IAF to Phase out MIG-25's on May 1st

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Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2006 01:56

Shankar wrote:The phasing out process itself will take some time and the aircrafts will not be sold in scrap yard for sure it will stay in reserve for few more years (may be configured for a decisive deep penetration quick acting strategic strike ??)


Shankar thats wishful thinking on your part. I am willing to bet that the aircraft will find themselves as display aircraft in less than six months.

The reason for phasing out would surely be related to the expiry of the airframe hours or engine hours. There is no way the aircraft will be kept "on reserve".

-Jagan

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RELIC PLANE

Postby member_8197 » 07 Apr 2006 03:11

I'm not looking for anything in particular. The idea is to get whatever the IAF will be willing to give to a 61 year old Jesuit Institution of which I am an Ex-Student as well as the Secretary of the PTA.
I would be greatful to know as to who should I approach regarding this request

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Re: RELIC PLANE

Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2006 04:25

Dominic Crasto wrote:I'm not looking for anything in particular. The idea is to get whatever the IAF will be willing to give to a 61 year old Jesuit Institution of which I am an Ex-Student as well as the Secretary of the PTA.
I would be greatful to know as to who should I approach regarding this request


Dominic,

Best way is to get in touch with the local "c-in-c". i.e if you are in bombay, your school should approach the AOC-in-C South western air command in pune. If your school is in the north, then the AOCinC Western Air cmmd in Delhi and so on. It would makeyour job easier if any of your schools ex-students are already serving in the IAF, or have retired. From what i have seen most of the 'gifts' to the schools were done by senior officers who were alumni from a particular institution. (Eg Modern School in Delhi has an IAF Hunter, presented by an ex-student who later became the Chief of IAF - SK Mehra).

To give you an idea, check this list. http://www.warbirds.in/list/ There are loads of schools and colleges there with gifts from the IAF.

All the best in your quest.

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Postby Rishirishi » 07 Apr 2006 04:26

I think the Mig-25 role is very well covred by Sat's for real time info.

Those birds are expensive to maintain, Phasing them out, will make way for other stuff.

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Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2006 04:48

http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/07/stories ... 221500.htm

IAF to retire the last of its secret planes

Sandeep Dikshit

It is looking for suitable resting places for the four MiG-25s

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to retire the last of its secret planes next month. The IAF is now looking for a suitable resting place for the four MiG-25 planes, one of the two planes in the world that could fly at stratospheric levels to take photographs of quality.

So possessive was the IAF about these planes that the first indication of what they looked like in Indian colours came from a postal stamp, over a decade after their acquisition.

Earmarked for museum


While one of the MiG-25 "High Altitude Strategic Reconnaissance" planes has been earmarked for the IAF museum at Palam, another will be permanently parked at the Air Force Academy, Dindigul. As the MiG-25, at 30 tonnes, is a heavy aircraft, the remaining two planes will have to be accommodated near the airport since it is nearly impossible to dismantle them for transportation and assemble them again

The planes are known to have flown over China, Pakistan and other countries to take stock of their military preparations but returned undetected after conducting sorties at an altitude of 25 km. However, one flight over Pakistan in 1997 led to tensions with Islamabad claiming that the MiG-25 deliberately gave out its signature to underline the absence of a plane of similar capability with it.

Called "Foxbat" in NATO parlance, they flew extensively over Western Bloc countries during the Cold War.

Making an appearance in India in 1981, the lot of eight planes, equipped with powerful cameras and sensors, were with the 106 (Trisonics) squadron in Bareilly.

Reconnaissance platforms


A former Trisonics squadron commander A. Mukherjee said: "We now have better reconnaissance platforms as well as access to satellite imagery to enhance both battlefield transparency and situational awareness." Apart from satellite imagery, the IAF now has unmanned aerial vehicles and aerostat radars.

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Postby Jagan » 07 Apr 2006 05:11

.. and how it all started...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A967948260

India Takes Delivery Of 'a Few' MIG-25's
REUTERS
Published: August 26, 1981

India said today that it had acquired the Soviet Union's MIG-25, an advanced interceptor-reconnaissance aircraft called the Foxbat by NATO.

A Defense Ministry spokesman confirmed a television report that the Indian Air Force chief, Air Marshal Idris Hassan Latif, today flew a MIG-25, which is capable of flying at 2,400 miles an hour.

''We have a few of them, not many,'' the spokesman said, declining to give any details. India, which has said it would take steps to counter the American decision to sell F-16 fighters to Pakistan, was known to be negotiating the purchase of MIG-25's but the report today was the first indication that any had been delivered.

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Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2006 06:29

The planes are known to have flown over China, Pakistan and other countries to take stock of their military preparations but returned undetected after conducting sorties at an altitude of 25 km. However, one flight over Pakistan in 1997 led to tensions with Islamabad claiming that the MiG-25 deliberately gave out its signature to underline the absence of a plane of similar capability with it.


I am not too sure what signature they are talking about , But the host country didnt mind as long as it was very high didnt break the sonic boom. One can easily detect the Mig-25 with its huge signature , But the enemy needs a capable aircraft or SAM to shooot it down.

The 1997 incident was due to the fact that it went supersonic while in Pak airspace.

If the IAF desperately needs Mig-25 due to airframe , engine expiry then it can ask Russia for a replacement , I dont see how Mig-31 can replace it as it cant fly as High or as fast as a Mig-25.

Its a right decision to phase it out .

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Re: A QUERY

Postby Ved » 07 Apr 2006 07:52

Jagan wrote:
Dominic Crasto wrote:I would like to know if the Indian Air Force gives away its old aircraft to educational institutions who are ready to not only provide a resting space but will also look after them honourably.


No harm in asking - write to the ACAS Ops (C&D), Air HQ (Vayu Bhawan), Rafi Marg, New Delhi - 110011, who deals with historical and PR issues as well, and be sure to mention that you would display the aircraft in a suitably honorable way. Incidentally, he's an ex-Trisonics CO.

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Postby kantak » 07 Apr 2006 08:21

Rishirishi wrote:I think the Mig-25 role is very well covred by Sat's for real time info.

Those birds are expensive to maintain, Phasing them out, will make way for other stuff.


The time at which any satellite flies over a given footprint on earth can be easilly known and counter measures can be taken .Changing the sats orbit is also difficult as limited fuel is carried on board.Even we fooled the US sats for the BUDDHA nuke tests.A plane like the mig-25 or a sr-71 can be sent over any point over paki area at anytime if the need arises and that too within a hour or less.Sure this recon role may be taken over by other aircraft but none of them can do mach 2.8+ with a flight altitude of 40000+.

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Postby Shankar » 07 Apr 2006 11:50

Nitin -laughing is i know good for health
please refer airforce-technology.com for the mig 25 writeup

russian airforce mig 25 p aircrafts are based at moscow and primary purpose is missiles interceptor and mig 25 s are very much capable of counter air operations in dense air defense evironment like one likely to be encountered during deep penetration strike other than recon missions of type we use.

Mig 25 foxbats are an out an out interceptors just like mig 29s and concieved and designed and manufactured just for the purpose of intercepting super sonic bombers usaf was developing at that time .The bomber project (i think b-70 valkyrie or some thing) was abandioned and so the mig 25 got the r ot recon variant to find a suitable use for this high speed capable air frame .

That is why i said if indian air force feels very few hours are remaning in thier 4/6 foxbats possible it can be put in store for some critical missions in future which other aircrafts in iaf inventory do not have the performance envelope to perform.

Laughter they say is the best medicine

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Postby JCage » 07 Apr 2006 12:02

Shankar,

It is amusing. Instead of referring to airforcetechnology - India got the Recce version, not the air defense or some deep strike version! They were never intended for anything apart from deep recce.

India is phasing out its recce Foxbats because it cant even maintain them for few and far between recce flights...and you are postulating that the IAF will upgrade them, change their mission profile & keep them around for something the MKIs can do at far less expense...

Instead, the IAF would have upgraded them and kept them as recce birds itself..

It wont happen..

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Postby Raj Malhotra » 07 Apr 2006 12:49

I wonder whether we can get Gobal Hawk as replacement?

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Postby Vick » 07 Apr 2006 16:24

People who are advocating refurbing and/or buying new Foxbats do realize that ~90% of what they did can be done by the vast majority of the IAF's modern birds right?

Two words: Recon pods.

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Postby Philip » 07 Apr 2006 16:29

What happened to the Russian offer of taking back the MIG-25s and givign India in return modified MIG-31s with ultra long range missiles (AWACS busters)?

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Postby Neeraj B » 07 Apr 2006 16:46

Vick wrote:People who are advocating refurbing and/or buying new Foxbats do realize that ~90% of what they did can be done by the vast majority of the IAF's modern birds right?

Two words: Recon pods.

Vik: Would you like to expand on your statement a little bit?

Which Aircraft in IAF's inventory can do 90% of what Mig 25 does/did.
Canberra?
Mig 21?
Mig 23?
Mig 27?
Mig 29?
Su 30?
Jag?
M 2000?

Though, Canberra, Jags and Mig 23s are used for recon, but none of these aircrafts can dare to venture deeeeeeeeeeeeeep into an enemy teritory.

It is real difficult to maintain the old "tin bricks" Mig 25. The friend I reffer to time and again once had a leak while flying back from a very sensitive mission and was carrying a very sensitive payload. Mig 25 uses two layers of glass in the front of the canopy. And the oil got in between the two layers. He was literally blinded could not see anything in the front. He had to do a highly angled approach at a higher speed. He was looking outside from the side (As the front was all black). For the last strech he was guided home by ATC with no outside view. This happened about 15 years ago, when the Mig 25s were reletively newer. Now a days, it was becoming more and more difficult to keep it flying.

The reason IAF is retiring these birds is because of maintainability. Not because they don't "require" it any more. Yes, we still can get sat images. But it is real easy to "hide" from the sats. I saw large column movements (In Punjab and J&K) during nights and when I approached an officer to ask why are they moving during nights, he said, to avoid Satellite detection.

If Russia buys back Mig 25s and gives us the Mig 31s at a very good (read cheap) price. We should take it.

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Postby krishnan » 07 Apr 2006 16:52

nbagga wrote:If Russia buys back Mig 25s and gives us the Mig 31s at a very good (read cheap) price. We should take it.


Dont be surprised if few yrs down the lane u find out that IAF has 31's
:wink:

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Postby Vick » 07 Apr 2006 17:02

When one wants to peep "deep" into enemy territory, it's usually for strategic reasons. When one wants have a shallow or moderately deep peep into the enemy, it's usually for tactical reasons.

All of the tactical recon can be done by UAVs and Jags/M2K/LCA/MKI/MRCA and UAVs with recon pods. Remember, there's also stuff like SAR/ISAR with GMTI capability that can do recon day/night and all weather.

Also, there's a trend for multirole capability. To have a single platform that's very expensive to maintain to do just one task (IMINT), and that too at a very limited capability, is not very economical. When a single UAV can do IMINT, SIGINT, and COMINT simultaneously on one sortie and deliver that data near realtime to the front/hq.

Going back to the begining, if one wants a strategic peep show, and the long lead times that are required therein, it's better to use a combination of versatile assets than an expensive and very limited one trick pony.

nbagga wrote:The reason IAF is retiring these birds is because of maintainability. Not because they don't "require" it any more.

That is PURE speculation. The IAF is more likely to be retiring them because, as Jagan said, the planes have run out of structural life.
Last edited by Vick on 07 Apr 2006 17:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby JCage » 07 Apr 2006 17:05

NBagga, the MiG 31 is an air defense bird, what use would it be for high speed, deep recce?

The only thing that can replace the Foxbats are other Foxbats. Or you go for a reduced RCS long range UAV...thats about it...but it wont get you any Mach 2 dash...

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Postby kantak » 07 Apr 2006 17:39

The mig 25a sucks as an interceptor.What makes it great is that it can fly from point a to point b in a perfect straight line at high speed and altitude something which makes it tailor made for the recon role.same with the SR-71.This makes the mig-25 unique and u cannot compare it with the mig-31.

But how long can u flog an ageing aircraft thats the reson for its demise .I just hope the IAF can acquire something as the globalhawk for the recon role.The searcher is good for the battlefield role not for strategic purpose

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Postby Shankar » 07 Apr 2006 17:46

considering only air to air kill during gulf war that of a hornet was by iraqs mig 25a -to say mig 25 sucks as an interceptor maybe too simplistic . In another incident in the same war 4 f-15s fired a total of 8 missiles both sparrows and sidewinders to bring down a pair of mig 25s -they did not suceed.

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Postby Neeraj B » 07 Apr 2006 18:42

Vick wrote:
nbagga wrote:The reason IAF is retiring these birds is because of maintainability. Not because they don't "require" it any more.

That is PURE speculation. The IAF is more likely to be retiring them because, as Jagan said, the planes have run out of structural life.


That is exactly what I ment. The point I was driving home was, The Mig-25s are not being phased out because there is no need for it.. But because they have approached the end of their life.

[quote="JCage"]
NBagga, the MiG 31 is an air defense bird, what use would it be for high speed, deep recce?
The only thing that can replace the Foxbats are other Foxbats. Or you go for a reduced RCS long range UAV...thats about it...but it wont get you any Mach 2 dash...
[quote]
Do you recal what was the purpose of Mig 25? Why were they produced? Mig 25s were pure interceptors. But were modified for the role of Recon platform, which it performed pretty well.

Requirements for Manned Recon:
High Altitude,
Ability to Dash (High speeds),
Recon Equipments,
Stealth, (Both Mig 25 and 31 loase out here)
Loiter time (Un manned)

Both Mig 25 and 31 fit the bill. Mig 31 is better because it can hold its ground. Can sustain higher G loads.
JCage, why do you think Foxhound can not fill the shoes of Foxbat. (May be you are right, but I don't know why!!)

Reduced RCS long range UAVs are the best option. However, only the US has it and no one else. Not even Isreal. US aint gonna give us one. For Sure.

I have been saying, get two Squads of Mig 31s. One for Recce and the other for Air Defense/Supiriority. Last week we had a U2 intrusion in Western India. The U-2 loitered in the Indian Territory for about half an hour and we didn't do anything. Mig-31s (if we had) could have intersepted it. That U-2 may have been flying out of our SAM range. U-2 Operational ceiling is 85K feet to 95K Feet (FAS.org). But I have read elsewhere it easily flies at 100K ft.

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Postby JCage » 07 Apr 2006 18:53

NB,

The MiG 31s that exist are expensive, gold plated aircraft- you will havet strip out their onboard stuff & replace it to get a MiG 25..more expense...all for 4-6 a/c..MiG will do it if you can afford to pay them...and maintenance issues will remain cost wise, assuming MiG does provide spares. But heres the crux of the issue, a S300 wont care if you are flying at Mach 2.8 at circa 90 k feet...imho, thats one of the main reasons why manned high speed strategic recon during peacetime is going to slowly wind up..when you can get shot at, by an active non degraded defence system.

Shankar:

considering only air to air kill during gulf war that of a hornet was by iraqs mig 25a -to say mig 25 sucks as an interceptor maybe too simplistic . In another incident in the same war 4 f-15s fired a total of 8 missiles both sparrows and sidewinders to bring down a pair of mig 25s -they did not suceed.

ODS was definitely the swansong of the Foxbat. The pilot shotdown by the lone 25 was Scott Speicher. Pretty tragic fate for his folks, iirc he's still MIA.

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Postby JCage » 07 Apr 2006 18:56

UAVs like the Heron (with RAM) can be low rcs, long range UAVs...but they are not high speed...

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Postby ldev » 07 Apr 2006 21:27

JCage wrote: But heres the crux of the issue, a S300 wont care if you are flying at Mach 2.8 at circa 90 k feet...imho, thats one of the main reasons why manned high speed strategic recon during peacetime is going to slowly wind up..when you can get shot at, by an active non degraded defence system.


Absolutely correct. Not to mention that the Chinese e.g. now have the SU-30MKK with AA-10 and AA-12 which combination if positioned correctly can take down the MIG-25. 15 years ago the MIG-25 could operate with relative impunity in the absence of such potent air and ground based air defences. Now the risk of being taken down is far too great and if you couple that with airframe hours and the maintainance costs, the decision is a foregone conclusion. Even the US stopped overflights of the USSR using its SR-71s after airdefences reached a certain threshold. But I understand that during its heydays as a reconnaisance platform for the IAF this aircraft has flown over some very interesting countries besides the obvious candidates.

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Postby Harry » 08 Apr 2006 09:50

Op Safedsagar could only commence after a MiG-25R brought back the critical info, flying at medium altitude, lower than the norma altitude of operation.

For all this talk about UAVs, what happened the last time a UAV tried a "deep" mission inside Pukistan? :roll:
A MiG-25R can reach the target area in no time and get out with impunity.

For night time photography, the Russians equipped their aircraft with flare bombs. The aircraft also had a Sablya (or Shompol) SLAR.

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Postby Shankar » 08 Apr 2006 10:00

No matter what happens or how many sata we have in space the void created by retirement of foxbats need to be refilled quickly maybe the mig 31s are the only optin.US still uses u-2 despite having the largets constellation of spy sats all over and all types .Sats are oh so predictable while the manned recon high speed flights always retains the surprises edge and that is what makes them invaluable .

As regrds using mig 25 for deep penetration strike -Niting i was not really serious just as you said streching imagination a bit to consider a realistic possibility if we had 3/4 squadrons of the foxbats with bars and r-77e . Nothing wrong in dreaming right.

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Postby D_Prem » 08 Apr 2006 10:30

Shankar wrote:No matter what happens or how many sata we have in space the void created by retirement of foxbats need to be refilled quickly maybe the mig 31s are the only optin.


I second that. We really do need a spy craft which can fill in the gap...and MiG-31 is a good contender for it.

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Postby SaiK » 11 Apr 2006 10:09

India Writing off Russian MiGs as Scrap

Yesterday BBC Television reported that India’s air force has decided to abandon further usage of the MiG-25R and the MiG-25RU training variant created on its basis supersonic reconnaissance airplanes. The last four aircraft of eight of this brand, which were bought from the USSR in 1979 – 1981, will be removed from the inventory on 1 May of this year. “This will be a sad event for us,â€

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Postby Priyank » 11 Apr 2006 10:15

I wish some day the definitive history of the Trisonics is published. Either that or the GoI removes the gag orders and lets some of the Ex-Trisonics pilots talk about their time and missions in the squadron. They must have quite a few interesting (to put it mildly) tales to tell.

I know, I know, fat chance of that ever happening. But a Jingo (c) can always hope.

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Postby Ajay K » 13 Apr 2006 00:17

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Last week we had a U2 intrusion in Western India. The U-2 loitered in the Indian Territory for about half an hour and we didn't do anything.


Folks, if the above stated is true these U2s must be having a free ride over Indian skies. How do we protect against these missions?

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Postby CPrakash » 13 Apr 2006 00:36

Ajay K wrote:
nbagga
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Last week we had a U2 intrusion in Western India. The U-2 loitered in the Indian Territory for about half an hour and we didn't do anything.


Folks, if the above stated is true these U2s must be having a free ride over Indian skies. How do we protect against these missions?


YEs yes, if nbagga says so, it must be true.... :D How do we shoot em down?

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Postby Ajay K » 13 Apr 2006 00:43

Simple shoot nbagga down :x

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Postby John Snow » 13 Apr 2006 02:25

build a uav with Mig_25 kind of recon cameras or even Canberra type
with rotax enine. Or even better ask (Rahul)bajaj scooter walla to make a two stoke engine by gluing two auto rickashaw engines with about 40 Bhp (at propeller) ...

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Postby Lalmohan » 13 Apr 2006 13:33

Ajay K wrote:Simple shoot nbagga down :x



this is simple mishtake onlee, i can categorically state that it was in fact Irish rock band U2 being shown live on MTV on satellite channels all over India. The show lasted for 30 mins, therefore - there was U2 in Indian skies for well over half an hour

shoot em down anyway

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Postby JCage » 13 Apr 2006 13:43

John Snow wrote:build a uav with Mig_25 kind of recon cameras or even Canberra type
with rotax enine. Or even better ask (Rahul)bajaj scooter walla to make a two stoke engine by gluing two auto rickashaw engines with about 40 Bhp (at propeller) ...


Senor Snow welcome back

Indian UAV engines, 11 MB Powerpoint

http://rapidshare.de/files/17880184/UAV ... s.ppt.html

From some VRDE presentation at a seminar

John Snow
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Postby John Snow » 13 Apr 2006 19:21

JC I couldnot access the page you posted about UAV engines any suggestions...

JCage
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Postby JCage » 13 Apr 2006 20:30

S, Did you try this:

Please click on free tab in lower RHS of page
Then it takes u to a page, where a timer starts and after some seconds, you will be asked to type a number/aphabets which appears (like email verification to prevent fake login)
Then finally download link appears and u can click on it and save the file (PPT)

With 11 MB this was the only place I thot of uploading it to. Please try above..I remember you were always intersted in UAV powerplant news..something interesting.

Ved
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Re: RELIC PLANE

Postby Ved » 13 Apr 2006 20:40

Jagan wrote:
Dominic Crasto wrote:I'm not looking for anything in particular. The idea is to get whatever the IAF will be willing to give to a 61 year old Jesuit Institution of which I am an Ex-Student as well as the Secretary of the PTA.
I would be greatful to know as to who should I approach regarding this request


Dominic,

Best way is to get in touch with the local "c-in-c". i.e if you are in bombay, your school should approach the AOC-in-C South western air command in pune. .......All the best in your quest.


There's one MiG-25 going, to whoever can pay for its transport from Bareilly (can't be ferried). Any takers? Serious enquiries to ACAS Ops (C&D), Air HQ(VB).[/quote]

rsingh
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Postby rsingh » 13 Apr 2006 21:48

I wonder if BR could.......

Neeraj B
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Postby Neeraj B » 13 Apr 2006 22:06

Ajay K wrote:Simple shoot nbagga down :x


Cooll Ajay.. It absolutely suites you.. Keep it up..


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