Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 20 Jan 2016 19:39

Students Demo C-130J Disaster Relief in Competition

Recently, teams from five leading Indian universities presented design concepts to Indian Air Force officials supporting the disaster relief operations in New Delhi as part of the Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules Roll-On/Roll-Off University Design Challenge.

Lockheed Martin launched the Indian University design challenge in November 2014. The company provided research grants for each university team to work with local industry partners and mentors from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop design specifications for proposed modules that could be used on C-130J Super Hercules cargo aircraft manufactured by Lockheed Martin. The Indian Air Force (IAF) operates a fleet of five C-130J Super Hercules aircraft.

Lockheed Martin provided each team with engineering, technical and business development expertise. The company will award three of the teams a second-year grant in 2016 to develop a prototype of their module and additional mentoring to develop a go-to-market strategy. At the end of the design challenge, Lockheed Martin representatives will work with each team to explore options with government and industry to mature the prototype for global markets.

Teams participating in the challenge are from the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Delhi, IIT Chennai, Delhi Technological University (DTU), University of Petroleum and Energy Studies (UPES), and Birla Institute of Technological Studies (BITS) Pilani-Goa Campus.

"Lockheed Martin has supported the Indian Air Force C-130J fleet since 2008. We are proud of the IAF’s accomplishments in setting new operational records and in multiple humanitarian operations in the past few years. The Super Hercules Roll-On/Roll-Off University Challenge provides new opportunities to develop unique solutions and increase the versatility of the global C-130 fleet, which spans 16 nations around the world,” said Abhay Paranjape, director of Air Mobility Business Development for India at Lockheed Martin.

During this recent round of presentations, students met with Indian Air Force C-130J pilots, engineers and load masters to understand how typical roll-on/roll-off missions are managed for disaster relief operations. The C-130 has a built-in ramp that allows cargo or mission system modules to be literally rolled-on and off, allowing for cargo areas to be reconfigured anywhere in a matter of hours without requiring major design modifications.

In continuous production longer than any other military aircraft, the C-130 Hercules has earned a reputation as a workhorse ready for any mission, anywhere, anytime. To date, almost 2,500 C-130s have been delivered to operators around the world. The IAF is contracted to receive an additional six C-130Js through a Foreign Military Sale with the U.S. government. Indian Air Force C-130Js played an active role in recent disaster relief operations including the Uttrakhand floods and Nepal Eearthquake.

As a part of its larger commitment to enhance the growth and development of India’s innovation and entrepreneurial pursuits, Lockheed Martin has successfully run the India Innovation Growth Programme (IIGP) since 2007 in partnership with the Indian Department of Science and Technology, Indo-U.S. Science and Technology Forum, Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry, Stanford Graduate School of Business, and the IC2 Institute at the University of Texas.

Lockheed Martin’s urban unmanned aerial system programme with DTU has been equally successful, and forms the basis of its future collaborative research and development efforts in India

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 Jan 2016 19:45

rohitvats wrote:From The Hindu:

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/lockheed-martin-looks-at-reviving-bid-to-sell-javelin-missiles-to-india/article8124381.ece


From the report linked above:

Aircraft deal
Lockheed Martin is also bullish on the $5.3-billion C-130J aircraft deal, which includes delivery of 29 C-130J-30s stretch models, 13 HC130 Js, 30 MC-130Js and 6 KC-130 J refuellers.


Was there any interest/RFP from Indian side for the above earlier? Isn't IAF deal supposed to be for 6+6 C-130J aircrafts? Though, truth be told, I don't mind if we get all of the above in the budget quoted. That's about average cost of USD 70 million per a/c


Thats a US deal
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-l ... 7N20151231

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 Jan 2016 19:47

The Hindu guys just copied stuff in part from here
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/who-we ... grams.html

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2016 00:53

A sad day for me.

After 16 Years and Rs 300 Crore, Civil Aircraft Dream Crashlands

By Ramu Patil Published: 20th January 2016 04:45 AM

BENGALURU: India’s most ambitious civilian aircraft project has been given a quiet burial. Rs 300 crore (50 million dollars) was spent on the project, started way back in 1999 to build an indigenous 14-seater aircraft that was expected to put India in the big league and pave the way for the development of bigger passenger airplanes in future.


Bengaluru-headquartered National Aeronautics Limited (NAL) has stopped all work on Saras, the mutli-role aircraft that was named after the Indian crane. The planes already built have remained grounded and those working on the project have been redeployed.

NAL is part of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) headed by the prime minister.

Confirming that work on the project has been completely stopped, NAL director Shyam Chetty told Express: “Funding for the project stopped from December 31, 2013, but the work went on much beyond. Eventually, we had to stop the work when we ran out of lab funds. It was a Rs 300 crore project.

“People who were working on the Saras project were redeployed for other projects where skills sets required are similar as NAL takes up lots of work in the strategic sector,” he said.

The aircraft made its maiden flight in 2004, but the project has always been plagued with glitches. Weight was a major concern as the aircraft was overweight by 1,000 kg. In fact, during the maiden flight, all seats except three — for two pilots and a flight test engineer — were removed to bring down the weight.

A turning point for the project was when a Saras aircraft on test flight crashed in 2009, killing two pilots and a flight test engineer from the Indian Air Force. IAF’s Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment located close to the HAL airport in Bengaluru was conducting tests and the aircraft was carrying out an ‘engine relight’ procedure when it crashed. The project never fully recovered from that crash.

The Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) came out with a report 18 months after the crash. “The DGCA report made it clear that there were no problems with the aircraft or its design. However, those heading CSIR at that point were not too keen on the project, so it never received the kind of encouragement it should have got,” a former NAL officer who was associated with the project told Express. “The flight testing resumed in 2012. But, we had only one aircraft.

The IAF had evinced keen interest in the aircraft as it could have been used to train its transport pilots. NAL was also hoping to find other buyers as the aircraft was being built for multiple roles. There was even a plan to develop a 80-seater plane based on Saras’ success.

“This was India’s first project to design and develop a civilian aircraft. At one point, around 600 people, including those from NAL, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and private sector were working on it,” the former NAL officer said.

“Now, all that work seems to have gone for a waste as the aircraft and the infrastructure created for the purpose are rendered useless.” Currently, two aircraft - one fully built and the other nearly complete - are parked at NAL’s Belur campus in the city.

NAL had built two aircraft and was in the process of making a third one using composite materials to reduce the weight. Saras also flew at air shows in the city. In fact, NAL was able to address the weight issue to some extent in the third aircraft that never took to the skies. In the second one, they used a more powerful engine. Saras aircraft were powered by Pratt and Whitney engines.

The NAL director still seemed hopeful that the project may be revived in future. “Even now we are maintaining the aircraft and we hope that the project will be revived,” he added. Those in the know of the developments, however, are not that optimistic. According to them, the message from the government is very clear - it is not willing to invest in a project that is taking far too much time.

Sources said NAL officials recently gave a detailed presentation to Science and Technology Minister Harsh Vardhan, who is also vice-president of CSIR. “The minister did not give any assurance,” a source said.


Seriously, we could only afford 50 million dollars for a national dream over 14 years, and no more! The curse of an Indian scientist. It hurts me to think of their plight. Why would anybody spoil one's career being that. Just learn screwdrivergiri. Or work in a Bollywood movie. A movie project makes more money these days!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29268 » 21 Jan 2016 04:30

Exactly, why would anyone want to spoil one's career when projects are stopped/cancelled for no apparent reason.? Why would anyone from political establishment be interested in national dreams anyways? What do they know about what should be the pace of a civil aircraft program with 50 mil dollars? One more project which looked in a good shape bites the dust.

Need a Parikar in MofS&T.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby suryag » 21 Jan 2016 04:36

If there is enough business case for the Saras it can always be picked up by Mahindra or some company take the design forward with appropriate tech/knowledge transfer. Let NAL act as consultant only post transfer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ManjaM » 21 Jan 2016 05:29

The Saras effort is only wasted if we don't have a follow up program. Aircraft programs get canceled all the time. It pinches us more because as far as CivAv is concerned the Saras was all we had. the wing looks conventional on the Saras, a new airframe could be designed around it. GoI has decided to cut its losses and close the program, as would any other company if Saras were a private sector effort.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2016 05:50

GoI has decided to cut its losses and close the program, as would any other company if Saras were a private sector effort


While private/public companies fund projects (that have to be profitable), governments fund vision.

I think India should convert a bunch of her islands into places of innovation, prepare a totally different tax structure, etc. A few Elon Musks should help a lot.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29294 » 21 Jan 2016 06:17

Indian bureaucracy will never allow dream projects like Saras to ever be properly funded. What kind of joke is $50 million for clean sheet civilian aviation development? A single large Boeing aircraft will cost several times that, and they are happy to plow several billions into new designs.

Research and development on the project should be handed over to private companies. Their profit motive will allow project to come to completion over the corrupt kickback motive of bureaucracy to under-fund the project for foreign maal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 21 Jan 2016 06:34

What is NAL's role? Design agency or aircraft construction? Design and models without cooperation with a manufacturer can lead to all the issues HAL had in taking over manufacture of the LCA.

I think there should be some way of integrating NAL's role with HAL (or a private agency). NAL and HAL now are a double headed mosnter with each designing aircraft but only HAL has the emans to move forward to manufacture. It is all very well for us to demand Air Force involvement but how does the air force deal with the double headed monster of NAL design versus HAL capability versus IAF requirement?

Sad about Saras but whose baby is Saras?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2016 07:22

NAL was supposed to be a design / theory agency like TsAGI+gromov of russia who came up with the design of the mig29 and flankers while sukhoi and mikoyan refined, tested and produced it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2016 07:22

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 21 Jan 2016 07:26

Singha wrote:NAL was supposed to be a design / theory agency like TsAGI+gromov of russia who came up with the design of the mig29 and flankers while sukhoi and mikoyan refined, tested and produced it.


Yes but the Russian design agency did not actually build any aircraft and then complain that they cannot continue test flying it did they. So there seems to be quite a difference in relationship between designer and maker.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 21 Jan 2016 07:27

I totally agree. saras should ideally have been built and tested by HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shreeman » 21 Jan 2016 07:29

shiv,

The thought seems to be civil aircraft will be private onlee. There wont be ANY in that case. And that is just fine. Saras had issues. Like any other programs. Even as a center for aviation incompetence, it should have been drip fed at bare minimum levels. As punishment deputation posting for ADA and HAL folks who arent quite upto the task.

Or they could have funded it at a level where it could actually have resulted in a product.

Killing it doesnt save any real money. Sarkari naukari means salaries are still the same. Capital expenses were already done with. Why not finish the job? As a technology demonstrator, one tobe given free to every aeronautics department. Hell with field use. NAL is S&T.

Consolidation in the name of money is a laughable excuse. They werent buying the team's credentials. Perhaps so, but it is justifiably "first time" and "we are like this onlee". No different than nything from a sewing needle to PSLV. Let them reinvent the wheel.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shreeman » 21 Jan 2016 07:31

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:NAL was supposed to be a design / theory agency like TsAGI+gromov of russia who came up with the design of the mig29 and flankers while sukhoi and mikoyan refined, tested and produced it.


Yes but the Russian design agency did not actually build any aircraft and then complain that they cannot continue test flying it did they. So there seems to be quite a difference in relationship between designer and maker.


The difference is mandate, and experience. In this case it would not have mattered if saras production agency was HAL (probably built the parts anyway), still would have been cancelled.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29089 » 21 Jan 2016 07:49

Need to keep harping this until it sinks in.

NAL people consider themselves as "scientists" and not even as mere "engineers"
They have no concept of (and perhaps a disdain) for "manufacturing"

This is true in general with most Indian government undertakings and it may even boil down to traits of the society where "manufacturing" is considered inferior.

There are numerous examples of Gov agencies designing products, celebrating mediocre milestones, and never see it emerge as a mass produced item - life goes on

"Design for Manufacture" concept involves not only the product that is easy to assemble but also the design and manufacture of test-jigs that allow faster integration and testing

on the contrary (outside of India) there are many products (autos, planes, etc) whose performance may be far from optimal but were cheap and easy to manufacture and were manufactured.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rkhanna » 21 Jan 2016 10:16

Supposedly the Russians have now Frozen India out of the MTA project (disagreement about Propulsion system) and will go ahead alone.

This could be the result

Aircraft deal
Lockheed Martin is also bullish on the $5.3-billion C-130J aircraft deal, which includes delivery of 29 C-130J-30s stretch models, 13 HC130 Js, 30 MC-130Js and 6 KC-130 J refuellers.


Students Demo C-130J Disaster Relief in Competition



Sad no Indian private entity takes initiatives such as this. This is how you grow R&D capability at a grass root level.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2016 10:35

NAL was never the production agency. In 1999, the project moved forward because HAL became ready to be the production agency, ASTE decided to provide the pilots, IAF showed desire for such an aircraft and the gov provided the funding.

NAL had to produce various parts of the plane such as the wing as the production technique was not available elsewhere in India. All these were to be passed on for production. HAL was to assemble the plane in Kanpur when production began.

There are mentality problems. And I would say this brazenly. You can judge me. The British have left but they have left behind the "babu" culture. The higher we go the lesser we want to get our hands dirty. GunterH you are right there are a sizable number of scientist who would not get down from their high horses. But at the same time there are a sizable number of scientist who worked day and night without appropriate pay and infrastructure to build test structures and 3 planes in 50 million dollars. No matter what you say, and how much you say, you can't take that from them.

The logical conclusion to Saras program is not shelving it. How will we learn to "design for manufacture", if we never manufacture. How will we learn to "design for operation" if we don't operate.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya G » 21 Jan 2016 10:50

India needs to prioritize aero programs that have military purpose and backing - as civvie projects will be judged by commercial success which is an added complexity.

NAL needs to focus on projects with military applications with dual-use civilian applications if they want any hope of actually implementing something on ground.

Organisation wise, I think it is time we merge ADA and NAL into HAL, ASL with BDL, CRDE with VFJ etc to ensure one organisation as R&D and production capability under one roof.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 21 Jan 2016 10:53

Saras as commerical viable project was long dead , All they had was verbal assurance from IAF to buy in VIP transport role if they complete the flight test program and certify it.

They should still continue with Saras program just to get the hands dirty with flight test program and certifying the aircraft which is no small task without which the aircraft is no good to fly or mass produce , even if they make 10 Saras as part of R&D and small production number just to learn how to go about with an aircraft program it would be worth every penny spent , Same for Kaveri program they should pursue the entire flight test program and certify the engine for the aircraft to get the experience of it, else every project ends with good beginning but just half done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Zynda » 21 Jan 2016 13:40

Actually NAL should not be involved in design of an aircraft. It should serve as a subjet matter consultancy (aerodynamics, structural other aspects) to potential aircraft/component builders/designers (HAL/DRDO/Pvt. Sector). Apparently it was decided many moons ago that any commercial aircraft under 100 seater, NAL would be the design nodal agency and for any aircraft beyond 100 seaters, HAL would serve that function.

One of the person I know who was involved in Saras project makes this claim all the time. I don't know about its veracity. Tatas spent close to INR 500 crore on the first Indica, while 300 crore is all that is allotted for a commercial airplane (an airborne product).

I hear NAL is currently helping out ADA on AMCA project.

Hopefully, NAL folks would come up with some way of preserving the knowledge & experience that was gained during Saras development. TCS was developing a software product for Boeing a few years ago which serves the above function i.e. Knowledge based Engineering. A system which can capture design information etc. so that newbies can be trained with minimal effort and relearning overall again via expensive methods are avoided.

BTW, this is what I wish NAL would really do among other things. Folks who have the need to access a whole lot of aero engineering information (white papers, research papers, guidelines materials etc), their sources are US institutions. Mainly via NASA, FAA, DoT, some DoD, USAF/USN documents. I know EU has similar publications but it is proprietary. OEMs buy those publications for internal usage.

I wish NAL could serve the above function for India. NAL does publish some papers and whatever are freely available looks like nothing more than an engineering candidate project work. Not of much use to a practising engineer. Many of the papers or resources from NAL require a subscription to a US based journal or hosting agency. Materials like design manuals or research papers for scenarios where Indic conditions are unique could be addressed. It would be awesome if NAL can take reference books/currently available information and expand on it. Kinda provide it for free to Private & Education sector.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby member_29268 » 21 Jan 2016 16:11

GunterH,
1. lets not mix Scientists and Engineers, both have quiet distinct roles and if you really want to see a Scientist/Engineer better visit an ISRO centre.
Please have a look at the mandate of NAL's inception.
http://nal.res.in/pages/mandate.htm
The three mandates seem to be in chronological order and also signify the relative importance with each other. Note that primary role of NAL has been supporting various aerospace programs in terms of technical expertise. now compare the manpower of 1300 (350 R&D role) which is just equivalent to the strength of LPSC(ISRO) and we expect them to support ISRO/DRDO/HAL etc.. too much to ask IMHO. You cannot expect personal assigned to research and development of new technologies to carry out manufacturing related work. If you force them to them both of these areas will suffer. People at NAL simply won't have time to do quality research in advanced technologies if you ask them to lead on a aircraft design project.

2. Continuing in the same lines, Design for manufacture comes into picture if you have some previous design experience, you cannot straightaway design for manufacture and only a production agency knows how a design can be improved in terms of manufacturing. Take tejas for example. We had TDs,LSPs,SP (Design for Manufacture?),and then Mk1A which is supposed to be (Design for Manufacture and then Design for Maintenance).

3. Outside India many agencies have been producing since more than a century.Cannot compare.

rkhanna, http://www.sparktherise.com/browse-programs/ . Problem has never been external, its always the mentality of the people in power(read at R&D institutions/Forces/Govt. etc.). whenever good have been at the helm great things have happened.

indranil, I have known a lot many people (trust me on that) who have gone on to spend money from their pocket just to complete the work in time.(Its silly that the time it takes to get things procured even when the sums are paltry.) A lot many have had to bypass the system to get things done.

Aditya G, please be sensible. ADA is a program management office in essence, NAL is a research laboratory and HAL a production agency/systems integrator. Merging is not the solution. Its simple as that, you need different ADA's for different sort of programs, NAL as the technical consultant and HAL/TATA/L&T/Mahindra/etc. as production agencies/systems integrator. All of these more people and more money and a clear mandate.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby jayasimha » 23 Jan 2016 17:13

Dint know where to post this...
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=134683

IAF’s Participation in Republic Day Parade 2016


21-January-2016 17:25 IST


IAF’s Participation in Republic Day Parade 2016


India would be celebrating its 67th Republic Day on 26 January 2016. As always, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be an integral part of the Armed Forces’ contingents during the Parade. The IAF’s participation shall consist of the aerial flypast, a marching contingent accompanied by the IAF Band, and a tableau.

The flypast comprises 27 aircraft of the Indian Air Force. Leading the parade would be the traditional ‘Ensign’ formation comprising four Mi-17 V5 helicopters in an inverted ‘Y’ formation. The second and the main phase will be led by ‘Chakra’ formation of three Mi-35 helicopters in ‘Vic’ formation, followed by three C-130J Super Hercules aircraft. This will be followed by the Globe formation comprising one C-17 aircraft along with two Su-30 MKI aircraft. The first fighter formation would comprise five Jaguar aircraft in the shape of an Arrowhead, followed by five MiG-29 upgrade aircraft in similar formation. The Sukhoi formation comprising three Su-30 MKI aircraft will fly in the last phase. The end of the parade will be marked by a single Su-30 MKI aircraft, pulling up vertically in front of the dais and carrying out the signature ‘Vertical Charlie’ rolls.

The Air Force Marching Contingent comprises four officers, including two women officers and 144 airmen. The Air Force contingent will march on the tunes of the Air Force Band.

The Band consists of 72 musicians. Three Drum Majors would play appropriate tunes selected especially for the occasion. While marching past the saluting dais, the band will play the tune ‘Galaxy Riders’.

The theme for the IAF tableau is ’Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief Operations by the Indian Air Force: In Service of the Nation and Beyond’. The design would showcase the IAF’s role in Uttarakhand, Kashmir, Yemen and Nepal rescue and relief operations by displaying models of C-17, C-130 and Mi-17 V5 aircraft. The IAF’s contribution in recent HADR missions has been exemplary and has earned accolades for the Service. Through this theme, IAF would be able to re-affirm its commitment to this crucial role in the service of the Nation, and increasingly, beyond our borders as well.

RCD/MKR/BSK
.............

My feelings & ( predictions)

Each year there will be Pre-rd dress rehearsal. Based on the above, i doubt Doordarshan does any home work/ innovation in coverage. Same old way of covering the rd parade with same old locations.
. Instead they will be right on the mark to show the various mantriji/ madams who will be gazing at some pamplate like their blood test report.
.
as if that is not enough,, if this time DD team is lead by Mahesh Joshi http://www.bellevision.com/belle/index. ... &type=5365 be prepared that your BP will shoot. because this guys pokes his unmentionables in every event covered by DD by coming on stage himself. Last time when Sukhois were doing their display, he was showing his own display...

There will be no co-ordination between commentator at the ground and DD commentators and what is shown on tv... phew...

..... my only hope this time it changes...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kashi » 23 Jan 2016 17:30

^^So no Tejas? I thought there were some reports that Tejas was to participate..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 23 Jan 2016 18:12

Tejas is not inducted in IAF yet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 23 Jan 2016 18:13

N only inducted platform fly on 26

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gurneesh » 23 Jan 2016 20:45

IAF has not flown single engine birds on 26th for a while now. Which is why there will not be a M2000 or LCA display. Probably has to do with safety of the spectators due to presence of birds.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 23 Jan 2016 23:28

Some desi projects to me are questionable not in concept but practicality.Saras is one. The market for a 14 seater within the country was limited to the military/paras and a few corporate entities.Civilian airlines would want a higher passr capacity for better returns. Going by the "Brahmos mantra",very well spelt out by Dr.Pillai,there are times when reinventing the wheel is both expensive,time consuming and requires the required human resource skills,esp. in aviation engineering,in short supply. If we really required a 14 seater,we should've looked at a JV with any number of potential OEMs who specialise in such light aircraft. In fact a 28-30 seater has more relevance for both our mil and civil markets.

Secondly,since we (the NAL) lacked the design/eng skills and experience,Saras was 1t overweight! For such a small aircraft,a fatal flaw from both an economic and tech standpoint.HAL should've been given the task since it was already producing DO-228s and is the only aircraft manufacturer in the country with vast experience.The management of the project from available authentic sources also shows several serious failings. The only silver lining in the programme is that we now know never to repeat the Saras example of an aviation programme.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby sankum » 23 Jan 2016 23:35

Aeromag HAL 75 years special

http://www.aeromag.in/sites/default/files/HAL_75.pdf

Su 30- 162nos produced rest 60nos of 222nos by 2019

Hawk-78 nos produced

IJT- operational clearance in 2015-16.

ALH- 205nos by November2015 production @20-24/year.

Cheetal-15nos produced.

Dorneir-6 nos of 14 nos IAF Feb2015 order produced

355 Chetak produced

276 Cheetah produced.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 24 Jan 2016 23:51

UAE Eyes Moving Mirage Fighters to Iraq's Kurdish Areas, Procuring Rafales

The United Arab Emirates is awaiting final assurances from France and the Iraqi government to sell its fleet of Dassault Mirage 2000-9s before completing their deal for 60 Rafale fighters, Defense News has learned.

The UAE has been looking to sell its fleet of Mirage fighters to the Iraqi Air Force since 2011 and over the years discussions have faltered due to France blocking the deal, according to a UAE government official and a French source knowledgeable about the negotiations, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The intended deal would see the UAE initially provide 10 aircraft to the Iraqi Air Force, with the funds paid directly to Dassault as part of the down payment for the UAE's Rafale deal.



Instead of snapping these up, the PM's 'out-of-the-box' thinking gave us a $10 bn Rafale deal. :groan:

Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 25 Jan 2016 00:06

^^ upgrading those mirages to a common std wouldnt be cheap either.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 25 Jan 2016 00:20

The idea of picking up "eng" M2K-9s as mentioned above by Viv is a better bet and a more cost-effective solution than spending $10B for just 36 Raffys.Yes,they will be expensive to acquire and upgrade.Remember that upgrades of our M2Ks is costing us $2.5B for the lot of approx. 50+,that's $50M for each(!),when we are acquiring brand new 45+ MIG-29Ks for just $30M each and upgrades of all 60+ MIG-29s is costing us less than $1B! Still,even at that price,upgrading 60 newer M2K-9s should cost around $3B,leaving us with around $5-7B in our pockets to spend on more Super Sukhois,LCAs,AWACS/AEW aircraft,tankers,whatever.

It's good that the Raffy deal hasn't been rushed through and hopefully once the dust settles down after M.Hollande departs,the economic reality of it all is fully comprehended and the IAF's ambitions too kept realistic to be achievable.
Last edited by Philip on 25 Jan 2016 00:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 25 Jan 2016 00:21

Karan M wrote:^^ upgrading those mirages to a common std wouldnt be cheap either.


They're all Dash 5 Mk2 standard; RDY-2, Topsight, MDPU, OBOGS, glass cockpit.

Customization with Indian IFF, data-link modules, is a relatively modest job that can be performed by HAL without any trouble.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 25 Jan 2016 00:34

For academic purposes,what would be your estimate for acquisition and modifications of these M2K-5s by HAL?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 25 Jan 2016 00:52

Philip wrote:For academic purposes,what would be your estimate for acquisition and modifications of these M2K-5s by HAL?


Procurement: Qatari was offering nearly brand-new Mirage 2000s (seven years old, lightly used) for $60 mil apiece back in 2005. At this point, I'd guess we could get used ones for $25-40 mil depending on their age.

Modification: Should be a minimal expense. If the LRU modules have the same fit-form as the Mirage's existing components, few hundred thousand dollars. If there's metal cutting involved and/or software upgrades, may be a couple of million.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 25 Jan 2016 01:07

UAE will not sell to us

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 25 Jan 2016 01:09

fanne wrote:UAE will not sell to us


Image

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Jan 2016 01:13

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:For academic purposes,what would be your estimate for acquisition and modifications of these M2K-5s by HAL?


Procurement: Qatari was offering nearly brand-new Mirage 2000s (seven years old, lightly used) for $60 mil apiece back in 2005. At this point, I'd guess we could get used ones for $25-40 mil depending on their age.

Modification: Should be a minimal expense. If the LRU modules have the same fit-form as the Mirage's existing components, few hundred thousand dollars. If there's metal cutting involved and/or software upgrades, may be a couple of million.


Many including myself have been pushing this option for many years....Perhaps now that the raffy numbers are looking doo small, iaf and mod will show interest?

Somehow I doubt they will come too cheap though...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 25 Jan 2016 01:21

This is after temporary divorce between TFTA and their Hoe. The Hoe will be double back at the prospect of us getting the Mirages. Also UAE is actually not one country, and the one having Mirages *may* not be one in the photo.


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