Pulwama Attack

Katare
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 24 Feb 2019 14:49

pankajs wrote:Simple you are focused on budgeting! Defense Budgeting was the biggest sham during the UPA era.

Katare wrote:Arun Jaitley has said clearly and repeatedly that he is allocating same percentage of federal budget to defense as previous governments. Even with that mediocre defense, he is being economical with truth because finance commission has increased the share of states in central tax pool, making federal portion smaller so in reality the govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA and lowest amount as percentage of gdp since Nehru’s time. These are uncontested hard facts.

Giving VC all the powers in the world to spend comes to nothing if he doesn’t have increased budget to use those powers. If large amount of ammunition was purchased without increasing the budget than some other projects/purchases/training would have to be starved of funds. It only amounts to robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Where this govt has excelled is in utilizing budget in more efficient and focused way and that has yielded hefty dividends as counted by Karan in his post.

Is it going to be enough? I hope and pray it is and we will find out soon.

Allocation/Budgeting means nothing if a large chuck is unspent and returned. Compare the spending. That is the ONLY real metrics.

Please look up the numbers.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Feb 2019 14:51

chetak wrote:
ramana wrote:Sure they can go. But geography will not permit that share.
Don't argue for argument sake.


maybe they will ask for financial compensation??

seems like the jehadi thing to do, in keeping with their age old tradition of receiving tributes, no??
more than any practical application is just to keep porkis off balance and engage them in battles while the real hammer comes from elsewhere. Perhaps Balochistan residents can also bring it to the notice of UN on the side effects of radiation due to paki nuclear testing

Katare
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 24 Feb 2019 15:02

Karan M wrote:
Katare wrote:Arun Jaitley has said clearly and repeatedly that he is allocating same percentage of federal budget to defense as previous governments. Even with that mediocre defense, he is being economical with truth because finance commission has increased the share of states in central tax pool, making federal portion smaller so in reality the govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA and lowest amount as percentage of gdp since Nehru’s time. These are uncontested hard facts.


Katare, you are missing the point. The emergency purchases made by NDA are already mentioned before!

They clearly show that "allocations for defense" being at the lowest etc are irrelevant, because these allocations are all notional! First, as a % of GDP sort of metric needs to be thrown in the dustbin IMHO. GDP is not money in the hand. Its a metric, a notional one at that and what actually counts is money available, after taking into account each dept's stated needs & trying to keep fiscal deficit, borrowings in control etc.

To recap.

1.Rs 25,000 crores of orders for ammo + spares have been made already, and a recurring stream of additional orders of ~6000 Crore thereafter are also in place. This addresses WWR.
2. Under the current Govt, the Revenue & Capital Budgets are being effectively utilized. By effective utilization, I mean we don't keep placing orders for gold plated gear while existing equipment is woefully un-serviceable.
3. While placing large orders for capex intensive gear without fixing existing problems, the optics come across as GOI appears to be taking nat sec seriously, in reality, all we do is accumulate white elephants.
4. Significant focus on Make in India and orders for local defence gear, for more bang for the buck (e.g. Akash MK1S, SRSAM, MPATGM etc - these are all programs originally headed for imports).

Giving VC all the powers in the world to spend comes to nothing if he doesn’t have increased budget to use those powers. If large amount of ammunition was purchased without increasing the budget than some other projects/purchases/training would have to be starved of funds. It only amounts to robbing Peter to pay Paul.


You have misunderstood the advantages of the VC driven process.

First, a large amount of money was spent on an emergency basis. This can include the VC's and also other MOD driven purchases. This allows the VC level folks to drive emergency procurement.

Second, the clearances to the VC also allow him to spend his huge existing budget without running to the MOD for clearance. Please reread the article above. Please dont mix up the defence budget allocation as being == to the budget being spent easily, in a timely fashion.

By giving the VC the power, the MGO can directly work with the VC to clear the requisite approvals and

A) Consume the entire existing budget allotted in a timely fashion (which is also why folks like Gen Nimbharkar are pleased) and
B ) Once that budget gets exhausted, the IA/IAF/IN and then the MOD have the chance to appeal to the MOF for a "supplementary grant" .
c) I won't be surprised as we speak, the process is ongoing for emergency purchases and we will see a increase in the figures presented to Parliament
d) There is a flip side to the VC driven/any sort of emergency procurement, that all this ad hoc procurement may mess up a lot of our purchases if not carefully monitored & we will have multiple lines of "emergency equipment" in our forces, hence the primary focus on giving clearance to the VC for ammo/spares and many other items (https://mod.gov.in/dod/sites/default/fi ... 051118.pdf). He can raise repeated orders so to speak.
e) By doing this GOI moved responsibility for its own upkeep back to the services, instead of them being dependent on a signature from some 10x bureaucrats in MOD (Batteries for submarines being a perfect example of the prior disastrous process)

Where this govt has excelled is in utilizing budget in more efficient and focused way and that has yielded hefty dividends as counted by Karan in his post.


The Govt also focused on improving the OFB/DPSU "yield" to get us more bang for the buck, rather than relying on expensive immediate imports. Another thing they have done is finally opened up ammunition manufacture to the private sector. This will (hopefully) break us out of the OFB delay/expensive import logjam but this will take time (2-3 years at the very minimum).


Karan,
I don’t want to drag this too long here but I think you are missint the forest for woods. VC himself is complaining that the enhanced power means little if additional budget is not given.



Rs25 k corer order signed is great but deliveries would happen over many years and munitions get consumed/expire each year. UPA bought munitions too spending same amount of money for the years and with 100% budget utilization.

Revenue budget expenditure (used for buying munitions and spare) has never been an issue, it was well utilized in the past also.

This government has done better in spending compared to UPA but it too have left a lot of money on table unspent.

Look at the numbers. I read through all the reports that were submitted to parliament last month. There is no getting around the uncomfortable truth.

Lets disagree and move on.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Lilo » 24 Feb 2019 15:07

Katare wrote:Army (Revenue+capital)
Year. Budget. Expenditure
2010-11. 74019.9 78,239.69
2011-12. 82,820.4. 84,081.29
2012-13. 96,564.83. 91,450.51
2013-14. 99,003.03. 99,464.21
2014-15. 118,377.62 114,559.95
2015-16. 1,30,658.33. 1,23,550.88
2016-17. 1,40,675.80. 1,45,364.04
2017-18. 1,45,167.22. 1,33,501.55
What is the context to this post being posted here in the Pulwama attack thread?

Below is the actual "defence expenditure" since the past 8 years.And the defence expenditure variation over the years in comparision to India's peer group given by various sources.India has tripled its economy since 2006 - it was 1 Trillion USD in 2006 , now its 3 Trillion USD in 2018.
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Katare wrote:.... the govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA and lowest amount as percentage of gdp since Nehru’s time. These are uncontested hard facts.

....

What unadulterated BS!
At which point has the govt allocated lower amounts for defence than the pathetic UPA?
And the facile claims on the defence GDP percent takes the cake - comparing it to your bandit nehru's times.The same Nehru who was claiming that India doesnt need an Army - and was doing traitorous acts like gifting off 80% share of Indus waters to Pakis - while "giving" India's teeming millions dying hunger deaths a measly 20%.
I wonder why no one assasinated bandit Nehru for his traitorous acts on Kashmir & IWT negotiated in 1960.Now we have to listen to this bullshit about "the golden Nehruji's times" when purportedly "Indian Army was well taken care off".

Katare,
We all can see through your mendacious FUD on defense expenditure trying to target this Pulwama thread for propaganda.

First you claim that "govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA" when each year the defence expenditure saw a healthy growth of around 8% compared to previous year.Then your claim of the defence as % of GDP....

I can already imagine that when India becomes 10 trillion economy in say 15 years you will again post same BS that compared to chacha nehru's time "the budget % is the least" in History carefully hiding the fact that as with any doubling/tripling economy the defence budget may show gradual decrease (unless there are war exigencies in the horizon) like it was 2.6% in 2006 and it may become 2.0% in 2035 ?

edit:
Pankaj ji these are the links
https://www.prsindia.org/parliamenttrac ... is-defence
https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/fil ... %20GDP.pdf
Last edited by Lilo on 24 Feb 2019 16:15, edited 11 times in total.

pankajs
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 15:44

Katare wrote:Army (Revenue+capital)
Year. Budget. Expenditure
2010-11. 74019.9 78,239.69
2011-12. 82,820.4. 84,081.29
2012-13. 96,564.83. 91,450.51
2013-14. 99,003.03. 99,464.21
2014-15. 118,377.62 114,559.95
2015-16. 1,30,658.33. 1,23,550.88
2016-17. 1,40,675.80. 1,45,364.04
2017-18. 1,45,167.22. 1,33,501.55

Reference to GOI's data would be most welcome. A creditable source will make my effort to dissect the number more worthwhile.

Added later: Lilo Saar's post clarifies the point that I was trying to research i.e Defense *expenditure* in absolute terms keeps trending higher and the expenditure as a % of GDP is in line with the average of the last 10 years.

SIPRI data is explicitly about expenditure or at least that is what they claim which in my opinion is the best measure. Till the expenditure metrics is reasonable Budgeting/Allocation/unspent return can be anything. Those numbers don't count.

Lilo Saar, always link the source. For the curious ...
https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/fil ... %20GDP.pdf
Page 11
Last edited by pankajs on 24 Feb 2019 16:15, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 16:04

Katare wrote:I don’t want to drag this too long here but I think you are missint the forest for woods. VC himself is complaining that the enhanced power means little if additional budget is not given.


No, he is saying that instead of the supplementary grant process he wants an increased budget allocation for the Army etc to be allocated. For obvious reasons, that's not going to happen. The MOF wants to retain the budgetary discretion rather than establish a new baseline.

The quotes given for the VC etc are from *the supplementary grants* meeting between the representatives of the services & the MOD. It is the entire job of the VC to push for more funds at that stage! It will never be enough but the MOD attempts to get a midway agreement.

But why not post what the GOI's response is?

It say that the MOD will take the service proposal for "Excess Grants for the year".
What is Excess Grants, it is the difference between Planned & Actual Expenditure. In short the MOD is making the point that emergency and critical purchases will be met.

Furthermore, to reduce the impact of pensions and pay on the Revenue Budget, the MOD has routinely moved and cleared at MOF, Supplementary Grants proposals.

Rs25 k corer order signed is great but deliveries would happen over many years


No, please read the article mentioned before, a huge chunk of these orders were for short term delivery.

I quote a specific article, Oct 27, 2016 India Today, Preparing for the Worst (India Today has moved to a paywall). This is for the first set of purchases.

So, in late September, the MoD sent out empowered committees comprising a senior bureaucrat, an armed forces representative and a member of the defence finance wing with wishlists. The committees went to ammunition suppliers in Russia and Israel with indents for buying several million dollars worth of ammunition. The wishlists include rockets and gun ammunition for Mi-35 helicopter gunships and Su-30 fighter jets, 155 mm ammunition for the Bofors howitzers, and 125 mm APFSDS ammunition for the tank fleet.

The urgency was evident in the indents-the MoD was willing to buy up existing stocks as well as off production lines. Factories were asked to identify time-frames of possible delivery, from 'immediate', within 'one month', 'two months' and 'three months'. Army officials confirmed that several contracts had been finalised and deliveries of ammunition had begun. The value of the contracts is estimated to be close to Rs 5,000 crore, just for ammunition. "The purchases are easily the largest fast-track procurements since Operation Parakram in 2001," says one official.


And similarly.
Through FTPs, senior army officials say, they plan to push up war stocks to cater to 10 days of intense war fighting, eventually building up to 14 days worth of stock. No one is talking war just yet. Not even in the currently tense security situation following the surgical strikes. Restocking, the military says, gives it the flexibility, endurance and confidence in logistics for its operational plans should a contingency arise. "It increases the number of options available to us," one general says. The army hopes to make good its shortfalls within the next three months.


Note, this is after the post URI/CAG stock-taking.

and munitions get consumed/expire each year.


Which are but a tiny fraction of the war holdings, and even for those causing any dip in WWR (say a set of huge exercises), i.e. the 10(I) purchase, the VCAS is mandated to make quick decisions to the order of Rs500 Crore, so they can be placed well in time and these can come from the yearly revenue budget!

Obviously the yearly amount to be replaced/added will be a fraction of the huge one time spend to make up the entire gap which had developed over decades of mismanagement (the APFSDS issue for instance)! And the IA has also been asked to ramp up on simulation aids to reduce expenditure on core equipment and assets. The big reason why several Indian players in the space spend so much effort to showcase their wares at Defexpo. Even 125mm APFSDS has training rounds available.

UPA bought munitions too spending same amount of money for the years and with 100% budget utilization. Revenue budget expenditure (used for buying munitions and spare) has never been an issue, it was well utilized in the past also.


Now who is missing the forest for the trees? Don't you see how messed up the "numbers" vs reality was?

Tell me something, if things were so hunky dory and great with the revenue expenditure and everything was always well spent in time on the right things, can UPA please inform us how the Su-30s, ALH, MiGs - were all running short of spares & serviceability was so low?

Fact: Revenue budget expenditure was a BIG MESS without proper accountability at the MOD level. Same for CAPEX budget in many procurements.

This is how Revenue Budget was spent to meet "100% utilization".

This is just for APFSDS. First, lets turn to our good friends at OFB.

Pending back-loading of the ammunition to the Ordnance Factory in a phased manner, the five Army Commands were holding 1,34,986 shells valued at Rs 607.43 crore under segregated conditions. In respect of 1,23,794 of these shells valued at Rs 557.06 crore, 40 per cent of the shelf life of 10 years had expired while the shelf life of another 11,192 shells valued at Rs 50.36 crore had already been halved.


Stop for a second. Around 1.5 Lakh APFSDS shells were made without even ensuring they were ok. Once the tests showed they were a danger, they were segregated.

This is from the post-Uri audit, below. Over a decade and a half, and things remained the same.

Shockingly, the CAG has found ammunition worth nearly Rs 17000 crore had to rejected by the army because of poor quality. These are "lying rejected at different depots due manufacturing defects," the CAG has said.


If you check the OFB production and acquisition, you will find similar stories for almost all critical stores.

This is the response of the current Government, apart from pressure on OFB to fix quality & increase production rate.
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 2017-06-11

Hectic moves within the defence ministry suggest the Modi government is working to end one of the government's last monopolies - ordnance factories.

In February, a letter went from the Prime Minister's Office to the secretary (defence production), asking for lists of ordnance factory board products, plant and machinery and, more significantly, the land held by each of the 41 factories operating under the MoD's department of defence production.
....
The letter was followed by a series of policy moves signalling that business as usual was coming to an end within the ordnance factories, long criticised by the armed forces for supplying substandard, overpriced equipment. In April, the MoD invited the private sector to participate in tenders to supply nine types of ammunition for tanks and howitzers, hitherto a preserve of the ordnance factories. On April 27, an MoD circular to the chairman of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) identified a list of 143 'non-core' items, ranging from uniform cloth and sleeping bags to military trucks, that the army could buy from the open market. The shape-up or ship-out approach was outlined in the circular: '...the MoD can identify non-core activities that can be either closed down or put on the PPP model for optimal use of the OFB's vast infrastructure and skilled manpower'.
........

In September last year, NSA Ajit Doval assessed the army's dissatisfaction with OFB products in a meeting with then army vice chief Lt Gen. Bipin Rawat. This led to the series of policy decisions this year that gradually whittled away at OFB monopolies.

The powerful trade unions, which control over 88,000 employees in these factories, are aghast at the move to bring in the private sector and have warned of an agitation culminating in an indefinite strike.
.......

Parrikar instead asked the factories to improve efficiency. "Let me see if I can paint another colour," he remarked to a 2015 media query on his plan for OFB 'white elephants'. Under Parrikar, the OFB boosted output from Rs 11,000 crore in 2014 to a record of over Rs 15,000 crore this year and cut its workforce from 96,317 to 87,707. He delegated financial powers to avoid delays in processing R&D projects at the OFB headquarters, gave factories a target to increase the expenditure on R&D activities to 3 per cent of their turnover by 2018-19.
.............
After Parrikar's departure from the MoD in March this year, the government has stepped on the gas.



https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... ture-ammo/

"The Indian industry was denied participation in the manufacture of ammunition, as no industrial license was issued for filling process. Thus the monopoly stayed with OFB, whose lack of capacity restricted the demand of the services, gradually leading to deficiencies over the years. It was not that the industry does not have the capability to manufacture with transfer of technology, but they have not taken any concrete action to acquire technology in this regard till now," a senior MoD official said.

Last week, a request of information (RFI) was issued for participation in a $400 million program to manufacture of variety of ammunition in the next five to eight years, including 20,000 units of 125mm ammunition for T-90 and T-72 tanks; 500,000 units of 23mm ammunition for Strella air defense systems; 300,000 units of 40mm ammunition for grenade launchers; 500,000 units of 40mm ammunition for multi-grenade launchers; 5,000 units of ammunition for Grad multi-barrel rocket launchers; 600,000 fuses for 155mm M-46 howitzers; 188,600 units of 30mm ammunition for the BMP armored vehicles; and 100,000 units of ammunition for 155mm FH77/B howitzers.


Pretty much a wide swathe of key IA programs is now available to the pvt sector.

This is not just for OFB. Almost all acquisitions had some glaring lacunae or the other. I am not going to go into the big ticket foreign munitions acquisitions for now. Let those sleeping dogs remain asleep, especially at the current juncture.

You are focusing on "more money". What I am pointing out is that just throwing money at either Revenue or Capital Expenditure did NOT produce the corresponding gains under UPA.

You have huge ORDERS for Su-30 MKI, ALH etc. Great for the CAPEX budget. Now why is it that the serviceability was so low? How many of these aircraft were even available for combat?

When the Su-30 serviceability was an eye-popping 45%, what was St. Antony doing approving the MMRCA process without first making the Su-30 serviceability rise to reasonable levels by asking the Services/HAL/OEM to fix the serviceability issues & then properly utilize the revenue budget to get 2-3 squadrons worth of aircraft on the flightline, without even purchasing new aircraft types altogether?

Now tell me, is this articulated by just looking at raw numbers?

In short, very little coordination between services & MOD, zero accountability from OFB et al, and all sorts of purchases made which did NOT result in practical improvement on the ground.

You have Gen Nimbharkar the MGO noting the huge improvement in actual conditions, and therein is the real difference.

This government has done better in spending compared to UPA but it too have left a lot of money on table unspent.
Look at the numbers. I read through all the reports that were submitted to parliament last month. There is no getting around the uncomfortable truth.
Lets disagree and move on.


Just looking at the top line numbers is unfortunately not enough. They needed to be correlated with actual improvement and capability on the ground!

In fact throwing good money after bad would be the hallmark of bad governance! Yes, you have read through the reports but kindly understand the context.

pankajs
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 16:11

^^
Last two comments are the key even when the Expenditure to GDP ratio is in line with 10 years average, leading to be better utilization of the money and consequent improvement in the military preparedness at the same cost to GDP.
Last edited by pankajs on 24 Feb 2019 16:33, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 16:32

^^ Exactly! At least you guys got the point I have been making through out. Its NOT about just making a big hue and cry about money, % of GDP, CAPEX budget or this or that.

Its about HOW the money is spent, whether someone at MOD is tracking that, and whether CORRECTIVE actions are taken once mistakes are discovered!!

This is where previous UPA Govt was a complete and total disaster. Just allocating money (and we can all guess where that money went), ZERO to ZILCH interest or coordination in terms of seeing the EFFECTIVENESS of spend, and NO corrective actions thereafter!

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Pratyush » 24 Feb 2019 16:35

When you are convinced that India will not react people start looking for reasons to avoid reaction.

Such as lack of preparedness. But no one looks at what conditions the enemy is in.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 16:43

This Gammandu is bery funny. Seems to be talking sense right now. How long before me makes a U-Turn.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/if-paki ... af-1998507
"If We Attack With 1 Nuke, India May Finish Us With 20": Pervez Musharraf
Abu Dhabi: Former Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf has said India could "finish us by attacking with 20 (nuclear) bombs" if Pakistan launched even a single nuclear attack on the neighbouring country, according to Karachi-based newspaper Dawn.

Addressing a press conference in the UAE on Friday, Mr Musharraf said: "Indian and Pakistan relations have again reached a dangerous level. There will be no nuclear attack. If we would attack India with one atomic bomb, then the neighbouring country could finish us by attacking with 20 bombs. Then the only solution is that we should first attack them with 50 atom bombs so that they cannot hit us with 20 bombs. Are you ready to first launch an attack with 50 bombs?"

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Austin » 24 Feb 2019 16:48

Well is he hinting that in any first strike Pakistan should use 50 plus bomb against India

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 17:00

Its not even a hint. Porcine war criminal is sitting in the UK and wants Pak to launch a decapitation strike on India. We should tell him that nomatter where he is hiding, Lt. Saurabh Kalia's dues are pending and will be recovered.

nam
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby nam » 24 Feb 2019 17:23

One aspect about defence spending is the amount of localisation. As more our kit is locally sourced, we are getting more for our money.

50 billion defence budget can get you lot of local kit. You can only maintain a large force with local supplies.

Imagine the money needed to replicate Akash sqd with a external import.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby DrRatnadip » 24 Feb 2019 17:25

https://m.maharashtratimes.com/kolhapur ... 136095.cms

Mr. Raj Thakre has said that Pulwama attack victims were political victims. He is trying to imply that somehow JeM and BJP worked hand in hand to cause this ..
We have people in kashmere who pelt stone on soldiers in broad day light.. we have so called political leaders who have courage to blame PM for such ruthless attack on mother India..

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Lilo » 24 Feb 2019 17:30

Mushy's musharaff is being cooked from all sides so he is squealing in all directions -
Before Pulwama around Feb 1 TSPA started purging the CIA network which Mushy created inside Pakiland -during his tenure.The two gernails being court-martialled for CIA links are Mushy's guys - same is that ex DG ISI whose pension was revoked and publicly humiliated citing OSA.

Jaish e mohammed which tried to assassinate him after Lal masjid massacre where many of its cadre holed up in the red mosque were sent to jannat is back in a tight embrace with TSPA naked in bed - so much so that TSPA was publicly prasied by Masood Azar in a recent rally before Pulwama where TSPA's soldiers participated.


https://youtu.be/CV4-2COD4sg

https://twitter.com/AWGoraya/status/1095480338430726144
Image
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Pakistan has arrested retired Pak army Lt Gen Javed Iqbal Awan for spying for CIA for more than 14 years.
He was commander of Bahawalpur {Bhawalpur is the HQ of JeM}based 31 corps and was also DGMO and Adjutant General of Pak army. He retired in 2016 and was working for CIA 2004 onwards.
Last edited by Lilo on 24 Feb 2019 18:32, edited 7 times in total.

nam
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby nam » 24 Feb 2019 17:33

It does not matter what the jokers say. It is for GoI to retaliate. There are 1.2 people and there will 1.2 opinion.

Cannot change everyone's view. All the irresponsible opinion comes because of behavior of the party in power who have let Pak off the hook for decades.

Once there is a whack Pak rule is forced on any party in power, no one will bother for sympathy with Pak.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Kashi » 24 Feb 2019 18:21

Looks like after Anjan was sent packing, Katare sa'ab picked up the mantle.

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Anjan sent packing, Katare next, then me

Postby Rajiv Lather » 24 Feb 2019 18:36

Stay off the trolling.

Thanks,
KM

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Vivasvat » 24 Feb 2019 18:37

I have another theory for the Pulwama attack. Please pardon me if some learned guru here has already proposed it.

The Pulwama attack was done for banning terrorist organizations in name for the benefit of FATF. Being in a bind between FATF and the jihadis, the only way out seems to be too ban them to save the country from destruction at the hands of India. So, they coaxed JeM to carry out the attack.

Cross posted in the Terroristan thread

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Iyersan » 24 Feb 2019 18:37

10000 CAPF is way too high for Law and order maintainence

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 18:44

^^
Things are moving ... IF action is to be expected I expect the locus to be J&K so better to reinforce the hinterland especially if that something is expected to go beyond a couple of days.

Plus use this opportunity to induct *extra special kits* into the valley under the cover of large force induction.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Kashi » 24 Feb 2019 19:06

Apart from the obvious Article 35A/370, I agree with pankajs ji's argument that the deployment of a high concentration of CAPFs in J&K is a means to secure the hinterland. It has been pointed out that during Kargil war a large number of forces were pulled out from COIN ops and that allowed terrorists to regain the lost ground. GoI would wish to avoid a re-occurrence.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby GopiD » 24 Feb 2019 19:18

Though this Twitter thread may not be completely related to Pulwama attack, it shows to what lengths Modi Government has gone to tie down Pakistan from day 1. Not sure of factual accuracy of the data, but it is good to know.

https://twitter.com/a_sandhan/status/1098552090446557184

Sample
Due to fast operationalization of this port trade with AFG is happening thro this route. This single stroke has played havoc with Pak economy. Lets see in detail
Pak trade with AFG falls from 2.7BN$ to 500 MN$. Pak were expecting 5 BN$ trade.

dinesh_kimar
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby dinesh_kimar » 24 Feb 2019 19:36

Our adversary is supposed to be tactically brilliant, with many aces up his sleeve for bleeding India with a thousand cuts.

It has been discussed on BRF that the enemy enjoys local support all across the country, to carry out his nefarious designs.

Our big ticket response, if already gamed, would, at best, deliver mixed results.

An example, the shifting of terror camps from LOC into army Cantonments, denying us surgical strikes at non military targets.

When striking, cooly thinking thru the entire chain of events becomes essential.

Neshant
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Neshant » 24 Feb 2019 19:49

GopiD wrote:Though this Twitter thread may not be completely related to Pulwama attack, it shows to what lengths Modi Government has gone to tie down Pakistan from day 1. Not sure of factual accuracy of the data, but it is good to know.

https://twitter.com/a_sandhan/status/1098552090446557184

Sample
Due to fast operationalization of this port trade with AFG is happening thro this route. This single stroke has played havoc with Pak economy. Lets see in detail
Pak trade with AFG falls from 2.7BN$ to 500 MN$. Pak were expecting 5 BN$ trade.


How does Afghanistan even have the money to pay for anything?

sunnyP
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby sunnyP » 24 Feb 2019 20:02

X-posting from the terroristan thread.

Why are India entertaining this Paki MP? So soon after Pulwama and he’s from the ruling PTI party.

Pakistani MP meets Narendra Modi and Sushma Swaraj, offers to mediate between countries
Ramesh Kumar Vankwani said he had assured the Indian leaders that Islamabad was not involved in the February 14 attack in Pulwama.


https://scroll.in/latest/914395/pakista ... -countries

Vivasvat
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Vivasvat » 24 Feb 2019 20:16

sunnyP wrote:X-posting from the terroristan thread.

Why are India entertaining this Paki MP? So soon after Pulwama and he’s from the ruling PTI party.

Pakistani MP meets Narendra Modi and Sushma Swaraj, offers to mediate between countries
Ramesh Kumar Vankwani said he had assured the Indian leaders that Islamabad was not involved in the February 14 attack in Pulwama.


https://scroll.in/latest/914395/pakista ... -countries

RAW might have suggested that he can be turned.

krishna_krishna
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby krishna_krishna » 24 Feb 2019 20:19

Just in there was a Hijack attempt in Bangladesh for a Dubai based flight, threat neutralized. Twitter chatter suggest this was to be like a planned 9/11 style attack on an Indian high value target. Looks like porkis are itching for a fight, must have one. This needs to be responded, watch out for more such craps before elections.

Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 24 Feb 2019 20:33

Karan M wrote:^you will of course watch each and every show which states this (Trump prevails over Modi), equal equal and update us. Sigh.

Sometimes it's good to hear a devil's advocate, if only to keep Indians on their toes, and remind them that the status quo is at least a possibility, and also not acceptable! It helps if the person in question does have India's best interests at heart, and is not an Arundhati Roy, Kavita Krishnan, Nikhil Wagle, Dinesh Varshney et al

Shivaji
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Shivaji » 24 Feb 2019 20:41

krishna_krishna wrote:Just in there was a Hijack attempt in Bangladesh for a Dubai based flight, threat neutralized. Twitter chatter suggest this was to be like a planned 9/11 style attack on an Indian high value target. Looks like porkis are itching for a fight, must have one. This needs to be responded, watch out for more such craps before elections.


Deleted.

Dilbu
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Dilbu » 24 Feb 2019 21:11

So the intelligence input about a flight hijacking attempt was spot on this time.

Karan M
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 21:23

Varoon, it's not good for his BP or our mental peace though. Sometimes you just have to ignore the trolls even if they come with fancy designations on TV, press etc.

viveks
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby viveks » 24 Feb 2019 21:31

This mad man must be brought back to either india or pakistan and tried for the murder of so many lives. They make such great efforts to fetch Mr Mallya...when they should be making diligent effort to see him go to trial for the kargil episode.

salaam
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby salaam » 24 Feb 2019 21:55

I find it very interesting, that as soon as one poster is banned, another one with similar thinking is quickly activated.

vishals
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby vishals » 24 Feb 2019 22:00

Rajiv Lather wrote:Among other things 300 cars burnt in Bangalore, 170 cars burnt in Chennai today, the house of the deputy CM of Arunachal Pradesh burnt down, a DSP and a soldier killed in Kashmir and our PM

is taking a holy dip and getting photographed.

Admins: At least have the courage to not delete my posts and ban me.


Lather , A decisive action comes as a surprise, If GOI will act and they will, they need to show TSP & world, it's business as usual here (hence the suprise when balloon goes up), but you will never understand!

And you want PM/GOI to react to 300/150 burning cars? wow! May be you & your like minded brothers did it? Where were you when we lost our brothers on 14th Feb? You want to do Politics here??

You are asking for ban!? you deserve that and hopefully you will get it soon! You know where your place is?

Mods/Admins, Please ban me as well if you think I have violated forum rules! Couldn't stop myself responding to this troll! sorry for language!

-----------
I have edited your post. Please dont repeat the kind of language you have used, it will get you a warning. No exceptions. Any issue with a members post, kindly report the post.

Karan M
Last edited by vishals on 24 Feb 2019 22:17, edited 1 time in total.

Rajiv Lather
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rajiv Lather » 24 Feb 2019 22:18

Any more from the Sturmabteilung (Brownshirts)?

Singha
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2019 22:20

should modi and CCS order a parachute batallion to guard each car parking lot?

ITBP was present @ the arunachal DyCMs house and perhaps did not open fire to prevent civilian casualties - some communities living in arunachal for some decades were sought to be regularized but as usual the dholak sounds "outsider influx, outsider influx" and a mob gathers in NE faster than a jihadi mob in bahawalpur. modi or raga cannot do anything about this DNA in NE minds. and this I say being from that region myself. the older gen has a superiority complex and the new gen is prone to mass hysteria and mobbery.

10,000 paramils were airlifted to J&K in a REFORGER type overnight exercise (whose details would be good to know, since all MSM is quiet on it). the banihal pass route was snowbound for 4 days. these will no doubt help in putting pressure on the rats and islami factions prowling around soon.

vishals
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby vishals » 24 Feb 2019 22:27

Singha wrote:should modi and CCS order a parachute batallion to guard each car parking lot?

ITBP was present @ the arunachal DyCMs house and perhaps did not open fire to prevent civilian casualties - some communities living in arunachal for some decades were sought to be regularized but as usual the dholak sounds "outsider influx, outsider influx" and a mob gathers in NE faster than a jihadi mob in bahawalpur. modi or raga cannot do anything about this DNA in NE minds. and this I say being from that region myself. the older gen has a superiority complex and the new gen is prone to mass hysteria and mobbery.

10,000 paramils were airlifted to J&K in a REFORGER type overnight exercise (whose details would be good to know, since all MSM is quiet on it). the banihal pass route was snowbound for 4 days. these will no doubt help in putting pressure on the rats and islami factions prowling around soon.


Sir, Please don't feed a troll! he was high! he did what he was asked for and definitely doesn't deserve your response!

pankajs
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2019 22:34

Request members to self-censor posts .... keep the forum decorum and let the mods decide on individual cases. Engagement, non-engagement, etc are personal choice and is fine eitherways.

arshyam
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby arshyam » 24 Feb 2019 22:43

Vivasvat wrote:
sunnyP wrote:X-posting from the terroristan thread.

Why are India entertaining this Paki MP? So soon after Pulwama and he’s from the ruling PTI party.



https://scroll.in/latest/914395/pakista ... -countries

RAW might have suggested that he can be turned.

I hope that was sarcasm...?


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