Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 10 Nov 2020 23:06

Read the tweets below. Take special note of the audience the Air Chief is addressing. Alas, some will never be happy.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1326 ... 48736?s=20 ---> Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria addressed the 5th Foreign Defence Attaches' conclave organised by http://BharatShakti.in on 'Enhancing Defence Capabilities through Cooperation' today.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1326 ... 45925?s=20 ---> Referring to LCA as the best in its class and a 'shining example' of indigenisation, the CAS brought home the success story of 'atmanirbharta' in IAF. Articulating induction plans for next 3 decades, CAS said the time was right for the desired inflection in aviation ecosystem.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1326 ... 49216?s=20 ---> Addressing the industry, CAS stated that IAF was 'very serious in its commitment to indigenisation' which was ' irreversible'. While the 'time for slogans is well past', the CAS said that 'all the stars were aligned' for the industry 'to rise and start the walk'.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2020 02:28

View of the twin seater Tejas cockpit

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 11 Nov 2020 04:12

Accolades galore! Only real orders missing!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 11 Nov 2020 14:39

Vivek K wrote:Really? Pray enlighten us what the “planners” options would be besides dhoti shivering?


Here is your enlightenment Vivek

https://idrw.org/lca-tejass-american-f4 ... serves-it/

General Electric had supplied India, 8 baseline F404 engines in the mid-’90s but Pokhran-II Nuclear tests in 1998 by India ensured that American military sanctions followed soon and supply of spares and services were suspended by GE on orders from US Government . 8 engines supplied by GE to India remained operational and Indian engineers regularly carried out periodic inspections and service of the engines and also carried out engine runs in-ground test-beds to keep them ready in anticipation of the first flight of the LCA-Tejas which happened in 2001. By the time American military sanctions were lifted off India. GE engineers on a visit to India found 4-5 engines still in airworthy conditions and stringent service intervals and proper following of the service manuals by Indian engineers ensured that over 50% of them remain active while one was out of service due to core damage and other two had been cannibalized for spares.


Similarly Pakistani P&W engines for F-16s remained operational after 1998 sanctions

Iranian F-14s are still operational.

Please save the link and dont ask this question after a few days.

We usually order more engines than airframes precisely for this reason. Just for TD's we ordered 8 engines.

And US engines have TBO and overall life 2x to 4x compared to others.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 11 Nov 2020 14:52

Barath wrote:
nachiket wrote:The Mk1A order is pending with the MoD. It is up to them to allocate funds and sign a contract with HAL. They either don't have the money or it is some typical bureaucratic nonsense holding things up.


A small nuance. The DAC, which is essentially the MoD has approved it.

It is pending with the CCS. Ignoring the MoD and Foreign affairs, it's essentially the prime minister and the treasury.

Conclusion same as yours..

Correct. DAC approval given 18th March 2020. So nothing is pending on either IAF or MoD. CCS approval is pending.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIf8mePag ... ID=1606941

While orders of 40 Tejas aircraft had been placed with HAL in initial configurations, DAC paved the way for procurement of 83 of the more advanced Mk1A version of the aircraft from HAL by finalising the contractual and other issues. The proposal will now be placed for consideration of Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).


Now who all here are willing to call Shri Narendra Damodardas Modi "Anti National" for delay in CCS approval from March 2020 to November 2020 :rotfl:

A more plausible reason I speculated earlier is that Finance Ministry and CCS wants mass production standardized before placing the larger orders.

Finance Ministry has already paid for the jigs and production equipment earlier and wants to see the earlier funds fully utilized before putting in additional money.

As anyone who has either worked in large projects or managed them would know, funding is ALWAYS milestone based rather than ALL UPFRONT.

And this is a standard practice, whether Govt or Private Sector.

Given the way things work, I strongly speculate the moment fully ICY Tejas flies, CCS will give its approval.
-------------------------

Mod note: Do not use large font sizes and ALL CAPS in your posts as de jure. Its not only rude per normal etiquette as you well know and also messes up the page alignment for those attempting to scroll and read the posts. You can use bold and underline instead. The large font size and ALL CAPS have been edited.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Tanaji » 11 Nov 2020 21:35

This is more of the same. Nowhere has an official report been published that orders are held up because of ICY, so please stop projecting. Furthermore you don’t seem to understand the difference between standardisation and continuous improvement: HAL clearly is making standardised components.

Could it actually be that GoI has no money? Perhaps there might be unforeseen circumstances with the economy... you know like a pandemic or something that has resulted in massively reduced tax receipts? Nah.. it’s “ICY”..

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2020 22:08

tsarkar wrote:A more plausible reason I speculated earlier is that Finance Ministry and CCS wants mass production standardized before placing the larger orders.

Finance Ministry has already paid for the jigs and production equipment earlier and wants to see the earlier funds fully utilized before putting in additional money.

As anyone who has either worked in large projects or managed them would know, funding is ALWAYS milestone based rather than ALL UPFRONT.

And this is a standard practice, whether Govt or Private Sector.

Given the way things work, I strongly speculate the moment fully ICY Tejas flies, CCS will give its approval.

Since you have no evidence and have not countered *ANY* of the articles that KaranM has posted, you are now just spewing verbal diarrhea.

You are just harping on a term that yourself have no clue about. One more post from you on this issue and I will give you a lifetime ban.

Go ahead and push your luck. And nobody will care if you are no longer here. I am quite tired of reading your pompous and patronizing posts. Please go do it elsewhere. This is your FIRST and LAST warning.

And please spare us all (especially me), by responding to this post. Nobody cares what you have to say.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Nov 2020 22:47

Tanaji wrote:This is more of the same. Nowhere has an official report been published that orders are held up because of ICY, so please stop projecting. Furthermore you don’t seem to understand the difference between standardisation and continuous improvement: HAL clearly is making standardised components.

Could it actually be that GoI has no money? Perhaps there might be unforeseen circumstances with the economy... you know like a pandemic or something that has resulted in massively reduced tax receipts? Nah.. it’s “ICY”..


Yet monies and budgets exist for foreign orders placed after the pandemic in response to the PLA invasion of India. Why can't the Tejas be ordered on an emergency basis in significant numbers? This would actually be an economic stimulus as much of the work of manufacturing the Tejas would be in India. Some $10 billion should have been allocated for 200 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A between 2020-2024.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2020 23:02

Mort, if you are referring to the 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s that have been ordered, they are expected to arrive only by 2023. If the balloon goes up tomorrow and war ends in a week or two, what are 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s going to do?

Ordering aircraft in emergency numbers - phoren or domestic - is pointless, if it is going to follow the standard timelines i.e. delivery of first batch in three years from contract signature. This same line of argument was used in the SE fighter contest and the reasoning was the Lockheed Martin can deliver F-16s at a much quicker rate than Saab can do with the Gripen.

The question then arises is does the IAF have a qualified pool of pilots to man these aircraft that are coming in huge numbers? Unfortunately for the "emergency basis" argument, IAF pilots have to be qualified on a platform before they can operationally exploit the platform. You cannot put a Su-30MKI pilot into a Mirage 2000 (a plane he has never flown) and tell him to go fight. That is how the first Su-30MKI fatality occurred, with the death of Wing Commander PS Nara. Neither can you put a Rafale pilot into a Tejas and tell him to do the same. There is a syllabus that has to be completed and that takes time. And that syllabus is a lot longer than one or two weeks.

So if the balloon goes up tomorrow and war ends in a week or two, the IAF will fight with whatever platforms it has. There is no way around that. No houdini, no rubbing the magic lamp and no rapid induction of fighters is going to change that fact. What should be done is place the order for the 83 Mk1As in Dec 2020, as planned. No point whining about the past, when we have the power to control the future.

By the way, the CDS and even the Air Chief, has said that the 114 MRFA deal (assuming it goes through) is expected to be inducted at the rate of 13 - 14 aircraft per year. And Air HQ reportedly wants the Tejas at an induction rate of 20 aircraft per year. The argument put forth by the CDS on the MRFA is budgetary constraints and also a quicker induction means more aircraft will be out of commission during regular maintenance and refits.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Picklu » 11 Nov 2020 23:45

Today, a production linked incentive of 27 Billion has been declared for 10 sectors of economy. There has been increased central support to food distribution, MNREGA, multiple rounds of Direct Cash Transfer to Jan Dhan Accounts. All these money has to come from somewhere.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 12 Nov 2020 00:40

tsarkar wrote:Here is your enlightenment Vivek

Thank you Dadamuni!

.. GE engineers on a visit to India found 4-5 engines still in airworthy conditions and stringent service intervals and proper following of the service manuals by Indian engineers ensured that over 50% of them remain active while one was out of service due to core damage and other two had been cannibalized for spares.


Similarly Pakistani P&W engines for F-16s remained operational after 1998 sanctions

Iranian F-14s are still operational.

Please save the link and dont ask this question after a few days.

We usually order more engines than airframes precisely for this reason. Just for TD's we ordered 8 engines.

And US engines have TBO and overall life 2x to 4x compared to others.



So let me ask your enlightenment or indulgence - with the current lot of GE engines, how many more LCAs can be built? Or will they wait for airframes to die before re-using those for new airframes?

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2020 00:46

I visit this thread after like a month and we are still stuck at that ICY thinggy. Seriously..?? Phew.!! I'll give you gentlemen two words - "Configuration Management". Now I hope we can put an end to the bizarre theory on how ICY is holding orders for Mk1A to rest.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 12 Nov 2020 00:49

Rakesh wrote:Mort, if you are referring to the 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s that have been ordered, they are expected to arrive only by 2023. If the balloon goes up tomorrow and war ends in a week or two, what are 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s going to do?

So then what is the point for emergency decision making? It seems that the forces have failed to plan for contingencies like war!


... IAF pilots have to be qualified on a platform before they can operationally exploit the platform. You cannot put a Su-30MKI pilot into a Mirage 2000 (a plane he has never flown) and tell him to go fight. That is how the first Su-30MKI fatality occurred, with the death of Wing Commander PS Nara. Neither can you put a Rafale pilot into a Tejas and tell him to do the same. There is a syllabus that has to be completed and that takes time. And that syllabus is a lot longer than one or two weeks.

So this goes against the large number of aircraft types in IAF's inventory - it not only increases the cost of maintaining spares but also of type certified pilots as well. Can you provide details of the WingCo Nara's story?

So if the balloon goes up tomorrow and war ends in a week or two, the IAF will fight with whatever platforms it has. There is no way around that. No houdini, no rubbing the magic lamp and no rapid induction of fighters is going to change that fact. What should be done is place the order for the 83 Mk1As in Dec 2020, as planned. No point whining about the past, when we have the power to control the future.

Admiral sir, sorry to be always in opposition saar! The time for emergency purchase was in March! December is unfortunate and delayed.

At the end of the day our point of contention remains - we believe that imports of full systems is not in the national interest. Rather, we should be looking at buying techs that can be mated to domestic systems. But that difference will remain saar!

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 12 Nov 2020 00:57

Vivek K wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Mort, if you are referring to the 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s that have been ordered, they are expected to arrive only by 2023. If the balloon goes up tomorrow and war ends in a week or two, what are 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30s going to do?

So then what is the point for emergency decision making? It seems that the forces have failed to plan for contingencies like war!

It was never a emergency decision, buying those jets. They were in process for a while. Idiots in MSM tried to paint it as some emergency response. A lot of backlog is getting cleared using the excuse of Warlike situation, by pushing the files thru the redtape, thats all.

The failure of planning for War is a collective one. All stakeholders are responsible, but MoD is more responsible than anyone else.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2020 01:31

Vivek K wrote:So then what is the point for emergency decision making? It seems that the forces have failed to plan for contingencies like war!

JayS has already answered this question. But to summarize, it is NOT an emergency purchase.

Vivek K wrote:So this goes against the large number of aircraft types in IAF's inventory - it not only increases the cost of maintaining spares but also of type certified pilots as well. Can you provide details of the WingCo Nara's story?

Sukhoi crash: wrong pilot in right plane
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/su ... YNbcP.html
01 May 2009

Read the entire article. Pilots have to be qualified on a plane to operate it. It is not like hopping from one bicycle onto another. It is not just about the flying the plane (even though there are significant differences that have to be mastered), but also operating the various systems. The interface, the sensors, the radar, the weapons...everything is different. Everything has to be learnt. Now you can have a qualified MiG-21 pilot and a qualified Su-30MKI pilot. Good example would be Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, VrC.

But you cannot ask Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman (who has likely never flown a Jaguar) and tell him, "Ok, now go conduct a deep penetration strike mission in a Jaguar." It does not work that way. The WingCo has to learn everything about the Jaguar, her strengths and her weaknesses. And only after earning qualification on the Jaguar, can he be sent on an operational mission. And in the WingCo's case, he did not fly for almost six months after his ejection from the MiG-21 Bison in Feb 2019. Without medical clearance, if he flew again and ejected, he would likely never walk again. There is a valid and set process for everything in the IAF and that process takes time.

Vivek K wrote:Admiral sir, sorry to be always in opposition saar! The time for emergency purchase was in March! December is unfortunate and delayed.

The 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs are not an emergency purchase as JayS explained. You are mistaken. Unable to reply to this part of your post above, as your assumption is incorrect.

Vivek K wrote:At the end of the day our point of contention remains - we believe that imports of full systems is not in the national interest. Rather, we should be looking at buying techs that can be mated to domestic systems. But that difference will remain saar!

Most OEMs will not permit you to mate their tech with domestic systems. You are buying the entire platform and all the associated equipment with it. No two ways around that.

Ask LM or Boeing if the IAF can integrate the Astra BVRAAM with the F-21 or F-18 or F-15EX? Or how about integrating BrahMos-A with P-8I Neptune of F-21, F-18 or F-15EX? Let me know what answer you get.

Integration of Su-30MKI with Astra was possible, because of a variety of reasons...both geopolitical and technical.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 12 Nov 2020 03:09

---POST DELETED---
Last edited by Rakesh on 12 Nov 2020 03:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ---POST DELETED---

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2020 03:16

Tsarkar: You have now earned a permanent ban. Goodbye.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 12 Nov 2020 04:04

Tanaji wrote:This is more of the same. Nowhere has an official report been published that orders are held up because of ICY, so please stop projecting. Furthermore you don’t seem to understand the difference between standardisation and continuous improvement: HAL clearly is making standardised components.

Could it actually be that GoI has no money? Perhaps there might be unforeseen circumstances with the economy... you know like a pandemic or something that has resulted in massively reduced tax receipts? Nah.. it’s “ICY”..


Yes, it is the last issue unfortunately. But the positive thing is we are seeing a strong recovery.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 12 Nov 2020 04:07

Rakesh wrote:
Vivek K wrote:So then what is the point for emergency decision making? It seems that the forces have failed to plan for contingencies like war!

JayS has already answered this question. But to summarize, it is NOT an emergency purchase.

Vivek K wrote:Admiral sir, sorry to be always in opposition saar! The time for emergency purchase was in March! December is unfortunate and delayed.

The 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su-30MKIs are not an emergency purchase as JayS explained. You are mistaken. Unable to reply to this part of your post above, as your assumption is incorrect.

Vivek K wrote:At the end of the day our point of contention remains - we believe that imports of full systems is not in the national interest. Rather, we should be looking at buying techs that can be mated to domestic systems. But that difference will remain saar!

Most OEMs will not permit you to mate their tech with domestic systems. You are buying the entire platform and all the associated equipment with it. No two ways around that.

Ask LM or Boeing if the IAF can integrate the Astra BVRAAM with the F-21 or F-18 or F-15EX? Or how about integrating BrahMos-A with P-8I Neptune of F-21, F-18 or F-15EX? Let me know what answer you get.

Integration of Su-30MKI with Astra was possible, because of a variety of reasons...both geopolitical and technical.


Great post - we just need to check the ISE and how we paid through the nose for adding some extra kit. Integrating 3rd party kit on our OEM supplied aircraft has always been much harder than it appears from outside. The LCA is a revelation in that sense itself, all this useless speculation about ICY apart.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 13 Nov 2020 02:25

Karan M wrote:
Tanaji wrote:This is more of the same. Nowhere has an official report been published that orders are held up because of ICY, so please stop projecting. Furthermore you don’t seem to understand the difference between standardisation and continuous improvement: HAL clearly is making standardised components.

Could it actually be that GoI has no money? Perhaps there might be unforeseen circumstances with the economy... you know like a pandemic or something that has resulted in massively reduced tax receipts? Nah.. it’s “ICY”..


Yes, it is the last issue unfortunately. But the positive thing is we are seeing a strong recovery.

This has been my pet peeve for a while. Spending government money on locally produced products is actually an excellent way to get yourself out of a historic recession like this. Placing orders for indigenous products like the LCA, LCH, LUH, WhAP, ATAGS etc. will enable HAL and other govt. production agencies to pay their local vendors and get their factories running again and perhaps hiring more people. The government will have to borrow more to do this but that is a valid strategy at this point because that money is going to directly produce economic activity in the country.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 13 Nov 2020 04:07

Post edited. Request you temper the language and maintain thread discipline.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2020 04:10

All OT posts not related to the LC Mk1/Mk1A will be deleted.

Moderator decisions are final and represent the Moderator team.

Decisions are taken not merely based on one off incidents but a long pattern of poster behavior. Please don't add to Mod burden by engaging in further OT discussions. Thanks.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2020 04:15

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Yes, it is the last issue unfortunately. But the positive thing is we are seeing a strong recovery.

This has been my pet peeve for a while. Spending government money on locally produced products is actually an excellent way to get yourself out of a historic recession like this. Placing orders for indigenous products like the LCA, LCH, LUH, WhAP, ATAGS etc. will enable HAL and other govt. production agencies to pay their local vendors and get their factories running again and perhaps hiring more people. The government will have to borrow more to do this but that is a valid strategy at this point because that money is going to directly produce economic activity in the country.


This boils down to the entire discussion on fiscal capacity. Not sure which thread is best suited for this discussion though. Perhaps the strat and political thread. For the record I agree with all of your points.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 13 Nov 2020 04:16

Karan M wrote:All OT posts not related to the LC Mk1/Mk1A will be deleted.

Moderator decisions are final and have the support of the entire Moderator team.

Decisions are taken not merely based on one off incidents but a long pattern of poster behavior. Please don't add to Mod burden by engaging in further OT discussions. Thanks.


Karan, as I remarked to Rakesh, removing posts is your prerogative. It has been an honour following your inputs through these years.

As for language, I was being polite and to the point. With due respect think through the feedback that I gave.

Over and out.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2020 04:22

Ashutosh sir, thank you for your kind words. Its a privilege to be able to contribute to BR and I am glad you found it useful.

With regards to to the deletion, your second post was not polite. Which is why I edited it. With the courtesy granted to productive members, posts are deleted as versus willy nilly handing out warnings.

I'd request all those who get upset posts are deleted consider what that means. It means some mod someplace is attempting to maintain thread discipline and also applying a soft touch in that he prefers not to censure but just nudge.

With regards to moderation decisions, all I can say is enough rope is given and then some to individuals to change their behavior and engage in collegial discussions. But there is a limit and a moderator had to exercise his discretion. Please respect that and attempt to understand it.

Also while some other posts may not be up to the quality we all wish for, the purpose of BR has always been to ensure enough newcomers participate so that they in turn learn and pass on the details. So we wait and watch.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2020 04:25

Moderator note: No further discussion on moderator decisions is warranted or asked for. Please focus on the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby jamwal » 13 Nov 2020 18:32

Nothing new in article, but good to see such facts becoming widely known

https://www.thebetterindia.com/87665/te ... na-odisha/

Despite US Sanctions, This Aerospace Engineer from Odisha Gave India Its First LCA – Tejas

Image

In 1984, the government appointed the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to handle the LCA programme along with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and other institutions. At that time, V.S. Arunachalam was the scientific adviser to the defence minister. A former scientist at Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), he, in turn, chose a young design engineer from Odisha as the director of India’s fledgeling indigenous aircraft programme.


The next step was to identify companies that could produce the components. Furth India, a small Nagpur company, produced the steel while another small outfit in Kanpur made rubber seals used to close the fuel tank. Gradually, ADA developed all the electrical components that were earlier imported and helped local companies manufacture them. To make production commercially viable, the rights to the intellectual property were handed over to the companies.

For the design, the team chose a compound tail-less delta wing configuration, different from other aircraft of this class. Advanced features like Relaxed Static Stability were added to enhance manoeuvrability. Cutting-edge digital technology was used to design the cockpit’s system, the utility system and the weapon management system. All these core technologies were designed, developed and built in India itself.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 16 Nov 2020 22:01

Rakesh wrote:But you cannot ask Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman (who has likely never flown a Jaguar) and tell him, "Ok, now go conduct a deep penetration strike mission in a Jaguar." It does not work that way. The WingCo has to learn everything about the Jaguar, her strengths and her weaknesses. And only after earning qualification on the Jaguar, can he be sent on an operational mission. And in the WingCo's case, he did not fly for almost six months after his ejection from the MiG-21 Bison in Feb 2019. Without medical clearance, if he flew again and ejected, he would likely never walk again. There is a valid and set process for everything in the IAF and that process takes time.

Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia (Retd), a former Mirage 2000 pilot, illustrates the point above....listen from 4:00 onwards in the video.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 75264?s=20 ---> Air Marshal (Retd) PS Ahluwalia on the difference between Rafale and Mirage-2000 in terms of capabilities.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Roop » 17 Nov 2020 07:58

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 75264?s=20 ---> Air Marshal (Retd) PS Ahluwalia on the difference between Rafale and Mirage-2000 in terms of capabilities.


An excellent little video, but I would say the gist of it was not the difference between Mirage 2000 and Rafale, but between the French products (M2K / Rafale) on the one hand and "other" :) i.e. Russian maal on the other.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 17 Nov 2020 09:56

It is very disconcerting that when it comes to FOC a/c, it seems to take literally months for first flight after being ready for first flight 'in a week'. I am not sure such a situation existed even for later TDs. It is understandable perhaps with FOC-1, a bit for the 2nd, but for the 3rd a/c..., it is becoming a routine. Hope we get to see faster inductions as we did for IOCs. Hope we'll see the first flight this week.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 19 Nov 2020 01:58

SP 23 and 24 to take to the air shortly. Others to follow in quick succession. They were taking some steps so that the availability and maintainability of the aircrafts increase significantly. That's the hold up. Not the production rate.

Meanwhile the SPJ pod is getting ready for manufacturing. 8 prototypes to be built first.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 19 Nov 2020 02:02

Indranil do you have the RFP/tender documents link? Just find it surprising they are focusing on the LCA SPJ over that of the Su30s unless this is the Su30s dual SPJ configuration moved from a wingtip position to a single underwing one.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 19 Nov 2020 02:25

Karan M wrote:Just find it surprising they are focusing on the LCA SPJ over that of the Su30s unless this is the Su30s dual SPJ configuration moved from a wingtip position to a single underwing one.

The Su-30 at least has the SAP-518 to use even if suboptimal. The Tejas has nothing since the EL/M-8222 never got integrated.

Having said that this is probably for the Su-30 anyway. There was an article about this a couple of years back in LiveFist which mentioned that the pod was for the Su-30 and was essential due to the various drawbacks of the SAP-518.

My question about this, which I asked Indranil on Twitter as well :mrgreen: , is does this have a "receive" component as well? Or does it communicate effectively with the aircraft's RWR to detect and classify radar sources? The SAP-518 relies on the receive pod on one wingtip and the transmitter on the other, bypassing the RWR entirely from what I can understand. Does not seem like the best way to go about it and duplicating sensors in the process while adding weight and using up one more hardpoint.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 19 Nov 2020 02:46

The El/L 8222 is likely headed for the Tejas as well. Makes little sense to have two pods for Mk1/Mk1A unless it has to do with radar ie Uttam integration planned for the Mk1.

Most SPJs have a receive component. And so will this. The 16 element ATRU - the R in that refers to the Receive. A 32 element unit is designed for as well. My understanding was that would be suitable for the Su30 but we'll have to wait and see.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzsviG1UYAA ... =4096x4096

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... Q&usqp=CAU

The pod listens, emits, listens, emits. The SAP-518's wide pod separation allows for specific jamming techniques as well. Its not merely a matter of separating the Receive from the Transmit pods. Also an entire pod (of the two) being dedicated for the Transmit chain is a big deal given the size of the pod and as such how powerful the system is. Its high power accounts for its effectiveness even against high power FCR. The drawback is its weight which limits the aircrafts maneuvering in WVR type high G maneuvers but then this is an issue faced by all aircraft carrying similar pods or munitions of similar size. The other issue is the SPJ can't be auto triggered by the Indian RWR and has to be operated manually by the WSO. This can be managed by the 2 seat IAF crew but an automated system would be preferable especially in highly intensive activities such as those wherein the WSO and pilot are both saturated. This large design is a function if how the Russians think of the system. By denying the opponent any BVR capability head on, its a fair trade for them. The IAF wants to retain both BVR and WVR capability without any compromise.

In short its a very capable system but given the Su30s are our preeminent strike fleet, with the Rafale but a tiny percentage of the overall numbers, we need to get pods for the Su30 which are more easy to use and more importantly can be carried around the clock by the IAF, as versus reserving their usage for specific mission specific roles.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby jamwal » 20 Nov 2020 17:16

Image

Image

Pictures are from 2012. Has this computer been upgraded yet? Seems much bigger and heavier than it should be.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 20 Nov 2020 18:15

Its a quadruplex redundant FBW computer. Of course it will be larger than a simplified single channel FCS, in effect its 4 redundant FBW channels in one LRU. You can see the 4 discrete physical computers when you look at it from the side. Each is a FBW control system in its own right. The computers share data at 2MBPS with 512 parameters shared. The same FCS software runs at the same in all 4 channels, so 4 channel redundancy is achieved with the defective channel dropped. Having said that, technology advances and so there is a plan to make a DFCC Mk2 which is likely to be fielded on Mk1A with newer processors and will likely be more compact than this unit. However, the focus is always on reliability as versus using the latest processors etc. The DFCC has to run for at least 1000 hours considering MTBF and has achieved 5235 hours in tests.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 20 Nov 2020 19:55

Mk2 will have a new dfcc. That will be utilised for the Mk1A.
More details - http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/11/2 ... rogrammes/

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby KSingh » 23 Nov 2020 00:00

Dreams of TEDBF(+ORCA), AMCA, MWF/LCA MK.2 are becoming ever more elusive with HAL seemingly unable to deliver 20 FOC jets in a timely manner and the 83 MK1A order totally elusive


I’ve been an ardent defender of HAL and had been waiting for their promises of 12-16/yr to become a reality but their inability to bounce back after COVID and ever new excuses has left me deeply unimpressed. And this isn’t unique to HAL, ISRO have only just managed to send something into space after being totally MIA for most of 2020. Meanwhile Boeing, SpaceX etc all bounced back within weeks and overcame.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 23 Nov 2020 05:53

Keep the faith KS. IR says the birds are about to pop out. Some changes have been effected. We need to see a pvt manufacturing entity to take over from HAL. There is no alternative to domestic MIC - even if it is bad, But remember the long delay in the receipt of the first MKI after 100% payment. The FOC bird will rock like the MKI. Keep the faith a little longer.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 23 Nov 2020 09:43

Astra air combat missile to be soon tested from Tejas fighter
India’s first indigenous air-to-air missile Astra will soon be tested from the first home-grown fighter Tejas, in yet another major step towards making the weapon the mainstay of the country’s combat fleet against hostile jets in the years ahead. The integration of the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), which flies over four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5, on the Tejas and the “initial ground trials” are virtually complete now. “The flight trials of the indigenous missile on the indigenous fighter will begin within the next few months,” said a source on Thursday.
...
DRDO also plans to begin testing the Mark-2 version of Astra, with a range of 160-km, in the first half of next year. Plans are concurrently underway for a 350-km range Astra Mark-3 as well, said the sources.


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