'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jan 2018 06:59

kit wrote:One would be inclined to say " Build the Tejas in more numbers " but it does seem to be a rather simple notion to a " bigger problem" .. Now is that a solution or a problem ? ..why does the IAF want another single engine fighter when the " Tejas can be made in much greater numbers" .Lets agree for argument sake the Tejas indeed can be made in bigger numbers in the time frame , say 200 in about 8 years. Would this rate of production negate the need for another SEF ? Does the IAF want an SEF solely " for filling up numbers ? " Is there a geopolitical angle to all this hullabaloo ? hard to say ., its also likely that the SEF will go the way of the MMRCA !!!

MII is meant to give jobs to the unemployed. But MII for Defence - and in the SEF case - will do little for unemployment for India. Waste of money Saar. A pure waste of money.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 28 Jan 2018 07:29

I have the answer to the CV problem.Like our Akula the Chakra with more to come, lease out one of the UK's new QE CVs (after all they need the moolah having to pay the EU a $50B divorce settlement!), which come with F-35Bs.Even if the US says "nope" to us using JSFs, we can use a variety of other birds in the STOBAR system with its ski-jump.The carrier can be leased to us by say around 2020, for 10 years until we have built our own CV perhaps even based upon the same design to save time but CATOBAR instead.Nothing ventured nothing gained.

The UK may seriously take it up as they're reall short on cash now and can't afford enough JSFs for 2 CVs.They would also get design royalties for much of the carrier design.For the IN huge savings in time and swift acquisition.Since we're both on the same side against the Chins, it may go through.

Back to the SEF and IAFs needs, the gen. consensus appears to be swift prod. of the LCA with extra lines, JAG upgrades even faster, and extras of aircraft in service which will keep both numbers and capability happy until 2025, by which time we should be wanting a/our stealth bird, either the FGFA or JSF after it has been proven in service.

A serious , suitably penned missive with the salient points of the matter concisely explained should be delivered to the DM from BRF.Any volunteers?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2018 08:09

They might get greedy like Ruskies and ask a lot.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 28 Jan 2018 09:15

Imports are not for number fillers but rather for acquiring small quantities of cutting edge “silver bullet” force multiplers, IMO. Any import should be G2G for obtaining latest platform available in limited quantities. Indian defense budget is insufficient for wholesale imports. Not possible to reach 42 squadrons with imported fighters.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jan 2018 09:17

+108 Saar! :)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 08 Feb 2018 19:19


ramana
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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2018 22:02

Sure.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 01:23

Battle for Make-in-India Defence
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/sunday ... 38362.html

So now the Amreekis want the MoD to change the rules.... :lol:

It is clear India imports at least 90% of its defence equipment. It is banking on foreign companies to bring in new technology. The lowest bid is one key selection factor that worries some of the competitors. “We’d like to see the Indian government work with the US government to ensure that these acquisition policies don’t disadvantage US firms just because we can’t get the lowest price,” Cara Abercrombie, former US deputy assistant secretary of defence for southeast Asia, told a panel in New York

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 09 Feb 2018 01:45

Very arrogant.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 09 Feb 2018 06:14

Tejas Mk 2 is the SEF

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 09 Feb 2018 07:16

ramana wrote:Very arrogant.

Not only that. They are going to make India sign all their "interoperability" agreements (aka intrusion agreement) if SEF is bought from them.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 09 Feb 2018 14:26

Khalsa wrote:Tejas Mk 2 is the SEF


Looks like there is a deliberate plan to kill the LCA MK2. Funds should have been released and design and prototype work should have been approaching the final stages by now.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 09 Feb 2018 14:31

ramana wrote:Very arrogant.


Everyone who thinks we should jump onto the amrikan bandwagon need to understand that uncle sam only has his interests in mind. The American attitude even towards their closest allies is very condescending. Not saying don't buy stuff from them. But only buy cutting edge stuff which you wont get anywhere else but on your terms. High time they realise that India is not Pakistan. But will our powers that be realise that? Sometime it seems they are willing to jump into uncle sam's embrace at the drop of a pin and willing to bend backwards as well as forwards :wink:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 20:46

Well said Will. Be careful, you might be accused of the mindset of a 1990s India ;)

The wise thing to do is to pick-and-choose what India feels is best for her needs. So buy support platforms (C-17, Chinook, C-130) and combat platforms (AH-64 Apache), but do it cautiously. Which is what the Govt is doing anyways.

srai's post about "silver bullets" is the best analogy to date. No need to import 100+ silver bullets. Waste of money, that the GoI does not have. Good one srai. +108 to you!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2018 21:55

Excellent news! SEF to be delayed well into 2019. As predicted by myself, srai and others. Music to my ears! Naval fighter contest to be delayed as well. Also with the "fake" Rafale controversy stirred up by RaGa, a G2G deal for the F-Solah in 2018 is off as well.

Indian Navy, Air Force fighter jet contests to heat up in 2019: Executives
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 854470.cms

Boeing Co and Saab AB, which are among those vying for a contract to supply 57 fighter jets for the Indian Navy, expect it may take until 2019 for the tender process to enter the next phase, according to company executives. The naval contract, as well as a less-advanced plan to buy 100 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force, represent multi-billion dollar opportunities for manufacturers and for Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" drive to build a domestic production base. But with the country due to hold a general election by next May, the expectation is both processes could take time. Boeing is proposing its F/A-18 Super Hornet and Saab has touted its Gripen M concept in
responses to a request for information (RFI) on the naval contract but they are waiting for a more formal request for proposal (RFP) to be issued.

Boeing Vice President Global Sales Defence, Space & Security Gene Cunningham said the Indian Navy and Ministry of Defence were evaluating the answers to the RFI to see if there were any changes to requirements or expectations before releasing the RFP. "We see that evolving over the next year or so, then driving to a competition," he told Reuters at the Singapore Airshow. An Indian Navy spokesman said work was in progress and he expected an RFP would be issued in the months ahead detailing specific requirements. Dassault Aviation SA has expressed interest in the navy tender with its twin-engine Rafale M fighter and Russian Aircraft Corporation has reportedly proposed the Indian Navy buy more MiG-29Ks. The firms did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

AIR FORCE FIGHTERS

The separate air force contract, expected to be for 100 single-engine fighters, has attracted Saab's Gripen E and Lockheed Martin Corp
with its F-16, but the contest has yet to reach the RFI stage. "Hopefully we get an RFI this year," Saab Head of Asia Pacific Dean Rosenfield said. "More than likely, 2019. But it really is dependent on the customer and what they do with the election there as well." Saab has partnered with Adani to build Gripens in India if it wins either or both of the fighter jet contests, while Lockheed has selected Tata Advanced Systems as its local production partner for the F-16. Lockheed Martin International Executive Vice President Rick Edwards said his company was hopeful an RFI on the air force contract would be released "soon" but it remained up to the government. An Indian Air Force spokesman declined to comment on when the RFI would be issued.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 10 Feb 2018 05:36

^^^
Admiral Saab,
The import mentality becomes more unrealistic by the day! Look, now India also wants to import 57 naval fighters ($12+ billion) on top of the 100 IAF SEF ($20+ billion). Then there is supposedly another 60 IAF TEF ($12+ billion) on the cards. That’s around $40+ billion total outflow (some % stays through offsets) of its FOREX (plus everyday operational costs of these planes). Where is the money?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2018 09:21

Repeat...
If the carriers are to be mended,
And skies to be defended,
Dump the fat vipers, too long to wait
Shed the shornet that has too much weight
Get the engine and build many a Tejas fine,
And we'll merrily buy a jsf faco line
:D
Last edited by Cain Marko on 10 Feb 2018 09:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2018 09:26

No moolah to send a few fishing trawlers to the Maldives, where will the money come from? IAF chief today warned about the crisis in the MIG-21 /27 fleet almost at its death, with sqds. retiring this year and making us unable to fight a two-front war.Perhaps the capability of the armed forces is so low that he cannot even sway that mosquito in the Maldives showing him the upturned finger.The Chin scribes jeering at India saying that we are biting off more than we can chew are perhaps right after all.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2018 09:31

Loan, Sir Philip, at friendship prices with little interest paid over 25 years.

The IAF wants more fighters, it also needs 5 gen fighters for the future. The Navy too needs 57 similar fighters. No point in risking a futuristic was with fighters from the past. Time to combine the orders and get a good deal.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 10 Feb 2018 14:33

Cain Marko wrote:Repeat...
If the carriers are to be mended,
And skies to be defended,
Dump the fat vipers, too long to wait
Shed the shornet that has too much weight
Get the engine and build many a Tejas fine,
And we'll merrily buy a jsf faco line
:D


Wahh bhai wahhh!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nvishal » 10 Feb 2018 15:12

It must be understood that each time we acquire a new hardware(s), something equal is going to be given to Pakistan by either china or the US as a form of counter-balance.

India's weapon modernisation/acquisition programs(all googly by design) take this into account. Even if we buy from Europe(many of whom are NATO members), their partnership with the US makes it difficult for them to sell things to us.

If we approach Israel for missiles - chances are very high that US will evetually talk to them in private and circumvent the deal. The same is true for France(also NATO member).

Acquiring them is very hard. The long pauses during this period is probably just us sensing the vendor. If ToT has been agreed at first and is refused at a later period, you can be sure that the Americans had a talk with them in private.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2018 19:55

srai wrote:^^^
Admiral Saab,
The import mentality becomes more unrealistic by the day! Look, now India also wants to import 57 naval fighters ($12+ billion) on top of the 100 IAF SEF ($20+ billion). Then there is supposedly another 60 IAF TEF ($12+ billion) on the cards. That’s around $40+ billion total outflow (some % stays through offsets) of its FOREX (plus everyday operational costs of these planes). Where is the money?

For all the talk from both parties on no expense will be spared for the defence forces - a fav line from Saint Antony - the reality is otherwise. There are just too many competing priorities for funding in the various ministries in the GoI. The Prime Minister’s MII for Defence - while well intentioned - was destined to fail as soon as the Babus got their hands on it.

The goal is to not allow the F-16 anywhere near the IAF. The Air Force itself does not want the plane. The MoD is doing a good job of that by delaying the RFP. Just a repeat order of 44 Rafales - which will ONLY happen post the May 2019 elections and if the Modi Govt wins - makes the best sense now. That fulfills the 126 requirement and also ends the single engine / twin engine tamasha - an excuse for OEMs to peddle their wares.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Bharadwaj » 14 Feb 2018 22:16

ayoooo :( :( :(

Apart from the geopolitical implications, having to sign CISMOA, etc, etc..we will seriously compromise our ability to pursue with the FGFA.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 246_1.html

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 14 Feb 2018 22:49

His version onlee. It is like as if he read BRF first and then wrote the above (and filled the rest in..."artistic" journalism).... :lol:

see here --> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&p=2250767#p2250767

The IAF cannot afford 126 F-35As. It will break the bank. Expect nothing more than 2 - 3 squadrons. And that too, if they successfully hammer a deal. And that is a big IF.

What the IAF wants and what the GOI can afford are two different things. The Rafale deal proved that.

Added L8r: Major contradiction in the above article. Let's see if you guys catch it :)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2018 00:28

Frustration among non-official, policy influencers in the United States is now setting in. Ashley Tellis - who last year wrote an article about how the F-16 and F-18 represent the *BEST* choices for the Indian Air Force - has now this to say. Read below. The message is loud and clear. You don't even need to read between the lines.

India Wants the World to Buy Its Weapons. They’re Not Very Good
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-exporter

While Prime Minister Narendra Modi has held steady against geopolitical rivals, including with China in a Himalayan face-off last year, his administration hasn’t fixed a broken defense procurement system in the world’s largest arms importer. That prevents it from equipping its own armed forces, let alone those in friendly nations.

"The structures that are dysfunctional, that have stopped the military from making SMART CHOICES, are still there," said Ashley Tellis, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who has advised U.S. ambassadors to India. "It’s NOT the way to run a military of a major power. It has to be among the WORST procurement processes of ANY major power."

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Bharadwaj » 15 Feb 2018 01:21

I was thinking SJHA is paranoid but everything he says is turning out to be true. Parrikar saw through the crap and I think so has Nirmala Seetharaman. If she stays on for one more year the future of Tejas, Arjun etc will be secure. Desperation indeed... The indent to HAL for the 83 birds seems to have driven these chaps into a fear psychosis.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2018 02:35

Bharadwaj Saar: Saurav Jha is among the *FEW* defence journalists in India who actually knows what he is talking about.

I agree with you on the article, but the author quoted Ashley Tellis. That is the only thing of value in that piece.

The desperation and psychosis is actually among BRF's import lobby. Truly hilarious to see their arguments. The chief architect is silent :)

For the policy makers and influencers in the US, it is a head scratching moment. They scratched their head on 27 April 2011 (technical down select of MMRCA competition) and they are still figuring out what is wrong. They just do not get it. Take a look at Dassault who played this cunningly well. They pulled the M2K out of the original MMRCA contest, because they knew who the customer is. Saab is now doing the same thing. The customer WAS, IS and ALWAYS will be the Indian Air Force. And Govts come and go, but Babudom stays forever. They forgot those two golden rules and this is the end result.

It is India's Babudom that is causing this issue. The irony is that this bureaucracy was inherited from the British. But yet, the Amreekis do not have the same issue with the British. For the past 7+ decades, post WW2, they have been used to dealing with poodle nations like the UK and much of Western Europe. In India, the situation is different. The Amreekis are getting blowback from India and the net result is confusion for them. They are so used to creating military alliances everywhere else (CENTO, SEATO, NATO, NORAD, etc) with relative ease, but yet in India it is not moving at the pace the Amreekis want. Everything goes through archaic levels of bureaucracy, designed only to keep the bureaucracy relevant. Read Raha Sir's interview in the Rafale thread. Process Driven vs Outcome Driven. Babudom is the former.

The bureaucracy is what is currently saving India from making a monumental blunder via the F-16 Block 70 or Gripen E.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2018 03:44

Rakesh, Deejay had predicted that US will offer the F35 sooner or later.

Looks like its sooner.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 15 Feb 2018 04:34

Rakesh wrote:Frustration among non-official, policy influencers in the United States is now setting in. Ashley Tellis - who last year wrote an article about how the F-16 and F-18 represent the *BEST* choices for the Indian Air Force - has now this to say. Read below. The message is loud and clear. You don't even need to read between the lines.

India Wants the World to Buy Its Weapons. They’re Not Very Good
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... s-exporter

While Prime Minister Narendra Modi has held steady against geopolitical rivals, including with China in a Himalayan face-off last year, his administration hasn’t fixed a broken defense procurement system in the world’s largest arms importer. That prevents it from equipping its own armed forces, let alone those in friendly nations.

"The structures that are dysfunctional, that have stopped the military from making SMART CHOICES, are still there," said Ashley Tellis, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace who has advised U.S. ambassadors to India. "It’s NOT the way to run a military of a major power. It has to be among the WORST procurement processes of ANY major power."


All the more reason to stop being the number one arms importer in the world for many years running! Nothing to be proud of.

As the saying “Loose lips sinks ship” goes, Indian officials need to stop deriding its indigenous efforts in public in order to obtain imported maal. Can’t complain about foreign perceptions of Indian products if the country’s Air Chief is calling them “three-legged Cheetah”.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2018 07:01

Defence sales at an all-time high with India: PACOM Commander
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 921682.cms

From none other than Admiral Harry B Harris...

"At the moment, India is considering a number of US systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India's large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India's multi-engine, carried-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike," Harris said.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2018 08:00

ramana wrote:They might get greedy like Ruskies and ask a lot.


They certainly will.

the bleddy buggers even now think that they "civilized" us and it's their english that has allowed us to progress.

Their drug addled populace is not of concern to us but the enduring hatred and jealousy of their deep state is coloring their view of India as well as the deep seated desire of an inferior civilization to visit harm and humiliation upon a superior one.

just look at how they reacted like scalded cats when we did not "choose" their eurofighter.

the old churchillian biases against India and the beastly Indians with their beastly religion is deeply institutionalized and enduring, covered as it is with a thin veneer of diplomacy, born of their desperate need for economic cooperation with India, brought about their thoroughly mismanaged brexit blunders, which have, in turn awakened the centuries old anti british feelings in europe.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nvishal » 15 Feb 2018 11:36

Bharadwaj wrote:ayoooo :( :( :(

Apart from the geopolitical implications, having to sign CISMOA, etc, etc..we will seriously compromise our ability to pursue with the FGFA.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 246_1.html

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL.

Never take ajai shukla's articles as official policy of the GoI

Ajai started working for the American defence sales lobby somewhere in the early 2010s. Most of his articles are "feeders". Many are sense proposals. He now works primarily as an influence peddler using his old contacts in the military.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2018 12:18

There is NO way that the GOI can fund with elections round the corner and the latest PNB shocker of a banking scam in today's media,more Rafales,plus an SEF AND LCAs! I'm nopt even venturing into FGFA airspace! As for the F-35,a wet dream to some,a nightmare to others and way,way away out of sight beyond the horizon,as its developmental programme hasn't been finished and will require heaps of operational time with various nations priviliged to get their birds first-as investors,before any are available for export.2025 might be a date when we can see some bought-out stealth fighter in IAF coulours,but not the AMCA expected only by 2030 f the green light is given now! Without any meaningful increase in the defence budget,there is no way that the crisis in the forces,especially the IAF and IN with regard to replacement of old aircraft,helos,and warships/subs,can be met.The IA too has to renew its entire AD system,with a layered defence of SAMs from QRSR SAMs,to AD gun/missile systems,and MR/LR SAMs too.Then the S-400s and ABM systems and missiles to come. We need a forest of "magic money trees" to fund the lot!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 15 Feb 2018 13:47

If there is any truth to this then I would like to announce the death of the F-16 and Gripen Factory as contenders for the SEF contest.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.co.nz/2018/02/capability-jump-iaf-looks-to-buy-fifth.html

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 15 Feb 2018 13:58

Rakesh wrote:The IAF cannot afford 126 F-35As. It will break the bank. Expect nothing more than 2 - 3 squadrons. And that too, if they successfully hammer a deal. And that is a big IF.

Well it also depends on the context and time-frame. What we're contemplating on the fighter front right now is -

- Tejas Mk1A: 4 squadrons
- Su-30MKI: 2 squadrons
- Rafale: 1-2 squadrons
- SEF: 6 squadrons
- Su-57: 6 squadrons

Plus a $6 bn upfront contribution to the PAK FA-reimbursement fund FGFA program.

Take the Su-57 out of the equation and the IAF's receipts register is clear post-2025 all the way to 2035 (when the AMCA may enter the picture). Maybe the Tejas Mk2 (though the prognosis for that program isn't good), but that's unlikely to be very expensive.

Over the short term (upto 2025) yes, not more than 2-3 squadrons of the F-35 are feasible.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2018 14:33

Looks more like carrot dangling not sure if the news is even if the news is reliable because MOD and IAF has not responded to it.

and stuff like

Sources close to the Pentagon say India would not be sold the F-35 as long as it is partnering Russia in the FGFA co-development project. That is because Washington would guard against the leakage of F-35 technology into the FGFA.


who are they tell us we will sell you F-35 only if you cancel FGFA , IAF can mix operate all the fighter type it wants

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 15 Feb 2018 14:42

its not about IAF operating mixed types but FGFA development in Russia benefiting from F-35 know how

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2018 14:57

How would FGFA development in India would benefit from F-35 in IAF ? These are seperate project unless they says that IAF is going to steal some technology and put it on to FGFA is that the insinuation from them ?

This looks like a blackmail either you cancel FGFA or we wont let you buy F-35 the rest is all sound bites

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 15 Feb 2018 17:07

Austin wrote:Looks more like carrot dangling not sure if the news is even if the news is reliable because MOD and IAF has not responded to it.

The source acc. to the article is not LM, its the IAF. LM would much rather shut down this F-35 talk, so that it doesn't affect the prospects of the F-16 in India (which is a much more lucrative deal for them). The same thing was also been reported by Saurabh Joshi of Stratpost last month -

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is considering the possibility of an order for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, according to sources in the Ministry of Defence. With deliberations at an early stage, it is understood the IAF will be writing to ask for more information on the fifth generation fighter. - Link

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2018 17:30

To believe in Ajai Shukla and his unnamed IAF sources is a Leap of Faith , All his recent write up is against the current Gobermant.


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