Pulwama Attack

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12896
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 20 Feb 2019 01:19

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... a-response
After ‘War of Words’, Let’s Call Pakistan’s Bluff & Take Action -- Syed Ata Hasnain
What is clear from the Indian perspective is that some action in response will have to be taken, the window for that has not receded. In fact hasty action in a short time window may itself be counterproductive. Whatever it chooses to do, the Indian Government has to do a serious risk analysis. This would involve weighing achievability against desirability, the question of the correct proportionality, international and regional impact, response from Pakistan and its absorption (including casualties within), and, very importantly, the effect on the election scene.
The lesson from the US experience is that asymmetric wars are best fought asymmetrically and not through conventional means. Does that limit India’s options of response? It does not because asymmetric response has far more dimensions than the conventional one. {BUT some payback has to be done to pacify public anger. Modi has set the expectation after Uri and he cannot back off now. The public and the opposition will not allow that AND It is the right thing to do. There must be a VISIBLE cost to bakis.}
....
India will have to in all probability weather the risk and call Pakistan’s bluff that has succeeded once too often in the past. The nature of response will need to be a calibrated one. How soon that can happen is anybody’s guess but time surely does not wait for decisions.

Arima
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Apr 2018 14:45

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Arima » 20 Feb 2019 01:57

IndraD wrote:
MAJOR EMBARRASSMENT FOR PAKISTAN AS FRANCE, US AND UK TO MOVE RESOLUTION IN UN SEEKING TO DESIGNATE MASOOD AZHAR AS A GLOBAL TERRORIST #REPUBLIC @republic

can China still veto?


assuming if China dont veto this move, what can India expect if Azhar is declared as terrorist.
Osama was caught from Pak, but world at large or US in particular never really punished Pak?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53860
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2019 02:02

Arima, There are two tracks Diplomatic and military.
Azhar being labelled as a terrorist is good.

Joe Fernandez
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 13:00

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Joe Fernandez » 20 Feb 2019 02:07

Pakistan is an artificial creation.

It's held by nothing but a hate India campaign driven by the intelligence services and armed forces to cover up their looting of the public treasury.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 924
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Guddu » 20 Feb 2019 02:20

sudeepj wrote:Thank you to the Mods for unlocking the thread and doing the thankless task of being mods. I am appalled to see the rants and absurd criticisms posted here by some of the members. Pakistani army is not a pushover, it is perhaps the only power in the world that has made the US army bleed and lived to tell the tale. Even the US is contemplating a surrender against the Taliban.. Sure, they were never as committed to the region any way, but this tells you that this is a major power that punches well above its weight.

It takes time to activate a national response to such outrages and as citizens, instead of castigating our leadership, or worse, the nation itself, you would do far better to change your own behavior even a little to ensure that national interest becomes first and foremost in Indian society.

Why not post what you have done here and how you will change your behavior in future? Ill start with my steps:

1. Paid up for the subscriptions of nationalist media houses that I like to read, that is Swarajya Magazine. Discontinued NyTimes subscription.
2. Donated my biweekly paycheck to BharatKeVeer.org.
3. Resolved to not buy any Chinese high tech product, that earns a lot of money for the Chinese corporations: Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, XioaMi. huawei will never see a single ruppee or dollar from me if I can help it.
4. I will also talk to my Indian grocery store, requesting them to discontinue selling any Pakistani branded items.

Some steps that you can take:
1. Discontinue any anti national media packages you may have subscribed to by mistake, such as NDTV.
2. Discontinue your patronage of anti national media stars such as Siddhu, unsusbcribe Sony channels, even if for one month. They will get your message.

Remember, an ounce of action is worth more than a tonne of outrage.

This is something we all can participate in. It's easy to boycott paki goods. There are easy alternatives, a little bit harder for Chinese goods as they are so common particularly in the west. Did not know that Shan masala was Paki origin.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2783
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby nam » 20 Feb 2019 02:24

India will have to in all probability weather the risk and call Pakistan’s bluff that has succeeded once too often in the past.


All our commentators who are asking risk to be gauged, are forgetting one basic fact.

When PM decided on SS in 2016, he expect war with Pakistan in return. He even asked for air strikes in response to Uri and was recommended SS by Paras.

GoI had in 2016 decided the risk of war is worth it.

So the decision to attack or not will NOT be based on the risk of war.

Amoghvarsha
BRFite
Posts: 245
Joined: 18 Aug 2016 12:56

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Amoghvarsha » 20 Feb 2019 02:38

ramana wrote:Arima, There are two tracks Diplomatic and military.
Azhar being labelled as a terrorist is good.


Saar heard Masood Azhar is in hospital with terminal.disease. what will this ban do?

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 617
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Raveen » 20 Feb 2019 02:39

Amoghvarsha wrote:
ramana wrote:Arima, There are two tracks Diplomatic and military.
Azhar being labelled as a terrorist is good.


Saar heard Masood Azhar is in hospital with terminal.disease. what will this ban do?



No more medicine :rotfl:

Joe Fernandez
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 10
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 13:00

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Joe Fernandez » 20 Feb 2019 02:42

Sindh, Baluchistan, FATA and NWFP will all break away from the gov't in Islamabad just as east Bengal broke away in 1971.

Pakistan was created to be an Islamic state.

It has failed in this mission.

Pakistan, like India, is about rule of law, the basis of the Constitution. India has an added strength. It's the world's largest functioning anarchy as a democracy.

The politicians in India live in fear of the Supreme Court of India and the people. So many of them have been locked up.

The Supreme Court of Pakistan is emulating the Supreme Court of India. It will never allow Islam to violate the rule of law, the basis of the Constitution.

General Zia ul Haq warned Pakistanis that they are going to get an Islamic state "whether they like it or not".

"If we are not going to be an Islamic state, we might as well return to India," he said.

Zia was blown up in the sky, by the CIA, along with the US Ambassador.

Bangladesh wants to return to India to solve the problem of Bangladeshi illegal immigrants in India. This is a hare-brained scheme.

Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Afghans, Iranians, and Myanmarese should be allowed to work in India without having to apply for work permits, but Indian citizenship is out of the question.

Voting rights come with citizenship.

They can also work in China, South Korea and Japan to make up for their failed states.

British India only covered a part of the Indian subcontinent.

Kashmir, Kerala and 500 princely states were not part of British India.

British India was basically Calcutta, Bombay, Karachi, Madras, Delhi and the hinterland of these cities.

India has existed for thousands of years as a geographical and cultural reality formed by the Sulaiman Mountains, the Hindu Kush, Himalayas, Arakan Yoma, Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and Indian Ocean.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1702
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sudeepj » 20 Feb 2019 03:06

Guddu wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Why not post what you have done here and how you will change your behavior in future? Ill start with my steps:

1. Paid up for the subscriptions of nationalist media houses that I like to read, that is Swarajya Magazine. Discontinued NyTimes subscription.
2. Donated my biweekly paycheck to BharatKeVeer.org.
3. Resolved to not buy any Chinese high tech product, that earns a lot of money for the Chinese corporations: Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, XioaMi. huawei will never see a single ruppee or dollar from me if I can help it.
4. I will also talk to my Indian grocery store, requesting them to discontinue selling any Pakistani branded items.

Some steps that you can take:
1. Discontinue any anti national media packages you may have subscribed to by mistake, such as NDTV.
2. Discontinue your patronage of anti national media stars such as Siddhu, unsusbcribe Sony channels, even if for one month. They will get your message.

Remember, an ounce of action is worth more than a tonne of outrage.


This is something we all can participate in. It's easy to boycott paki goods. There are easy alternatives, a little bit harder for Chinese goods as they are so common particularly in the west. Did not know that Shan masala was Paki origin.


Boycotting Pakistani goods is actually hard, because they dont have that many to begin with except spices, towels, bed sheets and socks. :-D

When I finally paid for a nationalistic media organization and discontinued the anti-nationals, it felt pretty amazing. Not to mention the peace of mind and reduction in blood pressure because I am not subject to their treachery any more. Members should immediately take action to discontinue NDTV and Arun Poories garbage.

And once again, vow to never buy Chinese goods.. This is much more difficult as a lot of stuff is being made in China these days. In this case, avoid the products that have large value additions done in China, such as Chinese brand mobile phones - Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, Xiaomi, One-Plus, ZTE and Huawei. Even if an iPhone is assembled in China, the amount of value add is pretty small there, as compared to the Chinese brands.

Primus
BRFite
Posts: 904
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Ground Zero

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Primus » 20 Feb 2019 03:15

Guddu wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Thank you to the Mods for unlocking the thread and doing the thankless task of being mods. I am appalled to see the rants and absurd criticisms posted here by some of the members. Pakistani army is not a pushover, it is perhaps the only power in the world that has made the US army bleed and lived to tell the tale. Even the US is contemplating a surrender against the Taliban.. Sure, they were never as committed to the region any way, but this tells you that this is a major power that punches well above its weight.

It takes time to activate a national response to such outrages and as citizens, instead of castigating our leadership, or worse, the nation itself, you would do far better to change your own behavior even a little to ensure that national interest becomes first and foremost in Indian society.

Why not post what you have done here and how you will change your behavior in future? Ill start with my steps:

1. Paid up for the subscriptions of nationalist media houses that I like to read, that is Swarajya Magazine. Discontinued NyTimes subscription.
2. Donated my biweekly paycheck to BharatKeVeer.org.
3. Resolved to not buy any Chinese high tech product, that earns a lot of money for the Chinese corporations: Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, XioaMi. huawei will never see a single ruppee or dollar from me if I can help it.
4. I will also talk to my Indian grocery store, requesting them to discontinue selling any Pakistani branded items.

Some steps that you can take:
1. Discontinue any anti national media packages you may have subscribed to by mistake, such as NDTV.
2. Discontinue your patronage of anti national media stars such as Siddhu, unsusbcribe Sony channels, even if for one month. They will get your message.

Remember, an ounce of action is worth more than a tonne of outrage.

This is something we all can participate in. It's easy to boycott paki goods. There are easy alternatives, a little bit harder for Chinese goods as they are so common particularly in the west. Did not know that Shan masala was Paki origin.


Great Post Sudeep Ji. Thank you for your suggestions, many of us are already doing this.

May I recommend adding India-aware.com, Cyber-Sipahi, Rajiv Malhotra, Ekal Vidyalaya to your list of organizations/websites that are doing stellar work, albeit some of these may not have an immediate bearing on the current crisis.

Even one hour of your salary may go a long way in helping someone or supporting the nation. Imagine if you will, each one of us Indians settled abroad donates one day's salary to the National coffers to fight this menace called Pakistan. How much do you think that will be?

The Indian diaspora is now powerful enough to make its voice heard around the world. We can bring our influence to bear on the local government wherever we are by economic and political pressure. Our academics can do the opposite of what they have been doing all these years - stop bashing India and start supporting it in articles, debates, TV appearances, book launches and so on.

Personally, we can do more on SM and within our own friends/family - an ever increasing part of this is now of Western origin - and we can begin to educate them about the evils of terrorism and sponsors of terrorism. One phrase I've been using since that fateful day on Sept 11, when a group of us sat in the lounge at our workplace and watched those towers come down - "All roads on the world map of terrorism lead to Pakistan". Most of those present did not believe me at the time, until the perpetrators were all caught hiding in the same sorry excuse for a country.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18825
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 03:20

nam wrote:
India will have to in all probability weather the risk and call Pakistan’s bluff that has succeeded once too often in the past.


All our commentators who are asking risk to be gauged, are forgetting one basic fact.

When PM decided on SS in 2016, he expect war with Pakistan in return. He even asked for air strikes in response to Uri and was recommended SS by Paras.

GoI had in 2016 decided the risk of war is worth it.

So the decision to attack or not will NOT be based on the risk of war.


Link or any references would be awesome.

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7074
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 20 Feb 2019 03:28

changed customs duty after India revokes MFN status to Pakistan hurting their trade already: dry dates which came from Pakistan worth 100s of crores lying strewn all over in transport depots & trucks with no takers in Pakistan https://twitter.com/DKR1977/status/1097868533399052288

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18825
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 03:30

pankajs wrote:Hah .. that explains!

Thanks. I did not know that.


I now have the references

1.


Link


In Intelligence Bureau report alleging “misconduct” by the former high-profile CEO of National Intelligence Grid (NATGRID) Raghu Raman was a key factor in the NDA government’s decision not to give him an extension beyond the end of his tenure on May 31.

Sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the IB’s adverse report alleged personal and professional misconduct by Raman involving foreign nationals.

This report, sources said, was presented to the UPA government, too, which ignored it and cleared his appointment co-terminus with the project in April this year.

Raman was appointed as CEO on December 1, 2009. He is a retired military officer who was working as CEO of Mahindra Defence Land System.

When asked about the IB’s allegations, Raman told The Indian Express: “I am not aware of the report.”

2. What NDA stopped. He had a 36 month contract extension @ 10L/ month. I leave it to you to judge what that means by Indian standards. And I have found no reason for anyone to be given such a contract in any other function??

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2012-08-23

Natgrid chief Raghu Raman's pay is 10 times that of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh

Natgrid chief Raghu Raman draws a monthly package of a staggering Rs 10 lakh, besides a host of entitlements.

The home ministry told Parliament on Wednesday that Raman, who was appointed the CEO of Natgrid on December 1, 2009, gets a monthly consolidated remuneration of Rs 10 lakh.

This level of salary is unheard of in the government. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh draws just Rs 1.6 lakh per month while top bureaucrats like cabinet secretary Ajit Seth gets Rs 90,000 and principal secretary to the PM Pulok Chatterji is paid Rs 1.08 lakh besides his pension amount of Rs 40,000.

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7074
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 20 Feb 2019 03:32

yes sir ...so far i was careless in buying food stuff from supermarket but now I make sure there is no Pakistani item, for example replaced many kg bag of Kohinoor rice for Tilda (Delhi based company)
similarly friends have made elaborate list of spices, drinks and other stuff.
Spreading around on whatsapp.
I already buy swarajmag with subscription, will donate to opIndia as well.

Unfortunately sky Asia pack (in Europe) has more than 30 Islamic channels (YES!!, every second channel on sky Asia is Islamic including Peace TV) & aajtak & ABP news for Hindi consumers ...no idea how to stop that cos wife watches Hindi soap operas like guddan tumse na ho payega ... :(( :((

Primus
BRFite
Posts: 904
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Ground Zero

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Primus » 20 Feb 2019 03:43

IndraD wrote:yes sir ...so far i was careless in buying food stuff from supermarket but now I make sure there is no Pakistani item, for example replaced many kg bag of Kohinoor rice for Tilda (Delhi based company)
similarly friends have made elaborate list of spices, drinks and other stuff.
Spreading around on whatsapp.
I already buy swarajmag with subscription, will donate to opIndia as well.

Unfortunately sky Asia pack (in Europe) has more than 30 Islamic channels (YES!!, every second channel on sky Asia is Islamic including Peace TV) & aajtak & ABP news for Hindi consumers ...no idea how to stop that cos wife watches Hindi soap operas like guddan tumse na ho payega ... :(( :((



We 'cut the cord' last year. Stopped Dish network. Now use a HD antenna on our roof, pass it through Tablo to time shift and pause live TV. For Desi programming, you can use Sling (not sure it is available in Europe), has a ton of Indian channels with many of them showing Bhakti, Bhajans etc even. For everything else there's Netflix and so many other channels on Roku.

IndraD
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7074
Joined: 26 Dec 2008 15:38
Location: भारत का निश्चेत गगन

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 20 Feb 2019 03:48

more update available..

Indian security forces took bullets to avoid civilian casualties in an operation which resulted in many deaths & injuries of Indian army soldiers and officers (and same civilians pelt stones on dead & wounded CRPF personnel)
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53860
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2019 03:56

Primus What I found was many US based desi hakims are very much jingos. And all active on at-least five WA groups. Quite well informed and never hesitate to talk with their pockets.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3511
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rudradev » 20 Feb 2019 04:01

Nationalistic Media Outlets

Swarajya http://www.swarajyamag.com
OpIndia http://www.opindia.com
My Ind Makers http://www.myind.net
My Nation http://www.mynation.com
Right Log http://www.rightlog.in
Postcard News http://www.postcard.news

I want to give a very prominent shout-out to INDIA AWARE https://www.india-aware.com/

This is an online news portal launched by BRF's very own Muns (he used to post quite a bit here, and has attended several of our NY-NJ Jirgas in the past).

Muns is a medical doctor and administers this portal in his spare time, bearing considerable operating expenses out of pocket. It's really, really good (and unique in its content).

Let's support Muns and India Aware with our eyeballs and clicks, as often as possible, if nothing else. I promise you it will be worth it.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1702
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sudeepj » 20 Feb 2019 04:15

Let a thousand portals bloom! :-)

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3511
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rudradev » 20 Feb 2019 04:26

ramana wrote:The attackers are Jaish-e- Mohammed(JeM) whihc is a TSP irreuglar army. yet GOI promptly withdrew secuirty for the Hurrirats.
It sends the required signals to the HBC. I don't like HCB.
HBC is more accurate Hillary Ben**D Clinton.
Now I get her trip to Mota Bhai big fat wedding was to tie up these loose ends.


Ramana, thanks.

On the question of HCB-- we can call it by whatever name-- but I think it would be reductionist (and a mistake) to attribute any of it to one individual, like Hillary Clinton. She definitely served its agenda but she was only one agent and she is now almost entirely out of the picture.

It is worth doing a trace-back from her to get an idea of what's really behind this. It's not merely "globalization" or "deep state". I believe it is a specific cabal that is administered largely out of Qatar (the holdout in the GCC) and ultimately masterminded from the UK. It operates much more quietly than the other axes trying to dominate West Asia, and in much more subtle ways. Its chosen proxies are the Qutbists (remember the Huma Abedin-Mohammed Morsi connection). It would also very, very much like to bring Pakistan into its fold.

Its facade is the Thani dynasty of Yemen... Clintons were to Thanis what Bushes (and now Trumps) are to the House of Saud.

But the Thanis themselves have neither the clout nor the agency to be the masterminds. Neither do the Clintons.

That, I believe, is Westminister's last hurrah. A thorough analysis of Qatar's investments in London financial markets would give a clearer picture. But there is no doubt that the centrepiece of Qatar's "soft power", Al Jazeera, is a British creation... many board members, operational directors, know-how experts and others who shape its editorial content are former-BBC, former-Guardian etc.

So to sum up, four different factions in West Asia:

1) MBS/MBZ (KSA and UAE). Trump and Israel are solidly with them for now. Increasingly, so is Al-Sisi's regime in Egypt. These are the "glowing orb" guys. Their main objectives are (a) tightly leash Wahhabist threats so that they are useful as tools but never threaten royal-house regimes (b) utterly crush the Muslim Brotherhood/Qutbists who are more politically sophisticated Islamists (c) contain or destroy Iran.

2) Iran, Syria, Lebanon (the Shi'as) with Shia-dominated Baghdad government, PMUs, and Hezbollah on their side. Russia and China have decided to back this horse as USA under Trump decided to back MBS/MBZ.

3) The Shadow Quadrant: The face of which is Qatar, but the background of which is deliberately kept obscure. Clintons were agents of this faction. They prefer soft power (propaganda, colour revolutions etc.) and financial maneuvering to kinetic force (for the time being). Their first overt grab at hard power was trying to install Mohammed Morsi (MB) as Egypt's leader following the "Arab Spring". They were the ones who aggravated the "Arab Spring" in the first place and instigated the Syria war (MBS/MBZ were at first aligned with the "remove Assad" agenda, but now seem to care less about Syria than about Iran directly and Yemen). Being a UK-led grouping they presumably put much more stock in the utility of Pakistan than Factions 1 or 2. They would like to "rehabilitate" Pakistan as a useful tool and supplier of Kinetic power (very much in line with British "Martial Race" theories and their Caroe-vian corollaries).

4) Turkey, the "swing state"... trying to maneuver a pole position for itself by aligning with different factions, but has maintained strategic independence and focuses on its core interests. Of all the 4 factions, Turkey is the most overtly pro-Pakistan (maybe because they want to bring Pakistan into their fold as the core of a new Istanbul-Islamabad axis). But that is a long shot.

Then there are various proxies/pawns: ISIS, Al-Nusra, Kurdish groups, Yemeni/Houthi groups, Horn of Africa groups, etc.

The question for now is will Pakistan be a Player, or will it be a Pawn? It is obviously in India's interest that it be a Pawn :mrgreen: because that way a lot of our work will get done by other greenies.

The Shadow Quadrant is of most concern to India because they are the most interventionist and least obvious in their moves. MBS/MBZ are relatively pro-India for now, and Iran may find itself leaning towards India as Pakistan allows itself to be used against them (and as US withdraws from Afghanistan). But the Shadow Quadrant is implacably anti-India, and has never resigned itself to the idea of Hindu self-determination, opposing Modi bitterly at every corner and from every angle (that's why I think the UK is ultimately the guiding hand behind it). Turkey is ultimately too preoccupied in its own backyard to be of any concern.
Last edited by Rudradev on 20 Feb 2019 04:38, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53860
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2019 04:34

I bolded and underlined the headings for clarity.
The Shadow Quadrant is interesting for Christian Michel the arms dealer was nabbed from UAE and Qatar region.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3646
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby saip » 20 Feb 2019 04:41

Pakistan's major exports to the USA are house linens (Comforters, sheet sets etc). They account for almost 5Billion USD. Next time when you buy sheet sets take a look at the country of origin and not the brand name (same brand can have goods from India, China or Pakistan). Most of these are sold by the usual US retail stores like JC Penney, Sears, Target, Bed Bath and Beyond etc.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1702
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sudeepj » 20 Feb 2019 04:59

@Rudradev, your post makes a lot of intuitive sense. Thank you! Its notable that the coverage from the BBC/Guardian/British in general, has been the most implacably hostile to India for the past several years now. Its only these guys who still refused to refer to the Pulwama attack as terrorism! Qatar, UK and the Qutubists need to be put in their place. Post Mursi, they have lost a lot of ground.. and I think they want to regain a footing in both Bangladesh and Pakistan.

We need to figure out a way to expose these guys.
Last edited by sudeepj on 20 Feb 2019 05:02, edited 1 time in total.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3571
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby kit » 20 Feb 2019 05:00

sudeepj wrote:
Guddu wrote:
This is something we all can participate in. It's easy to boycott paki goods. There are easy alternatives, a little bit harder for Chinese goods as they are so common particularly in the west. Did not know that Shan masala was Paki origin.


Boycotting Pakistani goods is actually hard, because they dont have that many to begin with except spices, towels, bed sheets and socks. :-D

When I finally paid for a nationalistic media organization and discontinued the anti-nationals, it felt pretty amazing. Not to mention the peace of mind and reduction in blood pressure because I am not subject to their treachery any more. Members should immediately take action to discontinue NDTV and Arun Poories garbage.

And once again, vow to never buy Chinese goods.. This is much more difficult as a lot of stuff is being made in China these days. In this case, avoid the products that have large value additions done in China, such as Chinese brand mobile phones - Lenovo, Vivo, Oppo, Xiaomi, One-Plus, ZTE and Huawei. Even if an iPhone is assembled in China, the amount of value add is pretty small there, as compared to the Chinese brands.


Would it be possible to have a separate thread for high value added Chinese items ; websites market sites aimed at Indian market paki or China pasand websites news channels and persons...this is the time for awareness ..

Rohit_K
BRFite
Posts: 565
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 22:53
Location: atop Sukkur Barage

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rohit_K » 20 Feb 2019 05:08

FWIW...

Saleem ‏ @memzarma
https://twitter.com/memzarma/status/1097782357023748099
Feb 19: It was an excellent speech from PM Imran Khan. However, this was Jaish-e-Mohammed rallying across Pakistan on 5th Feb. The organization claimed responsibility of Palwama attack.

Feb 5: Happening NOW
Good Taliban with banners of Al Jihad marching on Railway Road Bannu with slogans to liberate Kashmir from Indian occupation

Close-up pictures of JEM's Bannu KPK cadre: https://twitter.com/memzarma/status/1092683830480330752

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1180
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Nikhil T » 20 Feb 2019 05:15

Mods - I've read all 38 pages of this thread and I'm sorry to say I'm disappointed in BRF. Far from actionable suggestions, we are discussing petty politics, turning Kashmir into a prison camp and anti-Muslim bigotry.

(Side note: since when is this blatant religious bigotry allowed on BRF? We have several serving and former service Muslim personnel - one was amongst the 40+ killed in Pulwama. J&K SOG is almost all Muslim and is at the frontlines every day. Let's just stop this.)

That said, here's my order of preference of military actions we can take. Each step is higher on the escalation ladder and will only be used if there's a TSP retaliation after the prior step. The brackets indicate the casualties we can expect while executing the the operation itself (not retaliation).
1. Hit 2-3 battalion sized formations in PoK with IAF and Artillery strikes. Since this is in PoK, we can claim this is for our own security in the face of imminent threat emanating from them. [0 casualties]
2. Drop BrahMos on Muzzafarabad and Haji Pir terror bases [0 casualties]
3. Same as #1, but on IB [0 casualties]
4. Occupy 25-50 sq km in Sindh's Thar Desert area (since Kashmir is snowed in and Pakjab is too heavily defended with canals) [<50 casualties if we need to dislodge formations]
5. Occupy 25-50 sq km in South Punjab - Rahim Yar Khan area (which is Pakjab but not defended by canals) [50-250 casualties to dislodge nearby formations]
6. Naval blockade of Karachi and Mohd. Bin Qasim port [100-300 casualties if we lose a ship]
7. Full scale conventional war. [3-5K casualties]

There are lots of assumptions baked in here, but just wanted to share.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18825
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 05:22

Nikhil T, point out the instances of bigotry etc and we can take action, delete the posts etc. Otherwise, please dont engage in these shoot and scoot tactics of tarring and feathering the forum based on your POV.

That's as unacceptable as any bigotry etc in itself. You could have reported the specific posts, why didnt you do so? Blaming the admins is easy, kindly show some responsibility from your side as well.

Furthermore, using the J and K SOG as a proxy for the much larger section of the population that is radicalized is a logical fallacy. Same applies for the non JandK native martyred at Pulwama.

If you wish that BRF stop discussing the actions of political islamism, merely to assuage your sensibilities, that is unrealistic.

Gen Afsir Karim, who passed away recently, was the one who coined the term, the running dogs of jihad. Would you have accused him of anti Muslim sentiment too? Analysis requires calling a spade a spade and JEM et al are not Norwegian Buddhists but Islamists.

Next, your zero casualties list is doubtful, because obviously there will be retaliation and escalation.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3511
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rudradev » 20 Feb 2019 05:28

Thanks @sudeepj, I have been appreciating your insightful posts on the thread as well.

The Atlantic piece you posted on Sunni Islamist movements becoming "hyperlocalized" in focus was quite fascinating... it seems as if they've grasped the worldwide sense of economic disenfranchisement and consequent populism, and are now capitalizing on it by appropriating the old Maoist/Leninist discourse of "mass-struggle" as part and parcel of jihad. They are basically turning into the Khmer Rouge or Shining Path with a Quran. Unlike the "twin towers" type Global Jihad of elitist OBL, or the caliphate revanchism of Al-Baghdadi, they are focused on hyper-Islamizing the most remote parts of West Asia and Africa (and potentially Southeast Asia). These guys act more like Naxals... striking roots in forgotten villages with dysfunctional government services, where the natives have zero trust or affinity for the corrupt regimes and state structures that nominally rule them. Very much like the OG Taliban, in fact, making headway through the post-Najibullah chaos.

This has major advantages from their point-of-view... it flies completely under the radar of even the host governments (in distant capital cities) for a long time, and goes totally unnoticed in Western capitals, so there is much less chance of US taxpayers caring enough to send drones etc. after them. They can go about their work with quiet brutality and build the foundation of an Islamic state from the ground up, district by district. By the time the "international community" realizes what has happened, in huge tracts of Mali or Eritrea or Aceh, total Islamization will have become a fait accompli.

I am not sure if, or exactly how JeM and LeT have adopted these strategies. They are both very much Sarkari organizations. Having said that, LeT is definitely involving itself (via its parent, JuD) in filling the social-services vacuum in under-served, poverty-stricken regions of southern Pakjab. JeM seems to have decided its focus of terrorist operations is J&K, that too only certain districts in J&K for the time being... hence, it has become hyper-localized. Remember, they had all-India pretensions once (carried out the Parliament Attack). But now it's all about Cashmere. Which doesn't help them stay under the radar, of course... any attack by them has the chance of escalating into an India-Pakistan conflict, which nobody can ignore.

A key difference between the two: JeM, a Deobandi organization, was openly simpatico to the Taliban, and teetered on the verge of defying the Islamabad govt. during the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan days (its operatives were definitely getting killed in Afghanistan, and probably many more were recruited from Afghanistan as well through cross-pollination with various TTP factions). LeT on the other hand stayed clear of antagonizing the ISI/Army at all times during the US-Afghan war, and is philosophically (if one can use that word) moored in a different (Ahl-e-Hadith) flavour of fundamentalism. JeM has now been "rehabilitated" by the ISI, it appears, and the price of rehabilitation is to go all-in with the Kashmir jihad. LeT meanwhile is nursing ambitions of becoming an open contender in Pakistan's electoral politics.

There is probably some way in which the newfound Sunni Jihadi appetite for pseudo-Leninist anti-State-ism can be leveraged to make these yahoos turn on the Pak Army and ISI (and other institutions of the Pakistan establishment). Just as the TTP did at the height of the US-Afghan war.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18825
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 05:42

Nikhil T, sorry to say but I see nothing in Supratiks post as redolent of bigotry. He notes that JEMs agenda is the unfinished agenda of the Islamist invasion of the subcontinent. So? That's what they themselves proudly proclaim. You call this anti-muslim bigotry, so Indians and those of us on BRF should wear blinkers and not acknowledge, the fact that these terrorists seek inspiration from and seek to repeat the antics of murderous invaders who sought to commit genocide as a so called religious injunction?

Dr Kalam once said that he wanted India to be strong to protect itself from invasions. Would you accuse him of anti Muslim or anti British or anti Portugese bigotry as well?

Your accusation does not stand and I am closing the report. If you do come across real instances of bigotry , not merely any reference to political islamism being a threat to Indians , please let us know.

Nikhil T
BRFite
Posts: 1180
Joined: 09 Nov 2008 06:48
Location: RAW HQ, Lodhi Road

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Nikhil T » 20 Feb 2019 05:42

Karan M wrote:Nikhil T, point out the instances of bigotry etc and we can take action, delete the posts etc. Otherwise, please dont engage in these shoot and scoot tactics of tarring and feathering the forum based on your POV.

That's as unacceptable as any bigotry etc in itself. You could have reported the specific posts, why didnt you do so? Blaming the admins is easy, kindly show some responsibility from your side as well.

Furthermore, using the J and K SOG as a proxy for the much larger section of the population that is radicalized is a logical fallacy. Same applies for the non JandK native martyred at Pulwama.

If you wish that BRF stop discussing the actions of political islamism, merely to assuage your sensibilities, that is unrealistic.

Gen Afsir Karim, who passed away recently, was the one who coined the term, the running dogs of jihad. Would you have accused him of anti Muslim sentiment too? Analysis requires calling a spade a spade and JEM et al are not Norwegian Buddhists but Islamists.

Next, your zero casualties list is doubtful, because obviously there will be retaliation and escalation.


I've reported them, but not sure why we're waiting for folks to report posts that call for using pig fat on Muslims. I've NO issues with discussing political islamism (such as the post above this) or calling out Islamic Terrorism, it's when we propose ideas desecrating a religion that it becomes unworthy of a BRFite.

/My last post on this topic.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3196
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby fanne » 20 Feb 2019 05:49

I don't think people calling for P fat on terrorist is because they hate the religion, but because per the doctrine of the said religion, you become 'impure', unworthy of 72. If there motivation is to get 72, and if this act stops some from joining, why not?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18825
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 20 Feb 2019 05:52

Nikhil T, I am sorry but do you think that merely folks referencing murderous invaders being inspiration for terrorists, is akin to desecrating a religion? Because those incidents occurred, are a part of our history and continue to inspire certain despicable individuals. So I dont get why you reported Supratiks post in the first place, given you state you have no issues with political islamism being discussed as a threat.

The second post is about using pig fat on terrorists. Its debatable in that it's a useless tactic as all it will take is a new religious injunction, and the terrorists will ignore it. It's not as if the terrorists who slammed their aircraft into the WTC were worried about being cremated in jet fuel!

Kindly also read about how state forces are also evaluating such methods, again desparation more often than not.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.breaki ... 34009.html

If you are so concerned, I will delete this post but again its merely venting out of desparation, or thinking of non conventional methods to deter terrorists.

Also I dont even recall reading the post. Admins depend on you to report posts since we all have other things to do and cant ve expected to read and every post.

I would also request you to easy on the labeling or at least ask your fellow posters to explain their rationale if you disagree with it. 40 Indian soldiers have died, more thereafter, and last we need now is for more angry outbursts and back and forth. We just reopened the thread.

krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 804
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby krishna_krishna » 20 Feb 2019 06:43

Rdevji,

Few points on your earlier post :

"So what happened? The US made its pitch to Pakistan (along with KSA and UAE). Join our coalition against Iran, and you can have Afghanistan. Pakis of course wanted more… what about the Kore Issue? And the US (probably KSA and UAE too) told the Pakis: “no dice”. We are saving you from bankruptcy and giving you strategic depth on a platter, nothing more for you."

I do not not agree with this analysis, the reason being good sharif was before king's visit was present in porkiland for consultations with the chief exactly a week before. So there is clear support/ encouragement to target India in fact if you read the body language they were very happy and infact kind of rewarded porkis for their action. I can give benefit of doubt to atleast massa SD that they did not encourage this (Although a faction of HCB like you said would love to hurt India, especially with Afghan endgame and nearing Indian elections).

They (SA) wanted to do equal - equal and made a statement openly to mediate between porkis and us("de-escalation" was the exact word used). IF this is not crystal clear than what is I do not know, they at the last moment reluctantly agree to postpone a trip by a day. I would wished we would have postponed the visit seriously, one more data point kulbhsushan jadav was paraded in front of media when Iranian premier was on official visit to porkistan (again timing is not a co-incidence).

From MBS press conference : " We will make greater Middle East and Pakistan will be eastern guard of Greater Middle East"

One silver lining I see from all this is basically dragging Pak into the ME Shia/Sunni quagmire. That is actually brilliant news for us. Not only to create further sectarian divide, But also helped us to create an enemy in another Pak border.

Added Later : Just now fresh from POTUS : "I have watched. I have got a lot of reports on it. We will hcomment (on it) at an appropriate time. It would be wonderful if they (India and Pakistan) get along," trump said in response to a question.
Last edited by krishna_krishna on 20 Feb 2019 07:25, edited 3 times in total.

Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 597
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Y I Patel » 20 Feb 2019 06:47

The biggest reason I would favor the Kishenganga Valley as a target for salami slicing is that it is a relatively lower risk option compared to some other areas along the LoC. India occupies dominating heights along the eastern and southern banks of the river, and since the 90s has on several occasions shut this valley down with shelling. So how has Pakistan been able to hold on to it? Simple - India has never tried to take over the whole valley. The Indian army reached this area in the 47 Kashmir War to throw out the invaders and protect the Kashmir Valley from a northerly access route, and they stopped at the valley because it offered a natural boundary. They probably felt that occupying additional territory in this area had diminishing marginal utility, since the area was and continues to be highly inaccessible from India even after some serious post-Kargil and Kishenganga hydro project related infra buildup. IA did occupy and retain a dominating feature in this area in 1972 to further consolidate dominance. On the other hand, the BSF had advanced to Minimarg in the upper reaches of the Kishenganga valley in 1972 but withdrew unilaterally for fear of over extension.

That said, the strategic calculus is very different in this age of Pakistan sponsored terror. The LoC in the central and lower KG (Kishenganga in this post, not Krishna Godavari) valley is heavily forested and ease of access has made it one of the most active infiltration routes - the infamous Kala Roos and Hafruda forests are close to the LoC here. Old time BRF member LNS is on record as wanting to burn down these forests because of the number of IA fatalities they claim in anti-terror operations. A lot of Paki IITs are located in this KG valley, making it an undeniable candidate if India wants to attack across LoC in self-defense in order to close major routes of terrorist infiltration.

But more than any of that, it is the increased activism of the current Modi government that opens up the most important strategic consideration associated with this valley: Burzil Pass. And let's be clear that now we are extending our discussion significantly beyond it's relationship with KG valley. Burzil Pass is about 15 km or so to the north of Minimarg - the KG valley radiates out to the south and west from it, which is why we are talking about it right now.

But there are two other two valleys connecting to this pass that are arguably even more strategically important. One is the Shingo River valley that radiates to the north and east and joins the Indus River to the north of... Kargil. It enters Indian Ladakh near Kaksar... sound familiar? Saurabh Kalia. Enough said.

And the third valley radiating out is the Astore valley to the west and north west. This valley directly leads to Skardu. The interesting thing about this route to Skardu is that it is actually the shortest route to Skardu form the LoC. In fact, this is a historical route into Kashmir Valley and is called the Srinagar Skardu road.

So here's the punch line: Burzil Pass is actually not that far from LoC. A branch of the Kishenganga actually cuts across the LoC from Minimarg in a southwesterly direction, so locally there are no accessibility issues even in winter. If India were to retake Burzil Pass (and let's be clear, this is a much bigger operation and a different kettle of fish than my original KG idea) then (a) India can move south along KG valley and slice of that valley, (b) move NE and clear the entire Kargil region of Paki intrusions and gain an additional easy access route to Kargil from the Kashmir valley, and (c) get dominating access to Deosai plateau and the road to Skardu and Gilgit.

The great thing is, there are other such examples for pretty much every other sector of the LoC, and some are even more exciting. But let me stick to this one because it jumps out from merely looking at a map, and leave the others for imagination...

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23772
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby SSridhar » 20 Feb 2019 07:11

krishna_krishna wrote:From MBS press conference : " We will make greater Middle East and Pakistan will be eastern guard of Greater Middle East"

That's a throwback to Sir Olaf Caroe's days.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6742
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Amber G. » 20 Feb 2019 07:13

Capt.Amarinder Singh's Verified account
Dear @ImranKhanPTI you have Jaish chief Masood Azhar sitting in Bahawalpur & masterminding the attacks with ISI help. Go pick him up from there. If you can’t let us know, we’ll do it for you. BTW what has been done about the proofs of Mumbai’s 26/11 attack. Time to walk the talk.

Husain Haqqani's Verified account
Abdul from Pak wrote:The missing question by ppl of India is you blamed Pakistan in 5 mins on intelligence reports. Where was that intelligence when 350 kg of explosives were being purchased loaded in a car and that car hit the most secured convoy. How was that possible. Please ask this from ur govt.

Good question. Better question for ppl of Pakistan: why did Bahawalpur-based Jaish-e-Muhammad accept responsibility for the attack and issued a statement from Pakistan within minutes of the attack?

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6742
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Amber G. » 20 Feb 2019 07:25

Most insightful quote, trending is by a former Pakistani ambassador: (wrt IK's statement post Pulwama )
Imran Khan is a low level employee of ISI - Hussain Haqqani

Full quote
Imran Khan is a low level Pakistan govt employee who is simply there because the army wanted a 'face', he can't take any decisions.

Primus
BRFite
Posts: 904
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: Ground Zero

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Primus » 20 Feb 2019 07:34

Nikhil T wrote:
I've reported them, but not sure why we're waiting for folks to report posts that call for using pig fat on Muslims. I've NO issues with discussing political islamism (such as the post above this) or calling out Islamic Terrorism, it's when we propose ideas desecrating a religion that it becomes unworthy of a BRFite.

/My last post on this topic.


Nikhil Ji, I've been on BRF since it's inception in the 90s but don't post much except in the last few days for obvious reasons. In the beginning many of the stalwarts were banned for being candid about religion, I recall it was one of the taboos. Since then we have come a long way and I am glad, because Islamic Jihad is indeed an 800lb gorilla in the room that just cannot be ignored.

As for calling for burning the terrorist's bodies, perhaps with pig-fat, it is one of the few options left to a society that is the victim of terrorism in the name of religion, because one of the main motivators of suicide bombers is entry to Jannat that is virtually guaranteed to them. Granted they may die a fiery death in the process of the terror attack itself, but that may well be taken into account by the various fatwas issued by their own clergy, assuring a heavenly passage despite the lack of a burial. It is the terrorists like the ones killed yesterday in Pulwama that come under the category we are discussing. Their bodies are intact and it would be a simple process to burn them publicly denying them access to heaven. As per my reading of Islam, the ultimate goal of every muslim life is Jannat, this existence on earth is simply a temporary phase and therefore it would be potent deterrent if they knew in advance that their bodies would be defiled in a way that bars entry into paradise.

I don't know if this will work for as far as I am aware nobody has tried this before, not even Israel.

Finally, none of us here hate muslims. Just those that kill innocent people for an ideology. Just like I hated Sikhs who pulled out Hindus at random from a bus and killed them, simply because they were Hindus. Yes, I lived through that hellish period and traveled in those buses.

FWIW, on the Bharat Ke Veer website, there was just one muslim shaheed among all the martyrs listed. He was still at 6.5 lakhs despite having died before many of the others. I tried my best to make a donation in his name to his family but at the last step my credit card was rejected because it was non-Indian. Same with bank account. So I posted this appeal on my WA group of my classmates and urged the ones in India to donate in his name. Of course at this time all the martyrs have received their full amounts and the website does not accept donations in the name of individuals any more.

What could be a better message than a Hindu donating to the family of a deceased Muslim soldier who laid down his life while defending the country from his own people? What better way to say, your blood and your life are as precious as that of any Hindu, and to us your sacrifice means just as much. In my book a patriotic Muslim is a far better human being than a treacherous Brahmin.

I honestly believe most of us on BRF care about every Indian, from every faith and every region, as long as they care about Ma Bharati. That's all.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1702
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sudeepj » 20 Feb 2019 07:38

YI Patel ji, I personally am completely opposed to Salami slicing. When slicing off all of East Pakistan did not have a salutary effect on West Pakistani elite, how will slicing away a small part of Pakistan, that is not culturally, economically, or demographically important help us? Especially if it leaves those parts of Pakistani capability intact that are relevant to their Jihad on India, i.e. their nuclear capability, the capability of their Army to tax the Pakistani population for their war on India, the public acceptance of their role in Pakistani society?

The only effect that such salami slicing might have is to further increase their Armies hold on their society, I would not be surprised if every one the Pak Army remotely disliked was simply shot. It will mainstream Milli Muslim League like never before. Further, what is the guarantee that these newly occupied areas will not sustain greater or even similar levels of infiltration? Or low level conflict at that new border.. including sniping, IED, fire assaults etc.? At most, tweedledee will be replaced by tweedledum who will be 'corruption free' and moar Islamic than the last chap etc. etc.

Unless the plan is to get the PA into a life and death struggle for the Kishen Ganga valley and make it into a killing valley for the PA, how do you think this option will help India? In fact, it might be just a bum tickle for the Paki elite and will only strengthen their legitimacy and hold on Pakistani society.

If you attack a snake, dont hit its tail, at least aim to break a fang! Hitting the tail of the snake is only going to infuriate it and come at you even harder.

I will not speculate any more on what we need to do as I am sure Pakistani war planners follow this forum and I dont want them getting any ideas at all.

PS: Unless the salami slicing is just the first step in a conflict fought over a longer time frame.


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest