'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2016 21:44

Manish, as much as I would like to believe it, I do not believe the above video is accurate reporting. Nothing has been reported officially. That is some fan boy creation. Although I am not a big fan of another type joining the IAF, I would not be unhappy if we got the Growler version of the Super Hornet. That is one amazing plane. Only in Amreeka is that possible. A Growler-Rafale-Rambha config - backed with Phalcon AWACS - would be hard pressed to beat.

P.S. Even if we do not go for tech transfer, the Growler is still amazing even in screwdrivergiri. It is Amreeka's attitude towards Pakistan that is challenging. I am not sure how accurate the reporting is, but apparently Trump told Nawaz Sharif that he would love to mediate in the Kashmir dispute :roll:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2016 22:50

In relation to the Growler, check this out...

Meet the military's new $1 billion jammer
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/04/21/meet-militarys-new-1-billion-electronic-jammer.html

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 02 Dec 2016 23:06

Go to the International Navy thread if you want to read up on the Next Gen. Jammer. It is unlikely to be offered since the aircraft and the entire infrastructure behind maintaining its capability (mission libraries supported by multiple government agencies) is not easy to part with since it has strategic importance given its the only full spectrum tactical stand off jamming platform in the US. Outside of Australia or the UK I don't see the Growler being offered in its current form.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 04 Dec 2016 01:07

So..

1. the IAF is looking for a single engined Western fighter, while
2. the Navy wants another three squadrons of ski-jump launched fighters for the INS Vikrant, and
3. the Navy also needs a catapult launched type that will be in production in the 2030-35 time-frame for the INS Vishal.

The forum really needs a banging-head emoticon.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Prem » 08 Dec 2016 03:10

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/12/06/ ... dia-420799

On Obama’s nod, major defense contractors plan to build jets in India

The companies intend to move their production facilities to India. Lockheed may relocate its entire F-16 assembly line, moving manufacturing from Texas to India.While the F-16 has been produced in other countries through joint ventures before, this could be the first time that the entire assembly line has been moved abroad.The F-16 will be produced “exclusively” in India.Furthermore, in addition to to manufacturing and exporting U.S. fighter aircraft, India will also be involved in supporting thousands of F-16s operating worldwide.Having strengthened cooperation with the Indian military in recent years, these deals have the full support of the Obama administration.“Between discussion in working groups and the growing presence of US defense industry in India, we are optimistic about the future of co-developing and co-producing defense systems,” Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said during her visit to New Delhi in August.
Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter will head to India this week, where procurement will likely be discussed further.The deals are expected to boost the “Made in India” initiative at a time when President-elect Donald Trump is fighting to “make America great again” and keep jobs in the U.S.The deal with Lockheed could create 1,000 new jobs for India.“The U.S. is going to substantially reduce taxes and regulations on businesses, but any business that leaves our country for another country, fires its employees, builds a new factory or plant in the other country, and then thinks it will sell its product back into the U.S. without retribution or consequence, is WRONG!” Trump tweeted Sunday.“Please be forewarned prior to making a very expensive mistake! THE UNITED STATES IS OPEN FOR BUSINESS,” he concluded.On the campaign trail, Trump repeatedly criticized foreign countries for stealing U.S. jobs.Lockheed asserts that the deal with India will not cost U.S. jobs.“It doesn’t take jobs away from the U.S., it extends existing jobs, and not just for Fort Worth but for many other companies around the U.S. that build parts for the F-16,” Randy Howard, the director of business development for Lockheed’s integrated fighter group, told the Washington Post.The U.S. is phasing out the F-16 for the F-35. Around 300 mechanics at Fort Worth will be transferred to F-35 assembly line, and other Lockheed employees will be given the opportunity to apply for new jobs affiliated with the company’s newer programs.While it is considered outdated in the U.S., the F-16 is still one of the most widely used aircraft in the world today.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby svinayak » 09 Dec 2016 11:20

Make India great again? Fighter jet giants look to move production to India
TRUMP TRANSITION
Make India great again? Fighter jet giants look to move production to India
Cody Derespina
By Cody Derespina Published December 08, 2016 FoxNews.com

An F-16 sits on the runway at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson in 2015. (AP)
Donald Trump may meet his match when he goes toe-to-toe with another world leader who’s showing prowess at strong-arming American companies into helping make his country great again.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing are the two major companies involved in discussions to build fighter aircraft production plants in India as part of that country’s “Make in India” initiative, which is essentially a mirror-image of President-elect Trump’s aggressive desire to keep manufacturing jobs within the United States. Trump has made retaining blue-collar jobs a post-election priority, and he’s already had a high-profile success in preventing the loss of several hundred jobs at Indiana’s Carrier plant.

“The U.S. is going to substantially reduce taxes and regulations on businesses, but any business that leaves our country for another country, fires its employees, builds a new factory or plant in the other country, and then thinks it will sell its product back into the U.S. without retribution or consequences, is WRONG!” Trump said in a series of Sunday tweets.

BUDGET CUTS LEAVE MARINE CORPS AIRCRAFT GROUNDED

Trump earlier this week also showed a willingness to go after jet maker Boeing, in particular, when he publicly sparred with the company over the cost of a new Air Force One fleet.

The “Make in India” program, which is the brainchild of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, aims to eventually increase the country’s manufacturing base to a quarter of the gross domestic product. So when the Indian government required new jets to replace its aging fleet, any corporation that wanted to be involved knew the planes – an F-16 by Lockheed or F/A-18 by Boeing – would have to be built in India.

“But this is not oursourcing socks here, this is outsourcing military fighter jets,” said Jay Sekulow, Chief Counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice.

Sekulow’s group has already started a “Petition to Stop Giving Control of our Fighter Jets to Foreign Nations,” and he plans to deliver the demand to Congress later this week. :lol: Sekulow told FoxNews.com his office has already received calls from Lockheed workers in Fort Worth who’ve said they’re being given notice, offered severance packages or told they can apply to work on the F-35 program – though, with no guarantee of being accepted.

A Lockheed spokesperson, however, told FoxNews.com the Fort Worth plant was ramping down production anyway as the U.S. Air Force moved on from the antiquated F-16 and switched to the newer F-35 jet.

“So if you look at the big picture here, thousands of jobs have already gone away as we close out the building of F-16s. That’s a given at this point; there’s nothing we can do to change this,” said Randy Howard, the director of business development for Lockheed’s integrated fighter group. “So what our offer does is seek to mediate that. To remedy that. To bring back those jobs as much as possible. It adds jobs in India, but it also brings back jobs in Fort Worth and across the U.S.”

Howard said opening up a plant in India would actually reinstate about 500 Lockheed staff positions that support F-16 production, “predominantly” in the United States. He also guaranteed “all F-16 workers will have a job available to them on the F-35 production line.”

Boeing, too, told FoxNews.com that it’s F/A-18 production line in St. Louis “continues to have a solid future.”

“Our proposal to meet the needs of the Indian Air Force’s fighter requirements entails creating a separate new Super Hornet production facility in India where Boeing has had a presence for more than seven decades,” Boeing said in a statement. “We’re optimistic about the opportunity to continue our work in St. Louis and add a new production line in India which would also create more opportunities for our entire Super Hornet supply chain.”

The “Make in India” program is supported by President Obama’s outgoing administration, which is looking to strengthen ties with India. Secretary of Defense Ash Carter on Thursday visited India and an official statement said the two countries’ continued cooperation “will strengthen India’s ‘Make in India’ initiative.” A Pentagon spokesperson declined to comment more specifically on the program.

Sekulow, who said he was first alerted to the India news by former military officers who are a part of his group’s national security team, said he was all for increasing trade and relations with India, but that military manufacturing was a step too far.

“President [Obama] is not very good with lines in the sand,” Sekulow said. “But here’s one he should draw.”

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 09 Dec 2016 11:34

Jay Sekulow is an evangelist first and a lawyer second. He set up Christian Advocates Serving Evangelism and targets India because his organization is disallowed from violating the tenets of the Indian constitution!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 09 Dec 2016 12:32

The forum really needs a banging-head emoticon.




Image



Image

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ragupta » 09 Dec 2016 12:59

Viv S wrote:So..

1. the IAF is looking for a single engined Western fighter, while
2. the Navy wants another three squadrons of ski-jump launched fighters for the INS Vikrant, and
3. the Navy also needs a catapult launched type that will be in production in the 2030-35 time-frame for the INS Vishal.

The forum really needs a banging-head emoticon.


India is aiming big, with US trying to reduce its presence, the time has come for India to take some responsibility.
In next 5 years.
1. F-16
2. F-35
3. F-18

1 & 3 India production, later 2. work sharing 30-50% . "That the way aa ha aa ha, I like it aa ha aa ha..."
:)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_P » 09 Dec 2016 14:09

Responsibility of ?

If it is of the workload of Khan (containing the dlagon or whatever that may be) then will Khan foot even part of the bill... na na na re na re na na

ragupta wrote:India is aiming big, with US trying to reduce its presence, the time has come for India to take some responsibility.
In next 5 years.
1. F-16
2. F-35
3. F-18

1 & 3 India production, later 2. work sharing 30-50% . "That the way aa ha aa ha, I like it aa ha aa ha..."
:)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Dec 2016 13:58

These american jerks are such 'sanction trigger happy', see how in the middle of crisis our friend america has backstabbed :

http://www.freepressjournal.in/india/atms-run-into-legal-hurdle/970557

ATMs run into legal hurdle
— By FPJ Bureau | Nov 12, 2016 07:45 am

New Delhi : Banks may not be able to restart their automated teller machines (ATMs) any time soon because of a legal hurdle created by an American company withdrawing its software licence to a private Indian company servicing over 40,000 ATMs for more than 30 leading public and private banks across India and warning banks not to use its software.

A realisation dawned on the Finance Ministry only on Friday when the ATMs did not start functioning as announced by Prime Minister Modi on Tuesday and the banks expressed its helplessness without recalibration of the machines and the software changes to allow dispensation of the new Rs 2,000 notes.

The Chennai-based Financial Software and Systems Private Limited (FSS) that was managing these ATMs through its own network of highly professional partners and vendors did not respond to the banks’ calls for recalibrating them in view of losing the licence it had from ACI Worldwide Inc. since 2001.

The 1975-incorporated ACI Worldwide, a payment systems company headquartered in Naples, Florida, providing electronic payment softwares, on Friday issued a public notice in newspapers through its Mumbai-based general manager for Middle East, Africa and South Asia, that it has terminated agreement with FSS with effect from November 1, 2016 and as such the banks cannot operate the FSSNet platform using its software products.

Warning that the banks and institutions taking the services from FSS to migrate from FSSNet platform, the notice says they will be infringing intellectual property rights and proprietary rights if the ACI’s soft products are used and ACI reserves its right to initiate appropriate legal action against such infringement.

The notice says the ACI issued a notice to FSS on August 02, 2016 to cure all breaches of its obligations under the agreement by September 01, 2016, failing which the agreement was to be terminated from November 1, 2016. Instead, FSS communicated on September 01, 2016 that it is not in breach of the agreement. “Since the breaches of the agreement were not cured by FSS, the agreement has been terminated with effect from September 01, 2016,” the notice added.

This explains failure of the RBI’s announcement Tuesday night that recalibration of the ATMs may take a while and that “once the ATMs are functional, you can withdraw from ATMs up to a maximum of Rs 2,000 per card per day up to 18 November, 2016 and the limit will be raised to Rs 4,000 per day per card from 19 November 2016 onwards.”

LOGISTICS: Both bankers and ATM service providers cite two major issues of logistic and quantum of money. They say the Rs 100 notes are in short supply and hence ATMs dispensing them are bound to run out of cash. The bankers are quite frank that it will take a couple of weeks for the dust to settle before cash withdrawals from ATMs become smooth as the ATMs are bound to run out of cash due to high demand and short supply of the notes.

Each ATM machine has only 3-4 cassettes that can hold cash in it to dispense. Each cassette has to be configured to dispense a particular value. So far, all ATMs were configured for Rs 100, Rs 500 and Rs 1,000 denomination notes. Official of a company (not FSS) that also manages the ATMs said: “Every ATM has ‘cassettes’ which can hold a particular denomination. To be able to provide Rs 2,000 denomination notes, the cassettes have to be configured, which will take time.” His company is trying to configure one cassette for Rs 50 notes, the software for which is available with it unlike the Rs 2,000 cassettes to be designed and then configures.


Just like christian / maoist terrorism supporter evangelists have retaliated by sabotaging ATMs

These bloody F-16s and F-35s will be sanctioned at the time of war.

Of course even at that time americophiles posing as well wishers of Bharavarsh, will roll their eyes, write on how Bharat should learn to stand on its own.

So blooooody disgusting!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 12 Dec 2016 14:12

Please stick to the topic or desist from posting if you can't. The business between one pvt company and another pvt company has nothing to do with the IAF's MII fighter program.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Dec 2016 18:17

Yes you would like such news being suppressed, the west their media,presstitutes & evangelists have been against DeMo move and they are now using this company to sabotage it.

Same way the vested interests will have sanctions put against us during war.
Last edited by Indranil on 12 Dec 2016 22:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: This is very close to a personal attack. You are walking on very thin ice here.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 13 Dec 2016 02:49

Manish_Sharma wrote:Yes you would like such news being suppressed, the west their media,presstitutes & evangelists have been against DeMo move and they are now using this company to sabotage it.

There are already existing threads on the forum where you can continue to expound/pontificate/fulminate on the issue to your heart's content while still remaining on topic. As for the rest i.e the (phantom) strategic implication of the news article, basic reading comprehension will ought to suffice.

The notice says the ACI issued a notice to FSS on August 02, 2016 to cure all breaches of its obligations under the agreement by September 01, 2016, failing which the agreement was to be terminated from November 1, 2016.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 13 Dec 2016 03:21

That company would have more staff in India than the US. And it's operations have been in India since 15 years. Don't get distracted by legal or license issues between two companies.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2016 11:28

Trump wants an early Thanksgiving what? :rotfl:

For those who hope that after acquiring the "single-engine" Yanqui bird,we'll get the JSF,harken to the voice of the Donald.

The "Turkey" is in great danger cometh the Inauguration. Then Trump too is in great danger because almost all his policies advertised are the complete opposite of the Washington establishment. Rapproachment with Russia,criticising the CIA,stopping (funding) commitments to NATO,making (most likely) the Exxon Mobil C'man Sec. of State who has ties to Russia,about turn on "One China" policy,etc.,etc. Dumping or severely curtailing the JSF turkey would be a massive blow to Lockheed and the USA def. industry which has wasted trillions on the bird. Trump is enraging too many vested interests in the US establishment,he should remember what happened to JFK.

https://www.rt.com/usa/370014-trump-f35-save-billions/
Trump says F-35 program cost ‘out of control’, wants to save ‘billions of dollars’
Published time: 12 Dec, 2016 13:33

The latest target of President-elect Donald Trump’s criticism is the Joint Strike Fighter program. He tweeted that, under his administration, the US military will end the overspending and save billions of dollars.
"The F-35 program and cost is out of control. Billions of dollars can and will be saved on military (and other) purchases after January 20th," he wrote.

The F-35 program and cost is out of control. Billions of dollars can and will be saved on military (and other) purchases after January 20th.
6:56 PM - 12 Dec 2016
14,335 14,335 Retweets 50,141 50,141 likes
Trump’s tweet followed similar criticism he voiced in an interview on Fox News Sunday.

"It's out of control. And the people that are making these deals for the government, they should never be allowed to go to work for these companies. You know, they make a deal like that and two or three years later, you see them working for these companies that made the deal," the president-elect said.

After the Monday tweet, shares of Lockheed Martin Corp. dropped 2.7% in premarket trade.

The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II was chosen as a unified aircraft platform for the US Army, Navy, and Air Force under the Joint Strike Fighter program, but the vision for a multipurpose jet is still under development.

The program is notorious for delays and running far over its initial cost estimate. Moreover, engineers have yet to deal with software glitches and compatibility issues, while the actual performance of the pricey plane is subject to debate.

READ MORE: Pentagon prepares ‘misleading’ response to Senate’s F-35 concerns

Responding to the criticism, Lockheed Martin said it had invested heavily into pushing down the price of F-35s.

"Since the beginning, we have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to reduce the price of the airplane by about 70 percent since its original costing, and we project it to be about $85 million in the 2019 or 2020 time frame," said Jeff Babione, Lockheed Martin's F-35 program leader.

Babione was speaking in Israel, which has received the first batch of F-35s ordered by the country’s air force.

READ MORE: Trump tweet sends Boeing stock into tailspin

Trump already sent the stock price of one aviation giant into a tailspin by tweeting out criticism of Boeing for running over cost in developing the new Air Force One, which will be the plane of future presidents.


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2016 14:04

The GOI must take seriously theissue of LCA production and support it to the hilt.Pak with its inferior fighter,has however with Chinese help is building 16/yr,to be raised to 24.When you compare that with HAL's pathetic 6/yr.what gives? Pak now has 70 light fighters in service while we have ahem...zero! The quest for another (50 yr old) fighter which the US and its vested interests in India are trying to shove down the IAF's throat ,will also come sometime around 2020,going by the tarck record of decision making in the MOD and thrashing out the financial details,costs,etc. by the mandarins of babudom..In the meantime,the IAF's even more ancient MIG-21s and MIG-27s will keep falling out of the sky The sick joke is that if we go ahead and buy any of the two US hags,Pak may get from Russia cutting edge SU-35s.What a disaster that would be for India.We would also become the l;aughing stock of the planet!

http://thediplomat.com/2016/12/confirme ... hter-jets/.
Confirmed: Pakistan Air Force now Operates 70 JF-17 Fighter Jets
The new number was released by Pakistan’s National Assembly in early December.

By Franz-Stefan Gady
December 13, 2016

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) operates a total of 70 Pakistan Aeronautical Complex/Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (PAC/CAC) JF-17 Thunder fighter jets, the National Assembly Standing Committee on Defense Production revealed in Islamabad on December 7, according to local media reports.

The PAF now fields about an equal number of JF-17 and U.S.-made F-16 multirole fighter aircraft of all variants. (After U.S. lawmakers stalled financing for an additional eight F-16C/D Block-52 fighter aircraft, Pakistan is now mulling the purchase of eight used F-16s from the Royal Jordanian Air Force.)

The JF-17, first inducted into the PAF in 2011, is a lightweight, single-engine, multirole combat aircraft, powered by a Russian-designed-but-Chinese-built Klimov RD-93 (a RD-33 derivative) turbofan, capable of reaching a top speed of Mach 1.6. The aircraft allegedly has an operational range of around 1,200 kilometers (745 miles).

In total, the PAF plans to acquire 150 JF-17s over the next years divided into three production blocks: Block-I, Block II, and Block-III. So far, the PAF has only received Block-I and Block-II variants of the aircraft. 50 out of the 70 JF-17 in service are of the Block-I variant. The PAF last inducted 16 Block-II JF-17s in April.

As I noted elsewhere, according to the chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Pakistan achieved its goal of producing 16 JF-17 Thunder aircraft in 2015 and wants to produce a total number of 24 Block-II JF-17 aircraft by the end of 2016. Next to carrying a heavier weapons payload, Block-II variants feature a new air-to-air refueling probe, an enhanced oxygen system, and an improved electronic countermeasures system, among other things.

Pakistan produces 58 percent of the airframe and China 42 percent respectively. Islamabad has the capacity to assemble up to 25 JF-17s per year without Beijing’s technical assistance. However, as I noted in April 2015, according to Chinese and Pakistani media reports, China agreed to deliver 110 JF-17s to Pakistan in fly-away condition due to Pakistan’s still limited aircraft manufacturing capacity.

The JF-17 was originally developed to to replace the PAF’s aging fleet of Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets by 2o20. “Pakistan is looking to replace 190 aircraft—primarily Chengdu F-7 and Dassault Mirage III/5 fighter jets—by 2020 presumably with a mixture of F-16 and JF-17 aircraft. Pakistan, however, is also allegedly in talks with Russia over the purchase of Su-35 multi-role fighters,” I reported in April (See: “China and Pakistan Air Forces Launch Joint Training Exercise”).

China and Pakistan are also developing a combat-capable two-seat trainer variant of the JF-17, which likely will make its maiden flight in the coming weeks.


PS:If Pakistan can produce 16 fighters /yr raising it to 24,why can't HAL,far older than the Paki entity do likewise?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 13 Dec 2016 15:44

Philip wrote:Pak may get from Russia cutting edge SU-35s.What a disaster that would be for India.

The PAF inducting a 47 year old hag.. is a disaster for India. How does that work?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2016 18:24

The SU-35 a 47 yr old hag? Its first SU-35S flight was on Feb 19th 2008.The original SU-35 frist flew in 1988,that is 28 yrs ago. Even if your date was right,it would far outclass both Yanqui hags .The F-16 first flew in Jan 1974 ,14 years earlier and the F-18 in Nov 1978,a good decade earlier.So which birds are hags please?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 13 Dec 2016 19:00

That's some creativity there. F-18E/F is based on the original Hornet, while the Su-35 is based on the original Flanker. Both of these differ SIGNIFICANTLY from the original designs which both date back to the 1970s. One could use this amazing website to look into component commonality between the legacy Hornet and the Super Hornet, or that of the original Flanker vs the Super Flanker (Hint - there's little). What's next, pushing the MiG-35 as a 2000's design because MiG changed the designation from the 29 to the 35 while Boeing kept theirs and merely changed the C/D to E/F/G? Would the Super Hornet magically transform into a brand new design had the US Navy changed the designation to F-24?

Its first SU-35S flight was on Feb 19th 2008.The original SU-35 frist flew in 1988,that is 28 yrs ago.


How about pushing the Su-35 and MiG-35 as being more or equally as advanced than the F-22 because clearly the F-22 came out earlier and was based on a prototype that had its design freeze in the late 1980s much like your "original Su-35".. .
Last edited by brar_w on 13 Dec 2016 20:05, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby tushar_m » 13 Dec 2016 19:07

PAF don't have heavy fighter category & all their fighters will be for defensive role in case of war.

If PAF is thinking about su35/J11 they might be changing tactics to become an offensive force in a next few years (decades)

*sorry for wrong thread

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 13 Dec 2016 19:57

Philip wrote:The SU-35 a 47 yr old hag? Its first SU-35S flight was on Feb 19th 2008.

The Su-35 is an evolved Su-27. Just FYI.

The original SU-35 frist flew in 1988,that is 28 yrs ago.

The 'original' Su-35 was originally designated as the Su-27M.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2016 21:04

Philip saar's logic: Russia is selling Su-35s to Pakistan and China == India's fault.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ldev » 13 Dec 2016 22:04

Philip wrote:PS:If Pakistan can produce 16 fighters /yr raising it to 24,why can't HAL,far older than the Paki entity do likewise?


1. The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex where the JF-17 is assembled is owned 100% by the Pakistan Air Force i.e. an inhouse production and maintenance complex owned and controlled by the Pakistan Air Force. In contrast HAL is a fiefdom in itself, the MOD is a separate entity, ADA is something else. And none of these organizations work together. So the IAF has given up and wants imported fighters and frankly I do not blame them. All the IAF bashing seen here would be justified if they also owned HAL 100% and still wanted imported fighters.

2. All the critical components for the JF-17 originate in China, sole exception being the engine which comes from Russia. China's manufacturing base today is kind off comparable to the Soviet military industrial base during it's zenith. Just as HAL/India did not have any problems ramping up production of the Mig 21 in those days because of the tremendous industrial capacity of the Soviet Union, similarly the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex has no problems in receiving components for increasing JF-17 production.

The LCA is a completely different animal.....for obvious reasons and hence all the delays.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2016 22:50

Apart from the PAF, can you name another sizeable airforce which owns the production and design agencies?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 13 Dec 2016 22:55

Indranil Saar: Wrong question to ask. Despite the PAF owning the production and design agencies, what combat aircraft have they designed & developed from scratch? The JF-17 is a Chinese design, with Chinese parts and a Russian engine. For the PAF to claim design ownership of the JF-17 is laughable to say the least.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ldev » 14 Dec 2016 00:27

Indranil wrote:Apart from the PAF, can you name another sizeable airforce which owns the production and design agencies?


Why should there be a dogma as to whether an Air Force owns or does not own it's own production and design. I think we in India have been held hostage for far too long about copying structures, governance, etc. of other countries. For the PAF, the ownership structure works in that it has allowed them to essentially licence manufacture the JF-17 to produce a cheap workhorse. India should likewise develop it's own structures which are suitable for India.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2016 03:45

It is not about following dogmas. It is about whose business is what. IAF's business is to defend the nation, not run a business of manufacturing aircraft. Similar to how it should not be in the business of developing radars, missiles, trucks, guns, uniforms, rations and other thing that they use. It is the nation's job to provide them so.

Pakistan's defense organizations don't know their boundaries. They even feel the need to run the country. So let us be a little more wary of okaying that structure.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2016 12:08

Regardless of who owns and manages the entity,the fact is that Pak is able to produce 16+ (modest) light fighters/yr.,a cheap way to increase its numbersvis-a-vis the IAF's fleet strength,dangerously depleted and filled with 50 yr old legacy birds. Our equiv cheap ,sorry,cost-effective light fighter,far more capable it has to be acknowledged still hasn't made the production grade. This is why this td. exists! The only other fighters we are producing are MKIs (70% indigenisation) and upgrading M2Ks (not yet over at v.high cost) and MIG-29s (almost over at low cost).The MKI isn't the answer to replacing the 200+ legacy MIG-21s/27s,not to mention the 120+ MIG-21 Bisons which are being sparingly used so that they can last out until 2020!
A powerful Diwali banger must be lit up the backsides of all those connected with the LCA programme and also get the pvt. sector involved in supporting the project as much as possible. A second LCA line is an essential otherwise we'll be" back,not to the future but the past",with the absurdity of transferring either the F-16 (which Pak already has been operating for decades) or the F-18,both ancient Yanqui hags with "false teeth"!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 14 Dec 2016 12:42

>>PS:If Pakistan can produce 16 fighters /yr raising it to 24,why can't HAL,far older than the Paki entity do likewise?
>>still hasn't made the production grade.
1. HAL is not assembling kits.
2. IAF is not willing to accept a Thundar Bundar that PAF is happy to fly.
3. LCA is still not being supported by the THREE largest stakeholders - I will take flak for this, but IAF needs more, MoD is happy hunting, HAL is happy existing (LCA or not makes no difference).

PS: Philip saar, run down the program as much as you want - I expect better when you evaluate the aircraft. ASQRs are written on paper, and honestly, if the Tejas were to be deployed as point defence against Bundars or whatever you believe PRC will throw at us, WE will prevail!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rishi Verma » 14 Dec 2016 14:33

Indranil wrote:It is not about following dogmas. It is about whose business is what. IAF's business is to defend the nation, not run a business of manufacturing aircraft. Similar to how it should not be in the business of developing radars, missiles, trucks, guns, uniforms, rations and other thing that they use. It is the nation's job to provide them so.


Can't disagree that that's how IAF and DRDO/HAL think in terms of black and white territorial boundaries. But that's wrong.

IAF can and must provide requirements of performance, weight, manufacturability, servisability survivability based on machines they fly and machines they evaluated and no one knows this better than IAF.

DR&DO as the name suggests are happily persuing R&D without a thought given to design-for-manufacture which I know first hand. Given this, HAL can't do much and have no motivation to do much as far as annual rate of production.

Three entities are vectoring in their own directions instead of synergising in one forward direction.

LCA-Tejas is a capable and beautiful plane and it feels like a personal betrayal, after missing so many deadlines since the first flight, when it's not supported as a project of national importance and national pride

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2016 01:36

The Modernization of Indian Airpower: The Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Competition Reopens
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-modernization-of-indian-airpower-the-multi-role-combat-aircraft-competition-reopens/

Authoritative French sources told this writer recently in Paris that Dassault, with French Government support, was going to send a proposal to India for Rafale’s production under Make in India. No details were given but a source said “we are aware” of both the IAF and Navy requirements, pointing out that Rafale was designed from the beginning as a naval fighter and accordingly should be acceptable to both the forces. It may be noted that it is difficult to transition from an air force version to a heavier, and strengthened, naval version for a fighter, but easier in technology in the reverse.


If we buy a squadron or two of each (F-16, F-18, Eurofighter, Paper-NG) that would make everyone happy no? :mrgreen: The IAF has always operated a variety of combat aircraft. Adding more to the mix, should not make it any more difficult.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby svinayak » 17 Dec 2016 22:48

Rishi Verma wrote:
DR&DO as the name suggests are happily persuing R&D without a thought given to design-for-manufacture which I know first hand. Given this, HAL can't do much and have no motivation to do much as far as annual rate of production.

Three entities are vectoring in their own directions instead of synergising in one forward direction.

It takes decades for the DFM to be in sync with the mfg capabilities

I had posted before a

Airforce military commission has to be created
1. Airforce Operations
2. Airfoce tech and mfg
3. Engine research

No more interdepartment turf wars and only goals is to make in India everything

There is a leadership problem and it has to be fixed
A long term vision and roadmap has to be done for India in the aviation sector

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 19 Dec 2016 10:11

Saab pledges major investment if Gripen E wins IAF deal


Image

Saab has pledged to support the development in India of a "future-ready aerospace ecosystem" if its Gripen E multirole combat aircraft is selected to meet an Indian Air Force (IAF) requirement for single-engine fighters.

In comments to IHS Jane's on 13 December, Jan Widerström, Saab India Technologies' chairman and managing director, confirmed that Saab recently responded to the Indian government's request for information to support the procurement programme.

Saab is understood to be challenging for the contract against Lockheed Martin, which is offering the latest version of its F-16 Fighting Falcon. The deal is framed around a requirement for localised production and could be worth about USD12 billion as the IAF looks to procure up to 150 aircraft to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft.

Widerström said, "We formally responded to the Indian government in October, expressing our willingness to manufacture Gripen E in India, in line with the 'Make in India' vision. Our aim is to work closely with Indian industry to develop the world's most advanced fighter aircraft, and a complete future-ready aerospace ecosystem in India in the coming years."

Widerström explained that Saab's proposal includes the establishment in India of a modern facility that is fully capable of developing and producing advanced fighter aircraft.

"We have a blueprint for a comprehensive 'Make in India' programme for the Gripen E, which includes the setting up of a full manufacturing facility, at par with our Gripen E facility in Sweden," he said. "[It also includes] transfers of technology, the setting up of an aerospace ecosystem, the development of a local supplier base, and employment of a well-trained workforce."

Widerström added, "We're not looking at this as component production or the transfer of an old assembly line. We will build a full spectrum of capabilities in India.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Dec 2016 11:33

Yes, they will take Indian Tax payer money and invest it, while the same money is denied to LCA MK2- beautiful, every Lutyens agent can get commission and continue to live in thier 435 crore bungalows.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brvarsh » 19 Dec 2016 14:19

I do not understand if LCA MK2 development is stalled (?) because of lack of technology, lack of relevant human resources or lack of manufacturing? Failure of LCA today means India would not go the path of indigenousization for next 50 years. Make in India is good but it is good if it paves the way for creating a complete local (including IP) and competing product. Its pathetic that we can't even reverse engineer technology stalling LCA's future development. As Chinese have proved reverse engineering paves the way for a local manufacturing and design in future. This is the area where money has to be invested in.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby rkhanna » 20 Dec 2016 12:30

"Make in India is good but it is good if it paves the way for creating a complete local (including IP) and competing product"

Reverse engineering is not a function of ability but a function of Testicular Fortitude of showing the middle finger to international convention.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Kartik » 21 Dec 2016 01:34

Gripen E taxi testing


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Dec 2016 10:50

rkhanna wrote:"Make in India is good but it is good if it paves the way for creating a complete local (including IP) and competing product"

Reverse engineering is not a function of ability but a function of Testicular Fortitude of showing the middle finger to international convention.



Quite Frankly I have my doubts about this reverse Engineering thingie. For eg. Russia retires some SU-33 and immediately within a few weeks J-15 shows up. I don't think in high end engineering you get exact copies of the original. Its probably a lot of imports with local screwdrivergiri/ license manufacture which is getting passed of as Reverse Engineering for H&D purposes.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby yensoy » 21 Dec 2016 12:24

Aditya_V wrote:Quite Frankly I have my doubts about this reverse Engineering thingie. For eg. Russia retires some SU-33 and immediately within a few weeks J-15 shows up. I don't think in high end engineering you get exact copies of the original. Its probably a lot of imports with local screwdrivergiri/ license manufacture which is getting passed of as Reverse Engineering for H&D purposes.


En-mass poaching of the engineering teams will get you all the drawings you need. You need to think & act like a businessman and not be answerable to a hundred and one committees, RTI, trade unions and rajbhasha officer.


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