2 etc.. And most of the wind tunnels in the US are pre 1940s when aeronautical research was going at a great pace. Most of the airfoil data bases were generated in these tunnels.
NACA/NASA has been in the business of actual research and not in the design and development. Compare that with HAL/ISRO/etc.. They are in the product designing area. Now why would you require a Wind tunnel if you design 3-4 aircrafts, 3-4 launch vehicles in 5-6 decades.. Agreed NAL does some aeronautical research but even they have diversified(diverted their focus) in the product design (consultancy?) and development. Some of the US tunnels even test automobiles. Where do we stand on automobile aerodynamics, or else where do we stand today in car design? How many cars are designed in India?

Even USAF operates a few wind tunnels. What does IAF do? They don't even have a design team and they boast of 8 decades of in the nations service. They are ready to spend 10's of billions on imported items and not willing to fund a meagre 1 billion on indigenous projects. Its not governments responsibility alone.

There were talks of creating a National Aerospace Authority to streamline the various aeronautical/space activities in the country, don't know what happened further.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2016 18:53

What is the status of second hand wind tunnel which Boeing was to erect in India for USD 300million?


Boeing had promised, as part of an off-set agreement, to set-up (for lack of a better word, a [u]transonic[\u] wind tunnel in India. The last I heard was that Boeing meant they would transfer an existing WT. Not sure, but I suspect it is held up there - a big diff in understanding of what would be done in the off-set, I guess.

Having said that Boeing has set up a "strategic" partnership with Tatas. Do not know if there is any movement via that linkage.



However, what has been preventing India from building one by herself?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ragupta » 18 Jan 2016 19:09

Boeing to help set up transonic tunnel facility

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 346222.ece

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ragupta » 18 Jan 2016 19:13

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/boe ... -rs-1500cr

Similarly, Boeing's deal for 10 C-17 Globemaster aircraft had offsets worth Rs 875 crore. The deal was concluded in June 2011. Boeing pitched the setting up of a Transonic Wind Tunnel (TWT) at a Defence Research & Development Organisation laboratory as offsets "in kind". The Defence Acquisition Council allowed this despite the fact that it was not an eligible offset. The decision was taken without the mandatory certification from DOFA — the Defence Offset Facilitation Agency, a single window agency to facilitate and look into offsets by manufacturers. It comes under the Department of Defence Production.

The MoD told the CAG that Boeing's investment to set up a Transonic Wind Tunnel facility was accepted by the DAC. But the CAG report says, "The Ministry's reply is silent on whether specific waiver of the Raksha Mantri (RM) was sought for the breach of the DPP provisions. It is also not acceptable because the DAC in the same meeting had maintained that investment in kind through non-equity route was not permissible for offset and only purchase of goods and services by OEM from IOP would so qualify."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ragupta » 18 Jan 2016 19:18

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 347295.ece

With the proposed Transonic Wind Tunnel facility and another Rs.350-crore Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, also being set up at Hyderabad by DRDO, the pace of the R & D projects would get hastened. “We can do testing on a regular basis,” he added.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 18 Jan 2016 19:19

ragupta wrote:Boeing to help set up transonic tunnel facility

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 346222.ece


ragupta wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/boeing-transonic-wind-tunnel-facility-in-hyderabad/article3347295.ece

With the proposed Transonic Wind Tunnel facility and another Rs.350-crore Hypersonic Wind Tunnel, also being set up at Hyderabad by DRDO, the pace of the R & D projects would get hastened. “We can do testing on a regular basis,” he added.


They are from 2012.


There is one from May, 2015, which states it is TBD.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 18 Jan 2016 19:35

Some persons on BRF who have hands on knowledge about windtunnels have repeatedly said that a wind tunnel is a no biggie and matter of only tens of crores of rupees. I wonder why so much foot dragging on this issue? Going the way of BPJ it seems.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rohitvats » 20 Jan 2016 12:26

From The Hindu:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/lockheed-martin-looks-at-reviving-bid-to-sell-javelin-missiles-to-india/article8124381.ece


From the report linked above:

Aircraft deal
Lockheed Martin is also bullish on the $5.3-billion C-130J aircraft deal, which includes delivery of 29 C-130J-30s stretch models, 13 HC130 Js, 30 MC-130Js and 6 KC-130 J refuellers.


Was there any interest/RFP from Indian side for the above earlier? Isn't IAF deal supposed to be for 6+6 C-130J aircrafts? Though, truth be told, I don't mind if we get all of the above in the budget quoted. That's about average cost of USD 70 million per a/c

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 20 Jan 2016 12:35

^ these must be for usaf itself. nobody else buys so many.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 20 Jan 2016 15:15

shiv, here's a video of Indian sky diving display team in action in Dubai


Notice the vertical wind tunnel. Indian para-troopers must have similar facilities here.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 20 Jan 2016 16:17

JTull wrote:
Notice the vertical wind tunnel. Indian para-troopers must have similar facilities here.



Nice. The video and Google tell me that the images are from"Inflight Dubai" a commercial skidiving wind tunnel. The video linked below claims that it is the biggest in the world at 16.5 diameter and 68 feet high.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bGnO-rFe1U

But I doubt if Indian paratroop training has these facilities. OT for this thread. If commercial vertical wind tunnels are proliferating for skydiving, how difficult would it be for HAL or NAL to get a piddly 20 foot vertical wind tunnel to test aircraft. Why must these tests happen in France. Paratroops of course train from aircraft but naturally this method would be a lot cheaper.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 20 Jan 2016 17:38

Why can't we order BPJs? Even though we have 2 dozen manufacturers in India exporting to 30 nations? Because we will not to do easy things due to red tape while difficult things in any case cannot be done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 20 Jan 2016 17:55

I don't think it is OT.

http://www.skyventure.com/
Image

Another one here:
http://aerodium.technology/en/models/models/

And if you want to get into recreational business then might want to read this
http://www.bodyflightconcepts.com/f_a_q__s.html


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