'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Aug 2017 17:38

Well.. EZ to answer, no comment on correctness (anyway no confirmation. 4 all v no, answers may have been put out to see where they surface).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby negi » 27 Aug 2017 21:17

Here is what I think of any "single engined fighter" efforts. Look at our potential adversaries if we plan around Chipanda TSP will be taken care of. Chipanda's bulk of the single engine fighter fleet is J-7 (Mig-21 copy) and then the J-10 (powered by AL-31 or it's Chinese version WS-10) . Even the Chinese whose budget is 3 times as big as India is equipped with J-7s and J-10s in bulk . Now while our response could asymmetric in the sense that we deploy less but more capable fighters or say even a UCAV all of them will take long development cycles given our existing capability and the kind of budget outlays these programs can get . I think we do not need to do anything disruptive just fix issues with Tejas and field them in numbers to meet our interceptor and air defense needs , now fixing Tejas could mean probably building a Tejas MKIII to make incremental improvements so that it has enough edge as a platform over likes of J-10 . This itself will be a huge achievement and this could perhaps be time boxed into say 3 years . As for maintaining fleet strength to support missions like deep penetration strikes and air superiority those are the areas where Tejas does not fit in and that is where MKI , Rafale or a domestic replacement can come into the picture however that is probably for a different thread.

I think question is going to be is F414 enough to give Tejas the needed edge and can we get the AESA and IFR probe done and still be able to maintain healthy payload and T:W ratio ? That is something which should be verifiable at this stage and then it is a matter of executing to a plan.

I think parallel plan to get a next generation engine or getting Kaveri operational can and should always be carried out however those are long term goals and should be de-linked from IAF's fleet modernization plans.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Y I Patel » 28 Aug 2017 00:35

One issue to button down during negotiations is the licensing for upgrades farther down the road. The experience with Su-30MKI upgrades has not been good in this regard, with Sukhoi corporation dragging its heels even for the modifications for Brahmos missiles (and now with the so called super Sukhoi upgrade.) This also happened with the initial upgrades and modifications for Jaguars, so it is high time India learns to negotiate these all-important details up front rather than be surprised 20 years after the original deal is signed.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Aug 2017 07:37

Yeah I think this is why the fgfa is taking so long, one of the reasons anyway. Do note that such rights will also mean a corresponding increase in price.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Aug 2017 07:43

UlanBatori wrote:Well.. EZ to answer, no comment on correctness (anyway no confirmation. 4 all v no, answers may have been put out to see where they surface).

Ayyo, R u saying mango man has failed basic entrance exam oph fabled Bator region. Can you give back benchers some tip off Saar. After all some atkt shishtem is good.
Or is leaking of paper not within possibility of Mongolian system

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Aug 2017 08:03

Leaking paper would not do any good to anyone and may kill source. Suffice 2 say that F-16 selection is not because of beauty of F-16 or ugliness of F-18 and F-35.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 28 Aug 2017 08:32

As far as one can tell, the F-16 was neither asked for, nor offered. It *seems* to be one of many options on the table to pay for the uprating of the GE F414 INS6. This one seems to have been the most palatable to both sides. I happen to think the options are still open and can change. But, the most likely outcome will be the F-16 line in India. And, IMHO, if it were not for Emperor Trump, it would have been sealed by now.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 28 Aug 2017 08:50

Cain Marko wrote:Ayyo, R u saying mango man has failed basic entrance exam oph fabled Bator region. Can you give back benchers some tip off Saar. After all some atkt shishtem is good. Or is leaking of paper not within possibility of Mongolian system

Cain-ji...can we please drop the Pinglish? A kind request. I can understand a word or two (and I do it myself...phoren is my fav term), but sometimes it takes forever to decipher a single sentence. Much appreciated Saar.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Aug 2017 11:45

Will do sir albeit it sometimes just slips out

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2017 13:02

The latest Vayu has a detailed comparison between the PLAAF and the IAF.Both current and future stats. indicate that the IAF will be hardpressed to meet the challenge,esp. in the future once China's stealth birds become operational.THerefore,acquiring a stealth fighter is an absolute and the FGFA is the aircraft,better placed than the JSF to counter and possess the qualitative edge reqd.The article pointedly underscored the lack of numbers in the IAF,which have a 'quality" of their own!

However,to cut the long piece short,what the IAF require is a 60sqd. fleet not the 42 that has been imposed by the GOI at least a decade ago.WE now have operational between 33-35 sqds.only. The situ has changed completely during the last decade.At that time we assumed that China was a benign power with only a disputed border to resolve.The ambitions of China to replace the US as the dominant nation on the planet,subdue India and the Asian nations,establish a ring of military bases around us in the IOR never entered the minds of most analysts parring a few lonely voices crying in the wilderness ,prophets without honour in their own country!
Therefore,planning for the 60 sqd. fleet is an absolute.At least 1000+ aircraft,approx. 50 sqds. by 2025 as a compromise between the two projections .This means acquiring 300-350 new fighters within 7 years,40-50 fighters a yr. How can this be accomplished and what must be in the inventory as legacy Bisons,MIG-21s and MIG-27s will also be phased out by then ? A combo of desi-built and imported fighters is therefore necessary. The entire number is impossible to build at home.

The aircraft in service that will see through to 2030 are the MKIs,60+ MIG-29 UGs,50+ M2K UGs, 36-54 Rafales (to come),Jag-UGs,and LCAs.There was a recent news item that Nasik was worried what would happen after the 272 order of MKIs was complete.Apart from upgrading at least 200+ of them to SS/BMos std.,extra upgraded MKIs plus at least 2 sqds. of SU-34s could give us at least 100 Flanker variants by 2025.If a total of at least 360 are built/in service by then,it would be equiv. to 18 sqds. Why we need extra heavy hitters is that the projection is that the Chinese will deploy in the future more Flanker derivatives of their own,plus SU-35s and stealth fighters as well in TIbet.

A gap therefore exists for another 180-200 aircraft,at least 100+ LCAs at the average rate of at least 16/yr ,should give us by 2025,120 LCAs.6 sqds.Then there are the 120+ Jags being upgraded and if 30 odd French Jags also come our way,at least another sqd. making 7 Jag sqds. 160-180 MIG-29s,M2Ks,Rafales,(9 sqds) give us a grand total of 40+ sqds. and 800+ aircraft.Of these barring an extra sqd. of Rafales,all will be built and upgraded at home.How can we still acquire the extra 180-200? Of this number,the first sdqs of FGFAs must start coming in not later than 5 yrs. from now, If we acquire the first two sqds. as almost std. SU-57s,we may have at least 1-2 sqds. in service and start FGFA production from 2025 when MKI production ceases.Acquiring/building at home -since we've done the upgrades here,of another 60+ MIG-29/35s gives us another 3+ sqds..Eventually,all legacy/UG 29s should be replaced by MIG-35s. This would still leave another 100+ aircraft reqd. This is where either LCA prod. has to massively increase requiring setting up at least 3 lines producing 40-50 aircraft/yr,or we will have no alt. but to acquire another SE type,best filled in by the Gripen E. The cost is going to be staggering,but better that the cost be staggering ,rather than the IAF after a massed attack from both China and Pak!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 28 Aug 2017 13:43

IMO in coming decade IAF/GoI might go for the 60sqd, certainly on the back of robust economic growth. The time line to get these 60 sqd may be around 2035-2040 and all this MII(F-16/F-35), Rafale, FGFA, etc, can perfectly fit into it without affecting Tejas/AMCA.

By 2035-40, we might have:

Tejas-Mk1/A - 6-7 sqd
F-16 - 7-8 sqd
Tejas-Mk2 - 6-7 sqd
Total - 21-22

Su-30MKI(Super Sukhoi) - 15sqd
FGFA - ~5 Sqd(2035), ~8(2040)
Total: ~22

Rafale- 6-7 sqd, I assume there will be no MII(twin engine) and we will extend the current order.
Remaining M2K and Jaquar - 6-8 sqd(AMCA will replace this).
Total: ~ 15-16

Active production lines at that time: LCA , AMCA and FGFA

Grand Total: ~60sqd

Apart from this there should be order of LCA-Mk2 and F-18 or Rafale by Navy.

Above might be my wishful thinking but it means production of more than 300 Tejas and about 150 AMCA for domestic order only, done by both PEs and PSUs.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2017 13:51

Official timeline for AMCA to enter service is 2030+,leveraging on the FGFA programme to perfect it.However,the exg. design doe snot have (to me) enough internal space for enough weaponry,Making it larger pointless as we have the FGFA.If an LCA-S as I've said before is developed and enters production at least by 2025,it would accelerate the success of the AMCA which could transform into perhaps a dedicated tactical stealth bomber,with N-munition options.The LCA-S to swat any oppn. out of the sky.Being small and stealthy,is would have a huge advantage equipped with 2BVR,2WVR AAMs and a cannon.Addl. WVR AAMs could perhaps be carried in two underwing stealth pods.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Gaur » 29 Aug 2017 15:30

Reads like a lifafa piece by Vivek Raghuvanshi. "Created" to fill space. Still, FWIW

India to announce road map for single-engine fighter program

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/28/india-to-announce-road-map-for-single-engine-fighter-program/
Last edited by Gaur on 29 Aug 2017 20:16, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 19:18

Gaur wrote:Reads like a lifafa piece by Vivek Raghuvanshi. "Created" to fill space. Still, FWIW

India to announce road map for single-engine fighter program

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/28/india-to-announce-road-map-for-single-engine-fighter-program/

Lifafa or not, it is HIS article. You have posted the link. Is it necessary to post the entire article after that? Fair Use, Copyright, etc, etc, etc :)

Please edit your post Saar.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby pandyan » 29 Aug 2017 20:42

Rakesh saar - appreciate your effort and gently encouraging posters to respect copyright laws. Whether we agree with writer and content or not is one thing. But we do need to respect their effort and content :)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 29 Aug 2017 21:05

Nothing new but seems like Trump gives go to F-16 for India


Lockheed Martin offers to export F-16 fighter jets from proposed India facility
Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Howard said the plan to relocate the F-16 plant to India enjoyed the support of the U.S. government after initial concerns it would conflict with President Donald Trump's 'America First' campaign under which he has pressed for companies to invest in the United States and create jobs.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 21:07

Pandyan Saar, I agree. That respect comes from not posting the entire article without prior permission.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Aug 2017 21:27

So, according to the Raghuvanshi article (which I think is pure speculation), the earliest production start for F-16 in India will be in eight years.

Starting production of an 1970s vintage plane in 2025!

Unbelievable :eek: :eek:

And how does that address the shortage of numbers now? :-?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 21:30

Nash Saar: There is or two interesting tidbits in the above article...from the link you posted....

"We will start with an assembly, you can't go from ground zero, from a standing stop to full production in a week. You have to phase it in."

when just a few days earlier, Mr Randall Howard said this...

India line will build 3 - 4 F-16s every month, claims Lockheed Martin
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 366_1.html

“We want to create the capacity to build three or more aircraft per month; we could do four. It depends upon how many aircraft India needs and when it will buy those”, said Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 globally for Lockheed Martin.

Now I know what the pro F-Solah crowd is going to say. The above is when it scales up to full production. So how long will it take from a) Standing Stop to b) Full Scale Production?

Mark my words, I could be wrong, but I will say this. This decision - if it comes to that - is going to be made post 20 January 2021. Trump wil be out and Modi-ji will not have to face the ire of his Twitter's rants when the Gripen E is chosen. A more likely possibility will be if 36 additional Rafales do come - and that is a faint possibility now - that brings down the number of 126 fighters to just 54. Would LM or Saab be willing to move an entire production line for 54 aircraft? See what Mr Randall Howard has said in the link nash posted....

LM is closing in on an international deal for F-16 fighter planes, and has offered to eventually build all the jets at a proposed plant in India if it wins a bigger order to supply the Indian Air Force...

I believe LM's definition of "bigger order" is a minimum 100 aircraft.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 21:34

Kakkaji wrote:So, according to the Raghuvanshi article (which I think is pure speculation), the earliest production start for F-16 in India will be in eight years.

Starting production of an 1970s vintage plane in 2025!

Unbelievable :eek: :eek:

And how does that address the shortage of numbers now? :-?

Kakkaji, there is no squadron shortage...at least not in the dire straits that the press is reporting. The pro F-Solah crowd on BRF is using that as a crutch to argue for the F-16. Now they have no ground to stand on :D Very good find.

But you have missed the actual story. Guess what completes FOC in 2025? Gripen E. That is what the IAF wants, not the GOI, but the IAF. And that is what will likely happen.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Kakkaji » 29 Aug 2017 21:55

If the IAF, and the GOI, are convinced that the current numbers shortage is debilitating, then the best way to address it quickly is to buy 100 F-16s off-the-shelf, get some critical technologies for the LCA and the AMCA as part of the offset from LM, and be done with it. Stop this SEF MII Tamasha.

If the GoI agrees to my suggestion above, an added bonus will be that we will be able to close a few threads, and save a few thousand pages of repetitive discussions till 2025 on BRF. :wink:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 22:00

Kakkaji: The squadron shortage needs to be addressed. No one in the IAF is denying that. But the IAF wants a fighter that it feels what is best for it and all evidence so far, points to the Gripen E. That is not the GOI's Point of View, but then again the IAF does not necessarily concern itself with geopolitics. The IAF is playing for time (and they believe they can) with the MiG-29, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Su-30MKI upgrades. Tejas production is finally ramping up. They are playing for time because they want the Gripen E.

Buying 100 F-Solahs off the shelf would be something that could be entertained but it would fly in the face of Make in India (MII). Not going to happen my friend. Remember, producing F-Solah or Vaporware is supposed to cure India's unemployment woes. Get ready for a few thousand pages of repetitive discussions :lol:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 29 Aug 2017 22:57

Rakesh Saar: that is the story of every production line if we manufacture F-16 or F-18 or Rafale or any other foreign aircraft unless we go for our domestic product: LCA.

Now how and when it will happen, if at all it happens, only time will tell.
But it won't take eight years.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 29 Aug 2017 23:17

nash wrote:Rakesh Saar: that is the story of every production line if we manufacture F-16 or F-18 or Rafale or any other foreign aircraft unless we go for our domestic product: LCA. Now how and when it will happen, if at all it happens, only time will tell. But it won't take eight years.

Saar, our domestic product took more or less the same time as well. I am not denying that. The point being made is that we have been led to believe that F-Solah (BRF has no Vaporware supporters with the exception of Philip Saar, which is surprising) will be quickly inducted. That has now been proven false and it has nothing to do with the article that Gaur posted.


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby samirdiw » 01 Sep 2017 18:57

What are the performance characteristics that IAF is looking for wrt the single engine platform? The electronics and stuff can always be enhanced.

Can someone post a link if its already mentioned somewhere?
Last edited by samirdiw on 02 Sep 2017 07:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2017 05:19

Tata vs Adani Is India Inc's Big New Jet Dogfight
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... fight.html

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2017 05:26

This summarizes today's earlier announcment so beautifully...
https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/9 ... 5937302528

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2017 09:27

If we have to import an SE fighter, and the only reason is as insurance against the LCA becoming our 21st century's HF-24,I would choose the Gripen over the "2 ugly sisters" from the land of the Yanquis,,with tons of make up.It is a travesty that we are even considering them as they're old in the tooth,were rejected in the MMRCA contest too.Simply scandalous!

Here too if the issue is economically acquired numbers,there is a v.strong case for the MIG-35.Both for the light fighter role and med.multi-role req.,where large numbers can also complement the limited Rafale sqds. which are prohibitively expensive. There would be big savings in integration,plant,etc.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 02 Sep 2017 10:27

It is disgusting to note that indian player's are rushing to sign deals with foreign vendors . But the same vendor's are absent when the HAL is looking to enhance it capacity to build LCAs.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 02 Sep 2017 10:30

Philip wrote:If we have to import an SE fighter, and the only reason is as insurance against the LCA becoming our 21st century's HF-24,I would choose the Gripen over the "2 ugly sisters" from the land of the Yanquis,,with tons of make up.It is a travesty that we are even considering them as they're old in the tooth,were rejected in the MMRCA contest too.Simply scandalous!

Here too if the issue is economically acquired numbers,there is a v.strong case for the MIG-35.Both for the light fighter role and med.multi-role req.,where large numbers can also complement the limited Rafale sqds. which are prohibitively expensive. There would be big savings in integration,plant,etc.

F-16s from the US - bad. MiG-29s from Russia of the same vintage - good. Super Hornet, introduced a decade after the two - bad.

On predictable lines, I guess.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_P » 02 Sep 2017 10:49

Philip wrote:If we have to import an SE fighter, and the only reason is as insurance against the LCA becoming our 21st century's HF-24,I would choose the Gripen over the "2 ugly sisters" from the land of the Yanquis,,with tons of make up.It is a travesty that we are even considering them as they're old in the tooth,were rejected in the MMRCA contest too.Simply scandalous!

Here too if the issue is economically acquired numbers,there is a v.strong case for the MIG-35.Both for the light fighter role and med.multi-role req.,where large numbers can also complement the limited Rafale sqds. which are prohibitively expensive. There would be big savings in integration,plant,etc.


Mig 35 , F 18 are twin engine aren't they :?:

And weren't both of them (and the Gripen too) were rejected in the MMRCA contest :?:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 02 Sep 2017 10:57

you guys are trying to explain everything with logic+national interest, which is impossible.

start with greed+confusion and your foray will make more progress.

Khan saheb is building a lot of JSF. and has around 1500 F16s. if at all we want 100, why dont we pick it up there. buy good simulators and a good service pkg .. the pace of induction will then be limited only the induction of JSF(which is fast) and by pace of training our pilots (they have large schools for this) ... block40 and block50 mostly.

Pakis will surely be looking up a few dozen more on the sly for free 8)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 02 Sep 2017 11:34

Singha wrote:Khan saheb is building a lot of JSF. and has around 1500 F16s. if at all we want 100, why dont we pick it up there. buy good simulators and a good service pkg .. the pace of induction will then be limited only the induction of JSF(which is fast) and by pace of training our pilots (they have large schools for this) ... block40 and block50 mostly.

That for is one of the biggest appeals of the F-16. Its got a very robust airframe and most used ones can soldier on for another few decades with a SLEP. Not just the USAF, there are hundreds of F-16s from other operators available on the market. Eg-

Israel to sell F-16As with upgrade package
Normally fierce rivals, Elbit Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries are co-operating on an upgrade package for elderly Lockheed Martin F-16As.

Israel retired its "Netz" fighters earlier this year and is now looking to sell the 40-strong inventory, which would be extensively modernised by the partners.


Problem is, if the MoD had this in mind, it should have never gone down the Rafale rabbit-hole. 50 odd F-16 Blk 70s would have provided a capable core around which to build a large refurbished F-16 fleet with customization, local MRO etc.

All it does, at this point, is to fragment an IAF fleet that already consists of a ridiculous variety in aircraft (even before factoring in the Naval Aviation). Better to rationalize the fleet around the Tejas - build up sufficient capability, pursue a LIFT variant, and keep an eye out for export opportunities. And look out for serviceable second-hand Mirages.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2017 11:43

F-16 Blk 70 did not even came in top 3 in MMRCA competition so MOD/IAF accepting F-16 was a long shot unless IAF is fine with a low grade fighter.

MOD should go full shot and buy and lic make Rafale in India thats the only long term solution to Squadron depletion and Long term block obsolescence IAF is facing instead of buying 40 of each type and make a long term mess like we had in 70's-80

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 02 Sep 2017 12:14

Austin wrote:F-16 Blk 70 did not even came in top 3 in MMRCA competition so MOD/IAF accepting F-16 was a long shot unless IAF is fine with a low grade fighter.

Well it apparently couldn't afford the 'high grade fighter' in MMRCA numbers. And while you can upgrade a used bog-standard F-16 to an F-16V (fairly close to Blk 70 spec), there are no similar cheap Rafales to be had anywhere.

MOD should go full shot and buy and lic make Rafale in India thats the only long term solution to Squadron depletion and Long term block obsolescence IAF is facing instead of buying 40 of each type and make a long term mess like we had in 70's-80

Same problem. 4.5G+ capability at 5G prices.

The only way to get numbers up without breaking the bank, or making a bigger zoo of the fleet, is the Tejas.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 02 Sep 2017 12:54

The prices will go down once we Lic Manuf in India and build its MRO Facilities here.

Rafale has a better upgrade path over its 30 years life cycle compared to F-16 which was already end of life and dead end of its design nothing much to offer in either technology and US unwillingless to share it that meets MOD needs.

If MOD wants Cost Effective Single engine fighter then build the Tejas in large numbers great fighter and Designed and Built in India

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Sep 2017 14:34

Pratyush wrote:It is disgusting to note that indian player's are rushing to sign deals with foreign vendors . But the same vendor's are absent when the HAL is looking to enhance it capacity to build LCAs.

It is not disgusting when psus hold up national security by not delivering on time as promised? Can Hal itself, which has never done anything without handholding from oems, deliver lca fast enough? If not how do you expect it to handhold a newbie? Especially one that will soon become it's competition?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Prasad » 02 Sep 2017 17:54

To amortise costs and sustain the line to keep the jobs created you need fresh orders. Be it F16 or Gripen where is the export market for a 100 fighters? There is none.

Indranil
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Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 02 Sep 2017 19:07

Cain Marko wrote:
Pratyush wrote:It is disgusting to note that indian player's are rushing to sign deals with foreign vendors . But the same vendor's are absent when the HAL is looking to enhance it capacity to build LCAs.

It is not disgusting when psus hold up national security by not delivering on time as promised? Can Hal itself, which has never done anything without handholding from oems, deliver lca fast enough? If not how do you expect it to handhold a newbie? Especially one that will soon become it's competition?

Somehow HAL is doing it now. Have you read who large sections of LCA have been outsourced. HAL only assembles these large sections and completes the final equipping phase.


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