'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Rishi Verma
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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rishi Verma » 01 Jan 2017 00:49

NRaoJi, u say Russia can't do it France can't do it, China has some junk, but magically Indian Amca will appear. All you have to do is see how Indians drive (Rich, poor, educated, or illiterate) and try to drive in India. This is one singular indicator for me to be sure amca will not fly. It will fare worse than Rustom or Saras. I am not happy to state this but thats the sorry state of affairs in India. Driving is just an example, the entire gamut is a mindless chase of a mirage... Thank God we have modi but he is a human and not a magician.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 01 Jan 2017 02:38

NRao sahab, you did miss it. Saab has plans for a stealth gripen follow on. But I hope that we go for atleast a medium sized plane if we want to have internal bays.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Jan 2017 06:35

Rishi Verma wrote:NRaoJi, u say Russia can't do it France can't do it, China has some junk, but magically Indian Amca will appear. All you have to do is see how Indians drive (Rich, poor, educated, or illiterate) and try to drive in India. This is one singular indicator for me to be sure amca will not fly. It will fare worse than Rustom or Saras. I am not happy to state this but thats the sorry state of affairs in India. Driving is just an example, the entire gamut is a mindless chase of a mirage... Thank God we have modi but he is a human and not a magician.


If you're saying that if we continue to do the same things, we will get the same results, you're right. If you hope and expect that Modi & co have enabled or will those who have goals in mind, then there is light at the end of the tunnel.

But first we have to learn (ecosystem) how to make things in quantity fast. That is at the heart of the MII project. The AMCA if it follows the LCA pattern won't ever come and if we buy the FGFA, it will surely never come because we won't have the funds.

If we are smart enough to figure out that we can combine the IAF's operational necessity with MII (the topic of this thread), then we buy the space to invest/build/roll our own.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Jan 2017 06:41

rohitvats wrote:I wish Bharat Karnad focuses more on giving analysis - which as it is seems to border on delusion - than making these stupid comments.


Yeah! really. Told him so (politely). Echo chamber.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 01 Jan 2017 06:53

It's kind of funny, Raytheon who makes the FA-18 radar is participating in the LCA tender.

It's very possible that the Boeing group has this figured out and pushed the top two ticket items under different tenders.
1. Bag LCA radar and allow commonality with FA-18 under HAL TOT tender
2. Push for local production of f414 EPE engine and that serves both the advanced FA-18 ASH prototype as well as Mk-2 LCA. Will reduce costs considerably.

The following additions help their case quite a bit and all of them are incremental so should be much easier and they have been talking about it for a long time now.

3. Add in DAS which the NG group makes for F-35, IRST/EOTS into chin, improve cockpit display and HMD and radar and stealth CFTs/Pods.
4. Since this will be for land use for IAF, they could even implement the FA-18 SLAP program and certify for 12000 hour airframe life, greatly extending hours and years from obsolescence.
5. Boeing becomes consultants for AMCA program from that recent slide they released (speed up Mk-2 and AMCA according to slide on livefist).
6. Most importantly this could bring fa-18GIndia (crippled) kinda full spectrum suppression of EADS and will require less congressional approval to sell if the aircraft is being manufactured in India. It may open doors to JASSM and some other weaponry offlimits right now.

This still leaves the most important first strike aircraft for SEAD which needs to be stealthy.

Perhaps this task could be given to the Navy, if they add in 57-65 of the F-35B. IN can operate mix of Mig29K and F-35B for both their carriers. Much cheaper than adding EMALS/CATS (downside is loss of E-2D and about 130 nm range from f-35C, but easier to bring a scaled up carrier up than adding extra complexity/cost that hasn't gotten its chaadis out of knot yet.)

That way, the IAF doesn't need to replicate this capability right now and can focus on mud moving with Growlers in place once first strike is executed.

This also leaves our own MII some breathing room to grow with LCA mk-2 and AMCA.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 01 Jan 2017 07:19

. Push for local production of f414 EPE engine and that serves both the advanced FA-18 ASH prototype as well as Mk-2 LCA


I assume you mean by "F414 EPE" the effort via the DTTI? If so, not happening in that time frame. That effort is meant for the AMCA - if at all.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby GShankar » 01 Jan 2017 07:20

If Modi-MP have strategic plans, it should be more about re-org of our govt. MIC including all existing entities and creating any new entities as required along with streamlining India based private participation. That is the biggest push he can give to Indian MIC.

I am sure tactical project based priorities are already happening. I recall that Arup Raha was unusually positive overall about LCA M1/1A etc. in walk the talk.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 01 Jan 2017 07:58

Rishi Verma wrote:NRaoJi, u say Russia can't do it France can't do it, China has some junk, but magically Indian Amca will appear. All you have to do is see how Indians drive (Rich, poor, educated, or illiterate) and try to drive in India. This is one singular indicator for me to be sure amca will not fly. It will fare worse than Rustom or Saras. I am not happy to state this but thats the sorry state of affairs in India. Driving is just an example, the entire gamut is a mindless chase of a mirage... Thank God we have modi but he is a human and not a magician.


Plenty of material to talk about.

In passing - "how Indians drive": IF it is the chaos (honking, being self-centered, etc), then it is part of the Indian DNA and it is the foundational aspect of "us". IF, however, you mean the corruption associated with such driving habits (not following basic rules of the road, etc) then, yes that is a problem. However,chaos does have value - believe it or not. Will come to AMCA in a para or two.

Before we go to "magically Indian Amca appear", let us be clear about a few things:
* Based on what I read, I am not sure if any of their vendors have built something/anything that their AFs (Russia/China) truly believe match what the USAF fields. ?????? Comments? It is possible their AFs have a totally diff concept of a "5th Gen" (which has been my belief from day one - which is why I do not like to compare planes between AFs - diff story tho')
* Which is why there is a yuge diff between the PAK-FA and the FGFA too - some 40 odd items diff. ????? Does not mean the PAK_FA is "bad" - just not of any use to the IAF and that is NOT a knock on either the PAK-FA or Sukhoi or the RuAF - it is what it is

OK, AMCA. Magical? I certainly do not think so. In fact, I would suggest that the AMCA is the ONLY item that has been thought about next to the F-22. MAY BE the Japanese have put more thought into their product (I have not followed them at all).

So, why this much confidence?

* "AMCA" started around 1998 as the MCA - a plane that looks like the 6th gen plane designed by Boeing
* That is about 15 years in the making
* From day one they had FbL as the backbone - to the best of my knowledge that has not changed (if that is good or bad is a diff story)
* The cockpit design too has had a very long incubation
* A dedicated, rather small team, has shepherded this plane along - thankfully outside the lime light
* It has gone through 8/9 design changes. That should provide some depth of thought that has gone through
* (I believe it was the ) Last model that went through a wind tunnel test in the US. Seems to me that it has been frozen ever since. ?????
* The team had requested funding - serious funding.
* They had made a request for assistance for an engine via the DTTI from the US. Now, how serious can you be if you were to make such a request. Think about it. This is perhaps the most serious step in IMHO

* The experience of the LCA has had to carry over and make a +ve impact

Indranil wrote:NRao you did miss it. Saab has plans for a stealth gripen follow on. But I hope that we go for atleast a medium sized plane if we want to have internal bays.


Thanks. Have not found anything on it so far.

However, there was a report WRT the Rafale that the French had parted with paint to assist in "stealth" - guess IAF/DRDO/HAL wants to paint the IAF planes into LO. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. And, that is perhaps the way the Grip will go - with perhaps some cosmetic changes - inlets, etc.

I am not talking about such morphing. A stealth plane is designed for stealth and then made aerodynamic - as I understand it. The AMCA - to the best of my knowledge - has followed this principle. Granted within the means of the Indian team.


As an aside, I have immense faith in the AMCA - as a platform (which is what I see "5th gen" planes as). It is very sad that the US has linked the "engine" to one of the teens. But, I guess there is a game to be played. Whatever ...............

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Jan 2017 06:49

A little OT but I don't think (hope) mods will give yellow card.

Turkey is the new 'Syria' story of 2017. I can't think of any politician who in such a short time has managed to spawn so many enemies from so many different fronts. Erdogan has managed to make enemies of the Turkish armed forces (the TAF is operationally crippled as result of purges), ISIS, the Kurds and most of its secular populace—all at the same time.

The Turkish order for 100 F-35s is going to be on the anvil. For economic reasons as much as political ones.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/12 ... abre_nato/

If our Netas really wanted to be agile, 100 F-16s, MI, export, 100 F-35s off the shelf. The F-16 exports alone would pay for some significant amount of the F-35 cost even as they establish a local ecosystem.

Plus, there is reason to believe you can negotiate further offsets like:

"Ayesas is currently the sole supplier for the F-35's panoramic cockpit display and its missile remote interface unit, while Fokker Elmo makes 40 per cent of the aircraft's wiring harness" and consumables. This adds to our MSE ecosystem.

All this buys us time until the AMCA without another gap filler like the FGFA Russian science project.

OK "agile" and "Netas" in the same sentence is improbable. Sort of matter/anti-matter meetup.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Jan 2017 09:39

If our Netas really wanted to be agile, 100 F-16s, MI, export, 100 F-35s off the shelf. The F-16 exports alone would pay for some significant amount of the F-35 cost even as they establish a local ecosystem.


Interesting thought - netas might not be AGILE but who is to say LM is not? Could make the F-16 attractive, esp. with possibly filling IN's fighter need.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 03 Jan 2017 10:57

NRao wrote:
. Push for local production of f414 EPE engine and that serves both the advanced FA-18 ASH prototype as well as Mk-2 LCA


I assume you mean by "F414 EPE" the effort via the DTTI? If so, not happening in that time frame. That effort is meant for the AMCA - if at all.


Yeah, agreed, Mk-2 is not happening. Too many things requiring retesting after installation of new engine.

But it can happen for both FA-18s and AMCA. The st louis line is busy till 2018/2019 anyways. if we order, our orders will come after that. Perhaps a compressed time line can be worked out to make the FA-18s more powerful from get go, or the FA-18s out of India factory could start off with the EPE engine and the first 24/36 retrofitted during MLU.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Neshant » 03 Jan 2017 12:49

What the MK2 does is buy time for the AMCA to be done properly and not half assed.
For that reason alone, MK2 is a Go.

What the F-35 shows is that a load of investments in developing that plane has only produced marginal technological gains and poor bang for the buck. India should be cautious not to simply rush the AMCA project through.

LCA would be a total waste of effort if only 123 MK1/MK1A planes are produced and the project ended.
Another Arjun tank fiasco that inflicts more damage on the country and its industries than anything else.

As for China having a 5th gen aircraft, get real. Rolling out an angled body airframe and sticking it over a 3rd or 4th gen aircraft does not produce a 5th gen aircraft.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 15:45

Cybaru wrote:
NRao wrote:
I assume you mean by "F414 EPE" the effort via the DTTI? If so, not happening in that time frame. That effort is meant for the AMCA - if at all.


Yeah, agreed, Mk-2 is not happening. Too many things requiring retesting after installation of new engine.

But it can happen for both FA-18s and AMCA. The st louis line is busy till 2018/2019 anyways. if we order, our orders will come after that. Perhaps a compressed time line can be worked out to make the FA-18s more powerful from get go, or the FA-18s out of India factory could start off with the EPE engine and the first 24/36 retrofitted during MLU.


EPE/EDE engine project is 4-5 year program at a minimum provided it receives adequate funding and institutional support form the USN to run a full fledged test program on the Super Hornet.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 16:03

Neshant wrote:What the MK2 does is buy time for the AMCA to be done properly and not half assed.
For that reason alone, MK2 is a Go.

What the F-35 shows is that a load of investments in developing that plane has only produced marginal technological gains and poor bang for the buck. India should be cautious not to simply rush the AMCA project through.

LCA would be a total waste of effort if only 123 MK1/MK1A planes are produced and the project ended.
Another Arjun tank fiasco that inflicts more damage on the country and its industries than anything else.

As for China having a 5th gen aircraft, get real. Rolling out an angled body airframe and sticking it over a 3rd or 4th gen aircraft does not produce a 5th gen aircraft.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2096556#p2096556

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 03 Jan 2017 16:10

I guess USN/IN/KF-X program should get together and fund this thing already. Each of these platforms can do with extra oomph.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 16:53

Do you mean FA-XX/NGAD? KF-X is a South Korean project. I would point to Kelly Johnson's 15th rule ;)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 03 Jan 2017 16:56

brar_w wrote:https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2096556#p2096556

+1

The J-20 might be under-powered (or might not if the WS-15 program bears fruit). But in terms of EM stealth and mission systems they've got their bases covered. The real question is how effectively will they manage the software, emcon & maintainability aspects, as well as potential problems (like heat budgeting).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Nick_S » 03 Jan 2017 17:20

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 15m15 minutes ago
Competitive process will be followed to select western fighter to be made in India. Govt to Govt deal will be inked after selection.

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 17m17 minutes ago
On who will be the western partner for the new fighter line, Parrikar says will depend on ToT & financial proposal by OEM.

Dinakar Peri ‏@dperi84 5m5 minutes ago
No discussion or decision on more Rafale fighter jets at the moment: reiterates @manoharparrikar

Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby_ET 15m15 minutes ago
Media reports on additional Rafale jets are speculative - Parrikar

Manu Pubby ‏@manupubby_ET 15m15 minutes ago
Looking at aspects of production, IPR, technology transfer being looked into before signing up for FGFA with Russia: Parrikar

Snehesh Alex Philip ‏@sneheshphilip 21m21 minutes ago
RM @manoharparrikar says India needs 1 more single engine #fighter production line besides Tejas. Will b G2G deal and will be done in 2017

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 4m4 minutes ago
.@manoharparrikar makes it clear that competition for twin engine made in India fighters will be considered. But single engine this year

ET Defence ‏@ETDefence 5m5 minutes ago
.@manoharparrikar says when India decides to go for a twin engine fighter to be made here, will consider the Rafale also. But not now.

Dinakar Peri ‏@dperi84 5m5 minutes ago
Selection of new single engin fighter jet 2 be built in India wl begin once strategic partnrship rules finalized
Last edited by Nick_S on 03 Jan 2017 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Nick_S » 03 Jan 2017 17:24

^ Looks like F-16 will win but I hope any contract is delayed for another dozen or more years.

Instead we should increase LCA production. There is no reason for HAL to limit itself to produce only 16 LCA a year.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Neshant » 03 Jan 2017 18:48

No time today as I have to rush off to work but...

It does seem they are trying to sabotage the LCA by needlessly acquiring a foreign single engine fighter.

This move is disastrous for the LCAs future no matter what BS they spin around it.

As the foreign plane's production is increased, arms dealers will try to convince the govt that the LCA MK2 is no longer needed.

Kind of the same way the T-90 was hastily trialed to bury the Arjun tank. You are witnessing the Arjun-ification of the LCA before your eyes.

It's crazy the way they are buying shit left & right, looks like zero understanding of how to advance the nation's aerospace R&D base.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ragupta » 03 Jan 2017 20:36

This constant fetish for indigenization will make us defenceless in many areas.
When we talk of LCA, why do we forget that there is still many component that will be imported.
We desire TOT, why would anyone share without us paying for it.

Such deals are needed till India is self sufficient in critical areas, which we are not at this stage, it will take time, and that does not mean we leave our defences weak. Also these deals adds to overall exconomic activity.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby tushar_m » 03 Jan 2017 21:06

F16 purchase looks almost final now .

why ???

1. F16 line in US is closing so trump can say that there were no jobs to save .
2. With Israel using F16 version with there weapon systems & IAF using israel weapons(A2A/A2G etc) there is no problem on integration.Also plus point is that no new weapon purchase will be required.

3. F16 will replace older aircraft that need's urgent replacement.
4. F16 will be purchased in equal or slightly higher no. than LCA (100-150) to keep the single engine indigenous planes in healthy ratio.(reduce dependency)
5. Lot of airforce's are still using F16 & will continue to use them for few decade so return on investment & Industry development are good points to consider.

Now twin engine aircraft decision will be taken next year (by MP in some interview)

It makes 3 major contenders (1 maybe)

1. F18 (lot of problem as american jobs will be cut so trump image can take a hit & final decision may take a long time )

2. Rafale : already purchased , IAF happy with it & wants more of them (cost may be concern )

3. FGFA : (While considered separate 5th gen project) if Russia can pull its act together & sign a deal this year then they can say why go for 4th gen when 5th gen is here.Also at appropriate cost , tot , make & made in India tag etc.

4. Eurofighter typhoon : Almost no chance but Europe is having lots of problem(financial & other's) & they maybe willing to make a offer that we can't refuse ????.

If GoI & MoD strategist's are Sharpe (they are no discussion) then both teens will not come.

Rafale & FGFA both can come if negotiation comes in our favor. Both combined will increase technical & Numerical superiority of IAF by many times.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby tushar_m » 03 Jan 2017 21:09

Dinakar Peri ‏@dperi84 5m5 minutes ago
Selection of new single engin fighter jet 2 be built in India wl begin once strategic partnrship rules finalized


Hint US India strategic Partnership = F16.

why would we need strategic partnership with Sweden ?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2017 21:20

tushar_m wrote:
Dinakar Peri ‏@dperi84 5m5 minutes ago
Selection of new single engin fighter jet 2 be built in India wl begin once strategic partnrship rules finalized


Hint US India strategic Partnership = F16.

why would we need strategic partnership with Sweden ?


The FAR bigger fish in all this is the engine (for the AMCA?). I think that is the "strategic" portion of the rule. Also, I would not be surprised to see a far bigger US involvement in carriers. But, first things first - the correlation between the teens and the engine. THAT is where all this started, not MMRCA or elsewhere.

The F-16 (or even the F-18) is a filler, an extremely important one at that.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Amoghvarsha » 03 Jan 2017 21:33

So if its F 16 we may see them flying in India by 2018?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rishi Verma » 03 Jan 2017 21:38

Nick_S wrote:^ Looks like F-16 will win but I hope any contract is delayed for another dozen or more years.

Instead we should increase LCA production. There is no reason for HAL to limit itself to produce only 16 LCA a year.


Here we go again... First order thinking

Nick_S Ji, you have good intentions but need to do some homework before writing advice to GoI.

Do you know why GoI / HAL can't increase production? Because it's not possible.

Do you know currently (as in 2017) HAL can't produce 4 (four as in 3+1) LCA per year without sweating and cursing and assembling dissembling and reassembling?

Do you know that 16/year is a number HAL made up to answer a reporter's question without any plan on how they will do it? And when?

Do you know that current version of LCA design is not frozen and that design changes are still being made? Both LCA-1 and LCA MK1A (or whatever acronym they made up based on the alignment of planets)

So for the foreseeable future for the defense of the nation there is NO option other than to import.

Basically no strong manager with authority and integrity is in charge of the project of national importance.
Last edited by Rishi Verma on 03 Jan 2017 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 21:47

Amoghvarsha wrote:So if its F 16 we may see them flying in India by 2018?


Highly unlikely. 2018 is too soon for anything new to come in. The RM has said they'll decide in 2017 but that could change as the requirements and tender progresses. I don't see a new single engine type landing on Indian soil before 2020.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby maxratul » 03 Jan 2017 21:52

How different are the F16 A/B that israel is selling from the block 70 in terms of aerodynamics? Might be worth it to buy these and start training/tactics formulation etc.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 21:53

There are higher block variants that could be converted sitting in the US surplus stock. Those can actually be taken to higher levels of capability through upgrades if required (such as EW and AESA additions). The F-16A's reallly cannot.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2017 22:08

Rishi Verma wrote:Basically no strong manager with authority and integrity is in charge of the project of national importance.

Where will we find the strong manager with authority and integrity once the F-16 deal is signed? I am assuming that person will be an Indian national correct? I mean, born in India, holds an Indian passport and all the other wonderful stuff that makes someone a national of one nation. So where will this person come from? See the underlying philosophy - not that there is anything wrong in it - in what you are saying.

Desi Aircraft, Desi Company = Weak Manager, with no authority & no integrity
Phoren Aircraft, Phoren Company = Strong Manger with authority & integrity

So we Indians only fall in line when phoren is involved. Amazing! :roll:

Rishi Verma wrote:So for the foreseeable future for the defense of the nation there is NO option other than to import.

You are 100% correct. I say that without sarcasm.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2017 22:29

India Details Make-In-India Fighter Plans
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/01/india-details-make-in-india-fighter-plans.html

India’s next fighter production line will be of a single-engine foreign type, confirmed defence minister Manohar Parrikar today, clearing up speculation that this was still in doubt.

There goes my hope for the F-18. Oh Well! :)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2017 22:42

Strategic Partnership model to be finalised by Jan end, search on for another single engine fighter line: Manohar Parrikar
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/strategic-partnership-model-to-be-finalised-by-jan-end-search-on-for-another-single-engine-fighter-line-manohar-parrikar/articleshow/56316074.cms?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ETTWMain

1) The SP model is in the final stage and is likely to be concluded this month. A meeting will be held next week to finalise it. He says the model would have been finalised in December but has been delayed by a month due to the year end.

2) Parrikar confirms India requires another single engine fighter line that will be done under the SP model.

3) The SP model is the Defence Ministry’s important Make in India policy. Under the model, the government is to select private Indian firms to exclusively manufacture military equipments for a specified period. The model was proposed by the Dhirendra Singh Committee in July, 2015. The Defence Ministry then formed an expert committee headed by former DRDO chief, VK Aatre, to formulate the criteria for selection of strategic partners. In April last year, the MOD made the Aatre report public.

4) Parrikar said the Indian company for the single engine fighter jet will be identified through the Aatre committee model. And the western partner for the new fighter line will depend on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the financial proposal of the Original Equipment Manufacturer..

5) Competitive process will be followed to select the western fighter to be made in India. The government to government deal will be inked after selection of the aircraft.

6) Parrikar makes it clear that a competition for twin engine made in India fighters will also be considered, but not this year.


With regards to point 6....Why???? :D How may different types of aircraft is the govt planning to buy?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 03 Jan 2017 22:45

Are they buying Hercules, BSA, Raleigh and Trek cycles?

My bad... That would be Giant and Specialized? BMW cycles?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2017 22:47

NRao wrote: The FAR bigger fish in all this is the engine (for the AMCA?). I think that is the "strategic" portion of the rule. Also, I would not be surprised to see a far bigger US involvement in carriers. But, first things first - the correlation between the teens and the engine. THAT is where all this started, not MMRCA or elsewhere.

The F-16 (or even the F-18) is a filler, an extremely important one at that.


NRao - You've consistently maintained the technology and IPR and engine argument being the main driver for new single engine fighter proposal.

Something which is crucial from AMCA and may be, even LCA Mk2 perspective (BTW - Parrikar said we're keeping LCA Mk2 case open and looking at 2024-2025 timeline).

Also, I think you were the first to sound that when Navy said it will support indigenous aircraft development, it could well be twin engine aircraft of AMCA type. Guess what? Parrikar said that N-LCA will be developed as tech demonstrator as IN needs twin engine aircraft.

On FGFA - Parrikar running a very fine comb through the whole work share agreement. Looking much beyond the screwdriver-giri which HAL was very happy to settle for. I remember you calling out this one as well.

Three strikes out of three.

Take a bow!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2017 22:57

Too lazy to find the engine thread on my phone.

Here is, what I think to be, the "strategic" discussion.

Indo-US Joint Working Group On Jet Engine Meets

Dec 21, 2016.

India and the US have held yet another round of talks on possible collaboration in jet engine technology as both sides inch closer on the issue of defense cooperation.

The Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology met last week at the Wright Patterson Air Force Base at Ohio.

American Ambassador here Richard Verma said both sides had "productive discussions" for future collaboration. However, sources said that India, which has not been able to get requisite power from its indigenous Kaveri engine for fighter aircraft, is seeking "hot engine" technology which the US considers as the crown jewel in the jet engine technology.

The sources said that the US is willing to help with the "cold engine" technology. The new engine is likely to be for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) which is a single-seater, twin-engine fifth-generation stealth multi-role fighter planned by DRDO. Meanwhile, the US has already updated its policy on gas-turbine engine technology transfer to India to expand cooperation in production and design of sensitive jet engine components.

Collaboration for jet engine is one of the key components of the ambitious Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 03 Jan 2017 23:00

Has anyone in the media shed light on the Modi-Carter meeting on his last visit to New Delhi?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2017 23:04

Three strikes hits out of three.


:)

That is my expertise. Was trained for that and practised it and actually saw the results of predicting 25 years into the future. Part of the job description. No bows - just go get a good night's sleep, reboot and go on to the next effort. Quietly.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Zynda » 04 Jan 2017 00:00

How exactly will we benefit on the engine side from this single-engined fighter deal? Will GE set up an assembly or manf plant here in India for F110/414? I guess this has been covered some where on this thread, but to what extent will production gets localized? Will LM's Tier-1 & 2 vendor's vendors move their plants to desh or will the MII be a systems level integration & final assy lines onlee, with many parts coming from US?

I guess this being under MII, most of the tech knowledge transfer will be on the manufacturing & servicing side rather than on the design front. Perhaps for the design, GoI is hoping that FGFA deal will cover that.

So, if all is well, then GoI hopes to have a competitive aero MIC in desh by 2030 onwards...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2017 01:14

Zynda wrote:How exactly will we benefit on the engine side from this single-engined fighter deal? Will GE set up an assembly or manf plant here in India for F110/414? I .........?


TBD. That is what they seem to be discussing right now. Need to wait.

However, I just cannot see India bargaining for a half baked product, if one were to view it from the AMCA point. I would expect this "engine" to be the real deal.

I guess this being under MII, most of the tech knowledge transfer will be on the manufacturing & servicing side rather than on the design front. Perhaps for the design, GoI is hoping that FGFA deal will cover that.


Design of what? The engine, I suspect that is a yes (DTTI). The plane? No idea.

So, if all is well, then GoI hopes to have a competitive aero MIC in desh by 2030 onwards...


Relative to today, India only? Yes.

Globally, ways to go. Engine itself will still need tons of investment. Then sensors - no idea where India stands on this. Weapons, ...........

I am highly bullish. Ache din.



WRT the FGFA, my gut feel is that it would be far superior to the PAK-FA. far being the operative word. It will be up to Indians how far they take it.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2017 04:30

Now that it is sure that an F-16 or Gripen is coming, I wish that it is F-16. Atleast there is a semblance of medium there. Tata-LM: go for it!


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