Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Atmavik
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 05 Mar 2019 03:22

UlanBatori wrote:"No country except Turkey": Are they referring to the nation of Erdoganstan, or the flight characteristics of their own Air Fauj? What did Turkey say to make them so happy?


turkish FM stood by bakistan eating sheesh kaboob. Tarek fath tells a story of how turkey sent a ship load of war material to pakis in 65 as it turns out it was all the left over WWI junk.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2019 03:23

OK, we will be spared the noise of an Olympics in India - after the Asian Games SNAFU. Win-win!

Deny visas for all Ophishials of these organizations also to come to India or transit through India. Make them Personae Non Grata. India needs to learn to play hardball as a sport.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 05 Mar 2019 03:25, edited 1 time in total.

vijayk
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby vijayk » 05 Mar 2019 03:24

Looks like our AP7 Fake news is just like AP Fake politics of Naidu and Jagan. Deleting the link
Last edited by vijayk on 05 Mar 2019 05:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby pralay » 05 Mar 2019 03:28

sudeepj wrote:Here is another link of WCo Abhinandana being taken away in by PakMil. Whats notable is the excited chatter in the mob surrounding him '..doosra banda pakdo.. doosra banda pakdo..' Indicating there were two ejections and there was indeed a second pilot.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569
Posting only for the record and perhaps some one can translate the Punjabi portions of the conversation.

There is certainly chanting especially after PA drove Abhinandan away but what others reply to it is not clear

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2019 03:29

vijayk wrote:https://www.ap7am.com/lv-309606-first-visual-proof-of-indias-air-strike-on-jem-camp-in-balakot-in-pakistan.html

FWIW ... Our AP7 channel got the first visual proof or they made it up


COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could u b persuaded to browse a FEW pages back b4 posting such wisdom, pls, birather? C above re: Rice-Eating, hain? That "National Defence" site and its loud-mouthed announcer and his even-worse Sidee are National Disasters.

Hint: The "After" image is during construction of the Palais des Goat-Buggers. Please delete your post, National Defence is an absolute disgrace.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 05 Mar 2019 03:34

One thing to consider, the entire pylon has come off, so it cannot be a voluntarily release.

is there somewhere in the net, we can find out sensor fused kit developed by countries? So far i could find only US and Russian.

Wonder if any European or Turkish? or Chinese.
Last edited by nam on 05 Mar 2019 03:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby saip » 05 Mar 2019 03:35

Rahul M wrote:Just check flight path of THA 341 from Bangkok to krachi. It crossed India and then did a u-turn south of Iran pak border !! Flew almost the entire length of balochistan before turning back ! Holy smokes, pakis must be shit scared of IN OR IAF coming at karachi from off the coast of Gujarat.


Look at TH342 (from KHI to Bangkok). They are forcing them to fly west some 200 miles and then make a u-turn and then fly over India.

This is C-R-A-Z-Y.
Last edited by saip on 05 Mar 2019 03:35, edited 1 time in total.

UlanBatori
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2019 03:35

pralay wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Here is another link of WCo Abhinandana being taken away in by PakMil. Whats notable is the excited chatter in the mob surrounding him '..doosra banda pakdo.. doosra banda pakdo..' Indicating there were two ejections and there was indeed a second pilot.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569
Posting only for the record and perhaps some one can translate the Punjabi portions of the conversation.

There is certainly chanting especially after PA drove Abhinandan away but what others reply to it is not clear


Going back to the initial Fog Of War b4 the SpinDoctors took over:
1. Pakis reported that the downed Indian plane had 2 pilots - or that there were 2 Indian planes downed. Then it transpired that **THREE* parachutes were seen.
2. They declared that One Indian Pilot had been captured, another was on the run - and another Indian plane had been downed, and the pilot was "critically injured" and in hospital.
3. THEN it started dawning on them that the Indian plane was a single-seater! So the other pilot(s) were not Indian, which means they were:
(a) Iranian
(b) Djinn
(c) Horror of Horrors!!!! PAF!!! :eek: :shock:

Too late to retract Claims 1 &2, so they shut up. The truth started spreading: the Momeen had beaten not ONE but TWO Pakistani Air Force Pilots to death. One the son of a PAF Air Marshal. The other now reported to be (a) Blakwater mercenary (b) Crown Price of Jordan. :rotfl:

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2019 03:35

nam wrote:One thing to consider, the entire pylon has come off, so it cannot be a voluntarily release.

Still thrilled about the 320 kg F-16 part lying in the pumpkin patch? :rotfl:

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 05 Mar 2019 03:38

UlanBatori wrote:
nam wrote:One thing to consider, the entire pylon has come off, so it cannot be a voluntarily release.

Still thrilled about the 320 kg F-16 part lying in the pumpkin patch? :rotfl:


No harm in finding out!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 05 Mar 2019 03:41

khan wrote:There is a strange “Jordan Aviation” plane over Baki air-space R55541/JAV5541. Wikipedia says they do charters/wet-lease.

Just landed in Lahore. F-16 spares?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 03:42

IAF Chief - Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa briefs media on Air Strike


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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Mar 2019 03:44

^^UBji you had illuminated me on this. My view point is that they would have not been murdered by mob. They didnt kill endian pilot and PA benevolently saved the abhi, may be someone wanted to confirm if Paki tea making skill is as good as Endian. And PA would be on the toes of all three parachutes. then, the guy would have said AOA/Kalma what not, his poonjabi accent would have been evident if not his dress, which would have calmed they lynch mob and if that was not the case the piolots wont have minded putting the pant down, esp after getting the plane down. I suspect they were murdered by PA on their way to hospital and they're just using the lynchmob. ISI/PA are masters of such games, esp when to do it to their own

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby John » 05 Mar 2019 04:04

khan wrote:
khan wrote:There is a strange “Jordan Aviation” plane over Baki air-space R55541/JAV5541. Wikipedia says they do charters/wet-lease.

Just landed in Lahore. F-16 spares?

Pakistan PAF chief “We also downed Indian F-21 that was 2nd fighter that was shot down” :)

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 04:06

khan wrote:
khan wrote:There is a strange “Jordan Aviation” plane over Baki air-space R55541/JAV5541. Wikipedia says they do charters/wet-lease.

Just landed in Lahore. F-16 spares?

That is a B762 (acronym for Boeing 767-200ER).
See here ---> https://www.radarbox24.com/data/flights ... 1232020641

Jordan Aviation has one Boeing 767-200ER.
See here ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Aviation

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 05 Mar 2019 04:09

Where is that video

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2019 04:10

Rakesh, Time to close the thread as we are not gaining any signal and its all noise?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 05 Mar 2019 04:10

Rakesh wrote:That is a B762 (acronym for Boeing 767-200ER).
See here ---> https://www.radarbox24.com/data/flights ... 1232020641

Jordan Aviation has one Boeing 767-200ER.
See here ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Aviation

Yes, it is a wide-body. Regarding the choice of the aircraft, I am pretty sure it can carry a lot of spares in its cargo compartment and since this is a Jordanian company, they will do what they are told by the Jordians and will not balk at transporting military parts.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Mar 2019 04:10

Khalsa wrote:Where is that video


see if you can translate the punjabi..
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 04:14

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Time to close the thread as we are not gaining any signal and its all noise?

Agreed. We can reopen or start a new thread if required. Only the MiG-21 thread needs to be still open.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 04:35

Re-opening thread. Sorry Ramana-ji, I will take the heat if this thread goes south again.

Posters, please stop watching NDTV and giving yourself blood pressure.

Please read EVERY WORD in this tweet from Saurav Jha before posting again.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1102470467107995648 ---> So Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa clearly says, "If we bombed the jungle, what was the need for him to respond?" Precisely.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Mar 2019 04:55

Thank you mods, the operation is not over. To me, Pakistani strategic calculation behind Pulwama means they will come at us again and give us another opportunity.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby khan » 05 Mar 2019 05:06

I suggest summary banning of anyone who comes here and:
1. Asks for “proof” of the air-strikes.
2. Regurgitates anything that has been discussed before (for eg. Old Satellite pictures)

Anyone posting here has a responsibility to educate themselves by reading what has been posted before they stumbled upon this forum.

That will keep the noise down.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudhan » 05 Mar 2019 05:20

Birathers,

If not already seen, Strongly recommend watching this segment video of our PM ( Speech in Ahmedabad). Never seen him so animated. You can see him shaking when making some really really strong statements.

Watch till the end. It ain't over for the pakis.

Pakis must be outta clean shalwars by now..


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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2019 05:29

jamwal wrote:Sensor Fuzed Munition Assembly.

I am unable to find anything which looks like this dual pod system. It doesn't seem to be very heavy, there's hardly any impact on soft ground. Or was the plane close to ground when it separated. In that case, there should be more debris nearby.
Almost everything about Sensor Fuzed Munition is pointing towards CBU-97 type of cluster bombs. IAF has a similar bomb but it's rounder, stubbier and filed with small bomblets and is meant for anti-vehicle role.

Upload date is 27th Feb and India lost no plane that day by own admission nor by paki claims. So it is more than likely that it's from a paki aircraft. If it weighs 320kg, then it's quite likely that it was on a fighter plane, not many drones can carry it.


Jamwal see if you can dig out anything about the HAFR-1/2
http://pakdef.org/psd-12-hafr-1/

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Trikaal » 05 Mar 2019 05:31

UlanBatori wrote:OK, we will be spared the noise of an Olympics in India - after the Asian Games SNAFU. Win-win!

Deny visas for all Ophishials of these organizations also to come to India or transit through India. Make them Personae Non Grata. India needs to learn to play hardball as a sport.

What snafu, it was a good decision. And if they ban us, then so be it. We will see how long this holier than thou attitude holds up when it's their people getting bombed. Time to play hardball.
As for the question about India hosting Olympics, I am glad if this helps us dodge that bullet. Olympics are a money drain. U take up too much debt, and in the end u r left with huge white elephants. We can find better ways than to splurge on ungrateful people who will always find something lacking anyway. Good riddance I say.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby salaam » 05 Mar 2019 05:34

sudhan wrote:Birathers,

If not already seen, Strongly recommend watching this segment video of our PM ( Speech in Ahmedabad). Never seen him so animated. You can see him shaking when making some really really strong statements.

Watch till the end. It ain't over for the pakis.

Pakis must be outta clean shalwars by now..

In the end he was indeed agitated, never saw him like this...

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2019 05:36

Guys , please check what CAS says here. This anyday matters more than what some donkey in NYT or anywhere says (or rather doesn't say).

https://youtu.be/7OAjroPhEMU?t=521

Chief of Air Staff, Dhanoa: They have lost a F-16 aircraft in that combat, so obviously they have been using that aircraft against us.

This is it. Full stop. End of Story.

You want to find info that corroborates the Chief's statement? Do so. But don't come and whine there is no proof, evidence etc.

The IAF monitored the entire combat using AWACS and has far greater resources (TECHINT, HUMINT) to back up its statements.


https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 36286.html

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was at a height of 15,000 feet in his MiG-21 jet when he spotted a Pakistan Air Force F-16 at 8,000 feet, near Nowshera, close to the Line of Control (LoC), on Wednesday morning...................

An air-to-air missile called “R-73” was fired from the MiG. The dogfight rose to an elevation of 26,000 feet and then swooped down a few thousand feet and then rose again.
............................
The entire thing was being tracked through an airborne radar.
............................

Meanwhile, a missile fired from the MiG-21 hit an F-16 jet that was downed.


Understand the following.

1. There is no onus on them to give away classified capabilities by providing further details, for the sake of proving the reality, which is that PAF today is down by 1 of its best aircraft taken down by the IAF in A2A combat.[/u]


2. These are the facts. I appreciate many of you were not around in 1999 when similar events occurred and the Pakistanis did ALL they could to disguise their involvement of the regular Military, hide their casualties and pretend they didn't even get hit by the IAF. Later on, we got information corroborating each and every thing the IAF said. This is what India did to force Pakistan to take its own soldiers back

3. https://twitter.com/shivkunalverma/stat ... 8780333058
We had eight POWs after the Kargil War. Trouble was Musharraf was saying they are not our men. The only way to send them back was to force his hand, so I was asked to film them & release the footage. Luckily immediate about turn.. PAF sent a plane and took these simple men back!

Image

4. India DID NOT PLAY THE PR game with these peoples lives and sent them back.
One side, the Indian side, wages a just and open war. The other side, aka Pakistan is into propaganda and psy-ops.

5. This is a comment by a neutral and very well respected analyst.
His comment, "My sources in Pakistan do not want to discuss the topic, first they said a fighter was down, a F-16, now nothing, they will not respond on the topic anymore".

6. So, understand the situation. By all means puncture the pys-ops, but dont complain the warfighters should give away classified abilities to win the "perception war". Nor will they compromise on their moral code of conduct. Understand that and then post.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Mar 2019 05:37

Amen

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 05 Mar 2019 05:44

First and foremost, if you don't believe the IAF chief, I suggest you go sign up for the Deaf and Dumb forum and stop posting here.
Secondly, given the track record of Pakis, who took 11 years to merely acknowledge that their own were killed in Kargil - I know which set of soldiers have integrity.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 05 Mar 2019 06:42

sudeepj wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Where is that video


see if you can translate the punjabi..
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569


Why am I going to random videos of egg vs lava on Facebook why I click on that

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 05 Mar 2019 06:46

In this video, there is a lot of talk about "doosra banda", which on the balance of probability is the F-16 pilot. Obviously they ejected with a few hundred meters of each other.
Also, when WC Abhi got into the car, although I couldn't see, it appears that someone was still trying to hit him. Someone then asked this attacker to back off so that Abhi could be captured alive.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Mar 2019 06:46

Khalsa wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
see if you can translate the punjabi..
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569


Why am I going to random videos of egg vs lava on Facebook why I click on that


Not sure.. something wrong on your side. I can see it.. here is another link.

https://www.facebook.com/NoonGhaziClub/ ... 893550569/

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2019 06:52

Karan M wrote:Guys , please check what CAS says here. This anyday matters more than what some donkey in NYT or anywhere says (or rather doesn't say).

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was at a height of 15,000 feet in his MiG-21 jet when he spotted a Pakistan Air Force F-16 at 8,000 feet, near Nowshera, close to the Line of Control (LoC), on Wednesday morning...................
The dogfight rose to an elevation of 26,000 feet and then swooped down a few thousand feet and then rose again. Meanwhile, a missile fired from the MiG-21 hit an F-16 jet that was downed.


Karanji, the up-and-down 7000 feet / 8000 feet to 26K and back (Paki tried to shake off MiG, failed..) corroborates something posted b4 (which unfortunately ended with a political rant so it lost credibility IMO).

Note what the COAS does NOT state: Why did the MiG crash? He could have said: "Was hit by an American AMRAAM / AIM fired by Paki F-16" but he did not say that.

So I still maintain that it was a debris hit. I don't think ground AA fire hits anything at 26K feet. And there were no SAM trails. Even Pakis don't fire AA when there is a close-in dogfight in progress: it is worse than lynching their own downed pilots on the ground.
Let Pakis claim credible "kill" from their F-16 if they can.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 05 Mar 2019 07:09

prime minister,s body language is clearly saying in the Ahmedabad speech this is not over by any means . More fireworks are on the way,timing unknown.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2019 07:13

I understand many of you need to understand how the IAF would find out what it fought

The information is well publicized and one does not even need to ask for classified information beyond what the IAF has revealed

Reference 1. Tri-Service Press Conference, Air Vice Marshal RGK Kapoor.

1. PAF F-16s only deploy AMRAAMs. We recovered wreckage. They used F-16s and they lied about it.
2. We have electronic means to determine what we fought.

https://youtu.be/6IDvuUgFnl8?t=329

AVM Kapoor wrote:
Air Force ke paas kafi tarah se hum pata kar sakte hain ki konsa jahaj ud raha hain, aur humari airspace ki taraf a rahan hain.

The Air Force has many ways to determine which aircraft is flying and coming towards our airspace.

Electronic signature hota hain har jahaj ka

Every aircraft has an electronic signature

Us electronic signature ko match karta hua paya jiski wajeh se keh sakte hain, ki F-16 is mission main shamil the

We found the F-16 to match the signature, hence which is why we can say the F-16s were participants in this mission


The Phalcon

Radar, Identification Friend or Foe, Radar detection (ESM), and even voice comms (CSM)

https://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_sp ... eView.html

Israeli manufacturers of the system say long-range, high performance, multi-sensor Phalcon AEW introduces a new level of performance to airborne early warning, tactical surveillance of airborne and surface targets, and the gathering of signal intelligence.

This is primarily done through a unique integration of sensors. The Phalcon's four main sensors are the AESA radar, IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT.

A unique fusion technique continuously cross-correlates data generated by all sensors. This data is combined with an automatically initiated active search by one sensor for specific targets detected by other sensors.


The DRDO AEW &CS also has a comprehensive range of sensors.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/pro ... ol-system/

Mission system control (MSC) is the brain of the AEW&C system, as it incorporates all the data from sensors and other systems to control the whole system. It assesses threats using data received from the on-board sensors and other sources, and presents the Air Situation Picture (ASP).

It manages the whole communication system of the AEW&C system. The MSC can record the data and play back the same for conducting mission analysis. The Intercept Control Segment (ICS) integrated into the MSC will carry out recovery operations by guiding interceptors and vector strike aircraft.

The system mainly comprises of a primary radar and secondary surveillance radar (SSR/IFF). The SSR provides Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and Communication Support Measures (CSM). It identifies and classifies the threats based on the emissions from them, and also serves as a Friend or Foe identification system.

The Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) which is integrated into the ESM system, Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and Counter Measures Dispensing system (CMDS) forms a Self Protection Suite (SPS). The Data Handling and Display System (DHDS) will present the Air Situation Picture on Operator Work Station (OWS) and will provide communication facilities to interact with the system.


In short, both the Phalcon and DRDO Netra have a range of sensors - active (radar, IFF) and passive (ESM, CSM) to detect the enemy aircraft, track it, determine its type and keep monitoring what's going on

2nd. How is Battle Assessment done?

Apart from actual visual confirmation, then wreckage, HUMINT and techint, this is what AWACS and controllers do.

https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabil ... /AWACS.pdf

Desert Storm
In additionto providing senior leadership with time-critical information on the actions of enemy forces, E-3 controllers assisted in 38 of the 40 air-to-air kills recorded during the conflict.


Trends in Air to Air combat
John Stillon
https://csbaonline.org/uploads/document ... eport-.pdf

Watching Iraqi aircraft takeoff allowed E-3 crews to immediately identify them as hostile, while the E-3’s comprehensive communications suite and large mission crews, between thir-teen and nineteen air weapon controllers and other specialists, allowed them to communicate this information and provide dedicated support to multiple coalition fighter crews simultane-ously via ultra-high frequency (UHF) voice radio links. Coalition ROE allowed combat pilots to engage any aircraft declared hostile by an E-3 crew without the need for further identification. But if the target was not declared hostile by an AWACS, then two independent sources were required, and only the F-15Cs with both NCTR and the AN/APX-76 IFF interrogator could meet the ROE on their own. This greatly increased the tactical freedom of action and confi-dence of coalition pilots.Another important E-3 contribution, as outlined above, was providing coalition pilots with significant advanced knowledge of enemy aircraft position and heading long before the pilots’ own radars could detect their opponents.


So its routine for the USAF, and all other advanced AF to use AWACS to determine post event battle damage analysis and determine whether their pilots succeeded in air to air. They can keep monitoring even as the enemy aircraft crashes in enemy territory.

It is beyond stupid of XYZ to magically expect the IAF to fly over enemy territory, stop the plane, have it hover like a helicopter, hop out, collect wreckage and then hop back over the LOC to keep Pakistani idiots and reporters in NYT etc happy!


"A MiG-21 Bison is simply too old"

The Bison as repeatedly stated in this thread, has a HMCS + R73E missile combination, which allow a skilled pilot, aware of the systems strengths to make quick shots!

A helmet sight which can move the radar and missile seeker to "see" what the pilot sees. The pilot has to be skilled enough to use it effectively!

Chapter 2 discussed the significant advances in short-range IR missile capabilities during the 1970s and 1980s. These advances have continued over the past two decades. The most modern IR missiles are capable of being cued by Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS) and turned toward the designated target and locked on after launch. Many also feature thrust vector con-trol, which bestows extreme maneuverability, and imaging focal plane array IR seekers that recognize and home in on target aircraft images rather than simple heat sources. These mis-siles allow pilots to launch highly lethal IR missiles at any opponent they can see, even if thatopponent is behind them.48 With an increasing number of modern combat aircraft equipped with missile-approach warning systems, it is likely that a pilot under attack will have sufficient time to target an attacker and launch a missile in return. Once both aircraft have “launch and leave” missiles in the air, prospects are good that the short-range engagement will result in “mutual kills,” with short-range combat kill ratios near 1:1. This suggests we may have reached a point in the development of short-range air combat technologies where serious, capable adversaries will attempt to avoid it and instead seek advantage in superior BVR capabilities.


PILOT SKILL - this is the most important part.

A report way back on how the IAF uses its Bisons.

15 years back to be precise!

http://www.dedefensa.org/forum/linde-se ... erre-vs-us
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-18-04.asp

The real story behind Indian Air Force Superiority over US Air Force - USAF underestimated Indians as Iraqis or Iranians

Balaji Reddy, Special Correspondent
June 18, 2004
“Surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots” stunned the US Air Force. A June 2 article in the magazine Inside the Air Force reported –“The exercise, in which US F-15Cs were said to have been defeated more than 90 per cent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF, is causing US Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots while bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the United States.”
The magazine quoted US officials who participated in the exercise as saying it should “provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned US air superiority.”

On the face of it, the performance of the IAF, with its oft-reported air crashes in an aging, non-American fleet, might seem surprising. But US officials told the magazine that the Indians were much better than they had bargained for.

“What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,” the article quoted Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, as saying. “And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.”

“Red air” refers to the way the US Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. US officials emphasised that such simulation deliberately handicap US planes and pilots against the enemy because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft.


In Cope Thunder, four F-15Cs were pitted against 10 or 12 of same model Indian fighters such as the Mirage 2000, MIG-27 and MIG-29s in offensive and defensive counter air scenarios. But the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the Sukhoi SU-30K Flanker, US officials said.

“What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,” the magazine quoted a US airman who took part in the exercise as saying.


While acknowledging the performance of their Indian colleagues, who they will meet again in another air combat exercise in Alaska next month, the US airmen also made a major pitch for the F/A-22 aircraft that the US government has been slow to embrace because of its cost and lack of a perceived threat.

“The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries’] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,” Col. Snodgrass said. “We’ve taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it’s now time to move to the next generation.”


http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-co ... cle02.html

3rd Wing Explains 'Cope India' Exercise

© Aviation Week & Space Technology; aviationnow.com

By David A. Fulghum, Elmendorf AFB

[April 10, 2004]

These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF's airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose. Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.
...................

"The outcome of the exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected," Snowden says. "India had developed its own air tactics somewhat in a vacuum. They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force. That was silly.

"They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change [tactics in flight]," he says. "They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. [Using all their assets,] they built a very good [radar] picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll [their aircraft] in and out."


"When we saw that they were a more professional air force, we realized that within the constraints of the exercise we were going to have a very difficult time," Snowden says. "In general, it looked like they ran a broad spectrum of tactics and they were adaptive. They would analyze what we were doing and then try something else. They weren't afraid to bring the strikers in high or low. They would move them around so that we could never anticipate from day to day what we were going to see."


http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-ia ... cle01.html

USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training

© Inside The Air Force

By Hampton Stephens

The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to these officials.

Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.

“What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,” Snodgrass said. “And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.”

“Red air” refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate the enemy, known as “red” forces, in air combat training are required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.

“We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone else’s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we call that ‘red air,’” Snodgrass said.

.....

One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training regimen does not include a concept of “red air.” Instead, “they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against somebody else’s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft,” Neubeck said.


Bottomline. A MiG-21 FLOWN BY AN IAF PILOT CAN KILL ANY TARGET IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. It has knocked down a F-16. Understand how its possible, how the IAF knows it has occurred and spread the word, and fight disinformation!

sudeepj
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Mar 2019 07:15

Suresh S wrote:prime minister,s body language is clearly saying in the Ahmedabad speech this is not over by any means . More fireworks are on the way,timing unknown.


Yes.. Our PM is also a humanitarian and cares deeply about the lives of soldiers, he will choose an appropriate time, method and place that does not cause needless loss of life on our side. But rest assured, the countdown for the end of Pakistan has begun. They will remember the Pulwama attack like the world remembers Pearl Harbor.

Prakash2
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Prakash2 » 05 Mar 2019 07:16

Last edited by Prakash2 on 05 Mar 2019 07:24, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2019 07:17

Whatever it is , even the pylon seems to have ripped off

ritesh
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ritesh » 05 Mar 2019 07:32

One thing i dont understand is why give an opportunity to pak and pak pasand opposition to deny. I public retribution was require after uri to unequivocally confirm the pain. But again a remote location was chosen.

Why dont the GoI just play cat and mouse game by releasing the pre strike photos from non military sources and throw the challenge to anybody incld pakis to come up with latest imagery. At least ppl would get busy instead of mouthing off turd logic.


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