Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby srin » 28 Feb 2019 15:31

chola wrote:Two things we can deduce from this:

1) Their F-16 being hit by a MiG-21 over Paki territory when the paki F-Solah is supposed to have AMRAAM means either a kill switch or it is not armed until the US releases it,

It is also possible that the airspace had civilian aircraft and so the RoE didn't permit BVR engagements (for them as well as for us). I couldn't figure out how to make FlightRadar24 show historical air traffic maps, so it's just a possibility right now.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Ardeshir » 28 Feb 2019 15:32

"Defence Analyst' Abhijit Iyer seems to have declared it to be from the Mig-21. https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1101015599138959360
Of course, quoting Paki sources. :roll:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Feb 2019 15:43

First 3 pics are Mig 21 last 3 are F 16's

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby JayS » 28 Feb 2019 16:01

I take back my words.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby nam » 28 Feb 2019 16:03

If this was a chase scenario, I would imagine a Ramjet powered BVR would be a tremendous asset.

Given that it is full powered at 3 Mach all the distance, it can chase it's target for potentially long distance, with datalinks!

If someone is looking for a reason to say not having Rafale caused this.. here it is :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby rgosain » 28 Feb 2019 16:23

There is a line from these events to the rafale scandal. The real scandal are the attempts to deprive the IAF of the Rafale by N Ram and his PRC backers and RaGa by his EU mentors, and the decade of the UPA rule which saw no induction of the Rafale or Tejas.

PAF have been backing away from the original claim that the F16s were involved in yesterday's engagement. The constant daylight probing by the paf is to lure the IAF into local conflict traps, and to normalise daylight ops, before springing a major night operation.

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Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2019 17:46

Last Page of Previous News Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7695&start=320

Last Page of Previous Discussion Thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7694&start=2200

Starting off a new discussion thread with some verified facts to date and instructions for all posters. The facts below will change with further verifiable info.

1) A strike package consisting of 12 Mirage 2000s struck JeM terrorist training camps in Balakot, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) province in Pakistan around 3:30 a.m. (Indian Standard Time) on Feb 26, 2019. This air strike was in response to the JeM suicide bomber attack on Feb 14, 2019 killing 40 CRPF jawans in Pulwama, Kashmir. The air strike was successful in eliminating the training camps that were targeted. There was no losses of Indian Air Force aircraft or personnel in this incident.

2) The Pakistan Air Force responded on Feb 27, 2019 on Indian military installations in the Naushera sector - an Indian Army Brigade HQ and an ammunition depot. However the PAF strike package was intercepted by an Indian Air Force CAP (Combat Air Patrol) team - consisting of the MiG-21 Bison and the Su-30MKI - flying in the area.

3) Upon detection of the CAP team, the PAF strike force turned back. One of the MiG-21 Bison aircraft gave chase to the PAF strike package, crossed the Line of Control and shot down a PAF F-16 with a R-73 close combat missile. In the ensuing battle the MiG-21 was possibly shot down by a MANPAD (MAN Portable Air Defense system). This info will be updated as more verifiable data comes to light.

4) The IAF pilot who was shot down is Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman. He is currently being held in custody with the Pakistan Army. Videos of interrogations of Wing Commander Varthaman have been released by the Pakistan Army. It has been reported that Pakistan will release Wing Commander Varthaman on March 01, 2019.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above are the facts that stand as of right now. What the moderators want to see from posters is the following;

1) No Rona-Dhona of any kind. India is in a de-facto state of war with Pakistan. We will likely lose more men and more equipment. This is what happens in war. If you cannot stomach this, please do NOT post. Do not vent your anger on the forum. It is counterproductive to the discussion at hand and then moderators and other forum members have to waste their energy on you. If you still display Rona-Dhona, you will be banned. No exceptions.

2) Do not talk about movements of army formations, squadron movements or naval assets of the Indian Armed Forces on the forum. If you disobey this rule, you will be banned. No exceptions.

3) No more whining about why MiG-21 was doing CAP in the area. You do not know better than the Indian Air Force (please spare us your analysis) and therefore you need to think before you post. Wing Commander Varthaman, in the best traditions of the Indian Air Force and what any self respecting and aggressive combat pilot would do, gave chase and shot down a F-16 of the Pakistan Air Force. That is what he was trained to do. If you continue to post nonsense on this, you will be banned. No exceptions.

4) No one liners, sarcastic comments or insinuations. If you have nothing value to add to the discussion, please continue reading. You will learn more and therefore be more aware of the situation. No one is interested in reading your despondency. Moderators and other level headed forum members are not psychiatrists and we are not here to molly coddle you, just because you feel the need to act out like a child. If you disobey this rule, you will be banned. No exceptions.

5) Expect the worst and plan for the best with regards to Wing Commander Varthaman. We are dealing with a nation that has no sense of moral decency with respect to POWs. If something has to happen to him, you must stay calm. It does not respect him or his family by you ranting and raving on the forum. Not good for the forum or for your own personal health. I say again, we are at war with an enemy that has no moral compass. Pray for Wing Commander Varthaman's safe return. Pray for his family. That is what we *MUST* do now.

6) Do not visit Pakistani propaganda twitter accounts and websites. It will only further demoralize you. Psy-Ops is what they excel at. So do yourself and the forum a favour and please stay away.

7) Stick together and stay united. We are only as strong as our weakest link. Please do not be that weak link that brings us all down.

Jai Hind! Humara Bharat Mahan!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby habal » 28 Feb 2019 17:51

Saudi FM coming to pakistan carrying message from prince.

my guess is saudi ambassador in meeting with PM in morning was read out the riot act.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby parshuram » 28 Feb 2019 17:53

India Today showing AIM 120 -C5 Part , Confirming F-16's were used by PAF

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 28 Feb 2019 17:54

PAF did not trust it's heat seekers?

Image

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby parshuram » 28 Feb 2019 17:57

Can it be used at Close range fights ? I think not implying if a BVR shot was what WC Abhi jet down .

@nam I think it is Radar Guided Version ...
Last edited by parshuram on 28 Feb 2019 17:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudhan » 28 Feb 2019 17:58

Manu Pubby says
"India to shortly release evidence of the air strikes, dog fight on the Pak border."

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 28 Feb 2019 18:00

If AIM part fell this side of LOC, doesn't it mean that was an AIM that was AIMless?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Feb 2019 18:01

PAF pilot used what he thought was the best option , May be the AMRAAM had a radar lock so it was better choice over AIM-9X

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Mollick.R » 28 Feb 2019 18:01

---- Deleted ----
Last edited by Rakesh on 28 Feb 2019 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please read above instructions in the first post.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Feb 2019 18:02

Vishnu Som Story says 2 AMRAAM fired , One hit the Winco , One Narrowly Missed his Wingman ......This must be the wingman missile that missed and fell eventually

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby TandavBrahmand » 28 Feb 2019 18:03

Given that solah was turning its back and Abhi was chasing it, fired A2A's direction would be towards our side.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Feb 2019 18:05

nam wrote:PAF did not trust it's heat seekers?

It is not uncommon for Vipers kitted for strike to carry wingtip AMRAAMs for self defense instead of Aim-9's as this allows them to launch at greater distances and disengage earlier if need be. Depending upon what aircraft engaged the MiG-21 this could be one possible explanation. Alternatively, if it was an F-16 that was providing top cover from inside PAF space that launched the weapon it could have done it at a greater distance than what would have been possible with the Aim-9.

Can it be used at Close range fights ? I think not implying if a BVR shot was what WC Abhi jet down .


All BVR weapons can be used at close ranges provided they don't have to rapidly maneuver for a HOB shot. The AMRAAM C7 and D are the ones that have the expanded HOBS envelope and software upgrades enabling them to be better at this but the C5 should also be capable of being launched at very close distances within a smaller launch envelope.
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Feb 2019 18:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby GopiD » 28 Feb 2019 18:07

Mollick.R wrote:---Deleted----

---Deleted---
Last edited by Rakesh on 28 Feb 2019 18:08, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Responding to edited post is not permitted.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby rgosain » 28 Feb 2019 18:08

habal wrote:Saudi FM coming to pakistan carrying message from prince.

my guess is saudi ambassador in meeting with PM in morning was read out the riot act.


There was some concern about the AIM-120 being compromised and cloned by the PRC.
The ISPR yesterday claimed that no F16 were involved, now that the IAF has disclosed that the strike package had 12-18 F16, this raises a question about the reliability of the PRC airframes, and whether the paf can rely upon them for such missions, hence the preponderonce of F16s.
The loss of just a single bison to such odds should be a relief to the IAF and points to the professionalism of the wing co - the tejas and rafales cannot come soon enough.
Last edited by rgosain on 28 Feb 2019 18:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Nsmith » 28 Feb 2019 18:09

From Vishnu Som's report:

The paki strike package was engaged by our Su 30s and Mirages as well.... But no report of BVR missiles fired. So it means that the paki f16s and bundars weren't in BVR range?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Mollick.R » 28 Feb 2019 18:09

OT --> someone re-edited (deleted) the 27th Feb IAF Mig-21 Bison shooting Pakistani f-16.

Just checked in Wikipedia, it's no more present.
I guess Lockheed Martin & Uncle Sam are too big and powerful to control information flow on Wiki.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 28 Feb 2019 18:10

What concerns me is that our Su-30MKIs seem to be missing all action despite having 250 of these!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 28 Feb 2019 18:12

Mollick.R wrote:OT --> someone re-edited (deleted) the 27th Feb IAF Mig-21 Bison shooting Pakistani f-16.

Just checked in Wikipedia, it's no more present.
I guess Lockheed Martin & Uncle Sam are too big and powerful to control information flow on Wiki.


LM must be actively fire-fighting in the hope that IAF would still become interested in their old wine.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 28 Feb 2019 18:12

brar_w wrote:
nam wrote:PAF did not trust it's heat seekers?

It is not uncommon for Vipers kitted for strike to carry wingtip AMRAAMs for self defense instead of Aim-9's as this allows them to launch at greater distances and disengage earlier if need be. Depending upon what aircraft engaged the MiG-21 this could be one possible explanation. Alternatively, if it was an F-16 that was providing top cover from inside PAF space that launched the weapon it could have done it at a greater distance than what would have been possible with the Aim-9.


From the reports, it seems there was a merge, with Mig21 firing off it's R73.

So it would have been risky to fire off an BVR from a distance. You never know what it will hit.

I think PAF pilot might have done what USAF pilot did with Syrian jet. Being safe than sorry about heater seeker follow Mig's flares, prefer to use Aim-120 in a WVR.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Chinmayanand » 28 Feb 2019 18:13

PM Modi in Vigyaan Bhawan ," Abhi ek pilot project kiya hai .Pilot project ko SCALE kiya jata hai. Yeh practice thaa . Ab REAL karna hai ."

Jai Ho !!! PM Modi will take this fight to the logical end . It ain't over till terror factory is closed ."

PM in Rajasthan ," Agar is atank ki factory ko band karne ka kaam mere jimme hi hai , to yahi sahi . "

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Feb 2019 18:14

amraam more likely to have been fired from one of the covering fighters and not the one being chased

most likely they all held back so that they couldn't be locked up by the Su30s and did a shoot n scoot as soon as possible

at jet speeds the distances between the LOC and IB don't take long to cover and in mountainous terrain you can't tell where you are very easily

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby IndraD » 28 Feb 2019 18:15

this one from NDTV has details of dog fight that happened yesterday https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/24-paki ... rs-2000703

NEW DELHI: As India waited for the release of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, who is in Pakistan's custody, exclusive details emerged on the unprecedented air combat operation along the Line of Control, where a package of 24 Pakistani aircraft were intercepted by eight IAF fighters, which included a MiG 21 Bison he was piloting.
The Wing Commander was in hot pursuit of a Pakistani F-16 jet, which he engaged with an R-73 air-to-air missile. The state-of-the-art Pakistani fighter, thought to be a two-seater variant of the jet, was shot down. Both pilots were seen parachuting down on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control.

NDTV has learnt that the Pakistani Air Force strike package included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft, four Chinese made JF-17 "Thunder" fighter.

Other aircraft in the formation were escort fighters to protect the Pakistan strike formation from any IAF retaliation. The large Pakistani attack formation was detected at 9.45 am, when they came within 10 km of the Line of Control.

A small number of these fighters then proceeded to cross the Line of Control, when they were intercepted by eight IAF jets, which included four Sukhoi 30s, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 Bisons.

The Air Force fighters gave chase to the Pakistani jets on their return leg after they had dropped a handful of laser-guided bombs that narrowly missed their military targets along the Line of Control.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was in hot pursuit of a Pakistani F-16, which his radar had locked onto.

Despite being warned by other aircraft in the formation about the presence of Pakistani fighters, he pushed home his attack and fired an R-73 air-to-air missile.

At this stage of the air-to-air encounter, the pilot's wingman was also exposed and vulnerable.

Two missiles were fired by Pakistani F-16s. One of them, an AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) struck his aircraft, while another missed his wingman.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby parshuram » 28 Feb 2019 18:15

Deleted .
Last edited by Suraj on 28 Feb 2019 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Do not post unsubstantiated claims.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 28 Feb 2019 18:17

parshuram wrote:Our 2 bisons enagaged em {sorry to say ... but look like by chance only}...

And you know this how?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby vivekmehta » 28 Feb 2019 18:17

what can be possible scenarios that can go on from here and what can be there consequence.

1- We will get our Pilot back + some ban on some more terror outfits+ some more begging from pakistan in open to deescalate the situation . consequence we may put or forces on stand by slowly defusing situation .NAMO can keep going to do his rallies calming a win.

2- We dont get in trap of getting Pilot back and simply let Tri services respond to paki escalation as per original plan (may be postpone it till getting him back by tomorrow) . there can be 2 consequences of this 1) pakistan start crying and will ask international community to end this .they may also respond with small scale operation to show there janta . India will stop after giving a heavy dose . 2) pakistan choose to respond on equal scale .... this may lead to all out war.. NAMO will still gain from it ..

IMO scenario 1 may not lead to long lasting results because we will fall short of objective on imposing a cost on real terror sponsors like generals and isi . a pulwama or mumbai can happen again after some time as we will be leaving there jihad factory untouched.

till now i think we have definitely delivered a message to pak and world that this is new India and will not take things laying down . but scenario 2 needs to be played out ,yes it may impose a heavy cost on us also but it will escalate fall of pakistan where we can brake it in 4 manageable pieces at a later stage.

stopping here will be leaving job half finished.......

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby krish.pf » 28 Feb 2019 18:18

India today showing the remains of AIM-120 C5 which missed the wingman according to the ndtv report!!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 28 Feb 2019 18:19

nam wrote:
brar_w wrote:It is not uncommon for Vipers kitted for strike to carry wingtip AMRAAMs for self defense instead of Aim-9's as this allows them to launch at greater distances and disengage earlier if need be. Depending upon what aircraft engaged the MiG-21 this could be one possible explanation. Alternatively, if it was an F-16 that was providing top cover from inside PAF space that launched the weapon it could have done it at a greater distance than what would have been possible with the Aim-9.


From the reports, it seems there was a merge, with Mig21 firing off it's R73.

So it would have been risky to fire off an BVR from a distance. You never know what it will hit.

I think PAF pilot might have done what USAF pilot did with Syrian jet. Being safe than sorry about heater seeker follow Mig's flares, prefer to use Aim-120 in a WVR.


There is no way to tell exactly what went down because we have no idea on which aircraft shot at the MiG-21 and how it was kitted out. All I said was that strike Vipers often carry a pair of wingtip mounted AMRAAMs and sometimes don't have a CCM at all because a pair of BVRAAMs gives them more flexibility to disengage and get out of there.

Secondly, PAF has Aim-9Ms which lack a data-link so if you ever had the problem of not knowing "who it will hit" you are actually better off launching a missile that has a data link. Again, so many different permutations are possible that it is pointless to focus on this very point. I seem to remember that the Turks shot down the Russian jet with a CCM probably because visual ID was necessary for them based on their ROE. It is quite possible that the launching F-16 did not have Aim-9's or it could be possible that he chose the AMRAAM despite of having it based on a number of factors which we can't narrow down to due to lack of information.
Last edited by brar_w on 28 Feb 2019 18:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 28 Feb 2019 18:19

Guys
A lot of the guests on the forum will likely be Pakistanis- civvies, journos and some shady characters. Please be careful of what you post- not just substance but style, etc .

Just echoing the requests by Rakesh in his first post on this thread.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Feb 2019 18:19

one our side, civilian a.c were most certainly in the air enroute to srinagar and leh.

but they still fired 2 amraams.

on their side there is anyway hardly any civilian air traffic barring the odd flight to gilgit and skardu.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby arshyam » 28 Feb 2019 18:20

For the record:

Pakistan targeted Indian Military Installation, violated Geneva Convention: Defence Ministry - TNIE, Published: 28th February 2019 04:33 PM | Last Updated: 28th February 2019 04:37 PM

NEW DELHI: India believes that the air intrusion by Pakistan on Wednesday was an attack on the military installation on the Indian side, while adding that Islamabad also violated the Geneva Convention by mistreating the captured Indian Air Force pilot, Defence Ministry officials said on Thursday.

Stressing that Pakistan has breached Geneva Convention, which provides protection to prisoners of wars and wounded of armed forces, Defence Ministry officials told ANI: "We believe that the Pakistan air intrusion was an attack on the military installations on the Indian side. Also, the Indian Air Force Pilot, captured by Pakistan, was ill-treated by the Pakistan Army, which is in violation of the Geneva Convention."

READ | Pakistan violates ceasefire second time in a day in Poonch

"We believe that the Pakistan Army is actively supporting the Jaish-e-Mohammed and is harbouring the leaders including Masood Azhar in its facilities," they added.

India on Wednesday also strongly objected to Pakistan’s vulgar display of injured personnel of the Indian Air Force in violation of all norms of International Humanitarian Law and the Geneva Convention.

It was also made clear that Pakistan would be well advised to ensure that no harm comes to the Indian defence personnel in its custody.

It is worth mentioning that Pakistan-based terror outfit JeM orchestrated the attack on a CRPF convoy on February 14, in which, around 40 CRPF personnel were killed.

Taking an action against counter-terrorism, India launched an attack against a training camp of JeM in Pakistan's Balakot.

READ | Willing to consider returning IAF pilot if it leads to 'de-escalation': Pak Foreign Minister

Responding to this, Pakistan on Wednesday morning "used its Air Force to target military installations on the Indian side. However, due to a high state of readiness and alertness, India foiled Pakistan’s attempts successfully", the Ministry of External Affairs said.

"The Pakistan Air Force was detected and the Indian Air Force responded instantly. In that aerial engagement, one Pakistan Air Force fighter aircraft (F-16) was shot down by a MiG 21 Bison of the Indian Air Force. The Pakistani aircraft was seen by ground forces falling from the sky on the Pakistan side," it added.

READ | India won't make any 'deal' with Pakistan on captured pilot Abhinandan

"In this engagement, we have unfortunately lost one MiG 21. The pilot is missing in action. Pakistan has claimed that he is in their custody. We are ascertaining the facts," it said.

The Acting High Commissioner of Pakistan was summoned on Wednesday by Ministry of External Affairs in the national capital to lodge a strong protest at the unprovoked act of aggression by Pakistan against India, including violation of the Indian air space and targeting of Indian military posts.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 28 Feb 2019 18:20

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0fbQ98UwAA8HWC.jpg:large

Missiles dont have such prominent markings. Check R-77 & Astra high resolution photos. Or other AMRAAM photos. What is the source of this India Today image?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby parshuram » 28 Feb 2019 18:21

arshyam wrote:
parshuram wrote:Our 2 bisons enagaged em {sorry to say ... but look like by chance only}...

And you know this how?


I am quoting retired AF officals over media Sir . No i am not claiming that i am right here

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Feb 2019 18:21

Austin wrote:PAF pilot used what he thought was the best option , May be the AMRAAM had a radar lock so it was better choice over AIM-9X

PAF does not have Aim9X only Aim9M and Aim9L
Last edited by Aditya_V on 28 Feb 2019 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Feb 2019 18:23

tsarkar wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0fbQ98UwAA8HWC.jpg:large

Missiles dont have such prominent markings. Check R-77 & Astra high resolution photos. Or other AMRAAM photos. What is the source of this India Today image?


https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/11 ... 5788486662

Image


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