Pulwama Attack

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Feb 2019 07:52

Boycotting Chinese and Pak products has been my rant for years.Sadly there is no national movement for the same.The Swadeshi Jagran Manch ( SJM) tried to do something around the Doklam incident but there was no concerted effort barring a demo or two.No volunteers at malls handing out fliers, stickers , etc.I tell all my friends not to buy Chin products as there are no Paki products one sees but huge Chin wares.

The Chins are very cunning.There's an Austrian co. called Wellberg which makes non-stick pans, etc.Lettering all in German too.But if you look carefully for the manufacturer you find a tiny note on one corner of the box, " made in PRC"! I told a state minister I know some months ago that the fancy cell phone he was carrying, a Chin one was allowing the Chins to access all his sensitive data.He was shocked, knew v.little about Chin. snooping using its electronic products.

We have to put as much pressure upon the govt. to ban Chin goods.The SJM recently appealed to the govt. about the data threat from the Chins, but the campiagn must go from person to person.A national movement is required with leaders in every state/ city.There is also a huge smugglinv racket going on with Chin goods.I hope China again uses its veto.It may finally force the GOI to act against China .Thus far we take all the abuse and chicanery from China- stapled visas, vetoes, open mil. support for Pak, declaring Ar.Pradesh as S.Tibet, warning us from time to time on various subjects, etc., like a servile state with no backbone.It's nauseating.It has to change.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Feb 2019 08:00

What is Section 507, 204 of Indian Penal Code, and Section 66, IT Act?

This Banerjee lady has not only been suspended from her job as professor but charged with FIR under the above by polis.
Also now gone missing after receiving threats of rape and death.

"Offensive" comments are standard Paki fare, seems perfectly expectable from urban naxals. Stunning that this would bring all these reactions.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 20 Feb 2019 08:04

Philip wrote:Boycotting Chinese and Pak products has been my rant for years.Sadly there is no national movement for the same.The Swadeshi Jagran Manch ( SJM) tried to do something around the Doklam incident but there was no concerted effort barring a demo or two.No volunteers at malls handing out fliers, stickers , etc.I tell all my friends not to buy Chin products as there are no Paki products one sees but huge Chin wares.

The Chins are very cunning.There's an Austrian co. called Wellberg which makes non-stick pans, etc.Lettering all in German too.But if you look carefully for the manufacturer you find a tiny note on one corner of the box, " made in PRC"! I told a state minister I know some months ago that the fancy cell phone he was carrying, a Chin one was allowing the Chins to access all his sensitive data.He was shocked, knew v.little about Chin. snooping using its electronic products.

We have to put as much pressure upon the govt. to ban Chin goods.The SJM recently appealed to the govt. about the data threat from the Chins, but the campiagn must go from person to person.A national movement is required with leaders in every state/ city.There is also a huge smugglinv racket going on with Chin goods.I hope China again uses its veto.It may finally force the GOI to act against China .Thus far we take all the abuse and chicanery from China- stapled visas, vetoes, open mil. support for Pak, declaring Ar.Pradesh as S.Tibet, warning us from time to time on various subjects, etc., like a servile state with no backbone.It's nauseating.It has to change.

As far as Pakistan goes, there isnt much to boycott anyway. For China, I think the dominance of Chinese is such, that it will be difficult to have a complete boycott over night. It will be better if we focus on a few companies that are most closely related to the PLA. These are two specific companies: ZTE and Huawei. It will be best if we start something around these two.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 20 Feb 2019 08:20

https://twitter.com/billroggio/status/1 ... 9189557248:

In 2017, @angutowski & I created this simple map to highlight terrorist groups operating in Pakistan with permission of Pakistani establishment. When PM Imran Khan states that no terror groups operate from Pakistani soil, he is lying. And that is a fact, not opinion.Bill Roggio added,

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dzx9r9gXcAAV-I8.png

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Feb 2019 08:23

While I have to take some grim satisfaction at these ppl like Papri Banerjee getting kicked/slapped (figuratively speaking of course) for idiotic fB/social media posts, I also have to wonder where we are heading. If the Freedom 2 b an Idiot is taken away, where will that leave, say, ppl who aspire to political leadership, hain?
Professors and columnists are SUPPOSED to raise provocative questions, aren't they?

The legal basis is that FB posts can cause riots. But riots are because of rioters, hain? If someone specifically incites violence by asking ppl to take up weapons and go on a rampage it is one thing. But if someone says something, and some other idiot picks up a stone and throws it at a bus, the fault is entirely on the stone-thrower, not on whoever "made him mad".
I think it is time to revisit the "Don't yell 'Fire!' in a theatre" law.

Anyway, it sure seems like a New Day in India.

BTW, why can't someone do something (legally of course) to types such as Sagarika Ghose?

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 20 Feb 2019 08:25

sudeepj wrote: Boycotting Pakistani goods is actually hard, because they dont have that many to begin with except spices, towels, bed sheets and socks.

When I finally paid for a nationalistic media organization and discontinued the anti-nationals, it felt pretty amazing. Not to mention the peace of mind and reduction in blood pressure because I am not subject to their treachery any more. Members should immediately take action to discontinue NDTV and Arun Poories garbage.

And once again, vow to never buy Chinese goods.. This is much more difficult as a lot of stuff is being made in China these days. In this case, avoid the products that have large value additions done in China, such as Chinese brand mobile phones - Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, Xiaomi, One-Plus, ZTE and Huawei. Even if an iPhone is assembled in China, the amount of value add is pretty small there, as compared to the Chinese brands.

Sudeep ji,

Whole heartedly agree with everything you said. More than 20+ years back, when I was resident of massa land, I went shopping for T shirts. Found one particular piece I liked. Size, price, colour, brand etc except it was made in paki land; I refused to buy it. Never, ever bought anything made in that pig sty of a nation on our NW borders.

Earlier this month, when I chose the channels that I wish to pay for, I excluded NDTV to make sure that I don't pay 1 naya paisa to those bunch of anti-nationals. I felt amazing to have stuck a blow for Mother India. This will be recurring feature every time I renew my subscription. Every month

Two months back, I was looking for a 4G VOLTE enabled smart phone, 2 GB RAM, 16 GB ROM, Android Nougat/Oreo phone, budget of INR10K (including shipping, GST ityadi). I was very particular of NOT buying any Chinese brands (Vivo, Oppo, Xiaomi, Red Mi, One Plus etc). I was looking for branded phones like Nokia, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic etc. I do realize that these could be manafactured in China but what can I do about that? I ordered a Sony for INR7K. When it was delivered, I was surprised to see it was made in India, shipped from Hyderabad. It may have Chinese parts (like the circuit boards) but it was a Japanese brand, assembled in India. Sirji, my happiness knew no bounds

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Feb 2019 08:29

T shirts. Found one particular piece I liked. Size, price, colour, brand etc except it was made in paki land; I refused to buy it.

Been there, done worse. Got mail-order from JC Penney, opened package, found Made in Terroristan label. Returned the damn things, and told them :"Because they are made in Pakistan; I don't want to fund terrorists". No questions asked, money refunded.
Started policy in 1999, and have stuck with it, no exceptions known.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 20 Feb 2019 08:29

Sudip,

I have a low opinion of the competence of Pakistan’s rulers and believe that it is getting progressively ungovernable. Over the longer term it will disintegrate but until then it needs to be punished and dissuaded by imposing painful, lasting and visible costs.

Salami slicing is an option for a limited war to further these goals with focused and well defined military objectives that play to India’s strengths and minimize unintended consequences. Basically India should do only the minimum it needs to, and let Pakistan take care of its own destruction.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 20 Feb 2019 08:59

sadly, we have not used the 'water weapon' which could have been the cheapest way to screw napakis. we can still use it , if Modi ji comes back for another term and takes it up like never before. my cousin who is chief engrr at one of the big dams on chenab tells me in 6 year or so we can turn off the tap on Napakis. Sudeepj... i kind of agree with you but salami slicing is also important, it shows Napakis and the KM's that india is not easy meat and we are up for a fight. If you heard Imran yesterday, he was alluding that like USA is negotiating with Taliban/Pakis its time India to accept defeat and come to the table. That mindset needs to be corrected and so the salami slicing. we should be reclaiming what we consider rightfully ours.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 20 Feb 2019 09:00

sudeepj wrote:
Guddu wrote:
This is something we all can participate in. It's easy to boycott paki goods. There are easy alternatives, a little bit harder for Chinese goods as they are so common particularly in the west. Did not know that Shan masala was Paki origin.

Boycotting Pakistani goods is actually hard, because they dont have that many to begin with except spices, towels, bed sheets and socks.

There is not much Pak exports to us, but there is a lot we export - our cotton exports sustain their textile exports (over half their export). Beef is another big export item. Why can't we ban all exports to Pak?
Export incentives for our textile and basmati rice exports, need to increase by just 2-3% to put a lot of Pak exporters out of business - besides helping our farmers and the textile industry, which is in crisis.
Re: China - any state supporting terror against India, or acting against our national security interests, should lose MFN status. China is a prime candidate. Charge a additional import duty as a security tax on their imports. let that status be reviewed every year (as the US does).

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Feb 2019 09:13

manjgu wrote:sadly, we have not used the 'water weapon' which could have been the cheapest way to screw napakis. we can still use it , if Modi ji comes back for another term and takes it up like never before. my cousin who is chief engrr at one of the big dams on chenab tells me in 6 year or so we can turn off the tap on Napakis. Sudeepj... i kind of agree with you but salami slicing is also important, it shows Napakis and the KM's that india is not easy meat and we are up for a fight. If you heard Imran yesterday, he was alluding that like USA is negotiating with Taliban/Pakis its time India to accept defeat and come to the table. That mindset needs to be corrected and so the salami slicing. we should be reclaiming what we consider rightfully ours.

With water , we can influence political fortune/s in Sind. Direct supply of water to who so ever leave kick Pakjabistan behind.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 20 Feb 2019 09:22

Do we even have the capacity or the will(ingness) to leverage Indus waters?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Feb 2019 09:31

Great article on how to "go for the kill with Pakistan"! Some nice nuggets of information: I didn't know that

1) We plugged a water canal leak in Rajasthan, leading to a crop failure in Pakistan in 2017. They were stealing free water before this!

2) We are helping Afghanistan build the Shahtoot dam on the Kabul river & are doing feasibility studies to build 11 more!

https://www.businesstoday.in/opinion/co ... 19485.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Feb 2019 09:33

Pulwama Attack "Horrible", Says Trump, Urging India, Pak To "Get Along"

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/donald- ... -topscroll

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 20 Feb 2019 10:21

Along with boycotting paki products, how about GoI levying high taxes on Chinese goods? How about us boycotting Chinese products. Unless the product is absolutely necessary like ventilation system for Mumbai 3 metro (I mean can't we get it elsewhere). We need to bring down the trade deficit by $15-$20 billion dollars.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2019 10:36

UlanBatori wrote:What is Section 507, 204 of Indian Penal Code, and Section 66, IT Act?
This Banerjee lady has not only been suspended from her job as professor but charged with FIR under the above by polis.
Also now gone missing after receiving threats of rape and death.

"Offensive" comments are standard Paki fare, seems perfectly expectable from urban naxals. Stunning that this would bring all these reactions.

Section 507 of IPC is criminal intimidation by anonymous communication. E.g making on-line threats.
Section 204 of IPC is criminal destruction of evidence. E.g deleting the threat.
Section 66 is IT act is very famous.

What these people don't understand is at Pulwama, central reserve POLICE Force people were killed.
Will you get leniency?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2019 10:37

Karthik S wrote:Along with boycotting paki products, how about GoI levying high taxes on Chinese goods? How about us boycotting Chinese products. Unless the product is absolutely necessary like ventilation system for Mumbai 3 metro (I mean can't we get it elsewhere). We need to bring down the trade deficit by $15-$20 billion dollars.

First fight the known criminal and give a whooping.
Never open two front war without winning the first front.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2019 10:40

Austin wrote:Pulwama Attack "Horrible", Says Trump, Urging India, Pak To "Get Along"

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/donald- ... -topscroll

First Imran Khan went crying to UN
Next China wanted proof.
Now Trump is asking us to get along with killers.
Soon nuke flash point will come.
Waiting for Theresa May

Modi is killing them with his silence.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 20 Feb 2019 11:01

https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/pul ... 41819.html

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Feb 2019 11:20

ramana wrote:
Austin wrote:Pulwama Attack "Horrible", Says Trump, Urging India, Pak To "Get Along"

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/donald- ... -topscroll

First Imran Khan went crying to UN
Next China wanted proof.
Now Trump is asking us to get along with killers.
Soon nuke flash point will come.
Waiting for Theresa May

Modi is killing them with his silence.

Trump can't get his wording right even on issues inside US. The latest lawsuit against the emergency has his own words as one key argument against his emergency deceleration.

I agree with your last line.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2019 11:39

Meanwhile in a positive development, even Kejriwal is taking a swipe at Siddhu. Over his relationship with Imran.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 20 Feb 2019 11:41

One suggestion from my side regarding trade war. Now that India has rescinded MFN status from Pakistan and imposed 200% duties on their products, we should strive to make US and other western countries to do the same with respect to Pakis. They too have lost their soldiers and citizens to Paki perfidy in Afghanistan and elsewhere(including their homelands). To do this we have to mold public opinions in these countries. This is actually doable. Significant part of their govt apparatus is aware of paki treachery. All it requires is a push.

As far as military action is concerned l have full faith in our military and other domain experts in our govt. Lot of people especially those who are whiners are too much into second guessing and cross questioning every decision made by Namo and his team. I am unable to understand what is the point. Do they really think every action should be taken with their approval? It is plainly counterproductive.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 20 Feb 2019 13:49

Karan M wrote:

Here is one more bit. 11 years in the Army and retired as a captain? What gives?

Can any of our service veterans explain, what I am missing.

Raghu Raman was commissioned in 1986. Back then you got your commission as a 2nd Lt and the substantive ranks did not come by so quickly. Most Short service guys retired as Captains. Nothing wrong or missing here except that folks get promoted much faster now.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Feb 2019 14:12

Karan M wrote: Link or any references would be awesome.

I think it was in one of Nitin Gokahle's article. PM wanted air strikes, however IA(or other members) proposed SS. I will try to find it out.

GoI went with the expectation that there will be war. Pak would be responding to SS, so border areas of Punjab were evacuated after SS and IAF re-launched it war exercise. The evacuation is public news. There was no need for this, if Pak was expected to react only in LoC.

We did not expect Pak to hide SS, to prevent having to respond !

So GOI was ready for war in 16. Why would it be different this time? GoI found the chink is "nook threat" in 16 itself.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 20 Feb 2019 14:54

From the 12 years I spent on BRF, mostly as lurker and reader than a contributor, the major change I notice nowadays is that instead of incisive analysis based on news in the media and from past analysis done on BRF, we have more discussion and ranting centered around our pet wet dreams like sindhudesh, baluchistan liberation, use of pig fat and brahmos on pindi. I sometimes miss the old days when learned gurulog on BRF will provide you knowledge and hard facts based on reality. There.. I have posted a rant of my own.

Mean-e-while..
Pakistan warns that Afghan talks will be affected if India retaliates over Kashmir

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Feb 2019 16:23

pushkar.bhat wrote:Raghu Raman was commissioned in 1986. Back then you got your commission as a 2nd Lt and the substantive ranks did not come by so quickly. Most Short service guys retired as Captains. Nothing wrong or missing here except that folks get promoted much faster now.

Got it on rereading, its 2 LT to LT to Capt. 3 ranks in 11 years.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Feb 2019 16:24

nam wrote:
Karan M wrote: Link or any references would be awesome.
I think it was in one of Nitin Gokahle's article. PM wanted air strikes, however IA(or other members) proposed SS. I will try to find it out.

GoI went with the expectation that there will be war. Pak would be responding to SS, so border areas of Punjab were evacuated after SS and IAF re-launched it war exercise. The evacuation is public news. There was no need for this, if Pak was expected to react only in LoC.

We did not expect Pak to hide SS, to prevent having to respond !

So GOI was ready for war in 16. Why would it be different this time? GoI found the chink is "nook threat" in 16 itself.

Thank you, very useful and interesting.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Feb 2019 16:30

Dilbu wrote:From the 12 years I spent on BRF, mostly as lurker and reader than a contributor, the major change I notice nowadays is that instead of incisive analysis based on news in the media and from past analysis done on BRF, we have more discussion and ranting centered around our pet wet dreams like sindhudesh, baluchistan liberation, use of pig fat and brahmos on pindi. I sometimes miss the old days when learned gurulog on BRF will provide you knowledge and hard facts based on reality. There.. I have posted a rant of my own.

Mean-e-while..
Pakistan warns that Afghan talks will be affected if India retaliates over Kashmir

Dilbu to be fair, most learned log leave when their learning and analysis ends up in diddly squat happening, and things go on as ever before. Its not the forums issue inasmuch as it is the fact that nothing changes at the GOI level and GOI to public messaging is either poor (so we dont even know what is going on) or they dont care (UPA era, style). People trust their Govt when Govt has a long history of taking action, in India since that isnt there, we expect like children, to be constantly trickle fed info to reassure us about what's happening. We have more faith in this Govt, but old habits last a long time.

For instance, a decade back, someone would post a detailed analysis of how this Strike Corp would take out that region, face this division of the PA and the Orbat was this, that. Whats the result of that analysis? None. After the terror attack, nothing happens, dossiers get exchanged.

I am just so happy that in Modi sarkaar, the every other day terror attacks have stopped. Human loss apart, the tragedy apart, I used to dread reading the angst and anger in the BRF threads that would follow.

Next, if we keep the thread open long enough and people start bickering amongst themselves as we started seeing in this thread only.

Guy 1 rationalizes why GOI wont do anything
Guy 2 calls him as useless as GOI
Guy 3 says y'all are jokers
Guy 4 gets offended
Admins intervene. Admins get cursed out or Guys 1-3 develop a dislike towards the admin who interceded
Guy 5 posts a joke about how cowardly Indians are..
Guy 6 posts a statement reaffirming GOI needs to do something because IA, IAF, IN are weak
Guy 7 says so what..
Admins intercede
Guy 5, 7 post in feedback thread about good for nothing admin who went and was rude to him
You get the idea. This is ad infinitum.

Ramana just cracked the whip and got this thread back on track. I & some other admins were trying to nudge the discussion along without it becoming fratricidal.

We all can only do so much. If nothing happens within a week or two, we will have to lock this thread lest people use this thread to express their open frustration.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 20 Feb 2019 17:15

Women and children carried RDX over months across border, used in Pulwama terror attack https://zeenews.india.com/india/women-a ... 81918.html

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Feb 2019 17:29

Y I Patel wrote:The biggest reason I would favor the Kishenganga Valley as a target for salami slicing is that it is a relatively lower risk option.

However we would have to capture dominating heights around it, else we will be the same position as Paks now. Will be receiving Pak 155MM rounds for years in the valley.

We cannot capture only the valley.

I am against capturing populated areas, which will just add to our insurgency problems and will have more people who don't like us, on our side.

This is one of the prime reason, I am against capturing PoK. It will just move LoC towards Pak and would require creating new defensive line .. blood and resources.

What i want is freedom from "restraint". If PA targets our post, I want IAF LGB their HQ. If terrorist come through wooden areas on LoC. dropping cluster bombs.

We need to able to give dis-proportionate response. This is the way to deter PA.

There is no point capturing more areas and continuing "small arms fire" and "effective retaliation" crap.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 20 Feb 2019 17:30

India itself staged Pulwama attack: Fayyaz

LAHORE: Punjab Information and Culture Minister Fayyaz-ul-Hassan Chohan has said that India itself staged Pulwama attack and hurled allegations at Pakistan. Former Indian external affairs minister himself has admitted that all attacks in India are being carried out by BJP and its RSS extremists.

Former Indian external affairs minister himself has admitted that all attacks in India are being carried out by BJP and its RSS extremists. Now Modi, Indian premier cannot hoodwink the world community by dragging Pakistan in the heinous crime. Such allegations without tangible evidence should immediately be stopped,” the minister observed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2019 17:40

The farce from TSP is complete. It takes a special breed to be a spokesman of the army in TSP.

I have always been amused with the jokers the TSPA bis able to find.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Feb 2019 17:58

Dilbu things have changed for better India has had too many theorists and hyper analysts across the board , glittering academics , awesome degrees but zero action on ground . Chai wallah at the top has shown that to act one needs none . One certain RBI governor with fancy degrees is back to where he came from and passing sermons on GST and such when most of the loans to choksi and likes got disbursed when he was RBI head under Mouni baba. On Phulwama there is nothing much to be analysed actually basically "see ball hit ball" like Sehwag plays , if you like hyper analysis you can go to Indian habitat centre or even visit sites such as south asian studies headed by retired types who have been writing same stuff for decades but trust me all that is useless ; SS were conducted post Uri because someone had the spine to give an order the IA always had the competence. Even today all the expert talk on most of strategic topics be it nuclear deterrence , Kashmir or China is all hot gas and of zero value because there is nothing new which has happened to be added or talked about I mean for fck's sake it's just opinion man and only difference between your or mine versus some gasbag who writes for these journals is better presentation ; in this specific context I whole heartedly endorse and believe in “He who can does; he who cannot, teaches.”

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 20 Feb 2019 18:06

Pakistan warns that Afghan talks will be affected if India retaliates over Kashmir

Pakistan has played its trump card. Is this where we fold?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Feb 2019 18:12

Way baack in c. 2010, this Pakistani terror map was plotted

Terror Map

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Feb 2019 18:21

vishal wrote:Pakistan warns that Afghan talks will be affected if India retaliates over Kashmir

Pakistan has played its trump card. Is this where we fold?

What do you think?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Feb 2019 18:22

Dilbu wrote: pet wet dreams like ...baluchistan liberation

I am SHOCKED, Dilbullah! UBCN merely posts the Real (Conspiracy) News and Analysis. Balochistan liberation is on the cards. The only things getting wet are PA uniforms and Imran's pajamas.
Iran just put its armies where its mouth is, in Syria - for many years - and won. They don't kid.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Feb 2019 18:30

Baluchistan won't survive as a country. We would have to place a substantial amount of IA troops on the Baluch border with Pak Punjab to defend it.

And PA is past master at "freedom fighters" like adventure.

Bangladesh got away, because we in the middle. Literally.

Prashanth_R · Post by **Prashanth_R** » 20 Feb 2019 18:39

Call for Cricket Boycott is increasing day by day. Difficult time for ICC ahead, if India takes a stand and boycott World cup, Cricket world cup will be big failure without India. It will be really awkward for pakistan if ICC bans it from Worldcup(in worst case).

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 20 Feb 2019 18:40

Dear Ulanuddin Al Batori all of us indulge in those conspiracies. We would not be here on BRF if we did not enjoy or appreciate such things. BRF used to be ahead of the curve most of the time with our analysis and the next step from TSP was mostly predicted here before it happened. Looks like many of us have lost the heart and all we do is vent out the frustration instead of working towards solutions. Whether all of this leads to any change in the ground realities is another matter and I can fully sympathize with some gurus deciding to call it a day after the time and effort they dedicated to causes which went nowhere. But this is PeerAreEff and we don't quit. (Runs away before Ramanaji bans me for OT)