'Make in India' Single engined fighter

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Jun 2017 01:53

Not unless they loose an engine (??)

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 02:08

If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out.

Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

What is the basis of such arrogance?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Jun 2017 02:23

brar_w wrote:Not unless they loose an engine (??)

In terms of reliability:

Twin engine Russian = Single engine Western

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Jun 2017 02:31

nirav wrote:If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out.

Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

What is the basis of such arrogance?

All of that is overshadowed by the fact that the LCA is an indigenous aircraft and there is strategic value that is unique to its success vis-a-vis the F-16, Gripen, Su-30 or any other acquisition program. If the LCA is not mass produced at a decent production rate (>20/yr) I don't see the AMCA happening before the mid to late 2030s. There are a lot of production, manufacturing and sustainment issues with 5th generation aircraft that require competence in manufacturing and require iterative improvement be achieved, demonstrated and learned via the LCA. Without the 'lessons learnt' one isn't going to be able to produce the AMCA with high confidence on this side of 2035.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Jun 2017 03:09

nirav wrote:If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

Tejas is our own, we will continuously upgrade it, never depending on anyone, while paying arm and leg for every upgrade to LM or Saab, just like Tejas tech helped Jaguar mig 27 Sukhoi s, AMCA tech advancements will also find their way in Tejas , while we will have those humiliating inspections every year for f16 even after paying hard cash for it.

nirav wrote:The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out

Kamaal hai, Leh trials have surprised pleasantly everyone as far as Tejas is concerned, while f16 couldn't even take off. So much for this superior phat panting teen.

nirav wrote:Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

Private companies manage to get these. IOC - FOC with much lesser.

Eurofighter also went through tranches and bought by 4 air forces while having concrete slab in nose.

We accommodated ef2k with demo of its radar on a helicopter. Imagine same concession for Tejas.

Still ef2k won knowing perfectly well that a to g capacity will only come in 2018.

But every excuse for not buying Tejas.

nirav wrote:What is the basis of such arrogance?

This question should be for f16 & grippen supporters why such arrogant behaviour for failed mmrca contenders.

The mmrca should have been called AFF competition 'Any Foreign Fighter' as from 30 ton shornet to Tejas sized grippen all were medium.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Jun 2017 03:30

nirav wrote:If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out.

Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

What is the basis of such arrogance?

Generally I ignore this posters post, but F-16 is at the end of its production cycle, we are not privy to upgrade the internals as we see fit. To keep it fit for another 30 years will require a lot of moolah paid to OEM suppliers to keep the line open for us/upgrade/test etc. Again they can deny anything they don't wish to add and it will require umpteen approvals from pentagon/congress etc. F16 is end of the line, even if it may have a marginally better radar at the moment, but it has far less strategic value as a platform for the country.

All this is bypassed for LCA, plus we really build an industry. The basic LCA will reach FOC pretty soon. I am sure there will be new objections then you will raise.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Jun 2017 03:31

brar_w wrote: All of that is overshadowed by the fact that the LCA is an indigenous aircraft and there is strategic value that is unique to its success vis-a-vis the F-16, Gripen, Su-30 or any other acquisition program. If the LCA is not mass produced at a decent production rate (>20/yr) I don't see the AMCA happening before the mid to late 2030s. There are a lot of production, manufacturing and sustainment issues with 5th generation aircraft that require competence in manufacturing and require iterative improvement be achieved, demonstrated and learned via the LCA. Without the 'lessons learnt' one isn't going to be able to produce the AMCA with high confidence on this side of 2035.

Excellent post Brar!

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 24 Jun 2017 04:16

What I dont understand is why is the GOI even thinking about F-16...surely they know the squeeze is not worth the juice ? What are we missing ?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 04:33

brar_w wrote:
nirav wrote:If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out.

Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

What is the basis of such arrogance?
All of that is overshadowed by the fact that the LCA is an indigenous aircraft and there is strategic value that is unique to its success vis-a-vis the F-16, Gripen, Su-30 or any other acquisition program. If the LCA is not mass produced at a decent production rate (>20/yr) I don't see the AMCA happening before the mid to late 2030s. There are a lot of production, manufacturing and sustainment issues with 5th generation aircraft that require competence in manufacturing and require iterative improvement be achieved, demonstrated and learned via the LCA. Without the 'lessons learnt' one isn't going to be able to produce the AMCA with high confidence on this side of 2035.

I understand and appreciate the strategic value of the LCA.
I however was focusing on capability of the platforms, Solah, mk1 and Mk1A.

@iterative development : I'd appreciate if the posters who write off the Solah BLK 70 as obsolete can educate me, what can be upgraded in the LCA iteratively that can't in the BLK 70?

As it is, the engine,radar and armament is going to be foreign on the LCA for a long time.

In the past 15 years, IAF from public sources has fired twice. Once way back with a mig 21 using an R60 to down the Paki Atlantique and the other time a couple years back, using an MKI to down a Paki balloon in Rajasthan.

Both the jobs are perfectly suited for the LCA. It wasn't possible for the LCA timeline wise to down the Atlantique, but the balloon certainly should have been, timeline wise.

The delay has massively impacted orbat. And it won't be until 2020-2021 that IAF has a full squadron of LCA foc version to actually use the weapon system.

And again we come to the rate of production, HAL did propose to invest part own funds + funds from IAF/IN to ramp up production to 16/yr.

They aren't even discussing anything more. For the moment rates of 20+ sound only like a jingo dream

@capability - a gent above suggested using the judiciary to ascertain why the IAF is going in for a foreign fighter inspite of having the LCA almost ready.

I hate to keep bringing it up, but it can't be dismissed.
The waivers granted by the IAF, some 50 odd out of which 20odd are 'permanent'. This on an ASR of the 80s intended to 'replace' the MiG 21. In Normal circumstances, such results achieved after toiling for decades and making re equipment plans go awry would be deemed 'unacceptable' anywhere in the world.

That the IAF is still sticking with it via Mk1A is proof enough that they do have appreciation of the strategic importance of the LCA.

With the Solah BLK 70, the IAF has access to a jet which specs wise brings way more to the table than the Mk1A ever will.

We don't want to do a reverse paki by being strategically brilliant but tactically stupid.

I'd anyday prefer a mix of 16/yr Solah + 16/yr Mk1A.
Btw, there is no communication from IAF that the Mk1A won't see anymore orders once the proposed 80 are completed.
I'm positive we will see higher numbers of the LCA once the Mk1A are delivered in a time bound fashion.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 24 Jun 2017 05:25

srai wrote:^^^
The only problem is if history repeats itself then India would not have learnt from its past mistake where its hard-earned know-hows/whys got lost. It took India some 30-years to re-establish the aerospace ecosystem that now has the capability to R&D a 4th Gen fighter.

The whole premise is based on we ditching LCA. I do not see that happening, this is just a hedge. I am certain that India will never disregard the know how it has acquired through LCA. LCA will be in production in parallel to any imported solution.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jun 2017 05:40

nirav wrote:If obsolescence of the Solah BLK 70 is a worry for posters, where does that leave the LCA?

The Solah variant on offer will out spec even the Mk1A which btw is far out.

Some are scoffing at Gripen Es FOC date. We seem to forget, the basic LCA hasn't even reached FOC yet !

What is the basis of such arrogance?

Let us use this analogy.

Q. Mirage 2000 induction date? MiG-29 induction date?
A. 1985 for the former and I believe 1986/87 for the latter.

These birds are approximately 30 years old now. Both are being upgraded to last for another 15 years. So basically two 4th generation fighters that have a lifespan of ~ 45 years in the IAF.

Q. F-16, Block 70 Induction Date?
A. For arguements sake, let say 2020. If we use the same numbers as above, the F-16 will be in service till 2065...2020 + 45 = 2065. Agreed?

Now let us rewind 15 years back from 2065. It is 2050 and India and China are on the brink of war. As a side note, most of us will be six feet under or be ash

The J-20 is now a mature platform, at least by Chinese standards. Since the J-20 is not going to be exported, the plane is an unknown quantity. You have no clue what this plane is capable of and do you want to take a 4th generation, F-16 Block 70 (maybe at that time, it will be Block 100) and pit it against it? It is quite easy to sit behing a keyboard and state oh yeah, the F-16 will defeat it. Are you willing to sit in a cockpit and put your life on the line to find out? If the F-16 is the cutting edge of tech, then why is the USAF buy the F-35? Why invest in the F-22? Why is Boeing desiging a sixth generation fighter? Let the USAF use the Block 70 for the rest of eternity.

You are comparing a Block 70 to a Tejas Mk.1A...which is an unfair comparision. What you should be comparing is a F-35A against a F-16, Block 70. And I can guarentee you, the F-35A will come out on top. You may call that an unfair comparision, but you are doing the exact same with by pitting the F-16 against the Tejas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jun 2017 05:41

brar_w wrote:Not unless they loose an engine (??)

Since the RD-33 engines have an infamous failure rate, the MiG-35 can surely compete

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jun 2017 05:51

shiv wrote:Let me put my money where my mouth is. The F-16 remains a very potent aircraft

Hakeemji, now you are starting a flame war

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 06:09

Rakesh Saar,
Will all due respect, I'm responding to posters who say no Solah only LCA.
Now you could patch in the LCA in your scenario for 2065.
Things look better or worse?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 07:36

nirav wrote:Rakesh Saar,
Will all due respect, I'm responding to posters who say no Solah only LCA.
Now you could patch in the LCA in your scenario for 2065.
Things look better or worse?

Who will keep the F-16s constantly upgraded? Every time you want to make changes you will need to run to the US for their permission and know-hows. In the meanwhile the US is focusing its energies on F-35 not F-16s. If you really want to import, then going for F-35 is a better bet. Why would you want to waste valuable FOREX on acquiring "screwdriver-giri" for a legacy platform that the host nation is moving on from?

Imports are meant to be reserved for top-end stuff that India itself can't do as yet. It should be used judiciously to acquire the "edge" against adversaries in limited quantities (i.e. what India can afford with its dollar reserves).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 24 Jun 2017 08:10

I am just assuming that if the F-16 plant has an order book for, say, 100 planes, that means there will be 100 injins available, suitable for Block 70 F-16, whatever that is. In India.
I assume also that those reading this can think.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 08:17

Maybe we are not going for F35 because they are either not available or are too costly for what is clearly a stopgap measure to shore up squadron strength while the local aerospace industry matures. Another small factoid that seems to be missed: almost all F35 customers/users are graduating to the plane from F16s and/or F18s. Whatever we buy or if we buy this will be IAFs first US fighter plane. Maybe that also could be a bar to getting the F35?

The scenario that is being constantly painted of the aging F16s going up against and being shot down by super dooper Chinese 5th generation planes at some future point seems to me rather funny. This pre-suppses two things. One is IAF does not have/will not have a 5th generation fighter in place to counter Chinese 5th generation fighters and that all Chinese planes would be 5th generation (wow, even the 50 centers would be impressed!). The second is that somehow it is fine if the Tejas MK1 goes up against the J20s. I think jingos would be kush thinking the Tejas will spank the Chinese planes but can IAF plan that way?

The point remains that the MoD and IAF are looking at this platform for a quick increase in squadron strength with a workhorse (something the Rafale was supposed to be) with the Tejas and MKI looking after the low end and high end requirements as well setting up a second aerospace centre in the country. As long as the new line doesn't impact Tejas I'm not too sure what the hullabaloo is about. I don't think this potential deal is about new tech infusion save for what the Tatas may learn about producing complex piece of machinery in a time bound manner.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 24 Jun 2017 08:18

Would it conceivably be possibly to acquire the F-16 hardware (fuselage, engine) and mate it to homegrown software (avionics, radar/elint and armaments)? Let the Americans keep control of the former and we can innovate on the latter, which is where the action is.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 08:26

Amit,

When do you expect these "stop gap" F-16s to arrive in India? How many years do you think it will take?

BTW, the cost of F-35 would be comparable to F-16-70 at around $100/unit fly-away.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 08:35

srai wrote:
nirav wrote:Rakesh Saar,
Will all due respect, I'm responding to posters who say no Solah only LCA.
Now you could patch in the LCA in your scenario for 2065.
Things look better or worse?
Who will keep the F-16s constantly upgraded? Every time you want to make changes you will need to run to the US for their permission and know-hows. In the meanwhile the US is focusing its energies on F-35 not F-16s. If you really want to import, then going for F-35 is a better bet. Why would you want to waste valuable FOREX on acquiring "screwdriver-giri" for a legacy platform that the host nation is moving on from?

Imports are meant to be reserved for top-end stuff that India itself can't do as yet. It should be used judiciously to acquire the "edge" against adversaries in limited quantities (i.e. what India can afford with its dollar reserves).

@screwdriver Giri,

I understand that the consensus in here is that in its present form and past form it's useless.

We on the board aren't fully aware of the value that we have sought and seek to derive out of this ToT business.

The powers that be, when investing tens of thousands of crores see enough value in it to keep going in for it.
There has to be something that we are not seeing,yet.

If it were a straight off the shelf buy for 100 jets, I agree the F35 would make more sense.
It is my belief that the level of ToT sought by us is available only on the Solah and not the F35 from the US.

The IAF is clearly on the pakfa/fgfa route for its 5gen needs.
The current need is for a 4th gen jet with a significant ToT content.
What the US does or doesn't isn't as important for us.
What the Solah offers us via ToT and capacity augmentation of the IAF is important.

I do agree that imports should be resorted to when we do not have a local alternative.
I also do believe that the Solah BLK 70 is a capability that our local alternative does not possess and won't even in the Mk1A version.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 08:46

^^^
I see that you are an optimist as far as ToT are concerned. If the deal happens, let's see if you are right.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 08:56

srai wrote:Amit,

When do you expect these "stop gap" F-16s to arrive in India? How many years do you think it will take?

BTW, the cost of F-35 would be comparable to F-16-70 at around $100/unit fly-away.

Srai, don't get me wrong. I'm not part of the rah rah US maal is great crowd. What I'm trying to do is to try and understand the rationale behind what appears to be a very enthusiastic MoD and IAF with regards to a second plane line in the private sector. It's my belief that the reasoning behind this gung ho attitude could be what I've been writing. I could be wrong.

As regards by when the production line can come up it would all depend on how this pans out. However I do believe that the timeline, that is if the Govt puts its full weight behind this project, would be significantly faster than HAL first stabilising its own production and then passing on the gained knowledge (still to be acquired) to a Pvt sector player who would then take time to ramp production to around 12 a year. We have to acknowledge that LM's expertise in this matter is far greater than HAL's

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Jun 2017 09:04

Kakkaji wrote:I am not Philip, but here is the Russian response to talk of F-16 selection by India:

Russia’s fighter jet makers “not afraid” of US competition in India
Any bets on the Mig-35 showing up in IAF colours?

Switch the engines with the snecma-kaveri engine, load it with Indian, Russki and Israeli weapons, and and it might be worth considering.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 09:11

Amit,

As we will all find out again in 5/10/15 years that this "stopgap" deal was not stop gap in its nature at all. Things take awfully long in India.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Jun 2017 09:13

nirav wrote: I also do believe that the Solah BLK 70 is a capability that our local alternative does not possess and won't even in the Mk1A version.

Since you are hellbent on proving LCA Tejas being obsolete and F-16 is better and more capable, first both are not in the same class even though both are single engined.

Can you please tell what is the % of composites used in the F-16 compared to LCA Tejas?
Composite production technology which can be improved and mastered by Tejas production will help India in the long run

The current engine is Imported but Kaveri is being revived, if successful it will help future engine development in India which Imported F-16 engines will not

The design and manufacturing of LCA Tejas will help in development of Indian aviation industry and not license manufacturing of F-16.
The TOT is a big joke USA wont transfer even its last generation RAM paint

And also please elaborate what capability does F-16 bring that its alternative don't have?

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 09:36

srai wrote:Things take awfully long in India.

True. And that applies just as much to HAL stabilising its production line with modern equipment in order to standardise its production to ensure each Tejas is not custom built, then increase production to 16 a year and finally help a private entity willing to invest to set up a production line which will eventually compete with HAL for future orders for Tejas. How long do you think that will take? I'm sure HAL is raring to go to build up a private sector competitor. Public service and all that.

Meanwhile there seems to be a collective amnesia in these parts about what the rationale was behind the now infamous MRCA deal which was about getting 125 aircraft, which could go up to 180, with 19 or so bought in fly away condition with the rest made in India, before Make in India became fashionable. MRCA was sought because the IAF had a requirement for a medium range aircraft to be the backbone of the airforce taking over from the Mirage, MiG29 and Jaguars, with Tejas and MKI fulfilling the low and heavy fighter requirements.

Do you think that requirement is no longer there? Or do you think the Tejas MK1 and MK1A can fulfill that requirement? It's useful to remember that if the French had been reasonable we would have by now seen the ground work being done to set up a new fighter line in the Pvt sector for producing 100 to 150 aircraft. Do those numbers ring a bell?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 09:43

^^^
Taking MMRCA deal as an example, who is to say that this whole MII round 2 will fair better? Now you are involving a JV local private play that knows next to nothing about aircraft production. And then all this talk of ToT. I don't see this happening anytime soon. You haven't committed to a date too

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 09:47

Kakarat wrote:
nirav wrote: I also do believe that the Solah BLK 70 is a capability that our local alternative does not possess and won't even in the Mk1A version.
Since you are hellbent on proving LCA Tejas being obsolete and F-16 is better and more capable, first both are not in the same class even though both are single engined.

Can you please tell what is the % of composites used in the F-16 compared to LCA Tejas?
Composite production technology which can be improved and mastered by Tejas production will help India in the long run

The current engine is Imported but Kaveri is being revived, if successful it will help future engine development in India which Imported F-16 engines will not

The design and manufacturing of LCA Tejas will help in development of Indian aviation industry and not license manufacturing of F-16.
The TOT is a big joke USA wont transfer even its last generation RAM paint

And also please elaborate what capability does F-16 bring that its alternative don't have?

Kakarat ji,
I would request you to read my posts in context.
I'm not trying to prove that the LCA is obsolete.
What I'm trying to 'prove' is that the Solah is no way obsolete like some posters are inferring.

@ToT, for now all we can do is speculate. But I doubt even after a contract is signed, we in the public domain would be aware of the exact nature of ToT. We still don't know how deep was MKI ToT. Yet we paid extra for it. Iirc there were reports that HAL built MKIs were expensive compared to Russian built ones. We still persist with it.
There have been suggestions that the ToT aspect is about 'jobs'. I disagree with it. The focus on 'jobs' is a western protectionism thing. Our thing has always been the ToT aspect.

@composite %ages - it doesn't make sense to get into this comparison simply cause the Solah carries more and farther than the LCA.

I agree with you that the design and manufacturing of the LCA will help our aviation industry.. it's precisely why 50,000 crores have been earmarked and approved by DAC for 80 Mk1A. It btw translates to almost 90 million dollars per Mk1A.
Execution and delivery in a time bound manner is what's needed from ADA/HAL. If they complete the order by 2025-26, it will most certainly get more orders.

Meanwhile the single engined fighter,Solah, at hopefully a similar price point brings in ToT for Tata + augments IAF combat capability with addition of this higher performance jet.

A Marut situation has been skilfully avoided.Now focus is on augmenting squadron strength. I like the Solah+Mk1A mix.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jun 2017 10:08

The F-16 IMO will outclass almost any Chinese aircraft currently in service and will be a match for their J-11/Su-27 knockoffs - especially if equipped with AESA.

When I say Deepika Padukone is good looking I do not imply that Sonam Kapoor is ugly. When I speak positively about F-16, I am not implying that the Tejas is bad.

(Adding taunting emoticon for effect)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jun 2017 10:30

Thats Ok Shiv, as long as costs for the F-16 are capped to say 100 Mil er aircraft and limited 6 sqaudrons with no options and Tejas orders are increased, we all dont want an Arjun saga. Even the Russians see Tejas a greater threat than F-16 in India

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Jun 2017 10:32

Well if the solah is a viable aircraft then so is Fokker triplane. As they are both imports.

I say LCA or nothing. A made in india foreign fighter will not teach any thing that decade of mig and su manufacturing in india did not teach us.

If real learning is desired then LCA is the only option.

If the idea is to be on the perpetual look out for sugar daddy then I say get the F 35 and be done with it.

As it is the only imported aircraft worth getting at the moment.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 10:39

Pratyush wrote:

I say LCA or nothing. A made in india foreign fighter will not teach any thing that decade of mig and su manufacturing in india did not teach us.

So the LCA can fulfill the role of a medium range aircraft in terms of range and payload? Being a jongo is nice but...

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 10:41

srai wrote: You haven't committed to a date too

That's true. But then I'm not an advocate for the sholah. I'm only trying to make sense of the kind of support that Mod and IAF is extending to this move.

However I do think that if say a decision was taken today to ask HAL to set up a line with a private sector collaborator to produce 16 Tejas a year and at the same time LM was asked to go ahead with the Tara's to set up a line to produce 16 F16s, LM would get there first. JMT and other standard disclaimers.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Jun 2017 10:50

Define a medium range aircraft.

And then plot the expected evolution of PLA air defence network. Then tell me what is it that any 4th gen design bringing to the table that a jag or a 27 won't. Except that the airframes in IAF service are 20 plus years old.

Also plot the IAF ability to carry PGM and and the aim points per sortie that can be struck. Contrast it with the PLA air defence network and then tell me how are you are going deal with that. 16 or LCA makes no difference in the ultimate analysis. When it come to warfighting 20 years from now against the PLA.

However, the biggest advantage of LCA is the lesson that will be learnt in overcoming a production related difficulties that will surly arise and will be helpful in bringing about the AMCA.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Jun 2017 10:52

amit wrote:
Pratyush wrote:

I say LCA or nothing. A made in india foreign fighter will not teach any thing that decade of mig and su manufacturing in india did not teach us.
So the LCA can fulfill the role of a medium range aircraft in terms of range and payload? Being a jongo is nice but...

We have had this discussion before. Even DM Parrikar asked a question why more Su-30MKI wouldn't do instead of the expensive MMRCA. Mix of LCA and MKI would do the job.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 11:04

amit wrote:
srai wrote: You haven't committed to a date too
That's true. But then I'm not an advocate for the sholah. I'm only trying to make sense of the kind of support that Mod and IAF is extending to this move.

It's going to happen, no matter what we jingoes feel about it.

The only either/or is Gripen vs Solah.

I prefer the Solah. If we are getting into a "strategic" partnership with the Khan's,might as well go the distance and extract more from Khan.
The Gripen simply can't offer what khan can, strategically.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 24 Jun 2017 11:07

srai wrote:
amit wrote:
So the LCA can fulfill the role of a medium range aircraft in terms of range and payload? Being a jongo is nice but...
We have had this discussion before. Even DM Parrikar asked a question why more Su-30MKI wouldn't do instead of the expensive MMRCA. Mix of LCA and MKI would do the job.

Once the Raksha Mantri got the answer, he approved 36 Rafales, single engined fighter + 83 Mk1A.

He's got the mix right. We need a Shiv Saar-esque dissection on what went on behind the decision.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 11:09

Pratyush wrote:Define a medium range aircraft.

And then plot the expected evolution of PLA air defence network.

Nice try but I'm not biting.

I suggest you either ask the folks in IAF who came up with the MMRCA requirements to define or explain or you share your gaan with us nanha mujahids.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Jun 2017 11:09

If it is going to happen any way then why not get the F 35. it makes a much more compelling case for partnership with khan as well.

amit · Post by **amit** » 24 Jun 2017 11:12

Pratyush wrote:If it is going to happen any way then why not get the F 35. it makes a much more compelling case for partnership with khan as well.

Are you certain that the F35 is on offer and tranches are available for India after satisfying the needs of the launch customers? Also folks here worry that F16 will kill Tejas despite a substantial order on hand. I don't see the same worry of the F35 killing the still paper plane called the AMCA? I find that rather strange.