Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1687
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 26 Feb 2019 20:54

Tweets by Vishnu got me thinking. Are 15 year old non-upgraded M2Ks better than MiG-29UPG? Just curious as to why IAF did not choose 29UPG for strike?

My thinking is that it is probably not that 29UPG is a bad aircraft but Russian munitions aren't as potent or reliable as it is claimed. I don't think we have come a long way in integrating either Israeli or Desi weapons on the 29UPG yet and until that happens, 29UPG platform may not be the first choice for IAF. I do believe it is a potent platform and will perform fine but probably get bested by M2K in many areas and hence first choice of IAF.

Also are most of current 29s of IAF upgraded to UPG config? In my quick search, could not find delivery schedule of 29UPG. Also, I think the upgrades are being carried out locally by IAF BRDs IIRC.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2019 21:37

Zynda, please dont get concerned. They needed heavy bombs with max standoff SPICE 2000 fits the bill. So 6 Mirages with SPICE2000, another 6 with A2A loads. The MiG29 UPG qre integrated with shorter range PGMs, Kh-2/3x class. Other options would have been Su-30MKIs with Kh-59. But from the report, they tricked the Pakis, created Valhalla of Su-30s with Mirages, broke the Mirages away for a quick strike with the Su-30s likely nearby and loaded for A2A to backup the Mirage. As to why Mirages over Su-30s, I suspect they flew low once they split from the swarm, and did a popup strike at border. The Mirage 2000s are more discreet, single engined, platforms than Su-30, plus non upgraded Mirage 2000z have been used in 1999. Their radar, RF emissions signature etc is known to TSP. We would prefer to keep our Su-30s "silent", RF capabilities wise as long as possible.

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1687
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Zynda » 26 Feb 2019 21:44

^^Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Feb 2019 04:35

In addition to what Karan said, we have to remember that the ground-attack capability of the Mig-29's is completely new with the recent upgrade. IAF has very little experience in employing it unlike the M2k's which have been battle tested in a strike role in Kargil itself. For a one off strike like this it is better to use the tried and tested platform for maximum success probability. If there is a full scale war tomorrow, then the IAF may use the Mig-29's for ground-attack too since the Mirages and other ground-attack assets may not be available everywhere. But the primary role of the Mig-29 will continue to be air-defence and escort duties which it excels at.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 27 Feb 2019 05:53

or simply what in spite of what appears on paper (where Mig 29 is evenly match to Mirage 2000), maybe Mirage 2000 is way better. Who would know - ask IAF, it has 35+ years experience in both and time after time it has chosen Mirage 2000 over Mig 29 for fighting war (Flying over Sri Lanka during LTTE crises, Maldives, Kargin and now Balakot). What more evidence is needed. Perhaps that's what justifies 3 times costly Rafale over SU30MKI. Maybe it is the package and the weaponry...whatever it is, it is making all the difference

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Feb 2019 06:07

fanne, the main drawback in using the Mig-29 anywhere whether it was over Kargil or Sri Lanka was its limited endurance. Even so, it was used in Kargil to escort the Mirage and Jaguar strike packages. But they could not accompany the other jets for too long without having to turn back for lack of fuel. The upgrade fixes that problem with the conformal fuel tank in the spine.

As for its capability, it was (and probably still is) the best dogfighter in the IAF bar none. There was an old detailed article by AM Harish Masand about a Mig-29 vs M2k exercise the IAF had performed where it proved its superiority in close-air combat. But before the upgrade, there were no other missions it could perform, unlike the Mirages which proved their versatility in Kargil. It is primarily for this reason that the IAF loves the M2k so much. No other aircraft except the MKI offers them so much flexibility and the M2k does it in a much smaller (and cheaper to operate) form factor and is extremely reliable to boot.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby fanne » 27 Feb 2019 07:04

short range of Mig 29 (as in past) was not a M2k problem. I think within the covers where M2K scores (speculation alert)
1. Reliability (as you mentioned) with machine. With over 90% availability, training, mission planning etc. all gets better.
2.Relability with armament (the AA will work every time, even if it has a lesser range/lesser agility than it's Russian counterpart)
3.EW (that is fully integrated with all systems on board and works fine, not in fit and start) + I suspect that has been continuously upgraded to be more lethal (money worth spent with the French, even if it was 20 times costlier than what is there on other plane, it gets the work done beautifully, something TSPAF cannot counter)
4.Versatility and adaptability - Any new smart AG munition bought was successfully integrated with M2K and used (I think we have succeeded here with other IAF planes as well)
5. In the end even if 2-3 times more costly, it was/will be used 2-3 more times/2-3 more use cases over other compared planes.

Ps - Guys I do not want to carry this discussion. When you show down Mig 29 or any other plane, they are our plane. My last on this

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9968
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby sum » 27 Feb 2019 08:20

Why were the jags not employed if they are meant specifically for such a fast/low/nap of earth flying , bombing and return missions?
I guess jags also have been integrated with pretty decent standoff weapons?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Feb 2019 08:48

sum wrote:Why were the jags not employed if they are meant specifically for such a fast/low/nap of earth flying , bombing and return missions?
I guess jags also have been integrated with pretty decent standoff weapons?


I believe that it was because M2k can defend itself with MICA and beat a hasty retreat if required in the eventuality of Pakistaniyat hits the fan moment. M2K gets more done in smaller numbers which was necessary for this type of incursion .

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nachiket » 27 Feb 2019 08:51

Thakur_B wrote:I believe that it was because M2k can defend itself with MICA and beat a hasty retreat if required in the eventuality of Pakistaniyat hits the fan moment. M2K gets more done in smaller numbers which was necessary for this type of incursion .

Super 530D and Magic II sir not MICA. These were non-upgraded Mirages.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Feb 2019 11:45

May be they just tossed a coin to decide between the Jags and Mirages or the SUs.
Or the DGMO equivalent in the Air HQ is a former Mirage pilot.
Not sure this adds to the discussion....

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20177
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2019 16:46

For a long time M2Ks have been tasked with the major strike role.Jags for strike in support of the ground offensive.The M2Ks carry better self defence capability plus AAMs.Jags have only 2 overwing SR AAMs.
The MIG-29s are superb combat fighters, plus upgrades have improved it considerably.MKIs used because of their range, endurance, radar and huge no. of AAMs carried.

If a Bison as we've said shot down an F-16, it's a great achievement.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4373
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 27 Feb 2019 18:08

For all those who are wondering why not Su30, why not Jags and so on (that includes me too of coarse). Lets have some faith in IAF. They know which options are best (considering all tactical constraint and strategic objectives like keeping Su30 under wraps). And in such strikes you always would like to use the absolute best options and overwhelming forces so as to minimize chances of failure and own damage. Definitely we should discuss and try to understand the choices IAF makes, but our bottomline should be that we trust IAF would have made a well informed decision.

Similarly for some who are saying what were MiG21s doing at LoC. It is still one of the primary frontline Point Defense fighter.

Just sayin...

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4373
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 27 Feb 2019 18:11

One thing. M2K are still the Gold standard for IAF. And our RnD folks are on a mission to better it with MWF. Tejas MK1 is already superior in some respects. All in all, IAF will be very happy and effective with 200 MWFs.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20177
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2019 18:32

We must expect casualties in war.As a famous general said, all plans change once initial contact is made with the enemy.What the GOI must decide is what is our primary objective/ goal in this crisis? That is the fundamental Q to be answered as I am utterlt sceptical of Pak reducing its terror attacks.In fact it may see this as an opportunity to try and wrest as much of J&K as possible.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20616
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby chetak » 27 Feb 2019 19:08

sum wrote:Why were the jags not employed if they are meant specifically for such a fast/low/nap of earth flying , bombing and return missions?
I guess jags also have been integrated with pretty decent standoff weapons?


as per an old joke, the jags suffer seriously from bird hits, ...............

on their trailing edges.

Barath
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 67
Joined: 11 Feb 2019 19:06

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Barath » 28 Feb 2019 02:16

fanne wrote:
short range of Mig 29 (as in past) was not a M2k problem. I think within the covers where M2K scores (speculation alert)
1. Reliability (as you mentioned) with machine. With over 90% availability, training, mission planning etc. all gets better.
2.Relability with armament (the AA will work every time, even if it has a lesser range/lesser agility than it's Russian counterpart)
......s


The other thing one should think about (other than reliability/logistics etc in short term above) is training.

Just because a plane is multi-role does not mean that all the pilots have equal expertise in each of the roles. It may happen <speculation> that Mig 29 being substantially a air to air fighter (especially before upgrade), the bulk of the training hours and the tactics etc may have been spent on air to air.

Similarly with Mirage 2000 - it has been commonly used in past for air to ground, one would assume pilots are trained and honed on the air to ground capabilities, deliveries and tactics. While some time would have been spent on other roles, how much expertise and overall capability was created ?

Similarly we see MKI being used preferentially as A2A due to fact that when it entered, it was one of the better A2A systems in IAF. This may not even be true now for all squadrons but could be true of some. Or some squadrons may have experienced pilots and some have a mix of younger and older.. </deep speculation>

Strike package would have required different skills (co-ordination, route planning, obfuscation, refueling, attack, pre and post strike reconnaissance) that makes demands on plane., equipment, systems,logistiscs,reliability AND training

The man factor is also important. It's not just Pokemon-do of planes.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5180
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby SBajwa » 28 Feb 2019 02:57

When are Rafale being delivered? The sooner the better!!!!

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 03:02

Thakur_B wrote:
sum wrote:Why were the jags not employed if they are meant specifically for such a fast/low/nap of earth flying , bombing and return missions?
I guess jags also have been integrated with pretty decent standoff weapons?


I believe that it was because M2k can defend itself with MICA and beat a hasty retreat if required in the eventuality of Pakistaniyat hits the fan moment. M2K gets more done in smaller numbers which was necessary for this type of incursion .


Guys it was because of the munition i.e. SPICE, versatility and overall capability (i.e. maneuverable, can self-defend). Mirage 2000s are gold standard strike aircraft in the IAF inventory at present because they carry the widest mix of Israeli munitions & also possess a very credible integral EW fit.

So, the Mirage 2000s used in the strike had a mix of PGM carriers, EW aircraft (2, we are told) and then Escorts.

Sukhois are no slouches either (several A2G munitions), but we may not want them to be exposed so early in the game, especially if the Pakis were monitoring all the trons & soaked up the radar data from the Sukhois. Remember, they already have a fair amount of stuff (or should have) from the non-upgraded Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s thanks to the Kargil ops when both sides were locking each other up. They did have ESM gear at the time, the Atlantique was shot down on a snooping mission against IAF assets in the area.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 03:05

nachiket wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:I believe that it was because M2k can defend itself with MICA and beat a hasty retreat if required in the eventuality of Pakistaniyat hits the fan moment. M2K gets more done in smaller numbers which was necessary for this type of incursion .

Super 530D and Magic II sir not MICA. These were non-upgraded Mirages.


We may have sent a few upgraded Mirages along with the strike Mirages as escorts. At least that's what I'd do, to confuse the opponent who thinks they are all of one type but receives a nasty surprise.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13122
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Feb 2019 03:09

I think the F-16 put on A/B to escape westwards. The MiG-21 can reach Mach 2 IIRC, while the F-16 can only about 1.6 or so. The nice a/b provided the brave Wing Commander with a once-in-a-lifetime target, and he wasn't going to miss that. Hero.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Feb 2019 03:40

UlanBatori wrote:I think the F-16 put on A/B to escape westwards. The MiG-21 can reach Mach 2 IIRC, while the F-16 can only about 1.6 or so. The nice a/b provided the brave Wing Commander with a once-in-a-lifetime target, and he wasn't going to miss that. Hero.

May i suggest ubcn to change name to Yak news..

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 984
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 28 Feb 2019 03:49

UlanBatori wrote:I think the F-16 put on A/B to escape westwards. The MiG-21 can reach Mach 2 IIRC, while the F-16 can only about 1.6 or so. The nice a/b provided the brave Wing Commander with a once-in-a-lifetime target, and he wasn't going to miss that. Hero.

How do you know this sir?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 04:44

The R73E is an all-aspect IR missile. An A/B will help it, but it doesn't necessarily need it.

What makes the R73E even more lethal is its targeting system, the helmet mounted sight used by the pilot.

To quote how it works on the MiG-29 (from which it was adapted to our Bisons):

https://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

mig29luftwaffe.jpg (35476 bytes)"But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!


https://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/22/news ... o-the.html

LAAGE AIR BASE, Germany— Hurtling a few hundred yards down a runway, the needle-nosed fighter takes off almost vertically, showing the thrust of its twin jets before it flashes out of sight across the rolling fields of northern Germany and out over the Baltic Sea.

"For a pilot, it's the perfect machine," says the wing commander of Fighter Wing 73, Colonel Rhinehard Mack, 48.
In the cockpit, a sight-and-shoot helmet is linked by lasers to missiles under the wing so that the pilot can simply stare at an enemy for two seconds and fire, without need to manuever.
Nonexistent in Western air forces, this killer-sight is another singular feature the MiG-29 interceptor.


The Pakistanis also have JMHS and the AIM-9M.

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/Product ... ystem.aspx
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... siles.html
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/59 ... ted-02905/

So, what decided the duel?

Skill, skill, skill.

I will bet this upfront. WingCo Abhinandan had far more hours as a pilot and was trained to a higher standard than the F-16 guys he shot down. He knew his beast through and through and exploited every edge to the max.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Feb 2019 05:13

Are you sure its the Aim-9M? HOBS with JHMCS wasn't really introduced till the X variant of the SW.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 05:28

Only AIM-9Ms with them, so no designation?

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Feb 2019 05:30

No the Aim-9Ms can't be cued by the JHMCS and HOBS capability only came with the Aim-9X. I always thought that PAF operated the 9X but based on quick research now it appears they bought the JHMCS and received pre 9X, 9M SW only during the 2000s so I guess they stocked on the HMCS in anticipation of future orders and upgrades.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2019 05:34

KaranM, What's status of the Astra production batch? I thought 50 were being assembled at the facility inaugurated by Jaitley as RM.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 05:48

Brar W, thats a huge advantage for the IAF in the close in fight!!!
All our A2A/Multirole fighters have HMS/HMCS with HOBS missiles!!!

Ramana, that batch production (to my knowledge) is surely underway. The IAF has received a few Astra, they even fired one at Gagan Shakti. My dream/hope is that test batch instead is a regular batch of a significant order and enough units were shipped to IAF on emergency basis. I can dream.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 05:56

The PAFs precision strike capability at night is also limited, I believe.

They have 8x ASELSAN pods for their JF-17s, only 37 pods (SNIPER) for their F-16s (most of which would be carried by their 2 seaters, 31 of them) and the ROSE Mirage 5s which had an IRST under the nose meant for A2G strikes, navigation are very old aircraft.

Retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef quoted...
But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the ageing planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.
"They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents," Lateef said.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/thrifty ... ng-1844415

Net, net - the F-16s are the alphas of the pack. Take out a significant chunk of the F-16 fleet, and we will cripple the PAF, it will be seriously hobbled and get into a defensive mindset.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13099
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 28 Feb 2019 05:57

MEA only said we shot down their AC it did not categorically identify the type to be a f-16 . Any ways hope the Bisons are replaced by Tejas asap .

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 06:00

True, but the same thing applies for all their fighters. Not sure whether even the JF-17s have a HMCS.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13099
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 28 Feb 2019 06:04

Well my comment was in context of the possibility that if we only took out a bandar or say mirage then it would sort of validate my theory that Pakis had always planned this to lure our AC into their airspace and were never serious about conducting any air strike in the first place , they want to preserve their f-16s for a full blown conflict .

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Feb 2019 06:08

Karan M wrote:Net, net - the F-16s are the alphas of the pack. Take out a significant chunk of the F-16 fleet, and we will cripple the PAF, it will be seriously hobbled and get into a defensive mindset.


Actually even those aren't much to really sweat about if you look at the numbers. A quick search on the Jane's database shows they received 18 Block50/52's and were also able to upgrade around 45 block 15 F-16's via a MLU. Assuming an 80% MC rate during surge this means around 50 fighters in total so if you split them by task and mission then it SEVERELY limits their ability to conduct meaningful offensive operations. I don't think they'll be venturing into Indian airspace anytime soon..unless they take a very very big risk which has the potential of setting back their AF by a many years..
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Feb 2019 06:28, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 06:09

Negi, they sent their best anticipating heavy opposition from Sukhois, Mirages etc. Once they take casualties, you bet they will suddenly scale down their F-16 ops.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13099
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby negi » 28 Feb 2019 06:24

Well I would be more than happy to be wrong on this however since there is no official confirmation on our end I would stick to my theory for now .

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Feb 2019 06:29

negi wrote:Well my comment was in context of the possibility that if we only took out a bandar or say mirage then it would sort of validate my theory that Pakis had always planned this to lure our AC into their airspace and were never serious about conducting any air strike in the first place , they want to preserve their f-16s for a full blown conflict .

let's say even if it was mirage or jf17, we did down the plane. JF17 is "supposedly" better than tejas, then by that logic better than Mig 21. Period. Even if it was mirage, so what we downed teh plane thats it.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Feb 2019 06:35

negi wrote:Well I would be more than happy to be wrong on this however since there is no official confirmation on our end I would stick to my theory for now .


Well what else can they send against a Su-30 or MiG29 force? Not the JF17 surely for a fighter strike intended to cause max. Success for PR. Kaiser Tufails article on Kargil shows how they think and plan. They were in a similar situation and planned a fighter sweep but didnt have BVR so dropped the idea. Today, they have BVR mostly on their F-16s. AVM Arjun Subramaniam notes that a Bison shot down a F16 from his grapevine and supports a send the best theory, seems logical.

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 294
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby ManuJ » 28 Feb 2019 06:41

Please bear in mind that reports now talk of a whole complement of PAF attackers, including bombers and air cover fighters.
If so, the air cover could have been provided by F-16.
However, air cover fighters would not have had to intrude into Indian territory, only the bombers would have done that.
If the Mig21's primary task was to chase away invaders, it would have tried to initially engage the bombers...

Rohit_K
BRFite
Posts: 564
Joined: 09 Nov 2006 22:53
Location: atop Sukkur Barage

Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Rohit_K » 28 Feb 2019 06:56

Pardon my ignorance and apologies if already debunked.

Was there a second captured IAF pilot? In this pic someone in the back has their hands in the air.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0ZhUBqWsAApHWR.jpg


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests