Pulwama Attack

Singha
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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2019 22:49

somewhat like todays B737 hijacking in chittagong, where he was either deranged or wanted to hit something in india 911 style, there was a eerie case in 1979 where a Biman F27 was hijacked from jessore to land in dum dum for a 11 hour spell.

events are recounted here
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1979 ... 414_e.html

video

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby prasannasimha » 24 Feb 2019 22:51

Moderator Note
I have banned Rajiv lather for 7 days. Repeat and it will be permanent. The posts had no relation or relevance to Pulwama. Please keep post relevant and within reason and logical or else posts will be deleted and bans issued.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2019 22:58



this video of multiple stone throwing incidents, not burhan wani encounter

tolerance of the india govt for this kind of behaviour is what has spoilt the kashmiri youth

security forces are merely here trying to "contain" them or bypass them , not catch and thrash these miscreants, with long jail terms.

police let a guy approach with a molotov cocktail, take a hit and then retreat instead of gunning down the dog. no police anywhere in the world will let that happen.

a decade of "democracy" and "soft gloves" have made them lose all fear of the police.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby arshyam » 24 Feb 2019 23:06

Contrast that with the TN police's response to the sterlite protests last year, chalk and cheese. Why do we allow this in J&K?

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 24 Feb 2019 23:13

International opinion, pure and simple.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Vivasvat » 24 Feb 2019 23:29

arshyam wrote:
Vivasvat wrote:RAW might have suggested that he can be turned.

I hope that was sarcasm...?

Just speculating what the reason might be.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Austin » 24 Feb 2019 23:29

Diplomacy aside, India ratchets up firepower against Pakistan

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2019-02-22

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Suresh S » 24 Feb 2019 23:41

silence from india is deafening. It reminds of that day in 1991. I was watching TV with a Egyptian friend. CNN was showing Baghdad. Complete peace and quite. I told my friend this is the lull before the storm. Very next second complete chaos as bombs and missiles started falling and continued into the night.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Rohit_K » 24 Feb 2019 23:45

Video - TSPA convoy of tanks and equipment spotted apparently near Fort Abbas in Pakjab (opp. RJ's Sri Ganganagar district)

https://twitter.com/AamirLiaquat/status ... 9734916096

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Supratik » 24 Feb 2019 23:48

Pak has moved the mujahedin 15 kms inside POK from the LOC.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 00:09

Frankly, instead of GoI giving out excuses through reporters, they should just openly say we will not retaliate. Will save us wasting time on these issues.

If the plan is to use artillery fire assault, what was the need for wait for so many days? Is the expectation the terrorist will be soaking fire in their camps for 15 days after the attack?

In another week, the sympathy factor will gone. Few artillery attack, no one will notice, no one cares about our diplomatic moves and we will be back to business. Pak will keep quiet till the end of election. Another round of killings will occur and we will be back to wasting time on tv debates on what will India do!

Atleast Pak has no hesitation in order PAF CAP on the slightest hint of crisis. We are sh** sca** of escalation on the mere mention of IAF.

Pak alteast has perfected the escalation ladder for it's terror attack. Carry out attack, wait for Indian "threats", announce "peace by national broadcast" and carry out PAF CAP.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Supratik » 25 Feb 2019 00:17

Read what Austin posted. Otherwise every Tom, Dick and Harry internet warrior can conduct war.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby disha » 25 Feb 2019 00:29

arshyam wrote:Contrast that with the TN police's response to the sterlite protests last year, chalk and cheese. Why do we allow this in J&K?


^The above (Burhan Wani) was almost two years back. Lot has changed since then. The above should be contrasted with the arrest of the Hurrirats just yesterday. The answer though is a very long one.

Please treat this part as a refresher on what happened a generation back. I am talking of early 90s here. Remember there was no it-vity then and BRF was some 5-6 years away. Some of the nanha-mujahids on this forum were in their diapers. Thread on "Positive news from US" was almost two decades into future!!

1. Hurriyat was creation of Robin Raphael. Asst. Secretary of State under Clinton administration.

At the State Department, Raphel prioritized resolution of the Kashmir problem to reduce tensions between India and Pakistan as one the central policy positions during her tenure. Her characterization of Kashmir as "disputed territory" – a first in the annals of U.S. diplomacy – made her popular in Pakistan, where her first husband Arnold Raphel had been ambassador


https://www.mid-day.com/articles/the-fall-of-robin-raphel/15752157

Raphel is the Godmother of the Hurriyat Conference. To provide a political face to Kashmiri militancy, she got the Hurriyat together and gave them international ‘legitimacy’. She gave birth to the term ‘disputed territory’ for Kashmir and harmed India’s interest like no other US official has ever done. Every Indian diplomat or civil servant who has worked on the Americas, UN, Kashmir, or internal security desk in the New Delhi has a Robin Raphel story to tell – of how she vitiated India-US relations, how she added fuel to fire in Kashmir in the 1990s, and how she played the Pakistan card openly, even when she was posted in India as a US representative.


2. In a nutshell, Hurriyat was creation of US State Dept. and going after Hurriyat will be akin to going after US foggy bottom.

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/special-report/story/19931130-mounting-international-pressure-pushes-kashmir-issue-beyond-confines-of-simla-agreement-811888-1993-11-30

Mounting international pressure, particularly from the US, and lobbying by human rights groups, push the Kashmir issue beyond the confines of the Simla Agreement.


The latest joke doing the rounds in Srinagar goes something like this; an anti-India procession is stopped by BSF personnel, who, lathis raised, charge the crowd. A little boy holds up his hand to stop them, saying: "If you hit us, we will ring up Bill Clinton." The BSF withdraws.


^Except, the above was not a joke.

Goal of the P4 then was to get Cashmere out of Simla agreement and cut down India to size. Soviet Union had collapsed.

In the Ministry of External Affairs and at the rarefied levels of policy-making, there is the reluctant realisation that history is unravelling before their eyes. That India's declining clout in the global arena in the post-Cold War era has put New Delhi on the defensive.


Soviet union had collapsed. US was the world's sole super power. India had just mortgaged all of its gold to tide over the balance of payment crisis.

Government of India's immediate response was to secure an emergency loan of $2.2 billion[ from the International Monetary Fund by pledging 67 tons of India's gold reserves as collateral security. The Reserve Bank of India had to airlift 47 tons of gold to the Bank of England and 20 tons of gold to the Union Bank of Switzerland to raise $600 million. ...


_______ [Bringing back to context] _______

We now know that the HRW and AI are basically soft tools to pressurize nations into certain outcomes.

Even in US, if one throws as much as a soda bottle (leave alone a molotov cocktail) on to a peace officer, one's chances of living peacefully from then on diminishes to zero in matter of seconds. No HRW. No AI.

However in Cashmere, GOI since 1990s had to listen to this from US SD:

That India needs to 'clean up its act' in terms of human rights violations in the Valley and try to restore some semblance of governance.


______ [Changing Context] __________

So what changed? Why the UNSC resolution is considered big? Why the statement from the POTUS is considered big? Why even now when Robin Raphael was in Upaghanistan talking to taliban, the news was met with a mere meh...

Of course the perfidy of Bakistan as a rogue nation in exporting nuclear bums and IT (International Terrorist) Bums and basically a land of pure terror - terroristan is known. Trajectory of Bakistan was predicted in 1950s itself, it took 3 generations to get there.

But the trajectory of India is even more interesting. Sample just this:

1993:

Indo-US trade has reached 6 billion dollars with the trade balance in India's favour of one billion dollars. US investment in India in the last nine months has been around 820 million dollars, more than the total American investment since 1947.


25 years later -> 2018:

Bilateral trade grew to USD 126 billion last year, and, parallel with the launch of the Strategic Energy Partnership, US-sourced oil and liquefied natural gas landed on Indian shores.


And

India attract $38 billion in FDI, higher than China's $32 billion this year.


__________

Cashmeres -> Population of 5 districts of Kashmir constituting Kashmir valley. It does not include Kashmiris outside of valley, Ladakhis and Jammuvasis.

Cashmeres have overplayed their stone pelting. Every time a video goes out by the forces urging them to stay away and not pelt stones while action against JEM/LET and other bakistani terrorists and local armed jihadis with guns is conducted it basically bolsters the credentials of our forces as being very gentle and not of occupation and actually pushes the cashmeres further into a corner. When the hammer will come down on gun-toting jihad spewing cashmeres and it will, it will be met with a sense of relief!

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Feb 2019 00:35

Austin wrote:Diplomacy aside, India ratchets up firepower against Pakistan

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2019-02-22


I don’t know if that escalation scale is accurate. Something that could be discussed in another thread. It’s costing Pakistan quite a bit to mobilize and rattling their nerves in the process. The way this is playing out is that it will force TSP to take an offensive against India, and that will be their demise.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 25 Feb 2019 00:37

Lilo wrote:
Katare wrote:Army (Revenue+capital)
Year. Budget. Expenditure
2010-11. 74019.9 78,239.69
2011-12. 82,820.4. 84,081.29
2012-13. 96,564.83. 91,450.51
2013-14. 99,003.03. 99,464.21
2014-15. 118,377.62 114,559.95
2015-16. 1,30,658.33. 1,23,550.88
2016-17. 1,40,675.80. 1,45,364.04
2017-18. 1,45,167.22. 1,33,501.55
What is the context to this post being posted here in the Pulwama attack thread?

Below is the actual "defence expenditure" since the past 8 years.And the defence expenditure variation over the years in comparision to India's peer group given by various sources.India has tripled its economy since 2006 - it was 1 Trillion USD in 2006 , now its 3 Trillion USD in 2018.
Image
Image
Image

Katare wrote:.... the govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA and lowest amount as percentage of gdp since Nehru’s time. These are uncontested hard facts.

....

What unadulterated BS!
At which point has the govt allocated lower amounts for defence than the pathetic UPA?
And the facile claims on the defence GDP percent takes the cake - comparing it to your bandit nehru's times.The same Nehru who was claiming that India doesnt need an Army - and was doing traitorous acts like gifting off 80% share of Indus waters to Pakis - while "giving" India's teeming millions dying hunger deaths a measly 20%.
I wonder why no one assasinated bandit Nehru for his traitorous acts on Kashmir & IWT negotiated in 1960.Now we have to listen to this bullshit about "the golden Nehruji's times" when purportedly "Indian Army was well taken care off".

Katare,
We all can see through your mendacious FUD on defense expenditure trying to target this Pulwama thread for propaganda.

First you claim that "govt has allocated lower amounts for defense than even the pathetic UPA" when each year the defence expenditure saw a healthy growth of around 8% compared to previous year.Then your claim of the defence as % of GDP....

I can already imagine that when India becomes 10 trillion economy in say 15 years you will again post same BS that compared to chacha nehru's time "the budget % is the least" in History carefully hiding the fact that as with any doubling/tripling economy the defence budget may show gradual decrease (unless there are war exigencies in the horizon) like it was 2.6% in 2006 and it may become 2.0% in 2035 ?

edit:
Pankaj ji these are the links
https://www.prsindia.org/parliamenttrac ... is-defence
https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/fil ... %20GDP.pdf


First cut the BS and personal attacks. Second use official data not from gora propeganda or some DDM source. Educate yourself before mouthing off and find data from the official source.

I used Nehru’s govt as the lowest point for Indian defense preparedness in independent India and you start to preach about how Nehru didn’t spend enough and he should have been assassinated, really? Get a hold of yourself, read what’s written and act like an civilized adult. Don’t forget I am equally capable of tearing you a few new ones but for now I would hold my restraints. If you don’t like what I write please use ignore if you choose to converse be civilized and focuse on subject only.

Here is directly from govt.....

Analysis of the data provided by the Ministry indicates that during 2013-14, Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of Central Government Expenditure was 13.5%.This has declined steadily to a level of 11.44% in 2018-19. Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of GDP, which was to the extent of 2.08% in the year 2013-14 has also been continuously declining and it has now, in 2018-19, reached 1.49%.

There are 5 reports that were submitted to 16th parliament last month. These repirts are not easy to read but if one can keep at it they do have very good data, points and rebuttals.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2019 01:02

I hope you do realize that Lilo's information may be more accurate despite being "gora" because it takes into account all defense expenditure, including that on CPMF. Lets kindly take data as it is and point out what's inaccurate, not just that it's foreign sourced. This is not a subjective analysis of an Indian weapons program, where the swedish leftist at SIPRIs will take the opportunity to mock poverty stricken India's nuclear ambitions, and cook up stories. Hopefully, with numbers they will demonstrate some integrity and rely on numbers reported by the Indian Govt.

I went looking for data to back this point up, and there is this old article by Shukla before he went overly political, making the same point.


How much is the defence budget really?
2008

The defence allocation in the Budget that Mr Chidambaram presented on February 29 officially went up 10%, from Rs 96,000 crore last year to Rs 1,05,600 crore. But actual spending on defence had crossed the one lakh crore rupee Rubicon at least two years ago.

There is no apparent reason for India to understate its defence budget. No IMF conditions constrain defence spending; military expenditure remains well below the politically correct level of 3%. But India continues to camouflage what other comparable liberal democracies transparently show as defence spending.

HOW THEY ADD UP
(Figure in Rs crore)
Declared defence budget 1,05,600
Nuclear forces 1,300
Paramilitary forces 7,632
Paramilitary housing 555
Border fencing 608
Border infrastructure 504
Pensions 15,564
Ministry of Defence 2,370
Actual defence budget 1,34,133

Is there an international benchmark for identifying defence expenditure? In fact there is: a United Nations General Assembly resolution (35/142B of Dec 12, 1980) standardised the reporting of military expenditure. This benchmark is accepted almost globally; 115 countries have reported since 1981.

Resolution 35/142B only legislated what transparent governments, defence economists and academics, and people with common sense already understood. Expenditure on strategic nuclear weapons, it says, constitutes defence expenditure; so does expenditure on paramilitary forces that are organised, armed and employed for guarding the borders and which could be used in combat against another country. All expenditure on military personnel, including pensions for retired soldiers, is to be reported as defence expenditure. The construction and repair of structures and facilities used for defence, says Resolution 35/142, is military spending. Command and communications systems for defending the country should be financed from the defence budget.

New Delhi, however, distributes a hefty chunk of this spending across heads other than defence. Within India's nuclear arsenal, only the missiles that carry nukes to their targets are paid for from the defence budget. The bill for the nuclear warheads themselves is picked up by the Department of Atomic Energy. It is impossible to determine how much of the Rs 3,908 crore allocated (through Demand No 4) to the Department of Atomic Energy goes into nuclear power generation and how much goes into bombs. But even if one-third of the DAE's budget goes into warhead production and research, Rs 1,300 crore must be added to the defence budget.

India's plethora of paramilitary forces are allocated money from the Home Ministry budget (under Major Heads 2055 and 4055), even though forces like the Border Security Force (BSF), the Indo-Tibet Border Police (ITBP), the Sashastra Seema Bal (SSB) and the India Reserve Battalions (IRB) are deployed on the borders in defence of the realm. The Home Ministry also pays for the Assam Rifles (AR), even though it is commanded by army officers on deputation, and operates largely under the army. The same is true of the National Security Guard (NSG), the army-manned Black Cat commandos, charged with special missions like anti-hijack, hostage rescue, and anti-terrorist operations. The bill for these forces comes to Rs 7,632 crore. This does not include the Rs 4,219 crore budget for the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), of which an estimated one-fourth is engaged in counter-militant operations in J&K, Assam, Tripura, Nagaland and Manipur.

The Home Minister picks up the tab not just for these forces, but also a Rs 608 crore bill for fencing the Pakistan and the Bangladesh borders this year. Shivraj Patil also pays Rs 555 crore for housing the paramilitary forces while they perform military duties. And his colleague, Mr P Chidambaram, flouts UN Resolution 35/142B by making him pay another Rs 504 crore for a high-tech surveillance and infrastructure network for the borders with Pakistan, China and Myanmar. Another Rs 100 crore is allocated for “critical infrastructure within extremist affected areas”, which is used largely for security-related construction.

But the most glaring exclusions from India’s defence budget are the Rs 15,564 crore allocated for pensions (Demand No 20), and an allocation of Rs 2,370 crore for the Ministry of Defence (Demand No 19). The MoD allocation funds a regular army regiment called the J&K Light Infantry, the Coast Guard, and the MoD secretariat itself; it is impossible to argue that this is not defence expenditure. And even in countries as opaque as China, pensions to retired soldiers form a part of the military budget.

Factoring in these hidden expenses, India’s defence budget really amounts to Rs 1,34,133 crore, rather than the Rs 1,05,600 crore that the government declares; that is a little over 2.5% of India’s GDP.

While this article seeks to set the record straight, India remains a country where even experts, top government officials, and the legislature do nothing to debate defence expenditure and how to get more bang for the buck. Allocations that are a fraction of defence are discussed threadbare, but widespread ignorance of defence planning means that even an allocation of Rs 1,34,133 crore would probably have been passed by Parliament without a word of debate. In a land of holy cows, defence remains the most blessed of them.


In short Lilo's data is most likely correct.

And everyone, please cut out all the name calling.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2019 01:30

Now coming to the Defence Budget, its pretty common sensical that what's hurting the current budget levels is simply cost of manpower. Again, crunching the numbers shows the salary & pension component in the budgets is steadily increasing. The GOI put an extra grant for OROP at the time, and has disbursed Rs 35,000 crores, but the amounts thereafter are not small either.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/budget/o ... 0axSK.html

The defence budget, however, fails to make any departure from the troubles that ail it. The interim budget presented a budget estimate of ~4.31 lakh crore on defence, including defence pensions.

This is a 6.3% increase over last year – business as usual for a pre-election budget, but that has turned very expensive for India’s armed forces.

A full 24% of the defence budget, Rs1.12 lakh crore, is spent on defence pensions. The bulk of this is for the 1.3-million-strong Indian Army.

The Indian Army’s pensions and salaries alone amount to Rs1.82 lakh crores – a whopping 42 % of the defence budget. This situation is not new, but has continued to grow worse thanks to successive pay commissions, OROP, and India’s inability to reform and rethink the armed forces.


A quick look at the capital outlay for defence suggests that there is Rs1.03 lakh crore for things other than salaries and operational expenditures.


Now, if I look at it % wise (and I just quickly ran the numbers on my mobile) the situation is harshest for the IA whose capex is now ranging from ~8-10% of the budget available, the Navy & AF are skating by at ~50%-60%. The challenge here is even with those supposedly high numbers, committed liabilities eat up a lot of the budget. This just proves why we need homegrown munitions and platforms, over a period of time we can't afford $90-100 Mn imported fighters.

To be fair, this is a problem this Govt has inherited. Profligate ordering without looking towards the future and increasing personnel size of all sorts of units, without rationalization was bound to affect us one day or the other.

Now, the current Govt is working with the IA to reduce the IA's tail to teeth ratio, closed down the military farms, is out-sourcing more functions to trade, but harsher measures are likely, including unlocking the value from the defence cantoments located within city areas (we are seeing the same logic with OFB, Railways) & freeze on recruitment.
The OROP+ Pensions imbroglio is a huge challenge, and blaming the current Govt for it is pointless. Some of the blame for this needs to go back to the HQ planners in the IA as well, for not figuring out this issue was going to arrive and working with MOD to forestall its impact, no matter which Govt was in power.

Coming back to Capex.
Next, I went looking to see whether this Govt has been actually placing orders on domestic kit of the right kind. OFB ammo production we have covered. But a good proxy for defence focus is the BEL orderbook. From 2015 onwards, its significantly increased & there have been substantial orders of the order of several thousand crore per quarter placed regularly (again, not one offs). Take a look at the numbers for the order book.

2012-13, 5255 Crores
2013-14, 4230 Crores
2014-15, 5130 Crores
2015-16, 17,094 Crores
2016-17, 16,300 Crores
2017-18, 10,000 Crores
2018- Q3, 16,052 Crores (1Qrtr still to go).


This combined with the fact that BELs partner which is DRDO, also has a constant increase in its funding, is a clear indicator that the Govt is trying to get more bang for the buck by looking towards local purchases which don't bankrupt it & keep the money in Indian industry as versus imports alone.

The BEL orderbook is healthy & remains so, and they are currently spending a fairly substantial 9%+ of their revenue on R&D. This is a big deal because several DRDO programs are part funded by BEL.

GOI also put a cap on the margins BEL could expect from its captive market, share price got hammered, but the intent was correct & remains valid.

In short, I will still stand by what I originally stated, when combined with the ammunition reserve & spares build up, focus on serviceability etc, this Govt has not slacked on defence, has plugged existing holes and has tried its bit to manage the finances for maximal impact.

However, the IA manpower issue will have to be addressed sooner or later.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 25 Feb 2019 01:30

Article 35 stays. Full stop.

No change in stance on Article 35A; only elected govt can take stand: J&K govt https://www.abplive.in/india-news/artic ... ssion=true
Putting all speculation to rest, the Jammu and Kashmir administration on Sunday said its stance remained unchanged that only an elected government would be able to take a stand on Article 35-A before the Supreme Court, which is hearing a bunch of petitions challenging its validity.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby nam » 25 Feb 2019 01:52

The escalation image shown is nonsense. What is Pak's objective of escalating? Expecting to defeat India?

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Feb 2019 02:06

nam wrote:The escalation image shown is nonsense. What is Pak's objective of escalating? Expecting to defeat India?


As it has always been. That is to threaten a nuclear conflict, internationalize Cash-mere, and secure foreign aid for continued embezzlement for another couple of generations.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby disha » 25 Feb 2019 02:19

nam wrote:Frankly, instead of GoI giving out excuses through reporters, they should just openly say we will not retaliate. Will save us wasting time on these issues.


There is a desi concept called "dauda dauda ke marenge"., which loosely translates to "will make you run before we beat you".

Pak alteast has perfected the escalation ladder for it's terror attack. Carry out attack, wait for Indian "threats", announce "peace by national broadcast" and carry out PAF CAP.


In their escalation ladder, they had something like run around shouting "war" and "nukular" and extend begging bowl. They are still trying to climb that ladder but nobody wants to give any more to the beggars.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby disha » 25 Feb 2019 02:22

Adding bolded part on how I read it:

IndraD wrote:Article 35 stays. Full stop.

Putting all speculation to rest, the Jammu and Kashmir administration on Sunday said its stance remained unchanged that only an elected government would be able to take a stand on Article 35-A before the Supreme Court, which is hearing a bunch of petitions challenging its validity.


How sir? The article is talking about J&K admin stance in front of SC. I also have a stance. I am sure my stance is more valid than the J&K admin stance in front of SC. Though no news media is printing about my stance :rotfl:

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby IndraD » 25 Feb 2019 02:27

current J&K govt is extension of central govt which may mean this govt is not going to touch 35 fearing Lutyens gowns crackdown or which ever u want to see this !

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2019 02:58

I don't think govt us afraid of Lootyens.
It will do what it has to do.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 25 Feb 2019 03:09

I quite never comprehend Why China is so in love with JeM and the pig head Masood Azhar? As LeT is on a downward trajectory, is China trying to propup a new replacement to keep us unhinged? What’s the game plan here, they are spending quite a bit of political capital on this guy? Does he hold any cards in Xinjiang?

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 25 Feb 2019 03:19

I think no one should have a doubt that there will be a response and it’ll be substantial too. There is no room for the govt or the libturds in this one. Not only that but from now on, the nation would always demand a payback and govts would have little room to wiggle out. Pakistan had put itself in a tight corner and soon mighty indic blows are going land on its ugly face

The question is what is possible and would it be meaningful or face saving exercise. And that would depend on the ground reality of what has been done/repaired/built in the last 5 years. Modi and Doval give me a lot of hope but the way defense ministry’s been running in last 5 years worries me a lot too.
Last edited by Katare on 25 Feb 2019 03:29, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2019 03:21

China is cracking down on Uighers.
By embracing Azhar and JeM they are signalling political Islam that they are not against Islam but only Uigher rebels.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Katare » 25 Feb 2019 03:28

Karan, if you are interested we can talk this further in some other thread, don’t want to get this thread derailed.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Lilo » 25 Feb 2019 04:24

Katare wrote:First cut the BS and personal attacks. Second use official data not from gora propeganda or some DDM source. Educate yourself before mouthing off and find data from the official source.

I used Nehru’s govt as the lowest point for Indian defense preparedness in independent India and you start to preach about how Nehru didn’t spend enough and he should have been assassinated, really? Get a hold of yourself, read what’s written and act like an civilized adult. Don’t forget I am equally capable of tearing you a few new ones but for now I would hold my restraints. If you don’t like what I write please use ignore if you choose to converse be civilized and focuse on subject only.

Here is directly from govt.....

Analysis of the data provided by the Ministry indicates that during 2013-14, Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of Central Government Expenditure was 13.5%.This has declined steadily to a level of 11.44% in 2018-19. Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of GDP, which was to the extent of 2.08% in the year 2013-14 has also been continuously declining and it has now, in 2018-19, reached 1.49%.

There are 5 reports that were submitted to 16th parliament last month. These repirts are not easy to read but if one can keep at it they do have very good data, points and rebuttals.
Yes i am quite aware how you are capable of tearing yourself new ones with each post of yours by copy pasting s**t (removed from its context) say from parliamentary reports with zero understanding - i am well familiar with your mode of operating from my past interactions with you.Btw it is you who brought in bandit Nehru here not me.
Your penchant to pose with your "wisdom" with quotes like "i have read the "not easy to read" reports - they are 5 reports you know" or "do you know i read the whole constitution - it was not easy to read" like stuff as you did with me previously. Finally you will weasel away with your trademark quips like below
Katare to Karan M ji wrote:..Lets disagree and move on.
So i dont take kindly to this FUD you are mendaciously spreading on defence expenditure here in this thread concerning Pulwama massacre of our Jawans.
Take this below quote of yours.
Katare wrote:Analysis of the data provided by the Ministry indicates that during 2013-14, Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of Central Government Expenditure was 13.5%.This has declined steadily to a level of 11.44% in 2018-19. Defence Expenditure, as a percentage of GDP, which was to the extent of 2.08% in the year 2013-14 has also been continuously declining and it has now, in 2018-19, reached 1.49%.
Now every one who is even slightly familiar with defence budgeting in India will know that since 2016 Union Budget, defence pensions have been categorised under a new and separate head, resulting in a whole percentage point decrease in the budgeted nominal defence spend to GDP ratio.Guess since that SIPRI's report dont match with your new figure of 1.49% (where you forgot to add defence pensions) you now label it "gora propaganda".
You were not aware of this and yet you want to spread FUD that Defence spending has suddenly dropped to 1.49% comparing to the earlier figures during congie times which included defence pensions under the common head of defence expenditure.Which is why you dont even seem to accept those PRS figures compiled from Govt Budget & expenditure documents over 8 years(including defence pensions) and label it as "gora propaganda" lol.Atleast know PRS is an Indian organisation.
....
Is India underfunding defence, compared to other countries? Do we really spend, as is breathlessly claimed all the time, “only 1.6 per cent of GDP” on defence? The simple answer to both is — not at all. To start with, our defence expenditure is not 1.6 per cent of GDP, it is around 2.2 per cent of GDP. It has never fallen below the 2 per cent benchmark. Further, at 2.2 per cent, we are not an outlier compared to the rest of the world. On the contrary, this is quite on par with the rest of the world. On the contrary, this is quite on par with the rest of the world on defence spending.
So what accounts for the perception gap? It is, unfortunately, the mainstreaming of wrong data — repeated ad nauseam. As the old chestnut goes – Garbage In, Garbage Out. The widely quoted “1.6 per cent of GDP” number excludes defence pensions,
.....

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ma ... 846686.cms
For better picture of India's defence spending "from Nehruji's" times folks can also see this infographic of WorldBank which is itself compiled from SIPRI's yearly data.Notice how post 2014 SIPRI's figure is tending to 2.5% with less wide swings as seen in previous admins.The graph clearly shows that the bull-s**t talking point of "lowest % of GDP since "bandit Nehru ji's" times" was actually hit in 2007. Image
Link: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS ... cations=IN

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Mort Walker » 25 Feb 2019 06:49

Take this for what it's worth:

Atmosphere Beginning to Thaw, Says Pak Lawmaker in India for Kumbh Mela

Why wasn't this guy's visa revoked? And why the hell is SS meeting him?

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Lilo » 25 Feb 2019 06:54

Mort Walker wrote:Take this for what it's worth:

Atmosphere Beginning to Thaw, Says Pak Lawmaker in India for Kumbh Mela

Why wasn't this guy's visa revoked? And why the hell is SS meeting him?

The Sindh-based PTI leader Ramesh Kumar Vankwani, who is a lawmaker on minority seat, is in India as part of a 220-member delegation from 185 countries who attended the Kumbh Mela on an invite of the Indian government.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Feb 2019 06:57

No Isn't it better that the Pakis get their guard down

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Feb 2019 07:34

Sorry, Sanity Break.
Could it be that Imran, who looks like he might have when Pakistan were 9 down for 65 and facing innings defeat, is trying his best to keep the lid on? The visit by the Paki Hindu MP can be interpreted as Pak Civilian Govt. olive branch?
Perhaps the hon. members here could take a small break and ask the age-old question: "Qui Bono?" about the coordinated suicide attacks on convoys in India and Iran? I don't see how Imran gained. Same argument could have been made in Nov. 2008, I don't remember which thief was ruling Terroristan then, etc. Consider that YOU (meaning the certainty of getting you excited) may be the prime reason why someone thinks it is worthwhile to conduct such an attack?
Meanwhile, for reasons cited b4, I have lost interest in Pulwama. And Kashmir. This is all a sideshow. Imran is also a Victim Of Terrorism Onlee. :((

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Feb 2019 07:53

Could not resist posting this. Belongs in ramana's War thread, but he has threatened Sumeri Pan. :eek:

CLEAR PROOF: IMRAN READS PEEAREF.
Prime Minister Khan responds to Modi:
'Give peace a chance' :rotfl:
Sanaullah Khan | Naveed SiddiquiUpdated February 24, 2019


I agree 400%: Hey, Modiji,
GIVE PEACE A CHANCE: RECONSTRUCT PAKISTAN

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby yensoy » 25 Feb 2019 08:33

IndraD wrote:current J&K govt is extension of central govt which may mean this govt is not going to touch 35 fearing Lutyens gowns crackdown or which ever u want to see this !


No that's not the way it works. Governments can encourage publicly unpopular or divisive measures to be implemented by passing the buck to the judiciary, and getting the judiciary to adjudicate appropriately. That gives them plausible deniability. "We are in full support of 35-A, but what to do, SC ruled it unconstitutional! boo hoo" kind of stuff. That's the way they handled 377 and triple talaq which basically had government tacit support in one case and overt support in the other.

I think such a scheme may be underway here, but of course SC being independent can swing either way.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby souravB » 25 Feb 2019 08:50

UlanBatori wrote:Sorry, Sanity Break.
Could it be that Imran, who looks like he might have when Pakistan were 9 down for 65 and facing innings defeat, is trying his best to keep the lid on? The visit by the Paki Hindu MP can be interpreted as Pak Civilian Govt. olive branch
--snip--

UB sir, for all his rhetorics, dImran knows they are already bankrupted and might not even have enough snow to powder his nose if they have to mobilize. Hence olive branch n all. The jungjoo fauj is a pious birader-hood so they have no such vice, hence no problem going to war.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Feb 2019 08:52

Wonder how independent SC is on matters of real national security and strategy. I am sure TheirHonners also eat rice, hain? The question b4 the court is whether people in one state should have special privileges 68 years after the Constitution was adopted. It is similar to the decision re: Princely States and we know how that ended. I do not believe the PS' Administrations were asked for permission, to abolish their Privy Purses (which were also written into the Constitution or whatever). Here the Indian public are asking why these *&^&** StoneThrowers' Purse should be continued at the expense of the aam desi.
So the J&K Administration (yes, part of the Central Government) can afford to say: "Hey, WE r innocent!" Does not matter what they say, to the SC. Nor to the stone-throwers who will attack them.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby souravB » 25 Feb 2019 09:06

UlanBatori wrote:Wonder how independent SC is on matters of real national security and strategy. I am sure TheirHonners also eat rice, hain?

All the Honors will take the first British Airways flight out towards land of pure. They will take few of their courtesans to drive the taxis already bought. With the vast experience on their backs they surely can also secure places in the soon to be established family ***cough sharia cough*** courts.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby UlanBatori » 25 Feb 2019 09:08

My reading of the "It's not on this Tuesday's docket" is that it is an effort to reduce the advance notice to the rioters - and give security forces a chance to get them pinned down, before the decision comes. SOP in Los Angeles each time a polis is found innocent for shooting down an unarmed citizen of a certain skin color.

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Re: Pulwama Attack

Postby yensoy » 25 Feb 2019 09:15

Special privilege with regards to residency and property ownership is not restricted to Kashmir - it is also available to privileged citizens of areas of HP and North-East, and possibly other areas of the country that I am not aware of. 35A being revisited will cause a lot of heartburn in other parts of the country as well.

Personally I feel that a graduated measure will be a workable solution - residency of certain period of time (say 5 years) can be made a requirement of land purchase, and such land can only be purchased by bonafide residents, and can exclude agricultural land (for which residency can be say 10+ years). Land purchase by corporates can be restricted to corporates registered in that state and paying taxes to that state.


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