'Make in India' Single engined fighter

[Dileep]

We went to VSSC to see if we can help with their programmes, and the first thing they told us is that "you are not going to make money working with us, but you can market yourself based on this". I also felt that they are content with a bunch of "known entities" whom they developed. Space stuff is always bespoke anyway, so it is easier.

Using the desi programs as stepping stone is the only way for a pvt entity. However, I see two kinds of people there. a) Those who stepped, climbed up and ignored the stepping stone (because it doesn't make business sense) and b)those who couldn't reach anything from the stepping stone.

Things will change with the MII activities. The desi co will be selling to the phoren co under stable techno-commercial terms. Not to the corrupt, moving goal post of desi MIC.

[Singha]

hope it happens like maruti kickstarted the desi auto parts and accessories industry which was stuck at premier padmini and ambassador mkIV levels lol. the M800 though not cutting edge was 2 generations ahead of this little critter - the redoubtable sipani Badal ... now I think we have outfits who can make gears and engine parts which need quality and precision.

[LokeshC]

We went to VSSC to see if we can help with their programmes, and the first thing they told us is that "you are not going to make money working with us, but you can market yourself based on this". I also felt that they are content with a bunch of "known entities" whom they developed. Space stuff is always bespoke anyway, so it is easier.

Using the desi programs as stepping stone is the only way for a pvt entity. However, I see two kinds of people there. a) Those who stepped, climbed up and ignored the stepping stone (because it doesn't make business sense) and b)those who couldn't reach anything from the stepping stone.

Things will change with the MII activities. The desi co will be selling to the phoren co under stable techno-commercial terms. Not to the corrupt, moving goal post of desi MIC.

That's rather sobering to know

[Viv S]

https://twitter.com/RSS_40/status/786099021077213184

MiG-35 to take part in upcoming competition for Indian AF. Rus will most likely offer Egyptian version of MiG-29M/M2

Nope. The Russians are only offering it right. Come now Austin, you know better than to accept a tweet as a fact.

This is the actual news source, Izvestia, quoted by the tweet -


MiGs fly to conquer India -

Dmitry Litovkin, Alex Ramm, October 12, 2016

Russian Aircraft Corporation "MiG" the Defense Ministry of India will offer the latest MiG-35 to participate in the competition for the supply of medium fighter that New Delhi is planning to announce in the near future. Earlier, the Indian side in 2015 rejected the "thirty-fifth", preferring the French Rafale. At this time, the Indian Air Force tender suit, planning to replace 200 MiG-21 and MiG-27.

In addition to the RAC "MiG", an invitation to participate in the competition will receive the Swedish company SAAB with Gripen NG aircraft and American Lockheed Martin with the "Indian" version of the F-16. The main requirement for the participants - the maximum localization of production of fighter aircraft in the territory of India.

- KLA and the RAC "MiG" will participate in the forthcoming competition IAF - told "Izvestia" in Aircraft Corporation. - It remains to wait for the official technical specifications from the Indian government and to receive an invitation. After that, we will prepare and send to New Delhi a package of documents with our proposals.

In the "Rosoboronexport" declined to comment. The Ministry of Defence of India has also failed to clarify the situation rapidly.

According to "Izvestia", is currently in New Delhi completes the formation of technical specifications, which in the form of RFP (Request for Proposals - RFP) will be directionally selected companies participating. This will be the formal launch of a new tender. According to information from sources in the military and diplomatic circles, Indian representatives even this summer turned to Russia with a request to describe a possible packaging MiG-35 that the KLA will be ready to show on the tender. According to the source, the Russian side has sent to India expanded list of equipment and weapons, which included station electronic warfare, suspended optoelectronic sighting containers, the wide range of aircraft weapons, including missiles "Air-air", "air-land", high-precision bombs.

As the source of the newspaper, is largely a set of equipment and weapons similar to what will come to Egypt with MiG-29M.

All members of the future tender met in the years 2000-2015 in the framework of a similar competition for the right to supply 126 fighter jets worth $ 10 billion. In the course of a long tender MiG-35 bypassed F-16IN and Gripen NG, but lost the Rafale French. However, for Delhi this choice has become a Pyrrhic victory. Due to the high prices of India could not buy a hundred, and a total of 36 fighters. In addition, the customer has not received the promised during the tendering technologies and the localization of production Rafale in their enterprises.

The chief editor of the magazine "Arms Export" Andrey Frolov told "Izvestia", the announcement of a new tender could be interpreted as a public recognition of India that the update problem of a rapidly aging Air Force fleet has not been solved.

- In fact, now there is a split tender 2000 - said Frolov. - Rafale bought, but the first cars will be delivered no earlier than 2019. Own Indian fighter Tejas is, apparently, are not ready. And in a situation of mass cancellation of the MiG-21 and MiG-27, something to do with the fleet of urgency.

According to him, the result of the new competition is difficult to predict - as the last time it can last for decades. There are difficulties and invited to participate machines. Sweden is ready to share production technology fighter Gripen, but actually buffet so there is not much. The main components are available from the United States and Europe, which in the end will have to negotiate about the localization of production in a third country.

Another problem with the Gripen, a Swedish media recently reported, is that for the production of new fighter SAAB company is forced to remove the items from the aircraft, the Air Force facing the country. On this occasion, in Sweden recent scandal, which was the essence of the question: does it make sense to "cannibalize" the existing fighter fleet for the production of new cars or better still invest in the development and production of more advanced fighter aircraft modifications. The appearance of the new car from Saab is scheduled for 2019, which, as in the case of the Rafale, does not solve the current problems of the Indian Air Force.

- With the American F-16 easier - says Frolov. - Line for its production in the US rose in 2017, and Washington could theoretically go to its transmission in India.

In practice, however, Americans still anybody and never transferred technology to manufacture their own weapons and military equipment. Especially in the part of the onboard equipment the latest versions of the F-16 Blok 52/57 is a radar with active phased array (AESA), which is considered in the design of modern fighter key know-how.

Head of strategic conjuncture Ivan Konovalov believes that the MiG-35 - the only aircraft with which the Indian military should not be issues.

- The machine has participated in the last tender and showed excellent results, - says Ivan Konovalov. - MiG succumbed to the French Rafale for political rather than technical reasons. The formal reason for the choice in favor of the French aircraft was the fact that under the Indian legislation, the Indian military can not buy weapons and military equipment from only one supplier. And at that time Russia has already signed several major contracts to supply India's Su-30MKI fighters and naval MiG-29K / KUB.

According to the expert, Russia - the only country willing to share with our partners high technology.

- At the time, the Soviet Union gave India a production line MiG-27 fighter-bombers, which New Delhi is planning to replace the just - emphasizes Konovalov. - The aircraft, India has continued to produce even when they ceased production in Russia.

[Cosmo_R]

Karthik, if the orders for more than 40 overall were to be placed, we would see corresponding orders for components being placed with suppliers. Currently there is only talk, no indents have been placed. So all the talk of line expansion is just hot air. HAL dare not set up a line without MoD blessings and an order from its customer. So what is this B's propagated about external suppliers having enough spares but local ones being unable to ramp up? Place the orders first if you want them to ramp up. They're idle right now. Make no mistake, this is Tejas being throttled. And the excuses are amazing.

If you are the IAF and know that you have x amount of CAPEX to build required capability, y amount of fighters being retired and you are dealing with HAL which is promising you a lot but actually has zero experience in building a 4G a/c, you'd play it safe and go with whatever gets you to meeting the required capability goal. You don't want to tie up resources in an unproven venture.

It is not the IAF's job to build an industrial base, fund local r&d or buy local. That is the job of the Industries ministry, MoD, Niti Ayog, whatever. The IAF's job is to be ready to execute diplomacy by other means within a 7/15/30 day period.

Maybe the answer lies in adopting a variation of the Soviet model where the design bureaus like MiG, Sukhoi and Yakovlev designed a/c and provided blueprints to the machine building plants to manufacture. I believe Sukhoi still follows this model with Irkutsk and one other place making SU-30s. Perhaps that's what a SAAB or Boeing could do WRT to the LCA in exchange for firm orders and co-development on AMCA.

JMT

[Cosmo_R]

The MiGs have already conquered India: the IAF is on its knees.

[rohitvats]

OT Alert:

All this discussion about production line and vendor base reminded me of a study I did for a client. The client was looking to assess feasibility of low cost housing and mid-scale hotel in proximity to a large industrial belt up north. And which is evolving with new companies setting-up shop.

While doing an assessment of industrial area, I came across instance of about 500+ acre land being allotted to HONDA motor company. On further evaluation I found that HONDA itself required only about 40% of the land - rest of the land was allotted to vendors supplying directly to HONDA and who'd be located in proximity to the main plant! These vendors were a mix of Indians as well as Japanese - the area has substantial Japanese Expat population.

A single company was generating 1000s of job directly and indirectly.

[Viv S]

If you are the IAF and know that you have x amount of CAPEX to build required capability, y amount of fighters being retired and you are dealing with HAL which is promising you a lot but actually has zero experience in building a 4G a/c, you'd play it safe and go with whatever gets you to meeting the required capability goal. You don't want to tie up resources in an unproven venture.

Problem here is with the scale of the IAF/MoD's commitment.

Here's an important question.. how many Tejas have been ordered to date? The answer's not 120. Or 40. Its actually just20. That's the way the system works. They've ordered 20 but have a firm commitment for 120, and HAL has scaled the production line accordingly.

Its the same everywhere. The US has committed itself to 2,443 F-35s but orders only 50-100 on a annual/bi-annual basis (until the first block buy in 2019). France was committed to 287 Rafales but orders were placed in batches of 60 and funded on an annual basis IIRC.

So the real issue is - why is our commitment so low? What stops the MoD was scaling the objective upto 200 Tejas by 2027, asking HAL to do the needful (if necessary, in partnership with a pvt firm) and then coming up with a fall-back option, even if its to be the F-16.

What is the worst case scenario? HAL performs... we end up with too many fighters? With China building our 80-90 fighters annually, is that really a valid concern? Its not like the an excess of Tejas fighters at $30-40 mil would break the bank. We could export the surplus. Or use the excess capacity to deliver LIFT/AJTs.

But committing the country to such a low figure is unacceptable in my book and a blot on Parrikar's record (one among an increasing number).

[deejay]

If you are the IAF and know that you have x amount of CAPEX to build required capability, y amount of fighters being retired and you are dealing with HAL which is promising you a lot but actually has zero experience in building a 4G a/c, you'd play it safe and go with whatever gets you to meeting the required capability goal. You don't want to tie up resources in an unproven venture.

Problem here is with the scale of the IAF/MoD's commitment.

Here's an important question.. how many Tejas have been ordered to date? The answer's not 120. Or 40. Its actually just20. That's the way the system works. They've ordered 20 but have a firm commitment for 120, and HAL has scaled the production line accordingly.

Its the same everywhere. The US has committed itself to 2,443 F-35s but orders only 50-100 on a annual/bi-annual basis (until the first block buy in 2019). France was committed to 287 Rafales but orders were placed in batches of 60 and funded on an annual basis IIRC.

So the real issue is - why is our commitment so low? What stops the MoD was scaling the objective upto 200 Tejas by 2027, asking HAL to do the needful (if necessary, in partnership with a pvt firm) and then coming up with a fall-back option, even if its to be the F-16.

What is the worst case scenario? HAL performs... we end up with too many fighters? With China building our 80-90 fighters annually, is that really a valid concern? Its not like the an excess of Tejas fighters at $30-40 mil would break the bank. We could export the surplus. Or use the excess capacity to deliver LIFT/AJTs.

But committing the country to such a low figure is unacceptable in my book and a blot on Parrikar's record (one among an increasing number).

Pls recheck your figures on ordered qty.

[Karan M]

Parrikar got an IAF which doesn't much care of commercial realities (of placing orders, sustaining local R&D), a HAL which is content with screwdrivering (since bespoke LCA is too much effort, promises little margin and is ADA not HALs baby) and ADA (which was sitting watching the whole fracas develop, let program management be held hostage to vested interests & might have even let LCA wither on the vine for a "future" AMCA)....to all sit on the same table and commit to 120 LCAs.

That in itself is now a huge achievement. And 120 aircraft out of the Gripen/F-16 team's order book, which was the original plan all along, hence all the talk of there being 60-80 more aircraft required than the original 126 MMRCA. Numbers included 64-86 more options bla bla depending on the report.

LCA would have been cancelled at 40 Mk1, some R&D money for Mk2 was sanctioned but again, it would have been trickled or delayed, and Mk2 orders would silently be eaten up by MMRCA.

A few years down the LCA, there would be an orchestrated campaign by the MSM and the coupta's about how the LCA was sadly a failure & how an immediate decision was required about the MMRCA and IAFs "falling squadron numbers".

ADA and DRDO bigwigs would have been told to sit quite or no AMCA and they would have gone along.

HAL would have heaved a sigh of relief & said AHA, now lets focus on the additional 80 aircraft beyond Mk1 & lets "indigenize" beyond "60%" by getting private industry to build some nuts and washers.

IAF would be happy with the whole fracas since they got rid of their troubles and a few years down the line, reports would come in media about how low capex and revenue budget of IAF plus "desi-genization" of MMRCA meant availability was only 50-60%.

BRF would be talking of FGFA versus JSF. Some screaming for former. Others for latter. Talk of geo-strategery and what not.

Rest would be chewing their nails about AMCA.

Parrikar - make no mistake - headed ALL this shit off & got 120 units spoken for by the IAF with a Mk1 which can be iteratively developed into a Mk1A with relatively straightforward (as versus Mk2) changes.

That is his signal achievement already & he has to stay the course and ensure HAL/ADA deliver & IAF remains on the same path. With Mk1A done, IAF will require more LCAs.

Make no mistake, whether Gripen or F-16 or Rafale, these fighters will ALL be exorbitant and the figures will become clearer. If Modi comes back in 2019, his mandate will be stronger, so will be his authority. Same will apply to MOD decision making which is currrently mostly around fixing the UPA mess.

Under a Modi and Parrikar, there will be an AMCA.

IAF will fall in line. They will support the executive provided they get what they need & see firm program success is also supported by an executive which drives HAL, ADA etc to get it done and will fund it.

And if HAL continues its attitude of thinking AMCA is a step child, in a second term, a confident MOD might even bring in Tata or even a Reliance to work with ADA, since it will care two hoots about opposition propaganda of Modi-pvt sector conspiracy bla-di-bla.

So don't write off the LCA or Parrikar. They have firm commitment from a MOD - finally - which is why ADA head is not upset in that interview.

[Karan M]

Why add another fighter type into IAF we already have too many types of fighters. At least in the future we should standardize on a few fighters right?
I think we should build more Tejas instead of wasting our money on another completely new fighter.

Let me say this for the 3rd time in this thread - this is the thought process of a small lighweight European, Asian or African nation about the size of Bhutan or Sri Lanka situated in a low threat environment. Not for one of the world's biggest nations in a high threat environment and a need to dominate simply to provide our citizens with basic needs. We need to stop thinking like we are a small Pacific Island nation

Shivji, if size translated to # of types, then each country would have multiple types of fighters even today instead of standardization, but that's where the cost of maintain deploy comes in. Here we can't fund what we have, and we are adding more. That's the big issue.

The builders of Tejas are struggling to meet the goal of 8 a month - because we just don't have enough suppliers in the game who can produce quality parts fast enough. There is no easy way of ramping up those numbers.

Then lets place more orders up front & then suppliers will commit. Private sector has to survive without Govt dole, and that makes them very cautious.

Screwdriver imports have the advantage that the manufacturer will supplly all those parts from his pre-existing supply chain while we slowly hunt for, find and fund workshops with the capability we need.

They claim that advantage Shivji, but often fake it. When we induct the type, then we discover teh fakery.

For its size India needs large numbers and depending on one type for large numbers is wrong on many counts. If all our fighters are of 2 types only and there is a peacetime crash that reveals some issue (like the Jaguar hydraulics story) or fatigue cracks in one of the 2 types - then half the Air Force will be grounded. If one single manufacturer produces all the aircraft - a labour issue can paralyse defence production

By all means diversify - to an extent.
Right now - MiG-21, LCA, Su-30, Mirage 2000, MiG-29, Rafale, Jaguar & now yet another MMRCA. Tomorrow, FGFA and AMCA.
And with upgrades, Mirage 2000, Jag, MiG-29 will also be around for a while to come..

There are too many things wrong with the argument that we must reduce varieties ad nauseam and that we will be "overburdened" with logistics. Until we get there there is no point giving excuses for why we must not think big and be big.

The facts are Shivji, that too many types impedes economies of scale & complicates logistics to a bewildering degree.

[Karan M]

In 2016 we have

• Jaguar
  Mirage 2000
  Su-30
  MiG 21
  MiG 27
  MiG 29
  An-32
  IL 76, 78
  Embraer
  C-130
  C-17
  Do-228
  Dhruv
  Alouette 2
  Alouette 3
  Kamov Ka 25/28/31
  Mi 8/Mi 17
  Hawk
  PC-7
  Il-38
  Tu-142
  P8

So for the last 50 plus years we have operated and serviced a multiplicity of types. In 10 years the MiG 21, MiG 27 , Alouette 2 and 3 and Il-38 will be gone.

So what is the exact new worry about logistics?
What sort of plans can be made to cut down the multiplicity we have had for 50 plus years?

That multiplicity of types is exactly why our maintenance costs are up, our revenue/capex figures are almost always out of synch, we don't get proper rebates on MLU (we have limited numbers to spread the money around on, check Mirage 2000 upg costs f.e.) and our serviceability #'s average around 60%. Things have improved after IAF deployed a TCS developed software SCM solution but it cannot compensate for what's not there. Our bases have to be customized to certain types (strategic vulnerability), spares stocks end up being limited & "for want of a nail" type situations frequently arise (since IAF has to deal with bewildering number of entities for each type) and that then ends up involving far too many stakeholders..

Having 2, even 3 or 4 fighter types is understandable. We have currently around 6, dropping one, committed to 2 more - 7. And now talk of a 8th type (which makes no sense). Meanwhile, we have plans for 2 more (which can make sense, given we'll be dropping 3 types from the earlier roster). The current "new MMRCA" though is just irrational decision making. It can be met via many more other alternatives all of which can boost IAF combat power in a more effective manner.

[hanumadu]

How come we have engineers who went through hell, sanctions, resource crunch, lack of experience, work force attrition, bureaucracy and yet come up with an excellent 4+ generation fighter, but don't have people to build those designs to specification? LCA itself is not designed by HAL but it is merely building it. So what does HAL engineers and workers have that others don't have? The suppliers will be working on smaller components which should be much more manageable.

If we have to blow up a wad of cash, we might as well blow it up on building our infrastructure. If we are not confident of our industry rising up to the challenge, I still say we try to make them in addition to any other foreign plane manufactured in India. Another 120 planes at 30 million is 3.6 billion dollars over 10 years. Not a whole lot of money, consider our economy will continue to grow too. Look at how much money US spends/overspends on their military. F22, JSF so over budget and so delayed.

Like others have pointed before, let the government/HAL fund the tier2/tier3 suppliers or create them if necessary with assured orders. We are underestimating and short selling our selves and our industry if we can't trust them to come good under trying situations. We have to start some where to build local capacity. If we have to fill our factories with foreign skilled labour at exorbitant prices for a few years till the necessary skills are transferred to Indian workers, so be it. It will still be cheaper than buying off the shelf products from abroad.

BTW, what skills are we talking about that Indians lack to be able to build components already designed by others?

[JayS]

How come we have engineers who went through hell, sanctions, resource crunch, lack of experience, work force attrition, bureaucracy and yet come up with an excellent 4+ generation fighter, but don't have people to build those designs to specification?

Sir, manufacturing is all about doing it and learning from mistakes and refining over a period of time. The best of the best in the World struggle routinely on Aerospace manufacturing and it doesn't even have to be TFTA technology every time. Even a regular components with traditional technology of manufacturing needs certain time and number of articles to be built before the production is fully debugged and streamlined. One thing that really really matters in manufacturing is actually doing it over and and over and over again and refine it every time. Its a very experience oriented process.

What HAL really need is 3-4 Tier1 companies which can take up big chunks of LCA and help develop supply chain for those individual modules with Tier2/3 companies. GOI doesn't particularly seem as much helpful and willing as it is for some foreign OEM. Even if today HAL finds a supplier who is ready to make some module for HAL, its GOI which has to make sure that all the procedures/clearances/loans/land etc are given quickly without much red-tapism. Remember, HAL's Tumkur Plant for Helicopter stalled for quite some time just because KA govt was unwilling to remove the HT wires passing through the land quickly and were asking HAL to pay 60Cr rupees for that work. GOI has to assure large number for it to be lucrative for private companies. Its not HAL's responsibility alone to develop MIC. GOI has to actively take part into the process. All metal parts of LCA are outsourced, some one is making Wings for LCA and 50+ LRUs are outsourced. Some more efforts and it should be possible to ramp up to 25/yr as per HAL's own estimate. Again approval for 2nd line is pending at MoD for over a year now since its 1000+Cr HAL has no authority to take its own decision on this. All in all, after everything said and done, GOI is not giving sincere efforts on ramping up LCA production, it seems.

Finally it all boils down to how many components you manufacture.

BTW what happened to that proposal of having private company making a fighter with 200+ assured orders and $12B investment?? GOI had given a brief to all big desi biz houses. Never heard of it again.

[JayS]

Well, does this news now make more sense and helps to connect dots? (This is about 1.5 months old news)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 83353.html

Vijayawada, August 21, 2016 -
A weapons integration facility to manufacture Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), said to be the first-of-its-kind in the country in the private sector, will be set up in West Godavari district of Andhra Pradesh at a total cost of Rs 2,135 crore.

Wem Technologies Private Limited is partnering with Lockheed Martin, the largest defence equipment manufacturer in the US, to set up this facility, Chief Minister N Chandrababu Naidu said.

“We have decided to allot 350 acres of land for this facility spread over Vatluru and Bhogapuram villages near Eluru in West Godavari district. In the first phase, they will invest Rs 635 crore and provide employment to 650 persons. In all, 2510 jobs will be created when the facility becomes fully operational,” Chandrababu told a press conference here last night.

Wem currently has orders worth Rs 560 crore on hand, he said.

Other details about the project or its Indian promoters are awaited. — PTI

What does this thing exactly about?? Weapons Integration Facility?? What is that??

[Cosmo_R]

^^^And if HAL continues its attitude of thinking AMCA is a step child, in a second term, a confident MOD might even bring in Tata or even a Reliance to work with ADA, since it will care two hoots about opposition propaganda of Modi-pvt sector conspiracy bla-di-bla."

Maybe ADA should design, get IAF sign-off for minimum viable quantity, have tie up with Boeing/SAAB to build it and get a third party (a private rosoboronexport) to market it abroad.

HAL is increasingly irrelevant except perhaps in helicopters. Maybe it should be re branded "Helicopter Assembly (very) Limited"

[Cosmo_R]

^^^"BTW what happened to that proposal of having private company making a fighter with 200+ assured orders and $12B investment?? GOI had given a brief to all big desi biz houses. Never heard of it again."

You may remember that HAL actively lobbied the MoD/PMO and everyone else to scuttle any Dassault tie up with Reliance during the benighted MMRCA saga. Their management and unions want to retain a monopoly on screwdriver assembly (and on screws for their customers) and delivery at their leisure.

This whole MII stuff is about trying to finesse and outflank PSUs who have over promised and under delivered while sitting on advance payments on which they earn interest and manage cash flow. And don't think that they don't hesitate to reach out to the Russkies for external leverage in a pincer move.

[JayS]

^^ I read an 1986 Article which said the way ADA is being made, while it was too keep it light-footed and away from red-tapism, it will have zero leverage on any of the organizations and it will basically have to hope for goodwill from IAF/HAL/DRDO and other involved agencies to work on LCA.

Guess we are paying for this mistake since SDREs cannot seem to work together getting beyond their personal or organizational egos and prejudices.

For AMCA manufacturing, there could be competitive bidding may be (But HAL need to be give autonomy on par with a private company if it has to be of any meaning, IMO). Or just set it up in private sector right from word go without getting HAL involved. HAL has enough on its plates already. They can concentrate on helicopters and FGFA. Or a 50:50 JV between HAL and a pvt player with completely private ltd setup outside govt PSU structure.

[Karan M]

^^^ Private biz making LCA - More like private biz took one look at the challenge and said easier to do offsets and TOT saar. They are no better than HAL yet, most of them (bar a handful) mindset wise.

[JayS]

L&T doing entire wing assembly for LCA. Some interested in doing fuselage assembly. TAML I think has taken up composite manufacturing (I hope they will industrialise Co-cured Co-bonded tech developed by NAL). These companies have far better temperament and could become lead integrator one day. But such is our system that instead of rewarding them we will see chhota bhai getting the biggest piece of cake.

[JayS]

You may remember that HAL actively lobbied the MoD/PMO and everyone else to scuttle any Dassault tie up with Reliance during the benighted MMRCA saga. Their management and unions want to retain a monopoly on screwdriver assembly (and on screws for their customers) and delivery at their leisure.

This whole MII stuff is about trying to finesse and outflank PSUs who have over promised and under delivered while sitting on advance payments on which they earn interest and manage cash flow. And don't think that they don't hesitate to reach out to the Russkies for external leverage in a pincer move.

This offer was for Tejas MK2. As per news items, GOI was ready with advance order worth 250 jets.

[Karan M]

L&T doing entire wing assembly for LCA. Some interested in doing fuselage assembly. TAML I think has taken up composite manufacturing (I hope they will industrialise Co-cured Co-bonded tech developed by NAL). These companies have far better temperament and could become lead integrator one day. But such is our system that instead of rewarding them we will see chhota bhai getting the biggest piece of cake.

That's what - apart from Tata group & L&T, nobody else really gives a darn about all this. Many LCA suppliers scouted by ADA and DRDO have been doing LRUs out of national pride and all, but FSED and integration requires capex which GOI wants them to cough up and DRDO has no budget to spare either. HAL was asked to surrender margin as dividends.. so off we go.. to the MMRCA races, where money is always around..

[hanumadu]

If we doubt our private manufacturers to build LCA mk1, how will they be able to build mk2, AMCA etc. The technology would have only advanced which would make it even more difficult to manufacture. If its 1000-1500 crore to set up an integration facility, its peanuts compared to what we are spending on imports. Its the life time cost of just one or two imported planes. If there are enough orders for a second line, the initial investment will be recovered by the government.

[Cosmo_R]

You may remember that HAL actively lobbied the MoD/PMO and everyone else to scuttle any Dassault tie up with Reliance during the benighted MMRCA saga. Their management and unions want to retain a monopoly on screwdriver assembly (and on screws for their customers) and delivery at their leisure.

This whole MII stuff is about trying to finesse and outflank PSUs who have over promised and under delivered while sitting on advance payments on which they earn interest and manage cash flow. And don't think that they don't hesitate to reach out to the Russkies for external leverage in a pincer move.

This offer was for Tejas MK2. As per news items, GOI was ready with advance order worth 250 jets.

Sorry don't understand the point. Can you elaborate?

[Cosmo_R]

"Many LCA suppliers scouted by ADA and DRDO have been doing LRUs out of national pride and all, but FSED and integration requires capex which GOI wants them to cough up .."

National pride does not pay bills. Plus, no venture capital or bank loans. Better for individuals who have to pay bills to focus on the next Yo App (Google) than on moonshots for PSUs who don't pay on time.

With nationalized banks you cannot even close an account without 'intervention' , You think you can have an ecosystem that includes PSU as payors would actually work?

It is this realization that PSUs cannot deliver and indeed maybe the cause, that is driving MII. There are many bright individuals and hard workers in the ADA/HAL group but they are in a system that sets them up to fail.

We need to think differently.

JMT.

[Neshant]

The writing is on the wall. GOI is already thinking of doing an IPO on HAL and privatizing the whole enterprise.
If HAL does not start producing results and soon, the management is going to be privatized out of job.
Equity investors won't stand for sloppy management and half-assed performance.

I really hope the news on the tender for a foreign single engine fighter plane is not true.
The repercussions are hugely depressing.

[Neshant]

looks like it is true.

Gentlemen, you are witnessing the planned destruction of the LCA project before your eyes.
Take a moment to capture this point of time in history.

The only thing India is financing by buying expensive sh&t from overseas is the R&D aerospace base of foreign countries... with the odd buzzword of "transfer of technology" thrown in to fool the masses.

___

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 212340.ece

In an aggressive push to capture a share in India’s fighter aircraft market, Swedish aerospace major SAAB has offered its latest radar technology as part of the Gripen fighter package...

[Neshant]

There won't be any need for the LCA after this stuff starts up.

That's the real plan in disguise.
___

India Seeks Foreign Defense Firm to Build Domestic Single-Engine Fighters

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/asia/2016101210 ... t-project/

As part of its ongoing efforts at military modernization, India is in pursuit of a single-engine fighter jet to be built domestically, but based on foreign designs, reflecting Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s "Make in India" initiative. (more like "Screw drivergiri in India")

[vina]

looks like it is true. ..

Like I posted earlier. Saab does NOT have a GaN radar . What is flying on the Gripen E is a Selex radar and Selex is on the blacklist as part of the helicopter scam.

India has already REJECTED Saab's offer for "help" (yeah, whatever that is) for the MK1A. Parikkar is on record for that. Like I said, Saab has nothing offer except for jamborees to Sweden for journalists and interested shills.

[Pratyush]

This is a country of sutias. I am sure that my grand children will be grand parents before the next Indian fighter comes up. No one seems to understand that you don't learn things unless you do things. We are just content with screwdriver assembly. No learning nor any value addition.

HF 24 all over.

[Cosmo_R]

,, No learning nor any value addition.

HF 24 all over.

Agreed but think of why. Do the same thing over and over and you get the same results. Conceptually, nothing different than trying to design autos (Ambys, Padminis etc), computers (Simputer??).

It takes a DARPA to invest long term and to seed fund a lot of things that may not make it to daylight but some that might big time.

Defense is not an issue for our politicians whose idea of 'security' is their own reelection. It goes deep: JLN wanted to get rid of the Indian Army because he believed only a 'police force' was necessary.

That said, how do you not let the LCA go to waste? Take the YOUNG people involved and support them in building AMCA—give them all the DARPA like support they might need. Find a foreign partner who has both the experience of designing and building fighters and partner them with a local powerhouse like Mahindra or anyone who knows how to build at scale.

There are orders for 120 LCA but they will be too little too late for the IAF. By 2022 it will be yesterday's M2K, KFX-E, F-16 Block 52, Gripen etc.

[shiv]

Continuing the point about "multiplicity of types" let me repost a list and see how anyone can do anything about reduction of variety


What might possibly happen in the near to medium term IM is as follows:

It is theoretically possible to replace

• (All IAF in this list)
  Jaguar
  Mirage 2000
  Su-30
  MiG 21
  MiG 27
  MiG 29

With

• LCA Indian
  Rafale Import
  MiG 29 Import
  Su-30 Licence built
  Jaguar Licence built

6 types down to 4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About these:

• An-32
  Avro 748
  IL 76, 78
  Embraer
  C-130
  C-17
  Do-228 (Used by IAF, Navy, Coast Guard)

I can see no near to medium term changes except:

• An 32 replace with MTA?
  Avro with C 295 Import
  IL 76, 78 Import
  Embraer Import
  C-130 Import
  C-17 Import
  Do-228 - replace with Saras?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From this list

• Dhruv (IAF,Army, Navy, Coast Guard)
  Alouette 2
  Alouette 3
  Kamov Ka 25/28/31
  Mi 8/Mi 17
  Mi 25/35

It could become:

• Dhruv (IAF,Army, Navy, Coast Guard) Indian
  LCH (IAF/Army) Indian
  Apache (IAF) Import
  Kamov Ka 25/28/31 Navy Import
  Kamov Ka 226 (IAF, ?Army) Licence built
  LUH (IAF, ?Army) Indian
  Chinook Import
  Add a heavy Naval helo here (Navy) Import

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again from this list

• Kiran
  Hawk
  PC-7

We could get

• Hawk (IAF, Navy) Licence built
  IJT (IAF) Indian
  PC-7 (IAF) Licence built
  HTT 40 (?IAF, ?Army ??BSF Indian

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From here:

• Il 38
  Tu-142
  P 8
  Dornier

We may get

• P 8 Import
  Tu-142 Import
  Dornier (Navy, Coast guard) Licence built
  Shin Maywa

-----

From this Navy list

• MiG 29

We may get

• MiG 29
  NLCA Indian

What scope is there for near to medium term change?

[shiv]

When people speak of multiplicity of aircraft types it must not be forgotten that India has more than just the IAF using aircraft. If we are talking applications, terrain, range , geography etc we need to recall that we have (excluding civilian use)

IAF
Army
Navy
Coast guard
BSF
VIP transport
Remote sensing/Intel operators
Police forces (future Helo requirement)

We need attack and defence aircraft, logistics and transport, heavy, medium and light, over sea, over the worlds highest mountains, ambient temps from +50 deg C to -50 deg C, over sea, short range, medium range, long range.

With all these requirements it is simply not possible to reduce the number of types to less than 10 . I suspect we will forever be requires to use at least 15 different types of aircraft and will need to build an ecosystem for all.

The Russians achieved remarkable standardization. The front tyres of the MiG 21 were the same as tractor tyres. Foxtrot submarines had components that were shared with Soviet era trucks

[JayS]

looks like it is true.

Gentlemen, you are witnessing the planned destruction of the LCA project before your eyes.
Take a moment to capture this point of time in history.

The only thing India is financing by buying expensive sh&t from overseas is the R&D aerospace base of foreign countries... with the odd buzzword of "transfer of technology" thrown in to fool the masses.

___

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 212340.ece

In an aggressive push to capture a share in India’s fighter aircraft market, Swedish aerospace major SAAB has offered its latest radar technology as part of the Gripen fighter package...

Why you are going gaga over this?? Nothing new in this, we are hereing it since last 2yrs. SAAB is ready to bend backwards if they get anything. Because SAAB is pretty much a done deal if Gripen are not sold outside Sweden.

Also no IPO. TSR in an interview made it clear. Last year there was a share buyback infact worth 6000Cr. (I still need to figure out what exactly that means). If GOI is nt willing to do anything then it should just grant HAL financial autonomy n let HAL take loan or issue IPO for funds instead of begging to GoI even to use money from its own pocket. Funny thing is HAL has some 50-60k Cr corpus laying in banks received as advance payment for various projects, which will probably be there for few years (MP has proposed for making War Chest out of such fund lying with PSUs which is worth $7-8 B. Still we have this situation that there is no money for LCA second line. *sigh*

[shiv]

no money for LCA second line. *sigh*

I have never seen anyone say that there is no money for LCA second line.

The only "official" reference to a second line comes from comments from the MD of HAL who said that HAL cannot go beyond 16 per year unless there is participation from private entities - of which they do not have enough even for the first line

Pouring money will not produce private players to contribute to LCA in a hurry, especially when the first production line is struggling to reach full capacity of 16 Tejas per year and they are still trying to get private players to join and produce quality parts in numbers.

Money will, however, get aircraft imported in a big hurry.

If the Air Force needs a boost in numbers within the next 10 years the only viable option may be imports. In fact time is everything here. However I still wonder if "Combat Hawk" for which a supply chain exists in India is an option at all while LCA numbers are ramped up.

[shiv]

Exactly how many types of new build single engine fighters are there for sale in the world today other than Tejas?

F-16
Gripen
JF-17
J-10
AMX
"Combat Hawk"?
S. Korea T-50
Ching-Kuo? (Taiwan)

[Neshant]

Why you are going gaga over this?? Nothing new in this, we are hereing it since last 2yrs. SAAB is ready to bend backwards if they get anything. Because SAAB is pretty much a done deal if Gripen are not sold outside Sweden.

I'm not talking about Saab per say. I'm talking about this drive to import foreign sh&t.
It comes at just the point when the LCA is making headway.
The moment a single engine fighter gets purchased, it will sink the LCA project.
It will be argued there is no need for the LCA.
That's the way the country is kept dependent on unending imports.

Just remember that whenever some guy says "the LCA program will not be affected", its a lie.

[shiv]

The moment a single engine fighter gets purchased, it will sink the LCA project.
It will be argued there is no need for the LCA.
That's the way the country is kept dependent on unending imports.

Just remember that whenever some guy says "the LCA program will not be affected", its a lie.

I respect your viewpoint. But as I see it the only way to keep Indian manufacture alive is to support it fully with funds even as fighters are imported in parallel to keep numbers up. I personally do not think the LCA will die but the more I think about it (and this is my personal view) the more I find "Combat Hawk" an attractive alternative. The downside is HAL again - unless private players can be roped in.

[ldev]

Whether the LCA Mk1/IA/2 ever become the single engine figher mainstay of the IAF may be up in the air. But what the LCA is definitely needed for is export to surrounding countries which are looking for a cost effective light fighter aircraft . Countries such as Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Iran, Vietnam, Cambodia are looking for options. And rather than ceding these markets to the JF-17 which is already flying, It will make sense from a strategic standpoint to have the LCA up and running in some form or fashion to provide India with leverage in these countries.

[K Mehta]

This thread should be titled Single engine MUlti Role Fighter (SMURF) thread.