Pulwama Attack

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11003
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 23 Feb 2019 18:41

Karan M wrote:Thanks Sanju, that time differential thing is always the same and sometimes leads to BRF vanvas, hopefully we can mitigate that to some extent.
I just wished to point out that our services are capable of fighting hard and have been given certain capabilities.

For instance, if I see the IAFs radar & SAM network, it has almost been completely revitalized (orders wise) and significant amounts of equipment have already made their way to the IAF.

Speaking of Anujan. I hope he is doing well and is somewhere around, lurking I hope?

Great effort with lots of details for anyone genuinely interested.

I just had found one link which talked of $3 Billion emergency purchase but was short on all the critical details that you have dug up. I would have just tossed in that link but you wrote such a detailed post!

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 923
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby TKiran » 23 Feb 2019 19:18

nam wrote:My personal view is more than land grab or showing PA it's place, I want IAF retaliation to become the norm.

More than straightening Pak, I want this incident to straighten up GOI. The next time PA carries out BAT action, I want a Spice or SAW flying towards a PA target within 30-60 minutes, irrespective of the party in power.

I want the NDA gov to atleast bomb a empty tent. This will set a precedent for any future UPA gov, so that we don't have to watch in pain like the in-action for 26/11.

Pak is not going anywhere, nor will it learn any lesson. We can grab land anytime, as PA will give us lot of opportunity.

Future UPA govt. will split India into 20-30 nations with the help of China.

When he was vice-foreign minister, Wang Yi described India as “a tribal democracy whose long-term existence was far from a certainty.”

Many Chinese analysts maintain that “India as a nation never really existed in history,” and urge Beijing to remove an emerging security threat by initiating the balkanization of India into 20-30 independent states with the aid of friendly countries.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7610&p=2238572#p2238572

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6907
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 23 Feb 2019 19:50



on lighter note...comedy show in Pakistan 'world can't disown us cos we have taken money from every one'

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6907
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 23 Feb 2019 19:52

acc to Toi Scribe paramilitary being moved in JK for election

https://twitter.com/TarekFatah/status/1 ... 5269452800
Tarek Fatah suggests to burn terrorists rather than bury them...

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 727
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby krishna_krishna » 23 Feb 2019 19:55

TKiran wrote:Future UPA govt. will split India into 20-30 nations with the help of China.

When he was vice-foreign minister, Wang Yi described India as “a tribal democracy whose long-term existence was far from a certainty.”


How this is related to Pulwama ? , secondly is this your opinion or a source that states that UPA govt will Come to power in 2019 or 2024 ?

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3342
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Kashi » 23 Feb 2019 19:57

More like wishful thinking.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11272
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Feb 2019 19:59

https://www.news18.com/news/india/kashm ... 45979.html
Confirming the arrests, the Jama’at said, “During the intervening night of February 22-23, police and other forces raided many houses in the Valley wherein dozens of our central and district level terrorist traitor leaders were arrested.”
“Those detained include traitors Ameer Jama’at Dr Abdul Hamid Fayaz, Advocate Zahid Ali (Spokesperson), Ghulam Qadir Lone (Former Secretary General), Abdur Rouf (Ameer Zila Islamabad), Mudasir Ahmad (Ameer Tehsil Pahalgam), Abdul Salam (Dialgam), Bakhtawar Ahmad (Dialgam), Mohammad Amin Wani (Tral), Bilal Ahmad (Chadoora), Ghulam Mohammad Dar (Chak Sangran) and dozens more,” added the spokesman.

Poll Preparation or 35-A?

Police sources, however, played down the arrests, saying the arrests were necessary for elections to be held peacefully. A senior police official told News18 on the condition of anonymity that those arrested were held earlier too.
Officials privy to the developments said it was the first major crackdown on the organisation that is part of the Tehreek-e-Hurriyat, a separatist conglomerate. Jama’at is seen as the political wing of the Hizbul Mujahideen in the Valley and its cadres were picked up from across south Kashmir, including Anantnag, Pahalgham, Dialgam and Tral.
On Friday night, choppers were also reported to be hovering over Kashmir Valley. The sound of frequent flying of fighter jets till 1.30 am :?: added to the worries of the residents due to simmering Indo-Pak tension following the Pulwama suicide car bomb attack. However, IAF officials described it as a routine exercise.
The Jama’at, while condemning the action against its cadre, also referred to Article 35-A and said ‘something is hatching behind the curtains’ amid rumours that the government was bringing in an ordinance on the matter.


High time to scrap 35A, 370, bring uniform civil code and hang secessionist traitors. Enough is enough. Parallels to 1990 being cited; OK, this is not 1990. Go all the way, clear the Kashmir Valley of traitors.

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 923
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby TKiran » 23 Feb 2019 20:03

It was in response to nam's post. We need NDA back at any cost. Even the thought of UPA is frightening

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3897
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sanjaykumar » 23 Feb 2019 20:21

I am curious to learn of Wang Yo ji’s Opinion on China’s democracy.

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6907
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 23 Feb 2019 20:54

https://twitter.com/indiatvnews/status/ ... 1975662592

mufti: it is India which is isolated not Pakistan, how BJP formed govt with this lady!

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7425
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Feb 2019 21:20

To win Kashmir, reduce casualties, delete Arts 370, 35A

What most Indians do know but forget to link with terror is the fact of unconditional Chinese support to Pakistan for its own trade and larger economic interests. India is fast becoming an economic superpower, thereby turning a potential threat to China now enjoying so much of trading benefits due to its huge human population making labour exceptionally cheap. Thus, the Indian Government has to also look at the covert and mostly tacit support to Pakistan for disturbing activities across India so as to keep the latter away from international competition in trade and commerce.

Each action of Pakistan should be well documented and publicised before any retaliatory counteraction is taken. Consistent policy of talks with the Kashmiris and a stick for the Pakistanis would prove effective and productive in the long run. Containing China in Pakistan affairs and minimising civil casualties in Kashmir by sensitive planning of operations against the militants would yield fantastic results for the Indians.

Most importantly, the political will has to be truly strong to abrogate Articles 370 and 35A leading to mass entry of Hindus into the valley and ultimately balancing the Hindu-Muslim demographic mix, which will being down militancy and facilitate joyful annexation of POK with the Union of India.


IMO, Articles 370 and 35A were only relevant when J&K was acceded by Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947 when the state was undivided and not ethnically cleansed of its population. PoK is an entirely different ethnically after TSP occupied it and at the same time Chinese occupation in 1962 has made parts of J&K very different ethnically too - all Han Chinese as opposed to Kashmiri. Further, TSP has illegally acceded parts of J&K to the Chinese as well. There is no constitutional and legal sanctity of either articles of the Indian constitution after 1962 when it became clear that neither Pakistan or China would abide by the 1947 treaty. I am hoping and praying that on Monday the Supreme Court of India repeals Article 35A as it will open the door to repealing Article 370.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 879
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Guddu » 23 Feb 2019 21:29

IndraD wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/world/beyond-sports-boycott-here-are-indias-real-options-against-a-jihadi-pakistan
Beyond Sports Boycott, Here Are India’s Real Options Against A Jihadi Pakistan

The second way of addressing this asymmetry is to grow an unconventional force in Kashmir Valley that both collects information and assassinates jihadis. This cannot be a free-for-all, and we need to do what the US does with jihadi forces: have a judicial cell to vet the evidence and sanction such assassinations of anti-national and violent elements. Ultimately, unconventional warfare can only be defeated by unconventional defence-cum-offence capabilities in India. The CIA does precisely this, and the US President sanctions such legal assassinations based on a controversial 2001 law legislated after 9/11, the Authorisation to Use Military Force. President Barack Obama used this law to plan the assassination of Anwar Awlaki, an American citizen, who was advocating jihad against the US and its citizens, in Yemen.


Fantastic article, thanks for posting.

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Neshant » 23 Feb 2019 21:30

UlanBatori wrote:
Neshantji, sneering noted, thanks. Perhaps your generation needs this explained slowly and carefully. In our time there was no "capitalist economy" in India. India did NOT have enough food. Famine was a real danger every year.


You got it backwards. The more a group that can afford to purchase an item cuts back, the less incenve there is to produce. Keep that cycle going and what results IS famine.

Production is rarely the problem, profitable demand is.

India has always had capitalism. Its what ended famine.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 879
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Guddu » 23 Feb 2019 21:38

Sanju wrote:Karan,
That was very well written rebuttal. The amount of time time taken for you to rebut is many times more than for the initial poster to sling mud. In this difficult time, such posters should be asked to cool their heels for such mudslinging posts.

(S)He could have done the same research as you.

I always confuse the name with Anujan, whose posts I found informative.


Thank you for your expert comments..

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Neshant » 23 Feb 2019 21:40

Mort Walker wrote:IMO, Articles 370 and 35A were only relevant when J&K was acceded by Maharaja Hari Singh in 1947 when the state was undivided and not ethnically cleansed of its population. PoK is an entirely different ethnically after TSP occupied it and at the same time Chinese occupation in 1962 has made parts of J&K very different ethnically too - all Han Chinese as opposed to Kashmiri. Further, TSP has illegally acceded parts of J&K to the Chinese as well. There is no constitutional and legal sanctity of either articles of the Indian constitution after 1962 when it became clear that neither Pakistan or China would abide by the 1947 treaty. I am hoping and praying that on Monday the Supreme Court of India repeals Article 35A as it will open the door to repealing Article 370.


Bingo.

In any case, supreme national interest should always override all else regardless.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 879
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Guddu » 23 Feb 2019 22:24

Looks like one of the keys to the kingdom is to revoke Articles 370 and 35A. Modi govt should educate Indians on this. Once the public demands it, it becomes an election issue and there will be deliverance.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19113
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby chetak » 23 Feb 2019 22:34

IndraD wrote:https://twitter.com/indiatvnews/status/1099318461975662592

mufti: it is India which is isolated not Pakistan, how BJP formed govt with this lady!


ask why her sister who was kidnaped by terrorists is settled outside of cashmere, in south India, and why not in pukistan??

Mukesh.Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1001
Joined: 06 Dec 2009 14:09

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 23 Feb 2019 22:48

Guddu wrote:Looks like one of the keys to the kingdom is to revoke Articles 370 and 35A. Modi govt should educate Indians on this. Once the public demands it, it becomes an election issue and there will be deliverance.


+108
The battle is really about educating people and getting them to swing behind this.
However unfortunate this attack had not been in vain. I have seen liberals or federal people who were apathetic to the conversation start taking sides. First indignation and offstage. Slowly realization.
It's a long race. But at least the first stirrings are there

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 Feb 2019 23:00

sanjaykumar wrote:I am curious to learn of Wang Yo ji’s Opinion on China’s democracy.


Thought provoking topic, but China and Democracy - Oxymoron! Suppose was meant in same vein.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 Feb 2019 23:03



Do we really need nukes when Tamatar can make NaPakis do 'Tauba Tauba'. Please spare me this temporary loss of reason. :)

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11272
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 23 Feb 2019 23:06

Neshant wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Neshantji, sneering noted, thanks. Perhaps your generation needs this explained slowly and carefully. In our time there was no "capitalist economy" in India. India did NOT have enough food. Famine was a real danger every year.

You got it backwards. The more a group that can afford to purchase an item cuts back, the less incenve there is to produce. Keep that cycle going and what results IS famine.
Production is rarely the problem, profitable demand is.
India has always had capitalism. Its what ended famine.

:roll: In all my education I never had the benefit of such wisdom imparted to me.Where DOES one learn such? Oh, yess!! Prof. Mahrie Antoinette is said to have taught that Cake is higher value than Bread hence more capitalistically profitable. :roll:
However I think such top tier Economics gyan is probably OT and wasted in this thread so I would like to end this lesson.

SriKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1743
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 07:22
Location: sarvatra

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby SriKumar » 24 Feb 2019 00:15

Rishi_Tri wrote:[youtube]CJv3NJERTpY

Do we really need nukes when Tamatar can make NaPakis do 'Tauba Tauba'. Please spare me this temporary loss of reason. :)
Rishi_Tri...this is the funniest video I've seen in ages... REality is much funnier than fiction. "We want to let all Indians know....that Pakistan can very well live without tamatars... and Pakistan is an Atomic taakat, aur tauba tauba .....tamatar ka jawaab hum atomic bum se deenge... :lol: Rahul aur Modi ke muh pe tamaatar phekenge.... " Quite unbelievable really.

It reminds me on an article in Dawn newspaper ...by either Irfan Hussian or one of his corhots who wrote opinion piecies. About 10-12 years ago, the Baloch attacked and destroyed gas pipelines with the effect that Lahori (oe Karachi?) elites had to bath in cold water due to loss of gas for water heating. The author lost it ...and was ranting about in Dawn...that PA (or PAF) needing to hit them.....because he had to bathe in cold water.

O/T post above, so I'll add a few non-O/T lines here: I think the PM is right to bide his time for the counter attack. No one...not even Pakistanis doubt that there will be a counter attack, and this one will be massive compared to the surgical strikes. So they are in a state of high alert (probably ready for war) and the best thing for India to do is to let them be in this state of tension. It will wear them down and they'll let their guard down at some point. The only issue is whether they get tired of waiting and launch another one in a month. This is entirely possible, and if that happens, Modi will have to respond immediately. If he does not, there might be one more. (I did read Rudradev's analsysis about creating mayhem during elections to reduce legitimacy- still digesting it).
Last edited by SriKumar on 24 Feb 2019 00:26, edited 1 time in total.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6255
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby CRamS » 24 Feb 2019 00:25

I think we will not see any military action. Trump has prevailed upon ModiJi to go slow while at the same time asking his munna Taliban Khan to throw a few dog bones to India on terror. So Taliban Khan does some token BS like taking over Jaish compound etc. We have seen this script before.

Now you will have the usual cabal in India put more pressure on ModiJi to tone down. And of course, both India and TSP will declare victory. Equal equal galore. Watch for TSP 'guests' to now start appearing on Indian TV spewing this same line.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11003
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 00:32

Thank you CRamS saar for your incisive analysis based on the incisive analysis of rNDTV, WaPo, NYT, BBC, etc.

When are we getting the methai!

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17873
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 00:34

^^ And CRamS, you will of course watch each and every show which states this (Trump prevails over Modi), equal equal and update us. Sigh.

anjan
BRFite
Posts: 449
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby anjan » 24 Feb 2019 00:36

Karan M wrote:Many in the media, as is well known, loathe the current Govt. Taking anything at face value from them is unwise. Exactly per Occam's razor.


You go on to then quote half a dozen media reports. Anyway go read the report. Which has this to say in one part:

11 The Vice Chief of Army staff, in his oral deposition to the Committee, expressed
deep concern on non-allocation of projected Capital budget for Army for 2018-19:
‘A new defence procurement policy to streamline the procedures, delegation of
emergency procurement powers to Vice Chief of Army Staff as also delegation of
powers to purchase up to 10 (I) of ammunition, armaments, and spares are some
of the steps that have been taken. Besides this, a series of systems and
structural reforms in consultation with the Ministry of Defence has also
empowered us to fully utilise our allocation. However, the Budget of 2018-19 has
dashed our hopes and most of what has been achieved has actually received a
little set back. To highlight a few cases, the marginal increase in BE barely
accounts for the inflation and does not even cater for the taxes. Allocation of Rs.
21,338 Crore for modernisation is insufficient even to cater for committed
payment ofRs. 29,033 Crore for 125 on-going schemes, emergency
procurements, 10 (I) and other DGOF requirements.
.
.
.
The Ministry
of Defence has again delegated powers to the VCOAS to spend as much as Rs.
14,097 Crore towards security related issues. However, there is no separate
allocation for this. So, this money also to be found from the same Budget leaving
us with no choice but to re-prioritise either to reduce our requirement as far as
the security of military stations are concerned or to go slow on some other
acquisition.


Part- II Observations/Recommendations
In their Power-point presentation before the Committee, the representatives of
Navy also enunciated the impact of low allocations of Capital budget for Navy viz
constrained progress of New Schemes and ability to conclude contracts, delay in
induction of critical capabilities and attendant cost overruns, impact on progress of
infrastructure projects and mitigation of shortage of accommodation, and setback to
pace of modernization of Indian Navy.
7. The Committee are aghast to note this dismal scenario where the representatives
of the Services have themselves frankly explained the negative repercussions on our
Defence preparedness due to inadequate allocation in Capital head. Therefore, the
Committee fervently urge the Ministry of Defence to ensure that the allocations to the
Services be suitably enhanced at the Revised estimate stage so as to enable our
Services to meet the requirements of highest level of operational readiness. The
Committee, in wake of recent attacks on military stations and accommodations,
recommend that separate budget may be provided to the Services for ensuring security
of the military establishments


I should point out that I appreciate your effort to atleast document your pov.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11003
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 00:56

^^
Have we moved beyond "war wastage reserves" and "stock arms, ammunition, spares for a 10-day intensive war"?

Have you doubts on those previous issues cleared?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17873
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 01:14

Anjan,

Again, you miss the point. I quoted media reports DELIBERATELY to point out that you are COMPLETELY ignoring the reports which don't match your POV and second, I quoted reports which ONLY talk of technical aspects. Not salacious gossip about XYZ person being removed because he "exposed the Govt". And then I cross-checked those media reports by going back to those which directly quote the source, i.e. HAL's quote referencing serviceability & the CAS's comments as well. Third, I quoted Government reports about actual orders placed and issues resolved.

So, admit you were mistaken with grace, and move on. There is no "debate" here. Your conclusions were just flat out mistaken.

At this point, noting your jibe about quoting "media reports", whilst deliberately ignoring the difference between the kind you were referencing, and the ones I mentioned, their correlation with primary sources and the data they convey, and deliberately ignoring what the CAS himself said, I do have to wonder whether folks assessment of your motives are spot on. Are you really willing to accept information which contradicts your stated beliefs, or are you trying to push an agenda? You have so far pushed the agenda that this Govt is biased against soldiers, based on OROP, made extremely adverse remarks against a serving COAS, & now made this sort of commentary on preparedness whilst ignoring all evidence to the contrary including specific quotations by serving officials and organizations.

First, I already read the report which you quote and many other besides. I have been doing this for over a decade now!
You started with WWR. Now you are quoting modernization. That's a whole different ball game. We can get to that, but I really doubt whether I should make the effort given that you don't seem to be really interested in the topic but playing to a pre-set narrative. I hope I am mistaken.

There is also the fact- that I don't like to talk capabilities recently inducted. There is a good reason for that. These are capabilities that can provide the Indian Armed Forces the edge in any conflict & any effort from my side to collate all those items in one place, even if open source, has some obvious risks.

11 The Vice Chief of Army staff, in his oral deposition to the Committee, expressed
deep concern on non-allocation of projected Capital budget for Army for 2018-19:


In their Power-point presentation before the Committee, the representatives of
Navy also enunciated the impact of low allocations of Capital budget


First, Projected Budget. All Govt orgs project extremely ambitious budgets. They want to make up all deficiencies overnight. Initiate a thousand procurements, lock up a lot of funds for their specific branch. This is a game all Govt orgs play and it is rare that ANY economy, let alone a developing one will ever meet projected budgets for any period. The usual practice as inefficient as it may be, is to use emergency procurement where essential and maintain a certain level of capability. It cant be helped because we are, at the end of the day, a developing country and the overall military expenditure as a percentage of the overall budget is already huge. There is only so much "give" or buffer.

Next, Capital Budget. New capabilities. As mentioned before, the focus of the GOVT has been to get existing capabilities up to spec using emergency procurement (when allotted revenues are not sufficient for the year), devolving power to the VCAS level etc, not just keep buying fancy new gear! This is a very rational decision. Buying T-90s when the T-72 fleet would be languishing or a fleet of MMRCA when Su-30s were at 45 percent serviceability, would be the heights of irratonality, but that is precisely what was set to occur, previously.

Even here, there is ample evidence to note enough new gear has been coming into the services, not just at the overnight rate which the services want (e.g. 200 MMRCA stuck for years to be ordered ASAP + 5G program, New A/C carrier for the Navy, Arms & Munitions for an entire new division etc etc). The Govt is well within its rights to evaluate some of these "requests" and see what is necessary and what is not. Whether the Capital Budget requirement is essentially within budgetary/economic capability or whether the Nation can do with less expensive options!

As to all "hopes being dashed for new stuff, this that", its the prerogative of every service, or govt arm to push for AS MANY FUNDS as possible. Its also the imperative of the Govt to see what to prioritize on. Making existing equipment and kit serviceable, or just induct new items willy-nilly.

Please re-read what I wrote in Point 5 regarding WWR.

The Govt is using one-time grants to allow for these purchases[/b], whereas the DCAS, VCAS etc want this to be formalized via the Regular Budget. The Armed Forces want the budget to be increased to allow for all these purchases to be formalized.

The MOF et al obviously would prefer the 1-time Grant system because once the budget is increased, it sets a precedent and hence year on year it gets maintained at that level.

Second, what you don't appear to accept or understand is that historically, the [b]budget was notional because it would NOT be spent at all, and would lapse. This money would then be returned back to the MOF, and then spent in freebies and then again re-iterated every other year.[/b]

Third, so far the GOI has NOT defaulted on any of its weapons payments. Again, payments are broken into two groups. Upfront payment & those spread out over successive periods (linked to item delivery). The recurring payments are what the VCAS, DCAS wish to be formalized. Also, their planning and acquisition teams wants significant boosts for CAPITAL BUDGET above whereas GOI has justifiably focused on making sure existing equipment is also brought up to full readiness before running after new toys which will bankrupt both the existing logistics and lock up capital expenditure.

Fourth, lets have direct quotes below from key decision makers about how the IA is now spending its money.

Here is one more bit to summarize the stuff I dug up. Nitin Gokhale wrote a book on Modi's security policy, Siachen, 1965 and apart from having an inside perspective, and well connected, is usually a serious researcher as well.

What's interesting is the article corroborates exactly what I had dug up.

It reiterates what Modi sarkar is good at. Which is, a) delegation of responsibilities to technocrats empowered to take decisions (first Parrikar and Nirmala ma'am) b ) Take corrective action on war footing when they discover that some big issues remain.

No Govt is perfect, but this Govt's ability to take rapid decisions in the national interest with decisiveness bears remarking.

https://bharatshakti.in/dont-panic-the- ... projected/

Bharat Shakti
Don’t Panic, The Army Is Not As Badly Off As It Is Projected
March 26, 2018; By: Nitin A Gokhale;


For the first time since the Kargil conflict in 1999, the Indian Army’s ammunition stock, inventory of spares and maintenance of its existing crucial equipment is up to date, thanks to a combination of emergency procurement and revamped management system.

KM Post Kargil and in 2001 as well, there were huge purchases made for the services, hence the comparision[/i]

Although there are concerns about lower allotment for new acquisitions, the reality is far more reassuring, those who manage and maintain the readiness of the armed forces say. The MoD has already flagged the need for more funds in the coming years (and is hopeful of getting them as and when required) but it has also simultaneously began to ensure bang for every buck it spends.

For nearly 12-13 years after Kargil, the management of ammunition and spares in the three forces was tardy and below par, resulting in accumulated shortages. The reality began to bite in the immediate aftermath of the Uri attack and the surgical strikes in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK) in September 2016.

1.
That’s why in late 2016, the Army signed 19 major contracts worth Rs 11,000 crore to replenish about 10 different types of ammunition. Deliveries in three of the bigger contracts have been completed and 13 others would complete the supply progressively by end of the current calendar year, defence sources have revealed.

Similarly, the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy too bought ammunition and spares worth over Rs 10,000 crores to make up for years of neglect and indecision.


(KM: Ammo + Spares of Rs 21,000 crore already purchased post Uri)

2.

Additionally, over 75 contracts to buy and stock crucial spares for different equipment worth over Rs 15,000 crore (to be spent over the next four years) have been signed by the Army in 2017-18. These two measures alone have ensured that ammunition stock is up to date and almost 95 per cent of crucial equipment and platforms like Type A vehicles (armoured personnel carriers, army air defence platforms), all guns, UAVs and LORROS–Long-Range Reconnaissance and Observation System–and even general vehicles are on road that is they are serviced and ready for use whenever required. Earlier, at least 40 per cent of these platforms used to be ‘off-road.’

KM: Another tranche of ammo + spares for Rs 15000 crores at around Rs4000 crore/yr

3. Maintenance for ALH

Similarly, a decision to establish two MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) hubs for the Army’s fleet of Advance Light Helicopters (ALH) at Mamun and Missamari has ensured that at least 65 to 70 per cent of the fleet is now available to fly any time against just about 30 to 35 per cent before 2015 because the helicopters had to be sent to Bangalore or the maintenance staff had to travel the long distance to the bases spread across Northern and Eastern Commands.

4. Direct Quotes

Lt Gen Nimbhorkar, MGO
Image

This has been made possible, according to Lt Gen RR Nimborkar, the Army’s Master General Ordinance (MGO), because of improved coordination and synergy between the MoD and the Army’s decision-makers. The MGO – the man in-charge of ensuring all the in-service equipment held by the entire Indian Army is in top shape – speaking to BharatShakti.in pointed out that for the first time in years, the entire annual budget of over Rs 15,000 crores that his branch handles has been spent even before the financial year has ended. “Thanks to clear directions of the Army Chief Gen Bipin Rawat and quick decision-making by the current defence secretary Mr Sanjay Mitra and his team, we have managed to retrieve the dire situation that we faced for over a decade. This has been made possible because of optimum use of resources and simplification of procedures”, Lt Gen Nimborkar said.

He pointed out to decentralization of financial powers and emphasis on sourcing more equipment and stores from indigenous sources, thanks to the decision made by former defence minister Manohar Parrikar and continued to be supported by the incumbent minister Nirmala Sitharaman, has resulted in improved efficiency.


Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman (Image Courtesy: PTI)

5. Examples

For example, earlier even a simple decision to buy light utility vehicles for the Army had to go to the MoD which meant the entire process used to take a minimum of two years. Now thanks to decentralization, service HQs are able to procure them in six months!

Similarly, the decision to source ‘non-core’ items from the local suppliers rather them buying them through the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) as was done earlier, is resulting in massive saving. Over 80 items like berets, caps, socks, belts, sweaters, sports shoes etc. are now being directly bought from the market. Earlier, OFB used to source these items from the market and used to sell it to the forces at a higher price. For instance, the common combat uniform worn by all the troops was costing the organization four times the market cost! Today thanks to direct sourcing, best quality light rucksacks, knives, sports shoes, track suits and uniform, is being made available to the troops at a much lesser cost. The likely saving: Nearly 1200 crores a year!

Image Courtesy: Storypedia.com

Digitization of records and inventory has now allowed the top leadership, including the Army Chief, Vice Chief and the MGO, to have a 360 degree view of equipment availability, the MGO said. “This allows us to reduce dead inventory. There have been instances in the past when we had bought spares worth tens of thousands of crores of rupees and didn’t use them. In some cases, these spares were not even opened and have now become dead stock since the equipment they were meant for have been retired from service,” Lt Gen Nimborkar revealed.

Keeping these examples in view the current Army Chief has issued a directive to reduce unnecessary and excessive procurement. “We now follow a ‘just in time’ model of keeping spares which means only absolute minimum number of spares will be kept in stock,” the MGO revealed.


6. The catalyst

As mentioned earlier, the beginning of the turnaround dates back to end-September 2016. A thorough stock taking then revealed that some of the critical ammunition was down to less than a day’s stock and some others were dangerously low. For instance, Anti-tank ammunition called armour-piercing, fin-stabilised, discarding sabot (APFSDS) was completely out of stock, while ammunition for Smerch system and Konkurs missiles was down to two days of supply.

KM: The APFSDS saga has been chronicled on BRF by Rohit and I. Basically usual corruption sagas etc and other issues stopped the supply, Konkurs I believe is referring to the advanced variants (M) whereas Smerch, we didnt make the ammo locally and now OFB will make it in India (need to confirm, but I remember reading it)

So teams were dispatched to friendly countries with authorization to sign contracts on the spot. Simultaneously, all the three vice chiefs were authorized to ensure that all ammunition and spares needed to fight ten days of intense war is always kept in stock. Called the 10i (ten days of intense war fighting) scheme, the three vice chiefs have made sure between September 2016 and now, all the procurement have been done to meet that requirement. From here on, all measures to build on the long term plan to equip the military for a 30-day war, will continue apace.

While the utilization of revenue budget has been exemplary over the past three-four years, the military is still faced with huge shortfall in its funds for capital or new acquisitions, as highlighted by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence in its latest report. The government will have to find ways to augment the necessary budget if it wants to ensure that the military remains in top shape and ready for the twin challenges it faces from Pakistan and China.

​Nitin A Gokhale

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17873
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 01:51

Next is the claim that the Forces have not received "new equipment" under this Govt. That too, is completely mistaken when accepted without critical thought or context.

The Forces obviously want the lacunae of decades past to be made up. They want hundreds of billions of dollars of procurement. This includes the recapitalization of almost all branches of the Armed forces.

I leave it to the forum members common-sense to realize whether all that is feasible or even logical for the GOI to do, within 1 term whereas the rest of the economy is also crying out for funds, from Infrastructure, to healthcare, to social schemes etc. Forget about the "political economy" but think for a second whether a Govt running a deficit budget needs to just focus on one aspect. Does anyone remember what happened to the Soviet Union?

The Govt has signed overall contracts of all kinds worth Rs 2,47, 894 crore.
https://mod.gov.in/ebook-2018/mod-ebook.html#p=14

Having said that, without getting into the details here are some "procurements" for the AF which are already underway:

AF
1. Over 200 radars of various types, recapitalizing almost the entire IAF ADGES
2. Around 11 Squadrons, i.e. 22 batteries of 2 types of SAMS, whereas another 18 batteries of an advanced type have been committed for, and payments made.
3. Significant revamp of munitions and warfighting stocks of both conventional & precision guided types for the AF. For instance, dumb bombs deliveries have gone up by 150% from OFB. Why does this matter? Now correlate to the accuracy shown by IAF strike aircraft with dumb bombs thanks to new targeting aids.
4. New targeting aids of various kinds.
5. New communication aids.
6. Serviceability already mentioned.

Now, similar records exist for the IA, IN etc. Question is, whether we should even bother, at the current time to catalogue all this. I have my doubts.

Manish Jain
BRFite
Posts: 155
Joined: 02 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: India

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Manish Jain » 24 Feb 2019 02:01

Thanks Karan for some very informative posts.

Wish we had a save button for posts like these here. BRF needs an upgrade on software front.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7425
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mort Walker » 24 Feb 2019 03:12

Challenge to Article 35A: ‘Hearing appears unlikely till Tuesday'

Making Article 35A and 370 an election issue at this stage is risky considering that the Supreme Court of India is hearing about 35A soon. This has happened after a prolonged period of petitions going back at least a few years challenging constitutionality. If it appears to the court the matter is political, they may push the hearing back by a year. Let's see what happens in the court first.

It is strictly coincidental that the Pulwama Attack and elections have coincided with the hearing.

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6907
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 24 Feb 2019 03:58

thanks & +101 Karan M

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6907
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 24 Feb 2019 04:05

from Houston, NY, London to Berlin Indians hold protest for Pulwama attack: soft power rising!

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 042_1.html

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4840
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Neshant » 24 Feb 2019 07:52

Mort Walker wrote:Challenge to Article 35A: ‘Hearing appears unlikely till Tuesday'

Making Article 35A and 370 an election issue at this stage is risky considering that the Supreme Court of India is hearing about 35A soon.


One way or another, both have to go.

Its not a judicial decision, its a decision in the supreme national interest of the country.

Just about any legal gobblygoop can be buried on that basis with the exception of individual rights.

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1870
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby manjgu » 24 Feb 2019 08:15

gentlemen, on the issue of putting pressure on Napakis.. what if Bangladesh as part of Pakistan ( when IWT was signed) claims a share of water of Westerm rivers? is this something that India has explored ? how feasible is it?

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rishi_Tri » 24 Feb 2019 08:38

SriKumar wrote:
Rishi_Tri wrote:[youtube]CJv3NJERTpY

O/T post above, so I'll add a few non-O/T lines here: I think the PM is right to bide his time for the counter attack. No one...not even Pakistanis doubt that there will be a counter attack, and this one will be massive compared to the surgical strikes. So they are in a state of high alert (probably ready for war) and the best thing for India to do is to let them be in this state of tension. It will wear them down and they'll let their guard down at some point. The only issue is whether they get tired of waiting and launch another one in a month. This is entirely possible, and if that happens, Modi will have to respond immediately. If he does not, there might be one more. (I did read Rudradev's analsysis about creating mayhem during elections to reduce legitimacy- still digesting it).


Second strike by non state NaPaki actors has already taken place. I shall count the burning of 300 cars in Aero India parking lot as act of terrorism. Ms Sitharaman shall be in Bengaluru today. People know its just too unusual. No parking lot in Gurgaon, Delhi, Jaipur went up in flames in 47 degree heat with people smoking, cars packed like sardines, and 300 burnt in Aero India. Too much to digest.

Image

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11272
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 24 Feb 2019 08:41

manjgu wrote:gentlemen, on the issue of putting pressure on Napakis.. what if Bangladesh as part of Pakistan ( when IWT was signed) claims a share of water of Westerm rivers? is this something that India has explored ? how feasible is it?

Tell them to come and get it?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23306
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Austin » 24 Feb 2019 09:14

Dance video of Shaheed Major Vibhuti Shankar Dhaundiyal with his wife....

https://www.facebook.com/AdminPanther/v ... 482851336/

syam
BRFite
Posts: 453
Joined: 31 Jan 2017 00:13

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby syam » 24 Feb 2019 09:40

Pakis are really good at propaganda. They behave like Indians and mix with all of us quite well, and then push their narrative without the said Indians being aware of it.

I don't think any Indian is this anti to his own state. They are pakis masquerading as Indians. Isn't it against law? Same as some Russian/Chinese meddling with US elections.

Just be alert and don't get confused with pakis dissent as some genuine Indian dissent. SM is hardly our own cocoon. It's wide open to both your friends and enemies.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10690
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Feb 2019 09:46

Hmm, Why cant our artillery create some avalanches in POK with PA recording a good number of body bags. :(


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests