Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 26 Jun 2019 08:09

Aditya_V wrote:
Vips wrote:Datapoint: We so far have 18 Mirage 2000 which have been upgraded/modernized and another 2 squadrons worth remaining to be upgraded. It is taking a long time.


Actually 19- the 19th one had a software error and took out 2 of our pilots in January. I dont think any of the 2 seat versions have been upgraded as of now.


3 Mirage-2000 TH have been upgraded to the TI standard, at least. I saw a picture recently where 3 TIs were flying with other upgraded single seaters.

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby MeshaVishwas » 26 Jun 2019 13:57

Balakot air strike planner named new R&AW chief, J&K expert is IB head-Vicky Nanjappa
https://www.oneindia.com/india/balakot- ... 09831.html

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7874
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jun 2019 22:25

Rafale's capabilities are twice that of Mirage 2000: Air Marshal R Nambiar
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/raf ... 31213.html

On Pakistan's claim on Balakot, Nambiar said, "My chief has mentioned that the Balakot strike was successful and people who know best about it are Pakistanis. I suggest you ask them how successful it was."
:rotfl:

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8118
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Jun 2019 16:10

Epic level trolling.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20172
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 27 Jun 2019 16:44

I would add that their objective was to bomb Indian targets close to the LOC and scoot back before we could react/ intercept them and claim an infamous victory..However, our Bisons tx. to our AWACS and MKI cover prevented the PAF from a clear strike. What must've put their tails between their legs was that of a Bison going after their F-16, downing it too.
Last edited by Philip on 28 Jun 2019 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2811
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 27 Jun 2019 17:14

yensoy wrote:The Chinese have no way of storing or using waters of the Brahmaputra


https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -tibet-dam

yensoy wrote:Admittedly they can weaponize it but it will not work well for them. They have no legal standing to let loose a wall of water. This will be construed as a very belligerent act and is certain to affect their perception in the world,

If India weaponizes Indus or other river waters, we give them a quid pro quo

ArjunPandit wrote:1. why do you think it would be easy for the lashkars to breach the heavily protected borders?

There is nothing called as heavily protected borders. The border is 1000+ km long with occasional patrolling.
If due to an India cause drought or flood, there is a mass migration of tribal lashkars, Pakistanis can always claim it to be a humanitarian crisis perpetrated by India with tribal populace displacing to higher riverine reaches in India.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1491
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby yensoy » 27 Jun 2019 20:24

tsarkarji

1. Slowly but surely grabbing our treaty assured share of river waters is not quite the same as opening sluice gates all of a sudden and inundating the downstream populace. Even if that is in our capability vis-a-vis Pakistan, I will not suggest using it as a weapon.
2. Please read the article you quote in your post. It's about hydro, which doesn't make the water vanish without a trace. The water is still there and still flows downstream.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12456
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2019 20:56

There is another though I had on water war based on a post in the Bakistan Economic thread where someone was voicing a concern that if the <Inflation/Baki Rupee/Can't recall exactly> goes through the roof the bakis will do a mass hijrat to India.

Now friends think for a moment, if <100%/pick your number> <inflation/or whatever else> forces a mass bakis migration to India what will No food not even grass to eat do to them?

Water is a weapon is true but like all weapons its use must be calibrated. The latent threat of the weapon is much more potent than it actual use.

1. As a psyops it is FULLY fine BUT it has to be finessed. Instead of an open threat we should do exactly the opposite. Continue building dams while vociferously denying any ulterior motive. This is "chor ke dadhi me tinka" in reverse psyops. Slam anyway does not allow peacefools to trust and with a vociferous kuffar denial and that too from lowest of all kuffar i.e yindu bania, the threat will multiply in the minds of the bakis and assume giant proportions.
2. Continue building dams to exploit our fullest share of the water. Generate as much electricity as we can from the river(s). There is no question of compromise on that. This by itself, with small and large pondages, will create sufficient capacity of "disrupt" normal flow. To that extent the storage becomes a tool.
3. I am not sure of the cross-basin water diversion. May be some limited diversion can be planned for the future. To the extent of geography the constraints will remain unless we are ready to spend enormous amount of money to overcome it.
4. While all kind of noose tightening is good, food and water denial will create the strongest conditions for a mass bakis push into India [Linking back to what really triggered this thought]. They must have their grass at least to feed themselves and their goats. Remember, when the great Saraswati vanished, the folks along its bank did not just die. They migrated!
5. With an ever growing population and no new storage capacity, they themselves are creating the necessary conditions for our small storage capacity to be weaponized.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 27 Jun 2019 23:36

Lets add the detour cost for India based airlines due to closed paki airspace, calculate the area of cultivation for Jatropha based bio fuel needed to compensate for the detours both inbounds and outbounds, derive a number on the water required say in Rajasthan and slash as much from IWT to make it a political issue

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 28 Jun 2019 18:34

India also needs to make a statement that when the carefully negotiated US-Iran nuclear accord could be suspended at will by the US, then IWT can meet the same fate at any point in future

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 30 Jun 2019 02:05

Worth mentioning a new data point. RAW says TSP expended 60% of its artillery and ammunition stock in recent Post Balakot LOC CFVs.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2524
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 30 Jun 2019 09:55

^^^
Source?

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 30 Jun 2019 14:20

Latest intel estimates
Jammu & Kashmir: ‘Significant drop’ in infiltrations this year
Security officials say there could be a number of reasons for the decline: the post-Pulwama, post-Balakot international pressure on Pakistan; the scrutiny of the Financial Action Task Force; Pakistan’s need to project Prime Minister Imran Khan’s offer of talks with India as genuine; or, a temporary pause.

“This winter there was heavy snowfall in the Valley and traditional infiltration routes were closed, thus delaying the infiltration. But by now, the snow in many areas has already started to melt and there is still no significant movement of infiltrators,” said a senior officer. “It seems that the international pressure on Pakistan and the threat of FATF blacklisting is holding Pakistan back”.

“In the Army, we would call this (the absence of infiltration) an ‘early indicator’,” Lt Gen Hooda said, “pointing to some checks by the Pakistan Army on these fellows (militants). They have their own launch pads, but they do require permission from the Pakistan Army before they cross the border”.

While the decline in infiltration and cross-border terrorism may be good news tactically, security agencies have also warned against “triumphalism”, and are even advocating some swift confidence-building measures at this time, such as reaching out to members of Kashmir’s civil society, engaging with the youth, improving governance, strengthening pro-India stakeholders, even reaching out to Pakistan to find out if its present “unsolicited co-operation” —- including intelligence tip-off of an imminent terror attack in the Valley earlier this month – is genuine outreach or just tactical.

The Sunday Express has learnt that security officials have redflagged the dangers of “destroying assets” in Kashmir, and highlighted the importance of taking the aggressive campaign launched by Central agencies against corruption in the Valley to Jammu as well.

K Mehta
BRFite
Posts: 955
Joined: 13 Aug 2005 02:41
Location: Bangalore

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby K Mehta » 01 Jul 2019 06:54

Please also post the name of paper and authors. This article is just a trial balloon.
It is based on unnamed source talking about reduced infiltration and also makes an assumption that the tip off from Pakistan is from the establishment.

Mainly a trial balloon for

security agencies have also warned against “triumphalism”, and are even advocating some swift confidence-building measures at this time, such as reaching out to members of Kashmir’s civil society, engaging with the youth, improving governance, strengthening pro-India stakeholders, even reaching out to Pakistan.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2019 23:21

Article is Written by Bashaarat Masood, Nirupama Subramanian | Mumbai, Srinagar |

I dont think there is any agency in India that will warn about triumphalism and other bokwas.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Jul 2019 23:25

I have theory.
I think the Balakot strike eliminated the top and middle rung of JeM leadership and whats left are the low level dregs and Masood Azhar.
The consequence is HuM wants to seek some accommodation with GOI and Hurrirats are already there as Governor Satyapal Malik indicated.
This has led the Pak ISI to unleash their jackals of war AQIS on the HuM and this is the cause of the recent inter terrorist fights in Kashmir.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11195
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Gagan » 03 Jul 2019 05:26

One S-400 battery should be deployed such that POK airspace is a no-go zone for PAF

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 03 Jul 2019 17:33

GOI can impose NFZ already but haven't done it for several reasons. GOI has plans for certain sectors where it makes sense to use the tactic - we would have seen it in action post Balakot if it wasn't for international intervention.

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 04 Jul 2019 21:17

On topic - IAF and IA Ground Air Defence crew conducting exercise over J&K - testing preparedness and ability to get in the air to respond ASAP. Started yesterday. Su 30, M2K, IL-76, Jags in action.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9966
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 05 Jul 2019 05:38

Will throw the Pakis into a tizzy with such large scale maneuvers !

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 05 Jul 2019 21:30

Indeed it's a major exercise. TSPAF have sent their ELINT aircraft to monitor in case the exercise turns real.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3040
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Jul 2019 21:42

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 245_1.html

A couple of days ago, two PAF fighter jets flew at supersonic speeds over Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir around 10 kilometres from the Line of Control in the Poonch sector.

After the PAF started flying its planes close to Indian borders and were detected and monitored closely by the air defence network, the Indian fighter plane fleet was also ready to respond to them.

PoK is indian territory. These planes should be taken down

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1698
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Jul 2019 23:30

We are able to see the reaction to 2019 in various incidents to mob violence across India, even in the heart of the country, in Delhi. Being from the same subcontinent Muslim psyche, Pak can be expected to react in a similar way, once they get their bailout package settled. Expect large scale terror spectaculars once the bailout is secured. Such things may happen this december, when the snow bound borders make cross border strikes more difficult.

If I were to be really Chanakian, the govt. should continue to grow the economy and strengthen the defense/offence capabilities while pretending to engage the Pakis. This is the last 5 - 10 years of Pakis being an irritant in the subcontinent. The last stretch is the most tricky and many times, the most bloody stretch of a conflict. Hopefully, most of the blood will be spilt on the Paki side of the border.

In case there are indeed spectaculars, just how should the govt. of India react? First and foremost, terrorism is a battle fought in the mindspace of the citizen and the jihadi. If the citizen thinks, his govt. did not react sufficiently, the country has lost and the jihadi has won. If the jihadi is seen to be given a jaw breaker, he has lost. From this point of view:

1. We can reasonably gather a surmise, that many mid level terrorist managers/trainers were indeed killed and this may result in a slowdown in attacks in Kashmir in the short term.
2. Regardless of the real world success, Balakot was a propaganda world failure, in that it did not result in visible deaths of terrorists.
3. On the political side, it did not destabilize either Dimrans govt. nor the fauji hold on the goings on.

Comparing it with the Uri strikes, the strikes were a lot more successful in the propaganda visuals they produced. In the next strike, we should cater to our political requirements (Destabilize the planners of the operations, so they are deterred) and the propaganda requirements that arise from our political requirements.

Some tools for high propaganda value attacks are:

1. SDB type weapons.
2. Shrapnel less weapons that have a highly reduced kill radius.
3. Attack targets must be in cities and not jungles that take 2 days hike to get there. The damage must be visible.
4. Anticipate the Pak reaction and modify ROE to deter the reaction itself. IMHO, Pak planes should not have been allowed to mobilize at that high rate to raid India. Why should a Pak plane fly towards the Indian border in the aftermath of a surgical strike, if not to attack India? And if he is trying to attack India, why should he not be shot down?
5. We must make better use of narrative building.. Govt. officials must stop putting out facts and factoids, instead giving out narratives (a string of facts/propaganda lies that fit together in a story).
6. We must preposition journalists and 'citizen reporters'. All of them have phones with high quality cameras. These are propaganda force multipliers on the ground. If 5 minutes before the strike, one, or more local journo was called and told, get outside your home.. and start recording the sky. Something huge is going to happen.. we could have gotten on the ground reportage out even before Pakis could clamp down on the information.
7. Finally, we must also step up our support to NDS, BLA, MQM, criminal gangs etc.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 06 Jul 2019 18:30

Kartik wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:
Actually 19- the 19th one had a software error and took out 2 of our pilots in January. I dont think any of the 2 seat versions have been upgraded as of now.


3 Mirage-2000 TH have been upgraded to the TI standard, at least. I saw a picture recently where 3 TIs were flying with other upgraded single seaters.


Here is the pic I was referring to. KT201, KT202 and KT205 are visible.

Image

To commemorate #20YearsOfKargilWar, 5 aircraft Mirage-2000 formation was flown at AFS Gwalior. The Formation was led by Gp Capt H Kumar and Air Mshl R Nambiar AOC-in-C, WAC & Air Mshl R Kumar AOC-in-C, CAC were part of the flypast.

Image credit: IAF FB page

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18666
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 07 Jul 2019 04:33

shyamd wrote:Indeed it's a major exercise. TSPAF have sent their ELINT aircraft to monitor in case the exercise turns real.


Interesting, it shows the PAF Erieye has probably logged in so many hours they can't just use that alone either or are concerned about sending an active emitter into "shooting distance" of an IAF formation. They want a silent platform.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18666
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 07 Jul 2019 04:34

shyamd wrote:On topic - IAF and IA Ground Air Defence crew conducting exercise over J&K - testing preparedness and ability to get in the air to respond ASAP. Started yesterday. Su 30, M2K, IL-76, Jags in action.


Shows the AD assets the AF has allocated for the task. I wonder why no MiG-29s? IIRC a detachment was to be permanently located in Srinagar, and another at Leh? My memory's fuzzy.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 07 Jul 2019 08:27

I think pen sizes in Kashmir do not allow Mig 29. Wasn't Leh a recovery airport, mostly to land in emergency. Will a useful loaded plane takeoff from that height?

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 07 Jul 2019 16:04

Karan M wrote:Interesting, it shows the PAF Erieye has probably logged in so many hours they can't just use that alone either or are concerned about sending an active emitter into "shooting distance" of an IAF formation. They want a silent platform.

AIS transponder of a TSPN Hawker 850XP flying towards PoK was seen. Not sure about Mig's not joining...though we are talking 100 a/c - surely Mig29 must be part of it. It'll be over Jammu, Kashmir and Leh/Ladakh, along with IA Ground Air Defence crews posted on LoC. C4 etc will be tested.

GOI leaks
Pakistani terrorists being trained in Afghanistan after Balakot

India’s diplomatic missions and offices in Kabul and Kandahar have been put on high alert after intelligence inputs indicated that cadre of terror groups Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) have shifted to Kunar, Nangarhar, Nuristan and Kandahar provinces of Afghanistan after the Indian Air Force’s strike on the Balakot terror camp.

Indian Air Force (IAF) Mirage jets attacked JeM’s Balakot terror camp at Manshera in Pakistan, retaliating to the February 14 attack by a Jaish suicide-bomber on a Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) convoy in Pulwama, Jammu & Kashmir.

According to documents reviewed by Hindustan Times, both the Pakistan-based proscribed groups have joined hands with the Afghan Taliban and Afghan insurgent group, Haqqani Network, across the Durand Line that separates Pakistan from Afghanistan, for training their extremist cadre in subversive activity. It is perhaps due to this reason that the Modi government has not taken at face value the action taken by Pakistan’s Imran Khan government on July 1-2 on 15 over-ground LeT leaders and five charity organisations linked to terror funding. India has called for visible and verifiable action against armed terror groups and not window-dressing.

Indian security agencies believe that the terrorist cadre’s shift to across the Durand Line has been done to avoid black-listing of Pakistan by the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) in its Paris conference later this year. The multilateral body formed to crack down on cross-border money laundering and terror financing has been extremely critical of Pakistan and placed it on a grey list.


Indeed, people familiar with the matter in India’s counterterror agencies say that even as Pakistan was launching its July actions, Indian diplomatic establishments, including the embassy in Kabul, were under threat from a heavily-armed group of JeM terrorists led by Haji Abdul Safi. There was also a threat from another terrorist Qari Wari Gul to carry out a vehicle-borne IED attack on the Indian Embassy in Kabul. And there was an alert against a Taliban attack on the Indian consulate in Kandahar. The people added that these were very real threats.

The North Block has also been informed that a significant number of Jaish cadre shifted to Kot and Momandara (Nangarhar); Sanguin and Marja (Helmand); Logan, Nawa (Ghazni), Zurmat (Paktia), Kunar, Faryab and Kunduz provinces of Afghanistan in coordination with the Taliban. Intelligence reports also indicate that both the Taliban and the Haqqani Network offered shelter to Jaish emir Maulana Masood Azhar in Afghanistan in February 2019 but the latter felt more safe under the protection of the Pakistani Army in Bhawalpur.

The revelation about increased JeM footprint in Afghanistan came when two of its terrorists, identified as Sediq Akbar and Ataullah were arrested by Afghan National Security Force in January this year from Jalalabad while they were en-route to Kabul. Trained at Markaz Usman-e-Ali in Bhawalpur and Balakot terror camps, the two revealed that they had been tasked to conduct surveillance on Indian interests in Kabul and Kandahar.

Apart from this, LeT has established training centres for its cadre in Nangarhar, Nuristan, Kunar, Helmand and Kandahar provinces of Afghanistan. It has moved its cadre from Peshawar to Kabul, and also decided to train its cadre in subversion and sabotage with the help of Taliban.

A recent Pentagon report noted that the LeT, with more than 300 fighters in Afghanistan, posed a significant threat to the US and allied forces. The group has also been instrumental in forging peace between Taliban and so-called Islamic State of Khyber-Paktunkhwa.


Lt Gen Ranbir Singh interview to ET
Meanwhile on terrorist camps in PoK Singh said, “There are about 16 to 17 camps present till date. But this number keeps changing. Sometimes there are 37 to 38 camps. Sometimes they leave these camps and go to other camps and sometimes they make more camps. But until now there are about 16 camps.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13084
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Jul 2019 18:16

ArjunPandit wrote:https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/iaf-carries-out-major-readiness-exercise-along-pakistan-border-119031500245_1.html

A couple of days ago, two PAF fighter jets flew at supersonic speeds over Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir around 10 kilometres from the Line of Control in the Poonch sector.

PoK is indian territory. These planes should be taken down


Have a heart. Probably running away from Skardu and pilots really were in a hurry to "go".

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 07 Jul 2019 20:45

please visit sir Sameer Joshi's twitter. There are more update on 27th Feb dog fight. Apparently, 1 SU30MKI was targeted by multiple F-16s (fired 5 BVR?), some of them turned cold (I guess the nearest one), to lure the SU30MKI in thinking F-16 is turning away and stay on the station. The Sukhoi pilot rightly assessed the whole situation (I hope it was technology led, meaning all Sukhoi's have it and is not dependent on the pilot's interpretation), and evaded all 5. The TSPAF is shocked and in denial, and this one, in there feverent hope they keep claiming as shot down. In their calculation su30mki cannot evade 5 AIM-120, fired from multiple F-16, the whole ambush was pre-planned by them and assuring them of almost 100% success. That did not come to pass. Then it became a favorable story to cover their loss of F-16 (for their awam, world, and whoever else is listening).
I guess this also caused the confusion. One formation of PAF was bleating that a SU30MKI have been shot (as the engagement went per plan for TSPAF) - The terbala dam one. The other F-16 formation engaged by Abhinanadan, shot F-16 double seater. The other group must have taken time to shout on radio that they may have their plane down till they 100% confirmed. If the shot plane had the leader, it would have taken some time for the TSPAF to assess and inform TSPA to search for the downed plane. In the meantime, second plane down, 2 seater, 2 pilots, fits neatly with the SU down (TSP has an old habit crying victory even before war is over, perhaps a gazi syndrome, where they want to take credit of killing a kuffar, which in their book is a s big as overall victory itself). They kept on bleating about the second plane, three pilots in custody etc., locals beating them, perhaps with active indulgence from TSPA (as far as they knew, it was the enemy plane and enemy pilot). If the above sequence is right, the bravado of the few TSPAF personnel, led to the killing of their own pilots.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11313
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Jul 2019 14:48

I am still wondering why Wing Commander Abhinandan took the risk of crossing the LOC on 27 Feb? He wanted the F-16 kill really bad, which is good, but I think he twarted both the ambush of Su-30's and the F-16's from getting more bombs on target, 1 LGB was launched very successfully and only a lucky tree near the Brigade HQ saved the day.

I wish the IA and IAF could display, the other Amraam parts, the LGB remains, the H-4 Raad remains along with craters etc, to give the general public on what a heavy attack PAF tried and failed that day.

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6822
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby shyamd » 08 Jul 2019 23:35

Partly Because of TSPAF jamming which affected comms . Eyewitness accounts stated he asked if he was in India after being shot down - not sure if his Navigation was impacted too.

It all happens quickly and one wrong turn, you are across the border.

The other issue was SAR not being ready or planned. SOP will have to change or be looked out

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1698
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 09 Jul 2019 03:28

Aditya_V wrote:I am still wondering why Wing Commander Abhinandan took the risk of crossing the LOC on 27 Feb? He wanted the F-16 kill really bad, which is good, but I think he twarted both the ambush of Su-30's and the F-16's from getting more bombs on target, 1 LGB was launched very successfully and only a lucky tree near the Brigade HQ saved the day.

I wish the IA and IAF could display, the other Amraam parts, the LGB remains, the H-4 Raad remains along with craters etc, to give the general public on what a heavy attack PAF tried and failed that day.


You should never criticize your warriors for being too aggressive. I am not saying you are doing it.. But this was a line taken by many in the aftermath, that Abhi was 'over-aggressive', violated ROE, took un-necessary risks etc. etc. etc.

Like a Lion, he was by himself in his cockpit and took the decision to do what he did, based on his training, skills and intuition. Thats the end of it.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1491
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby yensoy » 09 Jul 2019 11:48

It's established that Abhi and his wingman were already on the other side of the LOC (but our side of the Pak border, i.e. over POK). I doubt they got there by accident; it was most definitely an aggressive stance by us. We would have got away with it had there been no opportunity to shoot down the F-16.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11313
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Jul 2019 13:08

Its not Wing Commander Abhinandan but the fact we took only 1 shot at that F-16, but could have sprayed BVR missiles to disperse the other F-16's. The IAF seems to have the IA's philosophy Ek Goli Ek Dhusman.

What no one is debating does the Amraam deserves the name slammer after atleast 5 misses on the SU30 plus I think 1 more miss on Abhinandan's wingman.

If Wing Commander Abhinandan's wing man or other Bison had fired R-77's to disperse the other F-16's. Pakis would have a fig leaf to hide the F-16 kill.
But all this is good in hindsight, ROE, Authorization, does the PAF have any more fighters coming all this needed to happen in a flash. I hope we have updated ROE/ Tactics and I pretty sure PAF will get caught next time and there will be a next time- since PAF fighters again have started to come close to the LOC and come out nanga.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11313
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jul 2019 12:26

Interesting reading the BR article , Air Marshal Harish Masand has similair questions

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/today/opinions/1380-balakot-naushera.html

Another issue worth consideration internally by the IAF is on the relative positioning and presence of other aircraft in this interceptor group. Where were the other formation members when Wing Commander Abhinandan was engaging or chasing the F-16 and what did they do and observe? Surely, the radio calls between them and from/to the situation controller would prove something towards our claim of downing the F-16. Also, if the MiG-21 was shot down immediately after the F-16, surely the F-16 wreckage should also be close to where the MiG-21 came down just a few kilometers across the LoC. If that be so, why is it that we have not been able to acquire the imagery of that crash site/wreckage? Also, why didn’t Abhinandan launch the longer range R-77 missile instead of choosing to chase the F-16 for an R-73 CCM launch, as has been reported. Lastly, the training in the IAF had also taught us that a good fighter pilot never leaves behind a formation member and even stays with the downed teammate till he is rescued, if fuel and other conditions permit. So, did his formation members stay with him at least till his MiG-21 was shot at and couldn’t they together threaten the attacking aircraft?

I am certain the IAF is pondering over these issues based on the facts known only to it and, hopefully someday, we will hear the whole story, perhaps in a box-office movie, without politicization of this entire episode.


I am sure we must have by now got a lot more evidence, like videos of wreckage, PAF pilot in hospital etc. We must presue this issue till it is acknowleged by all that F-16 went down and what exactly happened on 27 Feb 19 morning.

Quite frankly it our penchant for following rules with respect to Pakis got in the way.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23758
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jul 2019 15:41

Pakistan won't open airspace until India de-escalates - Economic Times
Pakistan has told India that it will not open its airspace for commercial flights until New Delhi removes its fighter jets from forward IAF airbases, Pakistan's Aviation Secretary Shahrukh Nusrat has informed a parliamentary committee.

Pakistan fully closed its airspace on February 26 after the Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets struck a Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) terrorist training camp in Balakot following the Pulwama terror attack in Kashmir.

Aviation Secretary Nusrat, who is also the Director General of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), on Thursday informed the Senate Standing Committee on Aviation that his department has intimated Indian officials that Pakistani airspace would remain unavailable for use by India until the country withdraws its fighter jets from forward positions, Dawn News reported.

"The Indian government approached asking us to open the airspace. We conveyed our concerns that first India must withdraw its fighter planes placed forward," Nusrat told the committee.

He further apprised the committee that Indian officials have contacted Pakistan requesting it to lift the airspace restrictions.

"However, Indian officials have been told that Indian airbases are still laden with fighter jets and Pakistan will not allow resumption of flight operations from India until their removal,” said Nusrat.


After the restrictions, all the passenger flights are being diverted to alternative routes by India, The Express Tribune reported.

The CAA official also contested India's claim that Delhi had opened its airspace for Pakistan, the report said.

"Pakistani flights from Thailand have not been restored since the closure of the Indian airspace. Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flights for Malaysia also remain suspended," the CAA DG informed the committee.

Last month, Pakistan gave special permission to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's VVIP flight to use its airspace for his official trip to attend the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation summit in Bishkek, the capital of Kyrgyzstan.

However Prime Minister Modi's VVIP aircraft avoided flying over Pakistan. Earlier, Pakistan had allowed India's former External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj to fly directly though Pakistani airspace to participate in the meeting of SCO foreign ministers in Bishkek on May 21.

India aviation industry has suffered huge losses due to the airspace ban by Pakistan.

On Thursday, Civil Aviation Minister Hardeep Singh Puri told Parliament that due to the closure of Pakistan airspace, Air India had to spend an extra Rs 430 crore on longer routes.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18666
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Jul 2019 16:17

All this has already been addressed.

Abhi had no time to work his radar to get a long range lock and pursue that. He managed to get close enough for his R73E to work and that was that.
Second, his wingman heard the R/T call to turn back, and assumed Abhi would do so too. He didn't. I have said this before - Abhi went all out for a kill, he ruthlessly put himself in harms way for that shot. There is a reason why there are reports of IAF putting him up for a VrC.

Aditya_V wrote:Interesting reading the BR article , Air Marshal Harish Masand has similair questions

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/today/opinions/1380-balakot-naushera.html

Another issue worth consideration internally by the IAF is on the relative positioning and presence of other aircraft in this interceptor group. Where were the other formation members when Wing Commander Abhinandan was engaging or chasing the F-16 and what did they do and observe? Surely, the radio calls between them and from/to the situation controller would prove something towards our claim of downing the F-16. Also, if the MiG-21 was shot down immediately after the F-16, surely the F-16 wreckage should also be close to where the MiG-21 came down just a few kilometers across the LoC. If that be so, why is it that we have not been able to acquire the imagery of that crash site/wreckage? Also, why didn’t Abhinandan launch the longer range R-77 missile instead of choosing to chase the F-16 for an R-73 CCM launch, as has been reported. Lastly, the training in the IAF had also taught us that a good fighter pilot never leaves behind a formation member and even stays with the downed teammate till he is rescued, if fuel and other conditions permit. So, did his formation members stay with him at least till his MiG-21 was shot at and couldn’t they together threaten the attacking aircraft?

I am certain the IAF is pondering over these issues based on the facts known only to it and, hopefully someday, we will hear the whole story, perhaps in a box-office movie, without politicization of this entire episode.


I am sure we must have by now got a lot more evidence, like videos of wreckage, PAF pilot in hospital etc. We must presue this issue till it is acknowleged by all that F-16 went down and what exactly happened on 27 Feb 19 morning.

Quite frankly it our penchant for following rules with respect to Pakis got in the way.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18666
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 12 Jul 2019 16:21

Sqdrn Ldr Sameer has excellent posts on medium as well. Print carries a concise record of the below. We debated in detail about these reports on the forum already.

fanne wrote:please visit sir Sameer Joshi's twitter. There are more update on 27th Feb dog fight. Apparently, 1 SU30MKI was targeted by multiple F-16s (fired 5 BVR?), some of them turned cold (I guess the nearest one), to lure the SU30MKI in thinking F-16 is turning away and stay on the station. The Sukhoi pilot rightly assessed the whole situation (I hope it was technology led, meaning all Sukhoi's have it and is not dependent on the pilot's interpretation), and evaded all 5. The TSPAF is shocked and in denial, and this one, in there feverent hope they keep claiming as shot down. In their calculation su30mki cannot evade 5 AIM-120, fired from multiple F-16, the whole ambush was pre-planned by them and assuring them of almost 100% success. That did not come to pass. Then it became a favorable story to cover their loss of F-16 (for their awam, world, and whoever else is listening).
I guess this also caused the confusion. One formation of PAF was bleating that a SU30MKI have been shot (as the engagement went per plan for TSPAF) - The terbala dam one. The other F-16 formation engaged by Abhinanadan, shot F-16 double seater. The other group must have taken time to shout on radio that they may have their plane down till they 100% confirmed. If the shot plane had the leader, it would have taken some time for the TSPAF to assess and inform TSPA to search for the downed plane. In the meantime, second plane down, 2 seater, 2 pilots, fits neatly with the SU down (TSP has an old habit crying victory even before war is over, perhaps a gazi syndrome, where they want to take credit of killing a kuffar, which in their book is a s big as overall victory itself). They kept on bleating about the second plane, three pilots in custody etc., locals beating them, perhaps with active indulgence from TSPA (as far as they knew, it was the enemy plane and enemy pilot). If the above sequence is right, the bravado of the few TSPAF personnel, led to the killing of their own pilots.

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1664
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 16 Jul 2019 21:16

Pakistan opens airspace for Indian flights

Does this mean that India has de-escalated i.e. moved IAF aircraft back from forward operating bases? AFAIK, this was the major sticking point that Pakistan had on the continued closure of their airspace.


Return to “Military Issues Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests