Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Gagan » 09 Jan 2020 22:53

fanne wrote:We are struggling with the root cause of the problem (of indigenous product not making to production fast)
Being here at BRF for almost 20 years, let me reduce it in few sentences what people have been saying

Excellent post fanne ji

My 2 naya paisa:
There are two issues I see:
Corruption of the sort that happens in India also happens in the west, in china, roos and everywhere.
My peeve is, why do netas have to take bribes from Augusta Westland, and not from Reliance or Tata hain ji?
Why not liberalize and privatize defence production and unleash the power of the private industry on a Capitalist Model. Right now we are on a british sort of a model with trickle funding, small production runs, inefficiencies galore.
Massive scale production has to be allowed - a true blue capitalist model, geared for both domestic production and export.

I don't mind if our netas take ghoos during export of indian made defence goods, as opposed to ghoos during import, since everyone else all around the world is taking ghoos as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Haridas » 09 Jan 2020 23:31

Vivek K wrote:.... The only solution - root out corruption and unpatriotic behavior wherever you see it. But it is as difficult today as it was when the Marut first flew.

You spoke my mind. Thank you :)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 10 Jan 2020 01:29

So how this corruption works (and what is this shadowy Chandigarh group). No less than 3-4 air chief have bypassed LCA and rooted for Rafale (and it is a great plane, answer to our current woes, no doubt about it). But it is easy to see that LCA could have been inducted faster when we are already 27% less than authorized strength and will loose another 25% of the authorized strength in next few years (i.e. will be at 50% strength if we do not induct new planes). Almost 400 planes short. Rafale can at most fill either 36 or 60 or 100 planes of that 400 (our economy does not allow for any more than this). It's a no brainer so how did this corruption work really?

Was it to make GOI so out of option that it had no other choice but to buy Rafale? (even if it meant put up some more Gold with Bank of London?)

Or it was just the company line, where professionally IAF knew that given the budget, if it went for 200/300 LCA, it may never get Rafale. and IAF with 270 MKI, 60 Mig 29 and 50 M2k and some x Rafale (X between 50 to 100) was better than 270 MKI, 300 LCA1/2/3, 60 Mig 29 and 50 M2k. Instead of making the case in public or private, all chief just stuck to the line, kept on postponing/sabotaging LCA so that the Rafale route was never closed. I may not agree with it but it is not corruption. Maybe it is insubordination of the political leadership and towards common sense, MIC capability...they could have had X lCA and Y Rafale, where Rafale number was less than what they thought originally.

or was the corruption where a group of people had a deal with Rafale and were hell bent on getting that plane (it is good is besides the point) at cost of severely handicapping IAF (no LCA, delayed MKI mordenization etc etc). But then how they would manipulate so many chiefs, even the retired ones, other high ranking officers, there is just too many. Something does not add up.

Bold edits by me (@deejay)

Mod Note: Fanne, if you are leveling accusations or making slants/slurs on Govt Officials for their work while in service, you will use links and references for such claims. This is not a forum to take out your frustration unless of course you can back your claims. Specifically for this post, I am warning you. Other posters to kindly note that enough discussions on why's and how's of Military Procurement is available and if you call out corruption for a particular case you better back it up.

Bold edits by me (@deejay)

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 10 Jan 2020 03:24

Indranil, could you check with your sources whether the dual rack pylon that is coming with the FOC Tejas Mk1 can be used on the IOC Tejas Mk1s of No.45 Squadron too?

Also, will the IOC Tejas Mk1s get a software upgrade to FOC standard software build? How much additional work do the IOC jets need to retrofit the fuel probe and functional GSh-23 cannon? I would expect the IAF will want all 40 of its Tejas Mk1s to be at one FOC level for its capabilities and also to ease future upgrades.

Also, what is the status of integration of the Astra BVRAAM? When is ASRAAM coming in as the NGAAM? It was shown on the ORCA renderings as well, so it does seem to be an accepted fact that it will replace the R-73E at some stage.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 10 Jan 2020 07:03

The best solution? A harsh sanction by USA and Russia, with China threatening with war. On the hartal day when the food outlets are closed, we cook!!

The second best solution? The govt coming out with a strict 'no import' policy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 10 Jan 2020 08:23

Sir the second one would cause the knowledgeable journos of our country to shout out along the lines of "islam khatre mein hai" for security

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2020 00:43

Click on the link below and read the entire thread. Gurus, kindly review for veracity...as a previous tweet of his was debunked on BRF.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 4704114690 ---> Dr. Girsh S Deodhare, Director of the ADA has confirmed that India is working on the development of an Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (AGCAS) which is an aircraft software system to prevent crash of an aircraft if the pilot faces a g-induced loss of consciousness while flying.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vidur » 12 Jan 2020 08:56

Vivek K wrote:fanne ji,

1. Corruption - Is the main issue. We hang our hopes on one person or the other. But we are unable to get it out of our system. It is all pervasive. When he came to power, Rajiv Gandhi was Mr. clean and did some good work. By the time he was ousted from power, the cleanliness was lost buying Bofors. Same with others that followed. Now we hang our hat on Modi - yet make in India is falling by the wayside and we call assemble in India as a good substitute. Then comes ACM Badhuria and we all hang our hats on a couple of his statements. We will watch and see how he shapes up - the MK1A order is not yet signed. We have decided to retire Mig-27s and Jags yet there is no urgency for the inducting Mk1 LCAs in numbers. But we are very concerned about 18 more Rafale - the most insanely expensive aircraft to hit our shores. Will it provide the same coverage as 4-5 LCAs? Or will the IAF chief 15 years later say the PAK-FA is the only solution to the PAF F-16s and not the AMCA or the ORCA or MWF or whatever. For heaven's sake is patriotism dead in India?
2. Forces know best - well I give you Marut and its replacements - Jaguar & Mig-27; 3 Netras purchase; Or the Arjun purchase - forces reporting torsion bar failure in Arjun, the Renk transmission sabotage and the best one of them all is the breakdown of the T-90 Bheeshma at the Tank Biathlon. I wish they wouldn't take our heroes's names and attach them to these imported midgets!! The best example of forces knowing best is the much hyped Sukhoi 30 MKI - supposedly the solution to our problems, the best air dominance fighter in the world! Well, great it wasn't shot down by the F-16s but where did the dominance go when it was really needed?
3. I am not sure what the point here is - if we cannot write an ASQR then we should perhaps outsource this job to foreign vendors? Come sir, you seriously don't believe that.
4. By whole system you probably mean a MIC - how will you have a MIC if you don't buy local weapons in large numbers. Can you have a local MIC with an order of 40 aircraft or 83? To have a local MIC, IA should have ordered 1500 Arjuns after it beat the T90s in a biased one on one test (what the IA actually did is so shameful that I will not write it here). To have a local MIC, IAF should have been still flying the Maruts, just like it is flying the Mig-21s that apart being lethal to the enemy, have been harsh on our pilots too. The Netra presented a perfect opportunity to be mass purchased - IAF could have bought up to 15-20 after all India is a large country with multiple threats. And the IN was using Mig-29Ks @ less than 10% serviceability but it doesn't want to buy the NLCA Mk2.

The only solution - root out corruption and unpatriotic behavior wherever you see it. But it is as difficult today as it was when the Marut first flew.


I usually do not respond harshly to individual posters but with all due respect I have to say that you sir post a lot of lies and nonsense. There is no corruption in the Raksha Mantralaya at this level for last 6 years. No 'indegenous' programs have suffered because of this. There was no corruption in Rafale as has been proved by government. Those allegations were purely political as all know. How is LCA MK1A orders connected to Rafale ?

You vilify one of the best Air Chiefs this country has produced. Disgusted to see this here. Shame on you sir. Shame on you.

I will take some time off. Wish you all the very best.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 12 Jan 2020 09:32

Vidur ji before you go, apologies (and not sure if you are responding to my or Vivek K post).

There has been corruption in defense in past (Bofors or VIP helicopters - proven in court). It is true as daylight that this govt is very patriotic (and not corrupt by extension) and fighting very hard to eradicate it.

However, defense corruption has many actors - Politicians, babus, retired and current service members, media owner, sundry entrepreneurs, other public and private entities/individuals and foreign govt/agents/middleman. What has happened in the last 6 years is, politicians are now not part of the current corrupt equation. Rest of the people (and the eco system built over last 70 years, staring from jeep import during Nehru ji) is intact. Of course the current govt is trying to get honest and efficient bureaucrat to replace the corrupt ones, but the eco system is still intact and will push back (hence Rafale scam cry out, it cut many people out of the deal, or maybe why some of the big items are not coming in fast, and many people pocket is not getting warmed).

It has created new systems (cds), pushing for indigenous product (no less than NAMO has said 10 times on LCA - but see the power of eco system, it is still not signed), but the 'bad' people still exist. We have never talked on that aspect, not discussed enough, perhaps we should.

I will tell you a good reason to push for these kinds of discussion, and not hide it, name and shame these people. Currently an anchor is going whole hog with tukde tukde gang, to the extent of creating fake videos. In such not a new by Indian standard, almost all Indian MSM are full of themselves and pass opinion as news. But you dig deeper and find out that some related to this chap was in army and under his watch they were planning to give away Siachin to TSP. You need to call out these people.

The above comments from my side (and I think from Vivek K side as well, I will let him speak for himself) is an indictment against these people and not against NAMO (and last 6 years). If anything, almighty had sent them at the right time to pull Bharata from a precipice, something that happened to us around 1000 AD that led to 1000 years of slavery. We were in for another 1000 years of slavery, perhaps extermination, thanks God these guys showed up. They are best with all their good and bad. We can help by identifying the remnant of pre 1947 India that has survived in form of Congress (as a political party) and Lutyen Delhi.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2020 11:36

Kartik, you had asked a variety of questions earlier. I think one line can answer all of your questions.

All IOC Mk1s will be brought to FOC standard. They will be brought to Mk1A+ standard at MLU.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2020 14:49

Vidur wrote:I usually do not respond harshly to individual posters but with all due respect I have to say that you sir post a lot of lies and nonsense. There is no corruption in the Raksha Mantralaya at this level for last 6 years. No 'indegenous' programs have suffered because of this. There was no corruption in Rafale as has been proved by government. Those allegations were purely political as all know. How is LCA MK1A orders connected to Rafale ?

You vilify one of the best Air Chiefs this country has produced. Disgusted to see this here. Shame on you sir. Shame on you.

I will take some time off. Wish you all the very best.


In the other thread, he agreed to stop these negative posts.

Also, I would request you to *not* take time off. As a matter of fact, it is the fact that "the changed status quo", for the past six years, is often not shared by folks in the know/powers that be, which allows vested interests to shape perception and leading to the kind of cynicism seen above.

Your presence and occasional reply alone can do wonders in dispelling gloom and doom.

So kindly reconsider, and every time you see posts that cross the rhetorical line, let the admins know as versus having to step in yourself. There is a report post function (the exclamation mark) in the top right corner.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby chola » 12 Jan 2020 16:24

Dileep wrote:The best solution? A harsh sanction by USA and Russia, with China threatening with war. On the hartal day when the food outlets are closed, we cook!!

The second best solution? The govt coming out with a strict 'no import' policy.


Lol. We are perhaps the largest customer that can pick and choose from both the Amreeki and Russkie camps and Cheen's quality is derided as such that a few gold-plated imports from goras can balance their quantity.

We have made very poor use of our rivalry with Cheen. The PRC hadn't gone to war in decades and yet its global influence had grown by leaps and bounds during that time. War with those SYREs is unlikely to happen and our imports which while far superior to the local chini stuff, will never be put to good use because the crafty chinaman will never fight but will instead crowd us out of every arena like a herd of grass-eating buffalos with their MIC.

We should be matching Cheen with our own MIC. We should be making and buying the Tejas in large numbers, we should be mass producing and re-iterating the Kaveri even if the initial sample don't meet specs. The truth is war is not imminent and what we have now is good enough to allow our MIC to mature.

Cheen is a perfect foil as another Asian giant that we can race against. With the Tejas, MWF, TEDBF and AMCA we are starting to match the chini plethora of fighter types. The next step would be to match their engine programs. Maybe later on, their large planes programs. Each one of them with industrial foundations that can match chini production so we are not left with just prototypes and lab examples.

We'll produce in numbers and re-iterate getting better and better with each new mark and in larger and larger numbers as we race Cheen in air, sea and into space.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby karan_mc » 12 Jan 2020 19:27

Rakesh wrote:Click on the link below and read the entire thread. Gurus, kindly review for veracity...as a previous tweet of his was debunked on BRF.

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 4704114690 ---> Dr. Girsh S Deodhare, Director of the ADA has confirmed that India is working on the development of an Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (AGCAS) which is an aircraft software system to prevent crash of an aircraft if the pilot faces a g-induced loss of consciousness while flying.

Image


Dr. Girsh S Deodhare didn't talk about AGCAS like System it was misquoted by idrw.org in their article as usual spread like bush fire by childish defence analysts on Twitter . He talked about Ability to take control from ground in emergency.

That Twitter handle blocks people if they try to correct him and tell him to avoid copying trash but kid doesn't seems to understand

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 12 Jan 2020 19:33

deejay sir, I accept your warning (does not come good in English, hindi I would have said apki chetavani sar ankho par)...in fact I am making the apposite case (and all hypothetical), that 3-4 chief who have bypassed LCA for Rafale may have a better reason for that (if in fact it was bypassed - again hypothetical) and not corruption - that Rafale was the top dog in Ind/pak/china context, it can go against any fighter and come on top (all else being equal, pilot skill, Situational awareness). This capability was more desired than having 3-4 LCA per Rafale, LCA a good plane in its own right but does not provide us that ability against F-16 and J-XX and come on top; guranteed.
IAF in it's professional view would think that this is a better capability to have (the best fighter, than many not the best fighters). Other AF also follow similar lines, US went for F-22s when it can have built another 1000 F-15s!! F-22 in small numbers gives it unapparelled advantage than what 1000 of F-15s would.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Jan 2020 20:29

India to acquire 200 fighter jets for Air Force: Defence secretaryAir Force: Defence Secretary
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 214873.cms

TOI wont allow quotes but article talks about completing the Mk1A deal and proceeding with MMRCA 2.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2020 20:33

Indranil wrote:Kartik, you had asked a variety of questions earlier. I think one line can answer all of your questions.

All IOC Mk1s will be brought to FOC standard. They will be brought to Mk1A+ standard at MLU.

Two Questions --->

1) Will they likely order more than 83 Mk1As?

2) Can HAL continue production of the 83 MK1As as Mk1s and update them when the Mk1A is ready?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Jan 2020 20:43

Considering Mk1A and Mk1 are structurally similar, HAL can start production of Mk1A airframe in due course. Different subsystem (radar, EW system) shall be the longer lead time items.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2020 21:50

Left to me, I will sit down with HAL and say I will order 300 Mk1A to be delivered in 10 years. Kitna me doge.

I guarantee you it will be cheaper than this 200 fighter program (83+110) to acquire and to maintain. If the su-30s are used for long endurance and long range tasks, 300 Mk1A ms will be more effective than 190 fighters. No fighter, no matter how advanced can be at two places at the same time.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Jan 2020 22:16

The reason to keep dangling the carrot for Mk1a & the lack of subsequent orders for Mk1 is not just due to Rafale-love. I think the IAF realized that there is no money for many Rafales. It was for 110 MMRCA & I hazard a guess that its the Gripen that they're eyeing.

All the griping & moaning about falling squadron strength is to justify the 110 MMRCA purchase.

No Raksha Mantri has had the courage/sense to tell the IAF to take a hike & fulfill the MMRCA requirement via Tejas variants.

For whatever its worth, it might make sense to make a lot of noise & get the PM's attention on this. An article by the good folks on BRF on portals like Delhi Defense Review would help.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 12 Jan 2020 22:37

Indranil wrote:Left to me, I will sit down with HAL and say I will order 300 Mk1A to be delivered in 10 years. Kitna me doge.

I guarantee you it will be cheaper than this 200 fighter program (83+110) to acquire and to maintain. If the su-30s are used for long endurance and long range tasks, 300 Mk1A ms will be more effective than 190 fighters. No fighter, no matter how advanced can be at two places at the same time.


I disagree (and would shamelessly claim, IAF disagrees too). Yes one fighter cannot be at two places (no particle can, only waves do), but the one place it is, Rafale can ensure that it shoots down it's adversary 99% of the time and force a mission kill.

Lets take a scenario where TSPAF has launched two attacks, and we have 2 LCA to face them off or 1 Rafale to face off 1 attack. Let the opponent be AIM-120C equipped F-16. Rafale will be placed at the more strategic asset and it will guarantee shoot down the F-16 , the other will of course get through at other point where no one is stopping it. Both LCA have a fighting chance and can perhaps stop both or can be beaten at both the places, and both attack of adversary can succeed (or fail).

If I have to absolutely succeed in my strategic/tactical mission, Rafale is the way to go. Now TSP is as well hard pressed for planes, we still have the number advantage today (cannot say of tomorrow), even considering 2 front war. So most likely it will be at one place and not two, and we will have Rafale there. In Indo-TSP context, the two areas that will be hot (from Air war perspective) is - JK chicken neck/North Punjab and area south of Gujrat. TSPA/TSPAF most likely will focus in JK/Punjab sector with offensive capability and will do a defensive Air combat in all other sector (with occasional offense here and there in other sectors). In that one area, I would rather have 36 Rafale than 100 LCA, rest of the IAF will be holding off TSPAF elsewhere and perhaps squatting them.

But it is really not a choice between either 36/100 Rafale or 100/300 LCA (and thus my rant against whoever is responsible for this). We can have both, some reduced Rafale numbers (My take 60 is a good number, 10 more than M2K, good for 2 front war) and perhaps 200 LCA. It will give us the cheap desi low end fighter (it is really not low end) and the silver bullet. The thing is everything else is being blocked for this silver bullet.

If I can have a wish, if we had 36 F-35 instead of 36 Rafale (perhaps for the same cost, maybe cheaper), it would have been idle. We can never have F-22 (US wont sale), but it is selling F-35 to everyone (thank God not TSP so far). But since it is not available, Rafale is the next best thing.

It is within our capability now to mature LCA/MWF to Rafale level in some x years (x less than 10).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 12 Jan 2020 22:45

Prem Kumar wrote:The reason to keep dangling the carrot for Mk1a & the lack of subsequent orders for Mk1 is not just due to Rafale-love. I think the IAF realized that there is no money for many Rafales. It was for 110 MMRCA & I hazard a guess that its the Gripen that they're eyeing.



I hope not. Our LCAmk1a /MWF is not that far behind Gripen (it has two big advantages - it is there and ready plus it can fire Meteor). 114 Rafale I can understand (but where is the money?) but not 114 Gripen.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby VKumar » 13 Jan 2020 00:04

1 squadron of Rafale every year for next 6 years will suffice. The infrastructure and training facilities are already invested in. So also the India specific changes. Further squadrons will not be as expensive. Meanwhile LCA and it's derivatives can develop.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby RKumar » 13 Jan 2020 00:48

fanne wrote:I disagree (and would shamelessly claim, IAF disagrees too). Yes one fighter cannot be at two places (no particle can, only waves do), but the one place it is, Rafale can ensure that it shoots down it's adversary 99% of the time and force a mission kill.


Last time, I read wiki Su-30MKI it states

The Sukhoi Su-30MKI[a] (NATO reporting name: Flanker-H) is a twinjet multirole air superiority fighter developed by Russia's Sukhoi and built under license by India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force (IAF).



If we think Rafale is the only one who could protect our skies, then let's start decommissioning the mighty Su-30MKI. Since PM Modi signed the deal for Rafale, IAF is behaving like Su-30MKI is some useless junk. What happened to IAF claim of 70% availability and could secure good kill ration without even turning the radars. I hope the current IAF chief will request to withdraw MMRCA 2.0 circus. And spend energies to induct more indigenously developed defensive and offensive weapons as per our requirements.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 13 Jan 2020 02:27

IAF has not said anything about Su-30s. That's what forums and media houses are doing.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Jan 2020 02:41

If you equip the LCA with Meteor, then we are talking. To fight and win, you need both quality and quantity, but quality is more important then quantity. Because the adversary will always fear quality. TSP had never dared to attack Indian positions, had IAF had the Meteor missile.
We should learn from Kargil. PAF stayed away from the conflict, becase IAF had Quality.

I think it was a mistake not to purchase a handfull of F-16's from Unkil. Even having 36 of the F-16's would have put a hell of a fear in TSP. Becase they would know that IAF knows how to exploit the weaknesses.

I think IAF should offer to purchase Gripen if the sweeds join hands in developing the next fighter for IAF in India.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jan 2020 03:23

Rishi, that is what the exercises with the Singapore Air Force - among other nations - does for the IAF.

The IAF is confident enough to take on Block 50/52 F-16s and they do not need Rafale for that, the Rambha will do. The upgraded Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are also up to the task. There is no need for Gripen E, when the MWF is coming along.

Flying & fighting in the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’: A pilot interview
https://hushkit.net/2019/07/20/flying-f ... interview/

Q. What was your most memorable mission?

A. “Well there have been many over the years but a few that stand out are as follows: –

(a) DACT with F-16 Block 60* of Republic of Singapore Air Force
(*Ed: think these are actually Block 52)

The strongest adversary that we could possibly face in our life as a fighter pilot was the F-16 of PAF (for obvious reasons). So the excitement of facing an F-16, even in a mock combat was unbelievable. The weight of the mission was overbearing! Perhaps that’s what makes it special. As the combat commenced, we manoeuvred for our lives and in very little time the situation was in our favour! The desperate calls from the F-16, “Flare, Flare, Flare!” are very distinctly audible in my ears even today! From that day, the anxiety that prevailed over facing an F-16 in combat was gone forever…. Vanished! It was clear what the outcome would be!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 13 Jan 2020 04:08

Singapore operates 40 standard block 52 aircraft, and 20 twin seat advanced block 52 aircraft. I believe they've just kicked off a program to upgrade the 20 advanced block 52 to the "V" standard and perhaps may do the same for some of the 40 standard block 52's though the F-35 is expected to replace them starting sometime in the 2020's.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby fanne » 13 Jan 2020 04:15


If we think Rafale is the only one who could protect our skies, then let's start decommissioning the mighty Su-30MKI. Since PM Modi signed the deal for Rafale, IAF is behaving like Su-30MKI is some useless junk. What happened to IAF claim of 70% availability and could secure good kill ration without even turning the radars. I hope the current IAF chief will request to withdraw MMRCA 2.0 circus. And spend energies to induct more indigenously developed defensive and offensive weapons as per our requirements.


I would say, the current SU30MKI will kill more F-16s than F-16 can do it. In year say till 2010, the ratio would have been lopsided in favor of SU30MKI, the TSPAF F-16 was not upgraded, it had no BVR capability. Then in 2010 and onwards it acquired Block 52 F-16s and got it older lot upgraded to that standard. It also got 500 AIM -120. What did we do to our SU30MKI from 2010 to 2019? Nothing (except for making more of it and having Brahmos firing capability). In fact anything, things went downhill. R-77 got compromised, the lot that came to us from Russia was of suspect quality etc etc. The EW suite kept on giving trouble.

SU30MKI has humongous potential (same as the level of Rafale - and if we realize that potential, we will have nearly 300 pieces of it), it's current radar may still out range Rafale. But it needs some upgrades very fast. From A BVR that can out range AIM 120 C (astra), a EW package (We have a home grown effort, but these tech are always tough and successes are few and far in between), perhaps a new radar and anything that can reduce RCS. It can still defeat F-16 but we should turn it into something that can slaughter it in a one sided combat. If not for all 270, get for some 40-60 planes. I doubt we will have ever enough money to upgrade all to some new standard, we may upgrade some for air dominance, some for A/G (like Brahmos), yet some for F-18 Growler like roles, some for Maritime role (wet wings? and Brahmos).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 13 Jan 2020 04:25

The Boeing/USAF F-15E (and to some extent C) upgrade program is one of my favorite recent efforts anywhere to upgrade a large, and disparate fleet (different aircraft age and structural lives, and high to low tempo deployment cycles (active and ANG aircraft)). The nibbled at the problem and never attempted one giant upgrade program at the same time. The AESA radar upgrade is now nearly complete, fleet wide..and just towards the tail end they started AIM-120D integration and upgrading to the new mission computers (fastest in the world) and JHMCS II, and adding the new LWIR IRST solution. Just as the mission computers will be at full rate production, LRIP installs of the new GaN AESA EW/EA suites will start closing out the program (cockpit display upgrades may happen as well). This is a good approach to take with a large fleet that must simultaneously maintain high readiness and training needs while also getting overhauls. Most importantly, not all elements need to be ready all at once..or even in testing all at once. It allows you to spread the cost of upgrade over a larger time-frame so makes the entire thing more affordable.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Haridas » 13 Jan 2020 23:00

Outragious .... The raksha mantralaya IAS babu (baboons) . This year could mean anything under the sky CY FY . Doing a favour to the country.

Quote
Kumar said that the contract for the LCAs will be signed "definitely this year".



https://m.timesofindia.com/india/india-to-acquire-200-fighter-jets-for-air-force-defence-secy/amp_articleshow/73214873.cms

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 14 Jan 2020 02:22

Indranil wrote:Kartik, you had asked a variety of questions earlier. I think one line can answer all of your questions.

All IOC Mk1s will be brought to FOC standard. They will be brought to Mk1A+ standard at MLU.


So first they’ll be brought to FOC standard ? That would require a contract with HAL which hasn’t been signed as yet but could happen later.

And then they’ll be upgraded to Mk1A+ standard at MLU? That is at least 10-12 years away for the IOC fleet.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2020 02:43

I think the remark was in answer to a question.
The Secy could have been more careful with his words.

I don't think its bad.
The good thing is ~200 (83=110) a/c will be ordered.


lets not look for dungeons in castles in the air.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2020 02:43

The 110 import is the castle in the air.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 14 Jan 2020 02:47

Tejas Mk1A contract is to be signed during DefExpo in February. So basically within this year (March ending).

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 19 Jan 2020 15:20

There was a 'conference' by SIATI on Fri Sat at HAL Convention Centre. Got some gyan from the presentations.

1. HAL really upbeat about completing the production of FOC Mk1 by March 2021.

2. Two of the IOC Mk1s are about to be handed over to IAF in 'these days'. Four FOC to be handed over before FY closes.

3. They are going full steam ahead with Mk1A. Order signing is only a formality.

4. The presentation said the engine is "F404-GE-IN30" and the guy actually said IN30. I can't recall such a designation. Neither can't google uncle. Either the guy have no clue and repeated a typo made by the intern who typed in the ppt or we at BRF have no clue.

5. No 45 Daggers Sqn flew 2,500 operational hours and 3 aircraft completed the 250 hour servicing.

6. 311 "modifications" done concurrently in production.

7. 82 LRU suppliers for 344 types out of which 210 are indigenous.

8. High failure rate of 34 types LRUs which is still being worked on.

9. 3,084 Machined parts

10. 172 Rubber parts

11. 4,329 Sheet Metal parts

12. 1,106 Pipes

13. 10 Acrylic / Plastic parts

14. 427 Composite Parts

15. Capacity is 16 Aircraft/Year ---> Eight at LCA Division, four at Aircraft Division and four at our sourced suppliers (Alpha Tocol Engineering Services Pvt Ltd, TATA Advanced Materials Ltd, Larsen & Toubro and VEM Technologies Private Limited).

16. Six sets of jigs ---> four jigs at Tejas Division, one jig at Aircraft Division and one jig at sub-contractor site (front jig at Dynamatic Technologies Limited, rear jig at Alpha Tocol and mid jig at VEM Technologies Private Limited).

17. They reduced cycle times by adding sub-sub assembly jigs.

18. 43 types of jigs are required.

19. Jigs calibrated to 80 micron using a laser measurement system. That is quite fast. Full interchangeability achieved.

20. Present cycle time: 6 months per set. He outlined the plans to increase and reach the target of 16 sets.

21. 7,200 holes to be drilled per set of wing! They bought a robotic drilling machine that brought down the cycle time from 30 days/20 people to 10 days/2 people. Accuracy also improved. Better cleanliness since composite debris is vacuumed off by the robot.

22. 185 panels are made interchangeability compliant. Include 24 nos of daily inspection panels. Extensive tooling made for panels.

23. All pipe assemblies are made using jigs for full interchangeability and advanced sub assembly preparation.

Senior manager of HAL in a one-on-one meeting says "LCA can crash only if it runs out of fuel". We all touched the wooden table and made a silent prayer.

The TED BF picture is just that, "a picture that people didn't reject right away" during the brainstorming.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 19 Jan 2020 15:37

Has HAL tried to convince IAF to order more FOC version to fill up the prod gaps until MK1A comes?

I am still surprised, why nobody asks this question when the constant complaint about falling sqd numbers comes up.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kanson » 19 Jan 2020 17:00

Kartik wrote:
Kanson wrote:
It was designed to goto FOC standard directly. No IOC.
Those jets are made to "Production standard", that is FOC standard. This is i believe what he meant.

There are no intermediates, this is to reduce time.


I don't believe that. Every program progresses through phases and the IOC is a phase where 60-70% of what is required in the eventual platform, is flight tested and certified. Some features and software continue to be developed while the airframe, FCS and other software is ready. Basically to help in the production line getting started off rather than waiting till everything is developed and certified.

Of course, the rich experience gained with the Tejas Mk1 means that a lot of capabilities that took more time to be developed and certified will take less time. The flight testing will not be as long drawn as fewer test points will be checked out, but nevertheless, every thing still needs to be tested and certified.


Below video makes it crystal clear. Thought i should post this video after reading recent idrw article on this.
1. Those 4 prototypes are of production stds and no TDs.
2. First flight is by 2021 end or 22 beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1GDRGknd4Y


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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Kanson » 19 Jan 2020 17:06

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:Kartik, you had asked a variety of questions earlier. I think one line can answer all of your questions.

All IOC Mk1s will be brought to FOC standard. They will be brought to Mk1A+ standard at MLU.

Two Questions --->

1) Will they likely order more than 83 Mk1As?

2) Can HAL continue production of the 83 MK1As as Mk1s and update them when the Mk1A is ready?


Answer for Q1 is No. Only 83 Mk1As.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nam » 19 Jan 2020 17:10

ADA should consider integrating CFT on MK1/A. Would help in addressing the range issue..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 19 Jan 2020 17:11

Dileep wrote:There was a 'conference' by SIATI on Fri Sat at HAL Convention Centre. Got some gyan from the presentations.
....
The TED BF picture is just that, "a picture that people didn't reject right away" during the brainstorming.

Excellent update. Thanks Dileep saar. Good to see some of the points there. Some questions:

1. Why the 2 IOC jets held back for almost a year now..??
2. Excellent news on high utilisation at Sq 45. Any feedback on the MRO side from the first servicing..?? Things on expected lines or any big surprizes seen??
3. Have these concurrent changes been fed back (or there is a plan to do so) to the jets which did not have them to achieve full interchangeability or they are going to maintain multiple configurations throughout the live of the jets..?
4. Regarding supply from the subcontractors, what is the status on supply of subassy? So far I have seen only L&T supplied first wing set and one or two fuselage sub-assy expected to come in the production like from other vendors by March this year.
5. Any status update on the second line of LCA. You must already know where its getting built. I saw some tender indicating it may take 2 more years for it to come online fully. (Which is OK given there are no orders to make more jets any how and existing facilities seem adequate till Mk1A production starts full steam ahead). The whole complex looks as big as the existing LCA div.
6. I am guessing the line at Aircraft division will move there once it's done. The second line will totally have a production rate of 8/yr as per plan. The original LCA division line seems to have hit the full rate of 8/yr now. And the suppliers were planned to cater for another 8/yr, totally to 24/yr all in all. Thats the plan from what I have gathered from various reports and statements from HAL.
7. Any thing on the future of production technology on the future programs ..? We have seen jig-less manufacturing concept for MWF already in HAL tenders. Is that where HAL is moving for all future programs..? Jig less manufacturing needs a lot of changes in the ways components are designed and how various processes like drilling holes are done.


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