Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

ramana
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Aug 2019 00:51

vishvak wrote:
prompted an IAF modernization binge

Thankfully IAF has focus set on important things like above, and including balakot air strikes, and avoided giving out anything more than necessary minimum info- thereby completely not indulging in throwing stones in mud (arguing with pakis) or worse jumping in to wrestle with any disinformation et cetera to see who is hit with how much mud i.e. avoided bad<worse<worse-than-that situation.



Vishvak Quite a sensible observation.
However I am disappointed that operation details of Balakot strike were leaked to deluded Indian presstitutes some of whom frequent here.

If you look at the sum total of IAF people involved from airmen to pilots to senior officers it would be about 200 people. The possibility of press contact is only a handful of upper echelons.
What these 'good' people don't understand is revealing the SPICE 2000 was used is not the problem but the use of special Israeli weapons is definitely a folly. Why?
Because it exposes them to US pressure which was unnecessary.

So these handful have done a great disfavor by revealing information to their favorite Live fist or Dead Hands.
Hopefully they (the officers and presstitutes) are unhappy and introspect.

There is still a war going on.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 01 Aug 2019 02:21

Cain Marko wrote:
Bart S wrote:
What other choice did they have? It's not that funny if you think about it, with Russia's refusal to integrate other weapons that the IAF wants.

Can you show some sources where there is clarity that Russia won't allow 3rd party weapons integration?

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-ai ... rks-russia

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 01 Aug 2019 02:27

From Livefist:

Russia’s misgivings go deeper than just concerns over technology security or being kept ostensibly out of the IAF’s re-weaponisation drive on a Russian fighter. As Livefist reported, the IAF is looking to fully replace the Su-30 MKI’s current close combat missile — the Russian-built Vympel R-73 — with the ASRAAM in phases, and then standardise the ASRAAM across its fleet of combat aircraft.

While the India-Pakistan air skirmish over Jammu & Kashmir on February 27 gave the R-73 missile a new glow — with the IAF quickly ordering fresh stocks of this and the RVV-AE medium-range missile for its MiG and Su-30 fleets — the order was more by way of topping up reserves. What Russia will actually deem as jeopardised by the ASRAAM-Su-30 integration effort is an ongoing pitch to sell a newer generation version of the R-73 to India — the RVV-MD, along with longer range variants.

Unlike a radar-guided missile, the heat-seeking ASRAAM doesn’t require complex modifications — the IAF, as Livefist reported, has already modified the software on a pair of Su-30s to deploy the ASRAAM. A first test could take place later this year. The ASRAAM, already integrated on IAF Jaguars, will see test firings begin this year, with a move to arm a limited number of Hawk trainers to move forward too.

It is unclear if Russia’s concerns over the ASRAAM integration will escalate into any kind of flashpoint. The trajectory of the India-Russia relationship on the Su-30 suggests India is using its heft to exercise weapons flexibility. Russia has supplied 222 Su-30 kits to India for assembly at HAL’s license-building facility in Maharashtra. The Indian Air Force has formally asked Russia for 18 more, which will cement India’s already significant place as the world’s largest — by far — operator of the Su-30 type. Add the pipeline proposal to upgrade at least 84 Su-30s to the ‘Super 30’ standard, and you have a slice of the defence pie that won’t stop giving any time soon.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 01 Aug 2019 02:31

Cain Marko wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Indian Media is playing up the part where Paki F-16 launched 5 AMRAAMS at 1 Su-30MKI out of NEZ and have been running down the R-77. That is in addition to 1 missing Mig 21Bison - Wing Commander ABhinandan's wing man.

Yeah, the R77 bashing was on cue and some on brf have been happy to be a part of that as well. What is hilarious is that one of the first things the IAF did after balakot is buy tons of R Series missiles from Russia.


the IAF had no choice. Air to air missiles also have limited service lives and they expire based on both calendar years as well as number of hours in flight. With the number of CAP sorties with live missiles that the IAF would have mounted, quite a few of their older stocks would have come close to expiry or would have expired. And no new missile integration is feasible in a short time duration for the Bison, MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI. Even if Derby-ER integration goes ahead, it will be at least 2 years before it actually is in service. the IAF is hopefully trying to make the best of the situation by going with the newer variants of the R-73E, RVV-AE and R-27 with whatever mods the Russians have introduced.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 01 Aug 2019 09:29

^^^
New weapon integration easily takes 5-years ... if we count not just R&D, but also SOP development, inventory build up, squadron FOC, etc. Not simple.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2019 11:15

Bart S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Can you show some sources where there is clarity that Russia won't allow 3rd party weapons integration?

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-ai ... rks-russia

Interesting. I had missed this. Well. The russkis will shoot themselves in the foot at this rate.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Aug 2019 11:59

Hardly any country allows this especially Nato Vs Russians. Its unfortunate, its like can we have Brahmos on p-8I - would make a deadly combination but not likely.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Aug 2019 02:39

Aditya_V wrote:Hardly any country allows this especially Nato Vs Russians. Its unfortunate, its like can we have Brahmos on p-8I - would make a deadly combination but not likely.

Quite true, good point. Holding the Russians as some kind of villains in such a context is seems a bit strange.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2019 03:00

They are reneging on their agreement. Our Su-30 deal explicitly asked for and allowed us to integrate what we wished on the platform.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2019 03:38

KaranM,
This kind of everything on all things type of thinking hurts.

Su-30MKI USP is BVR AAM. For BVR has R-77 and Astra.
For WVR has R-73. If the two are working hardly will ever end up needing WVR.
Its hardly likely you need ASRAAM tomorrow on Su-30MKI.

So why upset a good relationship with an unlikely thing?
First get the ASRAAM working on other aircraft and then talk about Su-30.
Instead the first talk is about SU-30.

Must be some anti-Russian coterie member.
And before people get hot about that there are such coteries.
Three types: US, Russian, French/Israel

The fourth one for British is muted as they don't make much stuff.
Now with ASRAAM the are back.
No one bats for India stuff!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Aug 2019 13:59

Rumours of fresh surgical strikes

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Aug 2019 14:24

Where is it not on any media? Only on Baba Banaras. Wish what he says is the truth

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Aug 2019 15:11

Ramana, R73E works but is also a well known and widely supplied system and chances are that it can be diverted by a heavy usage of flares.
US has had R73E access for ages and making countermeasures to that is easier. Who knows, AF may be worried that in next matchup, Pak gets that from either US or PRC.

ASRAAM is a missile with a proper Imaging Infrared seeker. The Russians have themselves moved onto RVV-MD, the R-73E follow on with a dual color IR seeker (they dont have access to IIR seekers). Dual color seekers are harder to jam, though wideband flares would def. exist and are still regarded as effective, for their cost. The South Korean MANPADS we are getting via the SCHILKA replacement is likewise.

No BVR fighter relies only on BVR - chances are a WVR engagement may well occur and you need the best gear possible. The best possible WVR missile in service is supposedly the European IRIS-T, they refused to bid for the IAF requirements stating our cost bands were too prohibitive and our process did not take into account their superior quality etc. Its a blend of speed, maneuverability. ASRAAM is the next best option. Its a long range WVR AAM designed around speed and an IIR seeker. Its currently fielded by the Brits and some other Euro nations, EF operators. A fairly lethal system (should be) and a generation ahead of the R73E seeker wise. The Python-5 from Israel also has an IIR seeker but is supposedly more optimized for maneuver, and loses out on range. ASRAAM is "near BVR", whereas the Mica IR is actually as close to true BVR as possible and also WVR. Both Mica and ASRAAM are from the same MBDA, yet we are integrating ASRAAM on the Su-30 and not the Mica. Makes me think there is still an element of national control in these missiles beyond the MBDA tagline.

Similarly, R-77 is now long in the tooth, and has limited range wise vs AMRAAM C-5. The Russians have the RVV-SD follow on, which matches the AMRAAM C7 or at least the C5. AMRAAM D is supposedly longer in range yet. Unfortunately, we cannot yet on our own install Meteor on the Su-30s due to MBDA restrictions (but I wonder what stops us from attempting on our own, except our tendency to loudly announce everything on media?) Astra is not in favour because its specifications in term of range match the R-77. Though it is more sophisticated otherwise.
IAF after Balakote is hankering on range and more range. They think Meteor on the Rafale will be the next great answer, but what do of the Su-30? Hence a lot of debate about the next missile to go on the Su-30, could either be the RVV-SD (R-77 follow on) or the i-Derby ER....or who knows even the Meteor (but in a hush hush manner..).

ramana wrote:KaranM,
This kind of everything on all things type of thinking hurts.

Su-30MKI USP is BVR AAM. For BVR has R-77 and Astra.
For WVR has R-73. If the two are working hardly will ever end up needing WVR.
Its hardly likely you need ASRAAM tomorrow on Su-30MKI.

So why upset a good relationship with an unlikely thing?
First get the ASRAAM working on other aircraft and then talk about Su-30.
Instead the first talk is about SU-30.

Must be some anti-Russian coterie member.
And before people get hot about that there are such coteries.
Three types: US, Russian, French/Israel

The fourth one for British is muted as they don't make much stuff.
Now with ASRAAM the are back.
No one bats for India stuff!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Aug 2019 19:41

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... o-pok.html

The report 'Army launched 2 raids into PoK; dozens of terrorists, Pak soldiers killed', published on August 2, 2019, was based on inputs from an Army source.

But, later, we realised it was unconfirmed and so we pulled down the report.

We regret the hasty publication of the report.

TAGS

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Aug 2019 20:04

Looks like we want to keep hitting the Pakis till they will do something and get humiliated enough for them to downhill ski.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Aug 2019 21:14

There is some special meeting regarding security at Srinagar airport

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 02 Aug 2019 21:58

a noob question !! the PAF fired AMRAAM 's on IAF. DId IAF get any info about the missiles which helps them deal better with the threat in the next round of hostilities? its radar signature/kinematic performance etc .

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Aug 2019 03:02

I think they already have and hence those AMAbduls got dudded.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 03:56

manjgu wrote:a noob question !! the PAF fired AMRAAM 's on IAF. DId IAF get any info about the missiles which helps them deal better with the threat in the next round of hostilities? its radar signature/kinematic performance etc .


Depends on what the Su-30s were carrying (SPJ/RWR) and whether the RWR had recording function.
The Phalcons & Netra would have definitely picked up the fighter radar emission.
Kinetic parameters etc are well known by now.
Expect PAF to order Chinese for round 2.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 05:07

I reiterate, PAF badly overplayed its hand.

They used their silver bullets AMRAAMs and their CCS guys the tactics playbook drilled into them by their USAF instructors when they got the Vipers.
Basically, they executed the USAF playbook vis a vis the IAF trying for opportunistic Su-30 kills whilst thinking the Indians would overlook a few downed Su30s because "coward Modi" would not wage a full war over a couple of Su-30s.
High speed, high altitude launch against the 2x IAF Su-30s.

Problem was the IAF IACCS was up and running as it was meant to be, and 2nd the Su-30 guys were the product of a brutal IAF regimen that takes into account decades of BVR training experience drilled into SOPs, and also extensive ACMI work/debriefing.
The moment our guys had their RWR chirp, they went into countermeasures and aggressive maneuvering!
The PAF guys didn't even bother to close in to make sure (follow through into WVR) because of extreme risk avoidance viz their high value assets!
Instead, they lost situational awareness viz the maneuvering Su-30s and took a line of chaff on their radar screen to be equal to a lost Su-30.

Instead of merely breaking off, one of the Su-30s aggressively maneuvered into the near NEZ of the AMRAAM and then withdrew, trying for a missile lock of his own. There was not just one Abhinandan that day in terms of aggression.

And of course, when the strike was done (by the PAF) for showboating, they never anticipated an IAF pilot would run into a hot zone, braving multiple FCR locks for an opportune Viper kill. Yet that's what Abhinandan did. It can be debated endlessly - but the man was out for blood and he got his F-16.

What has the PAF got out of this mess? Literally nothing in tangible terms. Their idiotic propaganda campaign apart.

IAF has already placed orders for $1Bn to replenish spares, munitions & is now well aware of the one shortfall in a missile range gap, as marginal as it may be. Modi led GOI is now working on increasing the defence budget even.

Usual strategic brilliance from Pakistan.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 05:20

IAFs biggest issue is its complete inability to run a PR war or even wage hybrid war. Its a shame really. They just rely on their Chief speaking in an unscripted fashion and for interested veterans to step up and go above & beyond. Far more could have been done, should have been done. Add to that opportunists like the Print guys who tried to make hay out of the Feb 27th issue.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Aug 2019 10:38

Karan M wrote:I reiterate, PAF badly overplayed its hand.

They used their silver bullets AMRAAMs and their CCS guys the tactics playbook drilled into them by their USAF instructors when they got the Vipers.
Basically, they executed the USAF playbook vis a vis the IAF trying for opportunistic Su-30 kills whilst thinking the Indians would overlook a few downed Su30s because "coward Modi" would not wage a full war over a couple of Su-30s.
High speed, high altitude launch against the 2x IAF Su-30s.

Problem was the IAF IACCS was up and running as it was meant to be, and 2nd the Su-30 guys were the product of a brutal IAF regimen that takes into account decades of BVR training experience drilled into SOPs, and also extensive ACMI work/debriefing.
The moment our guys had their RWR chirp, they went into countermeasures and aggressive maneuvering!
The PAF guys didn't even bother to close in to make sure (follow through into WVR) because of extreme risk avoidance viz their high value assets!
Instead, they lost situational awareness viz the maneuvering Su-30s and took a line of chaff on their radar screen to be equal to a lost Su-30.

Instead of merely breaking off, one of the Su-30s aggressively maneuvered into the near NEZ of the AMRAAM and then withdrew, trying for a missile lock of his own. There was not just one Abhinandan that day in terms of aggression.

And of course, when the strike was done (by the PAF) for showboating, they never anticipated an IAF pilot would run into a hot zone, braving multiple FCR locks for an opportune Viper kill. Yet that's what Abhinandan did. It can be debated endlessly - but the man was out for blood and he got his F-16.

What has the PAF got out of this mess? Literally nothing in tangible terms. Their idiotic propaganda campaign apart.

IAF has already placed orders for $1Bn to replenish spares, munitions & is now well aware of the one shortfall in a missile range gap, as marginal as it may be. Modi led GOI is now working on increasing the defence budget even.

Usual strategic brilliance from Pakistan.


This explains things much better, Wing Commander and Su30 were going for the kill, after the launch of R-73, the Ground controllers must have pulled them back and asked to come back as the brass was not willing to escalate. That was when the Nauman guy got the Wing Co, I think mistake here was not waste a few R-77's like the Pakis did with the Amraam's. This could have probably dispersed the other F-16's and allowed Wing Commander to come back.
In all the AOA and Pakistan Zindabad's the Paki miltary and IM the dim thought the 2 aircraft which went down were an SU-30 and 1 bison. It took them 4-5 hours for everyone including Ghafoora to know that F-16 went down.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Deans » 03 Aug 2019 11:40

Karan M wrote:IAFs biggest issue is its complete inability to run a PR war or even wage hybrid war. Its a shame really. They just rely on their Chief speaking in an unscripted fashion and for interested veterans to step up and go above & beyond. Far more could have been done, should have been done. Add to that opportunists like the Print guys who tried to make hay out of the Feb 27th issue.


The war that really matters is the one where you shoot down enemy aircraft. Pak has won the PR war for decades without doing them any good.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 03 Aug 2019 11:49

+1

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby naird » 03 Aug 2019 12:10

Karan M wrote:The PAF guys didn't even bother to close in to make sure (follow through into WVR) because of extreme risk avoidance viz their high value assets!
Instead, they lost situational awareness viz the maneuvering Su-30s and took a line of chaff on their radar screen to be equal to a lost Su-30.

And of course, when the strike was done (by the PAF) for showboating, they never anticipated an IAF pilot would run into a hot zone, braving multiple FCR locks for an opportune Viper kill. Yet that's what Abhinandan did. It can be debated endlessly - but the man was out for blood and he got his F-16.



Thanks Karan for the lucid explanation. Some questions -
1. I understand the chaff may disorient the radar and may give feeling of downed a/c , but then radar should immediately reacquire the target & so should the controllers. F16 might have turned their nose away from engagement and thereby lost the awareness of Su 30 , but controllers would have known immediately and would have told F16's. Essentially PAF would have immediately known that Su 30 that they engaged and thought to be down - is still there ! Seems to be the case of not loosing situational awareness but running scared of their lives

2. Playing devils advocate - if chaffs were to disorient radars for long period of time then same can be said of in Wing Co's F16 kill also. AFAIK Wing Co did give confirmation on missile lock and after that there was no communication from him. The next action was presented to us from the Phalcon intercepts showing fighter signatures on radar. What if the chaffs or other counter measures disoriented our radars and gave a feeling that F16 was downed. What am i missing ?

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby VikramS » 03 Aug 2019 12:38

@naird:

WingCo Abgi has visual confirmation of the F-16 kill. It was a shot taken at around 10Km Range and a few seconds is all that was needed.

We have numerous videos and eye-witnesses of multiple plane down in PoK.

We have NO news of any Su-30 on the ground anywhere. It would be next to impossible to hide that wreck; the Su-30 is a big aircraft and the region of the air-battle is not a remote unconnected region.

Pakis confusing chaff as SU-30 down is there problem. They did not say that they did not see another blip in that area; they just say that the chaff on the radar was the SU-30 which they thought they bagged.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Aug 2019 13:09

Plus from the PAF and Paki Brass behaved it seems a SU-30 Kill is something which seems to have been promised before hand and part of thier plan. It took sometime for everyone in the Paki brass to realise, PAF could not deliver on what was promised.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 03 Aug 2019 13:32

the fact that DG ISPR caught '2 pilots' who were in hospital is further proof that it was no line of chaff and we all know what went down. People should also realise the difference between a free democratic country ( where nothing is hidden and 100's of vultures baying for govts blood) vs a military state ( where anything can be hidden to preserve H&D of the services)

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 03 Aug 2019 13:34

i dont know but i think i read somewhere that SU30 did not open its war frequencies. ?!

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Bhaskar_T » 03 Aug 2019 15:26

So, if a repeat of PAF aggression happens till we have Rafale or S-400, what could IAF/GOI do for a better outcome? In a repeat PAF aggression, Pakistani F-16's would again fire their AMRAAMs before Su30MKI could and while Su30MKI's execute evasive manoeuvers, it is possible that some F-16's could drop bombs (at least one of those bomb fell quite close to important Indian Army base). Yes, one could call PAF firing AMRAAMs as premature firing or waste of precious resources but it appears in a repeat aggression PAF is likely to call the shots first until we have Rafale or S-400.

Whether the latest mijjile orders by IAF plug this gap?

Regards,
Abdul.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 03 Aug 2019 15:47

Bhaskar_T wrote:So, if a repeat of PAF aggression happens till we have Rafale or S-400, what could IAF/GOI do for a better outcome? In a repeat PAF aggression, Pakistani F-16's would again fire their AMRAAMs before Su30MKI could and while Su30MKI's execute evasive manoeuvers, it is possible that some F-16's could drop bombs (at least one of those bomb fell quite close to important Indian Army base). Yes, one could call PAF firing AMRAAMs as premature firing or waste of precious resources but it appears in a repeat aggression PAF is likely to call the shots first until we have Rafale or S-400.

Whether the latest mijjile orders by IAF plug this gap?

Regards,
Abdul.

Yes .. for repeat aggression PAF will "call the shots" like they did AFTER Phulwama till the airspace was opened. Why is that a problem or is that a problem at all?

regards,
aam

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 03 Aug 2019 17:31

What Bhaskar_t asks is a good q. Though it seams after Feb 27/28, month long standoff, we were dominating, that means we had the tactics and the weapon to go with it that would overcome that scenario.

What that could be is pure speculation. We do have passive BVRs that are way higher range than C-5. I think ROE also changed, we can do the same, fire R-77 at extreme ranges, it will force F-16 to take evasive maneuvers (it wont hang there to prove that R-77 does not work at these ranges). Then the new acquisitions from mother Russia and derby-ir (Israel have been known in the past to deliver munition overnight and integrate that within a week - example Kargil). It has been many weeks since Feb 27.

Also, apart from F-16s there are other PAF bird in the air, go after them. Just like at LOC, if a BAT teams kills one of our guys, we do not only hunt and retaliate against that BAT team, but any TSPA team. Do the same in air. A JF-17 down or Mirage 3/5 down is equally something down at their end. And these planes are no match for 90% of ours.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 03 Aug 2019 18:21

DG ISPR @OfficialDGISPR 57m
Use of cluster bombs by Indian Army violating international conventions is condemnable. No weapon can suppress determination of Kashmiris to get their right of self determination. Kashmir runs in blood of every Pakistani. Indigenous freedom struggle of Kashmiris shall succeed,IA.


gafroora claiming cluster bombs? Hope is he not being a salim feku.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 03 Aug 2019 18:35

Habit of lying. May be calling air burst munition cluster bombs. Quite a large number of their army men must have died.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 03 Aug 2019 18:51

I would be wary of designating any country India's father or mother or brother when a friend designation would do. We are emotional people but lets not fall for the Baki-China blather syndrome.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby pankajs » 03 Aug 2019 18:54

sankum wrote:Habit of lying. May be calling air burst munition cluster bombs. Quite a large number of their army men must have died.

Seems like they suddenly felt the need to justify a large number of body bags returning home, a number big enough that it seemed beyond suppression. Trust bakis to try spin everything.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 19:40

naird wrote:Thanks Karan for the lucid explanation. Some questions -
1. I understand the chaff may disorient the radar and may give feeling of downed a/c , but then radar should immediately reacquire the target & so should the controllers. F16 might have turned their nose away from engagement and thereby lost the awareness of Su 30 , but controllers would have known immediately and would have told F16's. Essentially PAF would have immediately known that Su 30 that they engaged and thought to be down - is still there ! Seems to be the case of not loosing situational awareness but running scared of their lives


The problem is the BVR missiles were fired in either TWS or RWS mode and the PAF did not stick around for the entire game, they thought they guided missiles (salvos to increase Pk) mid-course guided them till "necessary" and did what NLI at Kargil did, showed a clean pair of heels and ran.

The radar mech. ranges a target, which can be chaff as well. The missiles are then fired in inertial mode, with the range data indicating whether they are in ops range or not and when to turn active. The target can still maneuver out of the radars scan area, especially when masked by chaff itself.
The radar comes back, its computer then reads the next signal as a continuation of the first etc.
So, a chaff "line" / "cloud" can end up appearing on the MFD screen and the pilot breaks off thinking he has done what he came for, whereas in reality the opponent has maneuvered out of the radar scan area.
Simply put, they called victory too early.

Interestingly enough, Tufail's entire blog article originally describing these details has been edited. :lol:

The ISPR clearly monitors BRF well, so I wouldnt be surprised if the details re-appear with some more masala to act all authoritative. I recall after several of us mocked the JF-17 vs Mirage 2000 details heavily, the ISPR has invested heavily in a counter narrative building the JF-17 up to be a super fighter, with even the PAF Chief involved. That is how much they track what we say and manage perception. :lol:

But we still have the PAFs claims left before the edits occurred which led to good chortles among several IAF veterans one of whom penned the below.
https://indiainterrupted.wordpress.com/ ... aftermath/
Air Cmde Tufail’s account of the engagement between the forces makes for entertaining reading. But if he is to be believed, then the PAF has based its entire claim to a Su-30 kill on the range at which the blip was picked up, and how it eventually disappeared.The words ‘the blip vanished from the screens after a couple of tight orbits by the aircraft’ are most interesting. Nine out of ten line fighter pilots would agree that this is how a chaff (mass of thin cut metal foil dispensed by aircraft to give a decoy radar target) cloud appears on radar, more or less stationary, and descending with time, eventually disappearing as it dissipates. This is an admission that Sqn Ldr Hassan Siddiqui, of the ‘elite’ Combat Commanders School actually fired off a $ 400,000 AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM at a few dollars worth of chaff that was, without a doubt, dispensed by IAF fighters as expected in BVR combat. This failure to discern a ‘chaff cloud’ from a bona fide aircraft by an ‘elite’ pilot should be cause for worry. Not to mention that the state of Pakistan cannot afford this kind of extravagance, with multiple such futile launches observed the day.


2. Playing devils advocate - if chaffs were to disorient radars for long period of time then same can be said of in Wing Co's F16 kill also. AFAIK Wing Co did give confirmation on missile lock and after that there was no communication from him. The next action was presented to us from the Phalcon intercepts showing fighter signatures on radar. What if the chaffs or other counter measures disoriented our radars and gave a feeling that F16 was downed. What am i missing ?


Abhinandan confirmed in his debriefing he had shot down the aircraft. There was no reason for the PAF F-16 pilot to deploy chaff & flares as Abhi did not radar lock on him per reports but just went for a visual attack (completely passive, undetectable) and locked his HMS after maneuvering behind him & then the R73E, and launched. The PAF F-16 wouldn't be launching flares for the intermittent pings by AF surveillance radars if there were no fighters around (chaff is a very carefully hoarded quantity to be used while combat maneuvering).

And in our case, we had multiple radars scanning the area and networked by IACCS.

Karan M
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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 19:55

The problem is deterrence has to be seen to be effective, not only locally but internationally. The ramifications of a short conflict run beyond our immediate shores and when the PAF/PA are adept at cooking up stories.. the IAF's nonchalant attitude towards info war can cost it. For instance, the Pakis may have as well pretended the bombs struck elsewhere, manufactured narratives of torn up dead bodies being those of civilians. The IAF's multiple day later "reveal" of "this bomb, that method" would have been lost in the outrage.

Deans wrote:
Karan M wrote:IAFs biggest issue is its complete inability to run a PR war or even wage hybrid war. Its a shame really. They just rely on their Chief speaking in an unscripted fashion and for interested veterans to step up and go above & beyond. Far more could have been done, should have been done. Add to that opportunists like the Print guys who tried to make hay out of the Feb 27th issue.


The war that really matters is the one where you shoot down enemy aircraft. Pak has won the PR war for decades without doing them any good.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Aug 2019 19:56

Tactics. Its not merely about firing missiles but having them count. They pulled out 1 set of their best USAF playbook on us that day. There will be others (more conventional ambush type scenarios), but they have tipped their hand.

Bhaskar_T wrote:So, if a repeat of PAF aggression happens till we have Rafale or S-400, what could IAF/GOI do for a better outcome? In a repeat PAF aggression, Pakistani F-16's would again fire their AMRAAMs before Su30MKI could and while Su30MKI's execute evasive manoeuvers, it is possible that some F-16's could drop bombs (at least one of those bomb fell quite close to important Indian Army base). Yes, one could call PAF firing AMRAAMs as premature firing or waste of precious resources but it appears in a repeat aggression PAF is likely to call the shots first until we have Rafale or S-400.

Whether the latest mijjile orders by IAF plug this gap?

Regards,
Abdul.

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Re: Operation Balakot: News & Discussion

Postby eklavya » 03 Aug 2019 20:20

^^^^
Bhaskar_T: ask yourself a question? If you have 75 F-16s (assume all fire AMRAAM), would you take on a force of 250 Su-30 MKI, 50 Mirage 2000, 60 MiG-29, etc. The border is 3,000 km + long and you have to fight 24/7. How long can you keep it up? Sooner or later you are keema nan, right?


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