Book: The India-Pak Air War of 1965 - Details & Reviews

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Book: The India-Pak Air War of 1965 - Details & Reviews

Postby Jagan » 08 Jul 2005 12:54

I am pleased to announce the availability of the book "The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965" written by the IAF site webmasters.

More than six years have gone into this book - and I can say for certainity that there is no publication ever devoted to the Indian Air Force's role in the 1965 War.

All this would not have happened without the support of the BR Website - its visitors, contributors and members.

Read more about the book and its contents at:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Books/

Image

The India - Pakistan Air War of 1965
by P V S Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra
Published by Manohar Books , New Delhi.
Price: Rs 895.00
Pages: 378 pages with 66 black and white illustrations.
ISBN: 81-7304-641-7
Weight : 650 gms.

Ordering info is on the first page of the above site.

Thanks everyone for your support.
Last edited by Jagan on 10 Aug 2005 22:42, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby MN Kumar » 08 Jul 2005 13:29

Great effort Jagan and Samirji. Congratulations. Jagan, need ur mob number.

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Postby shiv » 08 Jul 2005 13:59

Boss I am buying the book - but if does not come with autographs of both authors I will emigrate to Pakistan. Don't do that to me.

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Postby Rakesh » 08 Jul 2005 19:46

Excellent work you too! Congrats to a job well done.

I echo Shiv's statements.

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Postby Manne » 09 Jul 2005 00:16

Great effort. I must say this needed to be done. It also forms a very interesting milestone in the BR road ahead.

Jagan & Samir, congratulations.

And yes, I must third shiv's idea.

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Postby Aditya_M » 09 Jul 2005 11:19

This one is going to be next month's first book acquisition!

Well done gentlemen!

*ahem* any discount for us BRF members?

:wink:

Raju

Postby Raju » 09 Jul 2005 14:47

I will never buy anything from BR until Kapil Chandni sends my desktop calender for which I had sent him a money order. :(

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Postby Samir » 09 Jul 2005 18:03

Jagan has posted an announcement on the ACIG forum as well. BRF members might be interested in discussions that develop here:

http://acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68416#68416
Last edited by Samir on 10 Jul 2005 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Samir » 10 Jul 2005 12:29

Here is the link to the older link on ACIG for discussion on the 1965 air-war (this includes a classic debunking of Ravi Rikhye by Jagan):


http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

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Postby Jagan » 10 Jul 2005 23:10

Raju wrote:I will never buy anything from BR until Kapil Chandni sends my desktop calender for which I had sent him a money order. :(


Raju, your BR registered email has bounced. Can you give me an email to contact? or email me jaganpvs at gmail dot com

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Postby Samir » 11 Jul 2005 00:37

In my rush to provide informational links, I forgot to acknowledge those wishing us well above. Thanks very much. The work has been gratifying, and doing it with Jagan has been a treat. Heres to more books on the history of the IAF!

Cheers,
Samir

Raju

Postby Raju » 11 Jul 2005 08:49

Jagan wrote:email me jaganpvs at gmail dot com


Jagan, You got mail !

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Indo-Pak Air Battles 1965 Rikhye vs. Jagan

Postby Pennathur » 12 Jul 2005 07:18

Sorry Samir. The ACIG link you have posted doesn't take you to the thread concerned; only upto the master thread page.

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Postby Samir » 12 Jul 2005 09:12

Aha, sorry about that. The ACIG forum is restricted to registered members so you will have to register if you want to check out the forums. So, please register as the ACIG forums are very good value in any case, and worth checking out. It shouldn't take too long - I remember it being a simple page.

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Postby Y I Patel » 12 Jul 2005 19:56

Congratulations guys! Hope you take the logical next steps!!!

I think Pakistan will see a heavy immigration influx, and non-deportees at that, if you guys don't oblige with signed copies! Jagan, just put your Hancock on my copy if you are the one mailing it out. I will find a way to coerce your partner to do the same when I get the copy :)

Looking forward to your next book already!

BTW, JK Rowling must be totally pissed that you guys stole her thunder :D Preepmting her by two days! Shessh, you evil Yindus. Have you no shame?

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Postby dipesh.c » 12 Jul 2005 20:30

Awesome! Congrats..I am getting this next month...

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Postby Jagan » 13 Jul 2005 00:22

YIP,

Next book? my hair has gone white waiting for this one to come. Next thing I know I will be bald waiting for 1971 to arrive ;).

Will make sure I put in my thumbprint.. best of luck getting the prof to do the same.

cheers

Jagan

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Re: BR Book Release: The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965

Postby Sree » 13 Jul 2005 11:06

Jagan wrote:I am pleased to announce the availability of the book "The India-Pakistan Air War of 1965" ...


Jagan and Samir - I'm sure lots of others are (almost) as pleased as you guys must be!

Meant to post earlier, but congratulations anyway :D . All the very best,

Sree

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Postby CPrakash » 13 Jul 2005 14:36

Got this off the ImpureDeaf Board, related to the same thread samir has linked to

Saleem Hatoum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at this thread at acig....
http://acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=414&start=15

All is clear is the depth of hatred this Tom owner of acig has towards Pakistan and its people. If Harry and Jagan the pure hindus write it is the holy grail words coming out of an angles mouth but a Pakistani writes sometime that bhanchout immediately questions that Pakistan credibility and bullies him. Time is very near for this tom and harry all those who are wearing the same dhuty.


Beware Harry and Jagan, you packee hindus, (pure hindus) you are intruding into territories where angles fear to tread

I guess Salim barely cleared his madrassa exam in englees

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Postby Harry » 13 Jul 2005 23:27

Thanks CP. The good old entertainment thread at pukeduff was removed so no more threats, whines etc. :lol:

Fartoum's ****** was banned at ACIG long ago for the obvious.

EDITED BY ADMIN : NO PROFANITIES PLEASE (EVEN IN HINDI)

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Postby Cybaru » 14 Jul 2005 00:14

Congratulations to both of you ..

Waiting to get me a copy of it..

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Postby Jagan » 14 Jul 2005 00:25

Cybaru wrote:Congratulations to both of you ..

Waiting to get me a copy of it..


Thanks cyb. you still out of mumbai or are you back?

CPrakash, you are still trolling the pak forums a lot.. are you? :))

OK chaps, the first unsigned copies are being dispatched off tommorrow. do not forget to post a review whoever gets thier hands on it..

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Postby Cybaru » 14 Jul 2005 00:55

Still out of mumbai and I think I found a few more good ones, I need to scan.. I think I missed out on those..Atleast they are not there on BR.

So will send that over this weekend..

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Postby Jagan » 18 Jul 2005 19:14

Folks, just an update to say that the books are being dispatched. However there is a delay where requests for both the author signatures were made. That shipment of books have not yet come so it might take a couple of days before they start being shipped.


cheers

Jagan

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Postby Harry » 20 Jul 2005 01:11

I've got my copy but have'nt gone through it in detail. Its very similar to BR's 1965 war pages and thats a good thing. Very well written, exciting reads. Not too many all-new photos but the new ones are really cool - AT Cooke's gun camera shots and chapter are priceless. Superb tabulation of orbat, claims and counter claims. What dissappoints me is the exclusion of the "30 sec over Saragodha : Making of a Myth" section.

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Postby Mandeep » 20 Jul 2005 02:03

I warmly welcome Jagan's effort. I'm sure its a great book given Jagan's super knowledge and passion for the subject. Look forward to reading it.

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Postby Samir » 21 Jul 2005 15:49

Harry,

Thanks for the preliminary review, and we'll look forward to the more detailed one. The exclusion of the Sargodha chapter was done because we felt that the refutation of the claims was taking up too much space and it was implicit in our accounts of the various battles.

Cheers,
Samir

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Postby Surya » 22 Jul 2005 12:31

But Samir - implicit stuff is onlee understood by brainy types.

aam junta needs explicit stuff

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30 Seconds over Sargodha debate

Postby Jehammond » 22 Jul 2005 15:18

Folks,

I sure hope this book can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt if the claims by the Pak AF that an F-86 pilot show down four IAF Hunters in less than one minute. Talking to either side reminds you of kids arguing: "Did to! Did Not! Did To! Did Not! Did To! Did Not!"

Jack E. Hammond

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Postby Samir » 22 Jul 2005 18:37

Responding to propaganda claims is a full-time task and authors run the risk of getting distracted from the main story.

In this book, we chose not to give the absurd claims made by the PAF much attention. We wanted to tell the story of the IAF men in this war. Its their story, and we saw no point in obscuring that by concentrating who in the PAF said when or what. Sometimes it will emerge that some claim made by the PAF is absurd - as in their claiming that there were 12 Hunters over Halwara on the day of the famous air battle involving Rafiqui. Those that know something about aviation history will recognize the refutation of a claim (yes, only educated readers, but who else is going to be reading this book?).

As for settling "beyond a shadow of a doubt" claims made by the PAF about someone shooting down four Hunters in less than a minute, how many times does this have to be refuted? Did Stephen Jay Gould have to devote a chapter in each book of his debunking creationism before he starts discussing punctuated equilibrium?

Those claims have been refuted ad nauseam - lets give them a rest. Lets talk about those who matter. We run the risk of constantly, endlessly, talking about these 'claims'. BORING. The PAF does not set the agenda for story-telling.

On with the show.
Last edited by Samir on 22 Jul 2005 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby CPrakash » 22 Jul 2005 18:42

Why are we hung up on the paki claims? paklurks will have a ball over our obsession with alam, the paf claims etc.. And what four kills in 30 seconds? even the paki air force commodore has written that it was probably three in the whole battle, why do we have to read yet another rebuttal? :roll:

I think its a good move to leave out the chapter. pushpindar singh has done the rebuttal part pretty effectively in almost every book he has written like fiza ya, battle axes etc.. reading the 30 seconds bit in yet another book will again be tiring - the pakis would have been convinced that no indian book on 65 war can ever be written/published without bringing up the Sargodha ghosts!

and it would be a waste of time, if you guys had wasted 10-20 percent of the book just on alam and his claims, I think there are many other stories on the IAF that deserve better space than old myths..

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Postby Jagan » 22 Jul 2005 22:08

I cant put it much better than Samir and CPrakash. There is much more important stuff and memorable stories that need to go into the book the an the same old repetition / tradition of refuting the Sargodha Claims.

Harry,

Now get going on that detailed review!!

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Postby Samir » 23 Jul 2005 00:33

Harry, I second Jagan - we would love to get a detailed review out the door! Perhaps you can post it on ACIG.org and other forums that you frequent.

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Postby shiv » 24 Jul 2005 10:53

Review from forum lurker KrishnaJ

The India - Pakistan Air War of 1965
by P V S Jagan Mohan and Samir Chopra
Published by Manohar Books , New Delhi. 2005
Pages: 378 pages with 66 black and white illustrations.
ISBN: 81-7304-641-7


I recently got a copy of The India - Pakistan Air War of 1965
and haven't been able to put it down.  Here's a concise review which
some folks requested .


Contents :

1. Indian Air Force in its preliminary years.
2. The Adversaries Prior to War
3. From the Kutch to Chamb: From Skirmishes to War
4. The Challenge: Flare up on September 6th
5. The Sargodha Raids and the Air Battles of September 7th
6. Missed Opportunity: The War in the Eastern Sector
7. The Second Week of the Air War.
8. The End of the War: September 15th to September 23rd.
9. Cease-fire & Post-Mortem
10. Epilogue

Appendices - Claims , losses , awards,order of battle
Bibliography
Index




1. This book has been written from Indian point of view on the major
air war of 1965 between India and Pakistan ( a subject on which only
Fricker's book largely influenced by the PAF exists) ? in that context
this provides a more balanced view.

2. The authors have interviewed more than 100 Indian air force staff
incl the then chief - Air marshall Arjan Singh to get authentic and
rare eyewitness nuggets on the air wars and incorporates 5 years of
research.

3. The book covers the historical background of the air war and the
events leading to the air war, brief technical descriptions of the
combat aircraft , orders of battle and deployment. It covers a day by
day chronological account of the war interspersed with thrilling first
person accounts and rare gun camera shots of actual combat.

What I liked about the book ?

new and hence unknown combat stories and unsung heroes like Wilson's
Canberra raid on Badin (will not spoil the suspense) , day by day
accounts,
detailed account of the IAF raids on Sargodha , Peshawar and PAF on
Kalaikunda ,
classic story of Devayya's Mystere shootdown of the F-104 ,
Alfred Cook's breathtaking solo Hunter combat vs 4 Sabres at
Kalaikunda (shades of Mohd Alam's infamous 60 secs over Sargodha  )
and gun camera shots  - with a more plausible aftermath and many
more.Hope this work will form the basis of formal recognition of
Cooke's feat.

What was the true story of Sikand's Pasrur's Gnat landing ? this work
provides a rationale explanation.

The chapter on post mortem covering the air combat trends , aircraft
and lessons learnt are quite incisive provoking and no doubt were
imbibed by both air arms and the official version probably still
remain classified .There are also detailed list of air combat kills ,
gallantry awards and future careers of the main protagonists.

The authors have listed detailed notes , credits and cross references
of all their sources in every chapter and I admire their transparency
.

the authors have expended tremendous leg work and effort to collate
data over a five year period ? unlike many of the arm chair authors of
our times . IMHO is better than equivalent books on the Gulf and
Falkland air wars and comparable to Tom's Iran Iraq Air war book and
Shlomo Aloni's Israeli air aces.

Gripes : ? no maps of air bases/diagrams (guess the publisher's
graphic printing inability would have been a handicap) as this would
be very pertinent to international readers from a geographical sense ,
absence of color artworks ( I love 'em ) , could do with same depth
technical coverage of PAF aircraft like IAF .

However it more than makes up with good collection of rare combat
pictures and the printing quality and binding is very good .


Overall this is a book which is very readable and comprehensive and is
a must for both the historian and mil av enthusiast with its attention
to eyewitness detail and fast pace of action ? check it out , grab a
copy before it sells out !!

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Postby Harry » 26 Jul 2005 02:57

Pluses :

- Very well written.

- Very detailed encounters with capabilties of related a/c being taken into consideration.

- Debunking of many fallacious PAF claims including an accurate picture of actual IAF orbat

- Balanced perspective all the way.

- Credit where credit is due, always. The 8 pass-charlie section is very good.

- Extensive Tables including table of Canberra ops. This could have possibly been extended to other a/c and events. A timeline summary of events perhaps?

- Fricker centric. Debunks many claims but also fills gaps.

- Extensive list of interviewees and references. Gives the complete picture of events from both sides. The complete picture for the first time, has been put on paper.

- Day by Day narrative and post-war encounters.

- Eventual and current status of IAF and PAF participants in the war.


Minuses :

- Not relatively photo intensive, smallsize photos only

- No maps

- Detailed orbat of PAF and analysis missing.

- Too much emphasis on individual a/c of IAF orbat over overall capabilties which would need an individual analysis. Not too much detail of technical warmaking or (Fighter and ground based) Sensor capabilties of both sides.

- Expected more wreckage photos. Expected tons actually and perhaps a consolidated gallery.

- Not too much attention to the myth of MM Alam. A comparison with AT Cooke could have been done here.

-More details on Naval Aviation activities expected.

For maximum enjoyment, you should'nt have discovered the BR 1965 war section. If you have'nt spent too much time there, then this book is a 100% absolute must buy, even if you are'nt aware of the existance of India (and pakistan) or are'nt into this field. However, if you are somewhat familiar with the events of the airwar, it would translate into a benefit.

Wishlist

- Perhaps a perspective and numbers from ex-PAF, BAF pilots such as Mohd. Shaukat?
- Day-wise summaries at the end of each.

PS Thought that the Martin B-57B was better equipped that a Canberra, differences going beyond just the tandem seating arrangement?

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Postby Samir » 26 Jul 2005 19:10

Harry,

Thanks very much for that review - very good points for improvement. Perhaps in the second edition (after this one sells out?)

Cheers,
Samir

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Postby Jagan » 27 Jul 2005 17:32

Ghostrider on Email
i was reading ALfred Cooke's epic battle last night. very nicely written, ver y involving and exciting to read...made me feel as if was there. excellent work

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Postby Jagan » 27 Jul 2005 19:17

Harry, thanks for the review and tips, my take on some of thepoints raised by you.

Harry wrote:- Extensive Tables including table of Canberra ops. This could have possibly been extended to other a/c and events. A timeline summary of events perhaps?


I never really thought it that way, but yes that would be helpful for those in a hurry. The primary idea behind the canberra ops table was to address the fact that not much has been written about canberra missions outside the Peshawar, Badin missions. I guess we can do that for the next jumbo edition five years later :)

Harry wrote:- Not relatively photo intensive, smallsize photos only
- No maps
- Detailed orbat of PAF and analysis missing.


Agree, this needs to be addressed in the second edition. Some of the photographs could have been printed in larger format. I realised that there were as many as six blank pages towards the end of the book. We could have fitted atleast eight more images and four maps if we had done it properly. But we didn't know bout it till we got the book in our hands.

Harry wrote:- Too much emphasis on individual a/c of IAF orbat over overall capabilties which would need an individual analysis. Not too much detail of technical warmaking or (Fighter and ground based) Sensor capabilties of both sides.


The IAF Radars have always been the most sensitive issue to discuss and explore. Absolutely no photographs or details of the IAF Amritsar Radar unit exists in the Public domain untill recently. The role of Radar on the indian side in the conflict other than the Amritsar unit was neglible and I think that has been bought out in the account. Certainly the tecnical capabilities of the Pakistani Electronics should have been explored in detail further, including the Elint RB57s. But this was another task in itself and could have delayed the work.

Harry wrote:-More details on Naval Aviation activities expected.

Didnot have much to go on this other than the Official History and Hiranandanis book. I would have loved to interview the Alize Crew - if we ever find out who they were!


Harry wrote:- Perhaps a perspective and numbers from ex-PAF, BAF pilots such as Mohd. Shaukat?
- Day-wise summaries at the end of each.

Something to keep in mind eventually. I expect there will be some visibility to the book in Bangladesh too and hopefully we can get some PAF/BAF veterans to contribute....

Cheers

Jagan

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Postby Samir » 28 Jul 2005 21:32

Harry, thanks for the review. All good points as Jagan notes. The maps issue will definitely be addressed in the second edition. We've already managed to get more info just in the past few months - too late to make it to this edition.

if only we could get our hands on battle reports or station diaries, we'd have great summary information as well.

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Postby Vasu » 01 Aug 2005 21:40

I think this fits in this thread....

'1965 Indo-Pak war was too short'

Marshal of the Air Force Arjan Singh, who took over as Chief of Air Staff on August 1, 1964, regrets that the 1965 Indo-Pak war was "too short."

The 86-year-old Cranwell-trained Arjan Singh, who was the first officer of the Indian Air Force to don the tapes of Air Chief Marshal soon after the war, told TOI, "I was perhaps made the Air Chief Marshal for leading the air force through the war. However, the full capabilities of the IAF were not realised during the 1965 war. Unfortunately, the ceasefire was announced prematurely due to international pressure."

Arjan Singh, who retired in August 1969, said, "Pak Sabre jets had the capabilities to fire air-to-air missiles in 1965, but we were at a disadvantage as only a few newly-acquired MiG-21s had that potential. We lost a large number of slow-flying Vampires. Had the war lasted longer, we could have inflicted greater damage on the Pakistanis."

The non-use of offensive air power by India against the Chinese in 1962 also disappointed Arjan Singh, who was conferred the five-star rank in January 2002. He said the IAF fighter aircraft were decidedly superior to the Chinese and use of air power would have given Indian soldiers a psychological advantage.


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