Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Sanjay
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Postby Sanjay » 25 Sep 2007 03:14

Ramana, I'm very familiar with that discussion. Regretably some of it - though by no means all of it - does not gel with some more recent research.

Nonetheless, thanks

ParGha
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Postby ParGha » 25 Sep 2007 03:41

Babui wrote:
On one end of the scale you had a handful of Mohyals fighting for Imam Hussein all the way back in Battle of Karbala;
ParGha - can you elaborate? Who are Mohyals? (Hindus?!)


Mohyals are a Brahmin community originally stretching all the way from Gandhara to North of Ravi River (as opposed to other Punjabi Brahmins). As you can imagine most of them immigrated to Punjab, Rajasthan and Delhi after Partition, so now they are just Punjabi Brahmins for all intentions and purposes. The geographical origins pretty much explains why they would be involved in Islamic affairs at so early a stage in history, as well as how.

As an afterthought, there might have been other North-West Hindu communities involved in such adventuring as well, but I just don't know about that. Please, I repeat please, don't turn this into another round of wild communal speculations. It is just how those soldiers were identified (or as specifically Bharadwaj soldiers), nothing communal about it.

==========

"Bakshi" just means military pay-master. Period. It can be held by members of any community.

PS: I just checked Wikipedia, and it does confirm Acharya's assertion that Mohyals use it very often as familial surname and with very different meaning (supposedly "benevolent"). So I am not trying to deny its local significance, just adding to a broader understanding of the term. :wink:

Airavat
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Postby Airavat » 25 Sep 2007 05:27

Royal Patrons of Nalanda University

By this
time the Gupta Emperors had already lost their
paramount sovereignty and had become feudatories of his foreign enemies the Hunas.(1) The latter's king Mihirakula, whose capital
seems to have been somewhere in Malwa, issued a
decree during Narasimha Gupta's reign, by which he
declared his purpose "to destroy all the (Buddhist)
priests through the five Indies, to overthrow the law
of Buddha, and leave nothing remaining."(2)

The greatest number of Bhiksus undoubtedly
resided in the kingdom of Narasimha Gupta. So this
king, a fervent disciple of Vasubandhu, and who is
said by the Chinese pilgrim to have "profoundly
honoured the law of Buddha," as soon as news of the
persecution begun by Mihirakula reached his ears "he
strictly guarded the frontiers of his kingdom and
refused to pay tribute.
''(3)

This was a declaration
of war on the part of the Gupta sovereign. The Huna
king accepted the challenge, entered the kingdom of
Magadha and pursued Narasimha Gupta till the bay of
Bengal.(4) In the course of this campaign Mihirakula
at the head of his army had to pass very near the
university of Nalanda, for he first undoubtedly
marched on Pataliputra, and only when he realised
that the Gupta sovereign had fled towards the sea
then he continued his march till the bay of Bengal.

This inroad of the Huna army was bound to be fatal to
the kingdom of Magadha and specially to the Buddhist
religion then protected and patronized by the Gupta
monarchs. Mihirakula, beyond doubt, in his hatred of
Buddhism destroyed all its buildings that he found in
his way, and killed all its priests-- cruelties which
he was shortly afterwards to repeat in his exile of
Kashmir.(5) Nalanda University was not far from the
capital, Pataliputra, and its fame had also reached
Mihirakula's ears. The buildings of Nalanda were then
probably destroyed for the frst time, and its priests
and students dispersed and perhaps kiiled
.(1)

But Mihirakula was finally defeated by the Gupta
army and exiled to Kashmir by the victor
.(2) After
this Narasimha Gupta, the great patron of Buddhism,
could not Permit that such an important institution
of learning should perish. Hiuen Tsiang tells us that
he built another sangharama on the northeast side
of the one built by his father.(3)

This sangharama
was still called "the college of Baladitya-raja" in
the time of Hiuen Tsiang.(4) Moreover he constructed
a great vihara 300 feet high. "With respect to its
magnificence," says Hiuen Tsiang, "its dimensions,
and the statue of Buddha placed in it, it resembles
the great vihara built under the Bodhi tree."(5) But
besides the building of the sangharama and the vihara
Nalanda undoubtedly owed to Narasimha Gupta the
restoration of the whole university after the
destruction of the Huna King.

Shwetank
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Postby Shwetank » 26 Sep 2007 21:11

So I went looking for pictures of Indian weapons since I had requested them from others myself (which are so hard to find in popular culture or anywhere compared to other culture's weapons) and have decided to post some pictures I found at an antique arms site. Pictures are of genuine articles but are being sold all over to people, just thought would be nice if some folks saved them or remember what they look like (Rahul M could use them if he ever gets around to later time periods). Admins shift to Pictures thread if inappropiate here.

Here's some wiki info on weapons for those wanting to know more:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Indian_mêlée_weapons]Indian Melee Weapons[/url]

Other weapons of India at bottom of page

-Katars varied designs including forked blade, three-bladed, very long blades, serated blades, ornamental hilts- Interesting weapons, especially because it's uniquely Indian.

-Two Indian Assasin's daggers

-Various Indian Daggers

- Another dagger (apparently unusual, guessing cause of the pommel)

-Indian and Persian Maces

-Indian & Persian Maces 2, including interesting bull-head mace, disc head, and maces with crossgaurds and pommels in Indian style

-Ankyles -elephant goads

- Madus(look to Wiki link for description)

- Cavalry swords

-Patas, including ornamental design (demon?)

-Tridents

-Damascus or wootz steel close-ups[/url]

More to come..
Last edited by Shwetank on 26 Sep 2007 21:43, edited 2 times in total.

Shwetank
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Postby Shwetank » 26 Sep 2007 21:58

Next posting Individual weapons, photographs not just pics. Anything related to Indian or possible Indian also. Read the descriptions at bottom of pages.

First up a very good pair of patas, Ignore the models in first pic. of each page :roll:
First, Second

Southern Indian khanjar

Indo-Persian all-steel qama

Nepalese kothimora khukri I'm not going to post a lot khukri's because there's already a tonne of pictures of them out there, just something nice or unique)

Shwetank
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Postby Shwetank » 26 Sep 2007 22:23

A pata from a personal collection, almost 50 inches LONG! :

Huge pata

Steel spear from personal collection (sainthis and djarids also posted, don't know the terminology)

A lot more to come but will probably post tommorow, have to sift throw forums and sites not showing up on general searches. Any feedback is welcome, I for one certainly find all this interesting, any others? :)

Rahul M
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Postby Rahul M » 27 Sep 2007 02:05

shwetank, superb posts !!

:hat's off:

could I have your mail id ?? mine is

anirbanDOTflamesATgmailDOTcom

Shwetank
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Postby Shwetank » 27 Sep 2007 21:53

Rahul M, sent.

Nirantar
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Postby Nirantar » 27 Sep 2007 22:20

From a book called "Invasions of India":-

On February 25th the Turks reached Uinballa. On
the 26th Prince Humayon attacked Hamid Khan, the
Shekdar of Hissar-Firozeh (Shekdar is a military governor
of a district), and took him by surprise.
' Our
troops,' writes Baber,
'
brought down one hundred or
two hundred of the enemy, cut off the heads of the one
half, and brought the other half alive into camp, along
with seven or eight elephants. Bey Merak Moghul
brought the news of this victory of Humayon to the
camp at this station on Friday the 18th of the month.
I directed a complete dress of honour, a horse from my
own stable, with a reward in money, to be given to him.'*
On Monday (March 5th), Humayon reached his
father's camp, which was still at the same place,
' with
a hundred prisoners and seven or eight elephants, and
waited on me. I ordered Ustad Ali Kuli and the matchlock
men to shoot all the prisoners as an example. This
was Humayon's first expedition, and the first service he
had seen. It was a very good omen. Some light troops
having followed the fugitives, took Hissar-Firozeh, which,
with its dependencies and subordinate districts, yielded a
kror' (about 25,000 sterling).
On the 12th of March the Turks reached Shahabad.
' We now began also to receive repeated information from
Ibrahim's camp that he was advancing slowly, a kos or
two at a time, and halting two or three days at each encampment.
I, on my side, likewise moved on to meet


him ; and, after the second march from Shahabad, encamped
on the banks of the Jumna, opposite to Siraweh.'
The invaders crossed the Jumna by a ford. Baber used
to sail on the river in a boat.
Now Baber was reaching the crisis of his fate ; either
he would find a grave in a foreign land, or come out of
the impending conflict victorious. On the 12th of April
the Turks arrived within two marches of the city of
Paniput, which lies about fifty miles from Delhi. * At
this station/ writes Baber, 'I directed that, according
to the fashion of Rum '
(that is, of the Ottoman Turks),
1 the gun-carriages should be connected together with
twisted bulls' hides, as with chains. Between every two
gun-carriages were six or seven turas of breastworks.'
(These turas were branches of trees, interwoven like basket-
work, it is supposed.) 'The matchlock-men stood
behind these guns and turas, and discharged their matchlocks.
I halted five or six days in this camp, for the
purpose of getting the apparatus arranged. After every
part of it was in order and ready, I called together all
the Amirs and men of any experience and knowledge,
and held a general council. It was settled that, as Paniput
was a considerable city, it would cover one of our
flanks by its buildings and houses, while we might fortify
our front by turas, or covered defences, and cannon ; and
that the matchlock-men and infantry would be placed in
the rear of the guns and turas/""" This council was held
* ' Memoirs,' p. 304.
30 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
at two days' inarch from Paniput. The Turks moved
forward two inarches on the 12th of April, and reached
that citj.
' On our right were the town and suburbs. In
uiy front I placed the guns and turas which had been
prepared. On the left, and on different other points, we
dug ditches, and made defences of the boughs of trees.
At bowshot-distance spaces were left large enough for a
hundred or a hundred and fifty men to issue forth. Many
of the troops were in great terror and alarm ; trepidation
and fear are always unbecoming. Whatever God Almighty
has decreed from all eternity cannot be reversed ; though,
at the same time, I cannot greatly blame them. They
had some reason ; for they had come two or three months'
journey from their own country ; we had to engage in
arms a strange nation, whose language we did not understand,
and who did not understand ours
7
(Persian).
' We
are all in difficulty, all in distraction, surrounded by a
people, bya strange people. The army of the enemy
opposed to us was estimated at one hundred thousand
men ; the elephants of the emperor and his officers were
said to amount to nearly one thousand. Ibrahim Lodi
possessed the accumulated treasures of his father and his
grandfather in current coin, ready for use. It is a usage
in Hindustan, in situations similar to that in which the
enemy now were, to expend sums of money in bringing
together troops, who engage to serve for hire. These
men are called Bedhindi. Had he chosen to adopt this
course, he might have engaged one or two hundred thotiFROM
PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 31
sand more troops. But God Almighty directed everything
for the best. Ibrahim Lodi had not the heart to
satisfy even his own army, and would not part with any
of his own treasure. Indeed, how was it possible that
he should satisfy his troops, when he was miserly to the
last degree, and beyond measure avaricious 1 He was a
young man of no experience ; he was negligent in all his
movements. He marched without order, retired or halted
without plan, and engaged in battle without forethought.
While the troops were fortifying their position in Pauiput
and its vicinity with guns, branches of trees, and
ditches, Dervesh Muhammed Sarban' (this, it may be
remembered, was the young soldier who would not
drink)
' said to me,
" You have fortified our ground in
such a way that it is not possible he should ever think
of coming here." I answered,
" You judge of him by
the Khans and Sultans of the Usbegs. It is true that,
the year in which we left Samarkand and came to
Hissar, a body of the Usbeg Khans and Sultans, having
collected and united together, set out from Derbend " '
(a
celebrated hill pass),
' "
in order to fall upon us. I
brought the families and property of all the Moghuls
and soldiers into the town and suburbs, and, closing all
the streets, put them in a defensible state. As these
Khans and Sultans of the Usbegs were perfectly versed
in the proper time and season for attacking and retiring,
they perceived that we were resolved to defend Hissar to
the last drop of our blood, and had fortified it under
32 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
that idea ; and, seeing no hopes of succeeding in their
enterprise, they fell back by Bundah Cheghanian. But
you must not judge of our present enemies by those
\vho were then opposed to us. They have not ability
to discriminate when it is proper to advance, and when
to retreat." God brought everything to pass favourably.
It happened as I foretold.''"
For the next seven or eight days, Ibrahim Lodi
allowed Baber to remain unmolested at Paniput, and to
strengthen his position there. Several minor attacks
were made by the invaders ; and in one of these,
Muhammed Ali Jeng-Jeng, one of Baber's favourite
officers, was wounded by an arrow, but not mortally.
In the course of the night of the 20th of April,
' We
had a false alarm for nearly one geri (twenty-four
minutes) ; the call to arms, and the uproar continued.
Such of the troops as had never before witnessed an
alarm of the kind were in great confusion and dismay. 't
In a short time, however, the alarm subsided. On the
morning of the 21st of April, the battle was fought that
gave India foreign masters for many centuries, and a
form of government that it still retains.
' By the time of early morning prayers, when the
light was such that you could just distinguish one
object from another, notice was brought from the
patrols that the enemy were advancing, drawn up in
order of battle. We, too, immediately braced on our
helmets and our armour, and mounted.'
* '
Memoirs,' pp. 304, 305. f * Memoirs,' p. 305.
FROM PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 33
Baber records the names of the officers who commanded
at Paniput, to the number of forty-three. On
this, as on all occasions, he records the services he received
from the men about him with generous appreciation.
The right division was led by Prince Humayon,
accompanied by Khwajeli Kilan (the follower who had
attended Baber's fortunes for so many years). In this
division also were Sultan Muhauimed Duldai, Baber's
cousin, from the great city of Herat and Hindu Bey, a
man of local experience ; he had for many years served
in Northern India as Turkish governor of Lahore. The
left division was commanded by Muhammed Sultan
Mirza, a prince of the house of Timour, Baber's cousin,
with instructions that, as soon as the enemy approached
sufficiently near, it should take a circuit and come
round upon their rear, a favourite tactics with the
Usbegs.
' When the enemy first came in sight, they seemed to
bend their force most against the right division. I
therefore detached Abdul-Aziz, who was stationed with
the reserve, to reinforce the right. Sultan Ibrahim's
army, from the time it first appeared in sight, never
made a halt, but advanced right upon us at a quick
pace. When they came closer, and, on getting view of
my troops, found them drawn up in order and with the
defences that have been mentioned, they were brought
up and stood for a while, as if considering whether to
3
34 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
halt or advance. They could not halt, and they were
unable to advance with the same speed as before. I
sent orders to the troops stationed as flankers on the
extremes of the right and left divisions, to wheel round
the enemy's flank with all possible speed, and instantly
to attack them in rear ; the right and left divisions were
also ordered to charge the enemy.''''" The Moghul
flankers accordingly wheeled upon the rear of the enemy,
and began to discharge arrows at them. Mehdi Khwajeh
(Baber's son-in-law), who commanded them, was in
danger of being taken 'by a body of men with one
elephant. Ustadi Ali Kuli discharged his guns many
times in front of the line to good effect ; Mustafa, the
cannoneer on the left centre, managed his artillery with
great effect. 't The calibre of this artillery is doubtful.
Baber mentions elsewhere cannon that took five hundred
men to draw ; and of a gun, cast by Ustal Ali Kuli,
which carried sixteen hundred paces. The battle continued
for two or three hours,
l the enemy made several
poor charges,'
'
they were huddled together in confusion,
and, while totally unable to advance, found also no road
by which they could flee.'
'The sun had mounted spear-high when the onset
began, and the combat lasted until midday, when the
enemy were completely broken and routed, and my
friends victorious and exulting. By the grace and mercy
of Almighty God, this arduous undertaking was ren-
*
'Memoirs,' p. 306. t Ibid. p. 307.
fROM PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 35
dered easy for ine, and this mighty army, in the space
of half a day, laid in the dust.' Sultan Ibrahim was
found lying dead, on a spot where five or six thousand
men were slain ; his head was brought to Baber, more
than one Rajpoot Rajah was killed. Many elephants
and Pathan Amirs were also taken. The same night,
without a minute's delay, Prince Ilumayon and Khwajeh
Kilan, with three or four other nobles, and some troops,
were despatched to take the Fort of Agra, seventy miles
away, the place where Ibrahim Lodi generally lived; while
Baber himself marched for the great city of Delhi.
Delhi for three thousand years had been a great city ;
it was contemporaneous with Nineveh and Babylon.
The city of Delhi of that day was called Firosabad ;
it was six miles round. On the rocky hill, which extends
on one side of the city, was a citadel, built by King
Feroze a hundred years before the Turkish invasion.
At the Bagdad gate was a large brass bull, taken from
the Hindoos by Ibrahim's father. On another side of
the city was King Feroze's other palace, in which stood
another trophy of war, a large monolith of stone, surmounted
by the Moslem emblem of the Crescent, shining
in brass ; on it were inscriptions in the Pali tongue,
which recalled a long- forgotten king, Asoka, the King
Alfred of Hindoo history. He was a Buddhist, who
impressed on his people kindness to kindred, the preservation
of animal life to the extent of not killing them
even for food, courtesy and gentleness to all men, which
32
36 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
remained characteristics of the Hindoos, ages after King
Asoka and his gentle Buddhist creed were forgotten bj
them.
Many mosques were in the city ; one, the ' Black
Mosque/ is still standing, grim and dark. A smaller
mosque, which also still exists, a hundred years before
had so much struck Baber's great ancestor, Tamerlane,
that he took the workmen away to Samarcand to erect
one like it in that city.
Baber expresses no surprise at the strength, splendour,
and extent of the mausoleums, palaces, and gardens that
strike Europeans of the present day with wonder and
surprise. The cities of Samarcand and Herat, which he
describes in his diary, must have exceeded even Delhi in
splendour.
One of the features of the architecture of the time
was that the buildings were decorated and ornamented
with encaustic tiles of the most beautiful shades of light
and dark blue, on which were drawn beautiful and most
artistic designs. In Persia and Samarcand, mosques of
the same period were also decorated with these blue
encaustic tiles.
The forty miles covered with remains of palaces,
mosques, gardens, mausoleums, caravansaries, wells,
bridges, around Delhi are the most wonderful and beautiful
ruins in the world. Such is the opinion of Fergusson,
the great writer on architecture. Bishop Heber said of
the Mohammedan builders in India, that '
they built like
FROM PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 37
giants, and finished like jewellers.' This tersely describes
the extraordinary strength of the masses of
wrought stone and their delicate finish, a strength that
has withstood five centuries of neglect. These Saracenic
builders used no wood in their buildings ; their cement is
as hard as iron, and this is the reason of its stability.
Their delicate carving was learnt from the Hindoos, who
executed the Saracenic designs. The Moslem creed
admits of no representation of human life. By the more
rigid Moslems, even pictures of butterflies and flowers
are considered idolatrous. The Hindoos, like the Greeks,
of whom they were the forefathers, idealised nature.
Baber entered Delhi, the capital of India, by the
south ; it took him two days to march from the field of
Paniput. He went over an ancient bridge, which still
stands, and passed by the handsome mausoleum of
Secunder Lodi, and visited the sights of the place, as
so many conquerors have done since. He wandered to
the Kootub, that strange, tall, unrivalled pillar, which
was raised to call the faithful to prayer in the splendid
mosque, open to the blue heavens, below ; a mosque
built of carved stones, from the ruined fanes of the
Hindoo idols. He visited the palace of Alla-o-deen (an
early Pathan king), an unrivalled work of art, now in
ruins, all except one gateway. It is one of the best
representations of the form and design of the Moslem
conquerors, with the wonderful carving of the patient
and industrious Hindoo.
38 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
Baber also saw a grave which to this day is kept up
and visited : the grave of Nizam Ed-din Aulia. This
man was supposed to be the founder of the Thugs, possibly
to have been connected with the Old Man of the
Mountain, the head of the assassins. The palace of
Nizam Ed- din still stands in ruins, massively built, without
arches, near the spot where he lies. Near the grave
of the author of so many political murders, stands the
grave of the poet Khousroo, whose songs are still
heard in the mouths of the peasantry of India.
Baber also visited the palace of his vanquished foe,
built round a lake, and his gardens, the ruins of which
still remain. But the house of Lodi, during their tenure
of power for sixty years, had mostly lived at Agra ; and
to Agra, leaving the capital of India, Baber hastened.
His last day at Delhi was spent in his usual manner, in
a boat on the river Jumna, where he drank ' arak' with
his friends.
Baber was justly proud of his great victory, and writes
of it thus :
' The most high God, of His grace and mercy, cast
down and defeated an enemy so mighty as Sultan Ibrahim,
and made me master and conqueror of the powerful
empire of Hindustan. From the time - of the blessed
Prophet (on whom, and on his family, be peace and salvation
!) down to the present time, three foreign kings
had subdued the country and acquired the sovereignty of
Hindustan. One of these was Sultan Mahmud Ghazi,
FROM PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 39
whose family long continued to fill the throne of that
country. The second was Sultan Shehabeddin Ghuri ;
and for many years his slaves and dependents swayed
the sceptre of these realms. I am the third ; but my
achievement is not to be put on a level with theirs ; for
Sultan Mahmud, at the time when he conquered Hindustan,
occupied the throne of Khorasan, and had absolute
power and dominion over the Sultans of Khwarizm, and
the surrounding chiefs. The King of Samarcand, too, was
subject to him. If his army did not amount to two
hundred thousand, yet, grant that it was only one hundred
thousand, and it is plain that the comparison between
the two conquests must cease. Moreover, his enemies
were Rajahs. All Hindustan was not at that period
subject to a single emperor ; every Rajah set up for a
monarch on his own account in his own petty territories.
Again, though Sultan Shehabeddin Ghuri did not himself
enjoy the sovereignty of Khorasan, yet his elder brother,
Sultan Ghiaseddin Ghuri held it. In the Tabakat-e-
Nasiri (a very good history of the Mussulman world) it
is said that on one occasion he marched into Hindustan
with one hundred and twenty thousand Cataphract horse.
His enemies, too, were Rais and Rajahs. A single
monarch did not govern the whole of Hindustan. When
I marched into Behreh, we might amount to one thousand
five hundred, or two thousand men at the utmost.
When I invaded the country for the fifth time, overthrew
Sultan Ibrahim, and subdued the empire of Hindustan, I
40 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
had a larger army than I had ever before brought into it.
My servants, the merchants and their servants, and the
followers of all descriptions that were in the camp along
with me, were numbered, and amounted to twelve thousand
men. The kingdoms that depended upon me were
Badakhshan, Kundez, Kabul, and Kandahar; but these
countries did not furnish me with assistance equal to their
resources, and indeed some of them, from their vicinity
to the enemy, were so circumstanced that, far from affording
me assistance, I was obliged to send them extensive
supplies from other territories. Besides this, all Maweralnaher
'
(Baber's native country, Transoxiana)
' was occupied
by the Khans and Sultans of the Usbegs, whose
armies were calculated to amount to about one hundred
thousand men, and who were my ancient foes. Finally,
the whole empire of Hindustan, and Behrer to Behar,
was in the hands of the Afghans. Their prince, Sultan
Ibrahim, from the resources of his kingdom, could bring
into the field an army of five hundred thousand men.
At the time some of the Amirs to the east were in a state
of rebellion. His army on foot was computed -to be a
hundred thousand strong ; his own elephants, and those
of his Amirs, were reckoned as nearly a thousand. Yet,
under such circumstances, and in spite of this power,
placing my trust in God, and leaving behind me nay old
and inveterate enemy, the Usbegs, who had an army of a
hundred thousand men, I advanced to meet so powerful
a prince as Sultan Ibrahim, the lord of numerous armies,
FROM PESHA WUR TO DELHI. 41
and the emperor of extensive territories. I bestowed
the office of Shekdar '
(military collector)
' of Delhi on
Wali Kazil.' (He was the officer who commanded the
flanking party of Moghuls at Paniput. The Shekdar
was an officer, who received the revenue, and also
commanded the troops.)
' I made Dost the Diwan of
Delhi, and directed the different treasures to be sealed
and given into their charge.'"''
On the 26th, six days after his great victory, Baber
started on his march to Agra, sixty miles away, and
passed by Toghlakabad. There is there a very strong
fortress, and the splendid mausoleum of the Afghan ruler
who reigned in the year 1412.
Moulana Mahmud and Sheikh Zin, two priests, went
from Toghlakabad into Delhi for Friday prayers, and read
the Kutbeh in Baber's name, distributed some money
among the Fakirs and beggars, and then returned back.
The reading the Kutbeh (the king's titles and genealogy)
is a religious service usual on a new king coming to the
throne.
On the 4th of May Baber reached the outskirts of
Agra, and went to the palace of Suliman Fermuli, a
Pathan noble of Ibrahim's court. The next day he went
to the palace of Jilal Khan Jighat, another Indian Bey,
nearer the fort. Baber found that the strong fort of
Agra was in the possession of the Hindoo troops of
Bikermajit, Rajah of Gwalior,
c his family and clan/
*
'Memoirs,' pp. 308, 309,
42 THE INVASIONS OF INDIA.
Bikerniajit himself had been ' sent to hell
'
(the charitable
mode in which a good Mussulman signifies the death of
an infidel), fighting at the side of Ibrahim at the fatal
field of Paniput. Baber states that,
' When Humajon
arrived, Bikermajit's people attempted to escape, but
were taken by parties Humajon had placed upon the
watch, and put into custody. Huniayon did not allow
them to be plundered. Of their own free-will, they presented
to Huniayon a peshkesh
'
(tribute),
'
consisting of
a quantity of jewels and precious stones. Among these
was one famous diamond which had been acquired by
Sultan Alaeddin. It is so valuable that a judge of
diamonds valued it at half the daily expense of the whole
world. It is about eight miskals
'
(672 carats).
' On
my arrrival, Huniayon presented it to me as a peshkesh,
and I gave it back to him as a present/*
This stone is the Koh-i-noor, now in the possession of
her Majesty. It remained in Baber's family for two
hundred years, when, in 1739, it was taken by Nadir
Shah. The English took it from Runjeet Singh's family,
1848; when the British army presented it to her Majesty.
The Indians have a superstition that the owner of it is
unfortunate.

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Postby Nirantar » 27 Sep 2007 22:42

I would like to read such books again and again, however humiliating it is; for the reason that it will keep me awake from the external dangers. The safeguards India took post 1947 are the learning from such history.

Can any mo-fo turk pan asia-europe have an eye on us now?


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Postby Airavat » 28 Sep 2007 05:59



What do these sites say about the origin of the "Tulwar"?

We know that the Muslims called their swords Shamshir and it were the Hindus that started using the term Tulwar for the curved sword...but what is the meaning of this word?

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Postby Shwetank » 28 Sep 2007 08:51

Airavat, there's the usual problem of no good records surviving previous to Mughal times. Most information is also available in books, very little good on web. Regardless, the tulwar almost certainly based on Persian Shamshirs (which were slightly different from Arab ones I think). One member points to E. Jaiwant Paul's book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", where the author states it started to be used in the 15-16th century (some other sources say as early as 13th century). Also says that there is little information available concerning weapons in India from the 13th-16th century but that starting about 1550 you see the shamshir appear in miniature paintings. Jaiwant's book itself makes references to Rawsons "The Indian Sword", a must read for anyone who wants to know about Indian edged weapons, extensive info. he researched from all over the place. But please note Rawson wrote his book a while back and seems to have perhaps a colonielist tilt, and is very hasty in giving foreign influences or origins for a lot of weapons. As to the meaning of tulwar, havn't seen much on it, will search around or ask, the only one i've come up with is the one on your blog where you say the 'var' is "to strike" :P .

Here's a Google Book link to Jaiwant's book with 18 pages scattered across it, it's high quality with some very nice pictures of some very nice specimens: Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India

For those interested in ancient weapons, like Rahul M, there's also some pics. of old weapons like an antennae sword and harpoon above, but very early. Rahul M, I think you'll be safe with using leaf-shaped blades or parallel edeged blades of short length, those were definetaly there. For longer blades I'm not sure, read up on Arthashastra, contains a tonne of information giving details on local stuff and Indica ? by those visiting greeks with Alexander. Quite a lot can be gleaned indirectly. Again best recommendation is reading books and Rawson's one has a lot facts (you can judge his conclusions for yourself). Also considering the whole contact with Greeks thing and how much you consider they influenced us, you could look at ancient Greek weapons from that time like the kopis. There are those believing the greek's brought us isolated dimwits this new knowledge and so we must have adopted there equipment :roll: .

Rawson also states with certainty for example that the khukuri was derived from Greek kopis. Here's a link from the excellent Himalyan Imports on history of khukris , Also half-way down the page there's a very good picture of curved blades in the subcontinent and their dates, should be useful Rahul M. : http://www.himalayan-imports.com/khukuri-history.html

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Postby Paul » 28 Sep 2007 14:29

More on the Persian-Mughal alliance when Babur was nothing more than a freebooter....Will write more on his feud with the Uzbeks later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash


Qizilbash cavalryman, Safavid periodIn 1510 Shah Ismail sent a large force of the Qizilbash to Transoxania to support the Timurid ruler Babur in his war against the Uzbeks. The Qizilbash defeated the Uzbeks and secured Samarqand for Babur. However, in 1512, an entire Qizilbash army was annihilated by the Uzbeks after Turcoman Qizilbash had mutinied against their Persian wakil and commander, Amir Nadjm.[11] This heavy defeat put an end to Safavid expansion and influence in Transoxania and the northeastern frontiers of the kingdom remained vulnerable to nomad invasions.



FWIW...Paki president Yahya Khan and Invader Nadir Shah claimed to be of Qizilbash origin.

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Postby Sanku » 28 Sep 2007 15:13

Rahul M wrote:Along with a friend of mine, who happens to be pretty deft with the brush, I've started out
a comics set in the early Mauryan era. I intend to keep the historical facts as correct as
possible, which is why I've been asking so many questions !

wish me luck, fellow BRFites !!


You have many wishes from my Rahul; go and conquer.

BTW; did you refer to or use Amar Chitra Katha series by IBH? When growing up they were practially the first contact to knowledge of any sort for me and they have completely moulded my thinking as well as a great part of my knowledge of India. The more serious reading came much later but never disagreed with or surmounted the first impressions.

If you have never come across it; you should try and get hold of some. The older ones (first publications) were priceless and much better than later ones. Unfortunately I gave away my entire collection of 200+ books when I grew up to a young chap some where far far away. Stupid me.

Amar Chitra Katha

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Postby bala » 02 Oct 2007 01:14

The ancient land of Indonesia Bali, whose Indic influence is still widespread but frozen in ancient Puranic times, is under constant assault by the Islamists and others.

dancers perform the Kecak dance during the opening session of Ubud art festival, a special few days when the rich arts of this island is showcased.

Image

Hindu devotees leave a temple after praying on Beshaki, one of the island's biggest festival that marks the beginning of the Hindu calendar here.

Image

A temple on the island. Hindus make up 93 per cent of the island's population of 3.1 million.

Image

Francois Gautier, a French writer and journalist based in India for the last 33 years, visited Indonesia recently and made a special journey to the island of Bali. He offers his unusual impressions of this island, one of the country's 33 provinces, and famous for its temples and performing arts. Bali is a majority Hindu island in the world's most populous Muslim nation.

For a lover of India's spirituality, Hinduism in Bali represents a refreshing and wonderful experience. Balinese Hinduism is a Puranic one that came peacefully from India in the fourth century AD.
Because there was no real connection with India after the eighth century, it remained pure and was not diluted by the ritualism of the later Vedantic Indian period.

Balinese Hindus worship one Supreme Divinity, although you do find many of the Hindu Gods -- Ganesh, Vishnu (called Wishnu), Shiva etc. There are women priests, something that is missing in modern Indian Hinduism. Homes are temples in themselves, which create strong family bonding.
When Balinese do go to temples, twice or three times a year, it is a marvellous informal, non-ritualistic ceremony, which has Buddhist (when Buddhism was not dissociated from Hinduism) and Tibetan similarities. Like the way women raise their hands over their heads, a flower in it, or how they stack food offerings (Tibet must have received some of the same influences as Bali from an ancient non self-centred Buddhism).
Yet, Balinese Hinduism is facing multiple threats.

From Islam, of course, firstly. Although Indonesia is a secular country and there is, and has been, genuine attempts at giving the country's multiple provinces some kind of federalism, two hundred thousand Hindus were massacred in terrible pogroms in 1965 by the Indonesian army. Bali's extremely deadly Islamic bombings in 2002, which targeted Westerners, as well as Hindus, have also given a serious jolt to Balinese Hindus.
Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country in the world and the three million Hindus of Bali stand fragile and vulnerable in the face of this huge majority, which allowed Abu Bakar Bashir, the so called 'spiritual leader' of the 2002 bombers to receive a very light sentence and be released in 2006.

As the Chinese did in Tibet, the Indonesian government is also quietly encouraging immigration of Muslims to Bali, particularly from Java. Today, Hindus comprise only 60 per cent of the population of Denpasar, Bali's capital, whereas they were 91 per cent in 1990. Mosques, which were a rarity in Bali, are now springing up everywhere.

Tourism is also a threat to Bali.

With it has come paedophilia, crime, drinking, drugs, without mentioning the fact that most big hotels are owned by outsiders and not Balinese.
There has been a sudden drop in arrival of Western tourism after the bombings -- some say up to 70 per cent -- and the Indonesian government has been promoting 'domestic' tourism.

That sounds fine, except that Indonesians, mostly Muslims, do not have the same respect for Bali's cultural and ecological beauty that Westerners have, and may even be hostile to Hindus.

Tourism kills the soul of a country and Bali, such a small country, is already showing signs of the decay in its culture and ethos: in Sanur or Kutti, Denpasar's most famous beaches, every shop is devoted to cheap tourist artefacts and every other person hassles you for a massage, a souvenir, or a restaurant. Luckily, as soon as you move a little bit inland, Hindus there seem to have retained much of their culture and innocence. But time presses as Bali is so defenceless because of that very innocence.
The third threat, which Bali faces -- and that is really paradoxical -- is from Hindus.

Visiting Hindus scholars from India have thought that Balinese Hinduism is 'unorthodox' and needs to realign itself to a Vedantic mode.
This has created the beginning of a split amongst Balinese Hindus.
A small group, led by some of the teachers of the Bali Hindu University, which has more than a thousand students, are trying to bring into line Balinese Hinduism with its sister Indian concern, encouraging Balinese Hindus to go for tirtha yatras to India and visit Varanasi, Haridwar, Badrinath, Kurukshetra etc. They say that Balinese Hinduism missed the reforms introduced by Shankaracharya and that it should reconnect with Vedantic Hinduism -- rather than a Puranic one -- and they want to abolish castes, even though castes do not play an important role on the island.
There is another school of thought which wants to preserve Balinese culture; its individuality, its worship of one single divinity, its home temples and unique ways of worship. And thank god, at the moment, it is still in majority.


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Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2007 21:53

I was always curious about the rivalry between Jaichand and Prithivraj. Are the related before the swaymavar of Samyukta? What were the relations between Jaichand and Ghori that he colluded with the later?

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Postby Anand K » 02 Oct 2007 22:30

Before the Imperial Chauhans controlled Delhi it was under the Tomars. The Tomars claimed to be direct descendants of the Pandavas themselves and claimed all of Aryavarta as their birthright. This was about the same time the Gahadavalas came into power in Kannauj after defeating the last scion of the Pratiharas....
Now the rest of the story sounds like a Thevar Magan/Viraasat family drama.... The Chauhans (originally from Ajmer) under King Bisaladeva conquered Delhi Tomars. Instead of annexing that kingdom he used it as a buffer against Ghaznavids and the Gahadavalas..... he also got his favorite nephew Someswara to marry the Tomar's daughter Ruka Devi. The problem was that her elder sis was already married off to the Gahadavala King Vijaychand. And IIRC the Chauhans of Delhi and Chauhans of Ajmer-Sambhar fell out soon after this... the split continued to Prithviraj Chauhan III conquered Ajmer.
After Bisaladeva's death and a host of successors, PrithviRaj Chauhan III, son of Someswara captured power in Delhi and Ajmer in 1177. His cousin Jaichand (son of Vijay Chand) had already ascended the throne of Kannauj in 1170. Now because of these conflicting claims to Supremacy through Tomar blood and the (next) three-way fight b/w Chauhans of Sambhar and Imperial Chauhans and Gahadavalas, things had been quite messed up up north. Chauhan's annexation on Mahoba (at a great cost) from the Chandelas and the (alleged) loss of capable lieutenants while carrying off Samyukta also weakened him seriously. Some historians say that Chauhan-Samyukta story is more "Rakshasa" type marriage of old.... you know, the hijack the bloodline/H & D thing than some Dilwale Dulhaniya Le Jayenge.....

Jaichand AFAIK didn't support Ghori.... but he sat out. Maybe if he sent his troops to bulwark Chauhan's forces it might have turned the tide against Ghori. In fact he lost out narrowly to Ghori-Aibek at a decisive battle for Kashi. It was that Hemu thing again, arrow in the eye and the whole Gahadavala army melted away...

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Postby Lalmohan » 02 Oct 2007 22:50

Gurcharan Sandhu's books on Indian warfare in ancient and medieval times touches on these battles. It says that Chauhan had Mahmud on the run and could have wiped him out in his camp - except that Rajput ethics prevented him from doing so. A few days later the same Mahmud fought Chauhan again in open battle - where the Rajputs using static tactics were not able to deal with the mobile Turkic tactics and their battle formations were broken up and then destroyed. Amongst several failures....

1. observing rules of war against an enemy that did not
2. not being ruthless enough when he had the advantage, particularly against a foe that was utterly ruthless
3. not using cavalry as a shock weapon, when he could see his enemy clearly doing so to great effect
4. not being flexible enough on the field - sticking to outdated arthashastra battle formations and...
5. ...not using messengers to his field units during battle to deal with changing enemy tactics

and so on

it appears that in most encounters where Hindu forces could fight a static battle with secure flanks and poor terrain for cavalry - they usually gave the Muslim invaders a good kicking. Usually either failing to pursue when enemy was on the run, or pursuing when a partially weakened enemy could regroup on terrain more suitable to cavalry - thereby handing the initiative back to the invaders.

however - as for the invaders... it seems obvious to me now that although they may have held certain key cities, they never really totally dominated the land, not even in Mughal times, except perhaps in modern Afghanistan

So much for Islamic conquest

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Postby SwamyG » 03 Oct 2007 00:05

What are patas? Am I correct in stating that this is a type of sword/knife? Google University did not help me much.

thanks.

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Postby cbelwal » 03 Oct 2007 00:51

Indians have no sense of History ! Its amazing that the BJP is the only party which is protesting such disrespect to the 1857 martyrs.

Sadly enough the school I went to in Lucknow, La Martiniere prides itself on the role it played to crush the first war of independance. They still wear that batch with pride.

SwamyG wrote:Admins, Just did not know the most appropriate forum for this, as it is about a historical battle I post it here, but please move where ever you deem it fit:
Indian patriots vow to block Britons on mutiny tourist trail

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Postby ParGha » 03 Oct 2007 02:06

SwamyG wrote:What are patas? Am I correct in stating that this is a type of sword/knife? Google University did not help me much.

thanks.


A "pata" is a short-sword-gauntlet. Probably of Central Indian/Deccan origin. Together with chain-mail, it probably provided the most comprehensive light armored soldier possible in medieval India.

Shwentak has provided some good examples of pata.

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Postby Keshav » 03 Oct 2007 06:32

bala wrote: Although Indonesia is a secular country and there is, and has been, genuine attempts at giving the country's multiple provinces some kind of federalism, two hundred thousand Hindus were massacred in terrible pogroms in 1965 by the Indonesian army.


It seems Indians have grown quite accustomed to these sorts of numbers associated with any sentence containing the words "massacre" "Hindu" "thousands"/"millions".

This is absolutely ridiculous.

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Postby svinayak » 03 Oct 2007 06:47

Maratha wrote:
bala wrote: Although Indonesia is a secular country and there is, and has been, genuine attempts at giving the country's multiple provinces some kind of federalism, two hundred thousand Hindus were massacred in terrible pogroms in 1965 by the Indonesian army.


It seems Indians have grown quite accustomed to these sorts of numbers associated with any sentence containing the words "massacre" "Hindu" "thousands"/"millions".

This is absolutely ridiculous.


This is the reason why the Indonesian Govt supported Pakistan during the 1965 war. They even sent some arms to Pakistan and also wanted to change the name of Indian Ocean.

This pogrom was a sense of control over the destiny of non Muslims in that part of the region.

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Postby Keshav » 03 Oct 2007 08:27

It has always been a question of mine as to why India does not support the Hindu/Indian diaspora in the same way the Saudi's and Iranians, do - millions of dollars for Mosques, Qu'ran training programs, and what not.

Only Gujurati's have the money to build temples like Akshardam, but the rest of the Indians/Hindus have no unified initiative.

They always leave it to the White people and they end up creating "Christian Yoga" and other non-sense.

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Postby disha » 03 Oct 2007 09:29

Maratha wrote:Only Gujurati's have the money to build temples like Akshardam, but the rest of the Indians/Hindus have no unified initiative.


OT on this thread, but "only gujurati's" do not have money. I have seen more "money"ed telugus, tamils, malyalees, marathis, punjabis, biharis and bengalis!

So it is not just money that is the factor. Why?

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Postby Lkawamoto » 03 Oct 2007 10:34

Airavat wrote:


What do these sites say about the origin of the "Tulwar"?

We know that the Muslims called their swords Shamshir and it were the Hindus that started using the term Tulwar for the curved sword...but what is the meaning of this word?


i believe talwar is also a town in maharashtra,
talwalkar is a maratha last name (sirname),
it may or may not be related to talwar (sword)

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Postby Murugan » 03 Oct 2007 11:57

Tulwar


All talwars and shamsirs and other weapons look alike are derived from Khadag, kharag or Khanda - the original Kharag looks like the one used by Durga Mata in Hindu mythology and the one used by Ravana or Mahishasur.

The surname Talwalkar is different from Tulwar. The surname is found in CK Brahmins of Maharashtra.

Tulwar is a surname in Gujarati Rajputs.

also see:
http://www.info-sikh.com/PageShastar1.htm

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Postby ParGha » 03 Oct 2007 17:34

Murugan wrote:
Tulwar


All talwars and shamsirs and other weapons look alike are derived from Khadag, kharag or Khanda - the original Kharag looks like the one used by Durga Mata in Hindu mythology and the one used by Ravana or Mahishasur.


Not quite true: Talwars have khanda influence, but shamshir and saif certainly don't. The single-edged, curve back cavalry swords are generally accepted to have spread from what we now call Kazakhstan. From that original steppe design comes the later Chinese Dao, Indian Tulwar, Persian Saif and Egyptian Mamlukes. Of course it is slightly possible that all those places may have come to the same design independently (like Greek kopis, Kurdish yaghatan and Gurkha khukri - all of them look somewhat alike in the basic design - but it is one of those rare cases of designers coming up with same solution even in isolation) - but I doubt it in the case of these swords.

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Postby Murugan » 04 Oct 2007 09:12

Talwars have khanda influence, but shamshir and saif certainly don't. The single-edged, curve back cavalry swords are generally accepted to have spread from what we now call Kazakhstan.


Kazakhstan is not far from acian indian boundaries.


***


Rahul M wrote:
Along with a friend of mine, who happens to be pretty deft with the brush, I've started out
a comics set in the early Mauryan era. I intend to keep the historical facts as correct as
possible, which is why I've been asking so many questions !

wish me luck, fellow BRFites !!



Rahul,

I wish you all the best. You have the luck - try and 'Chak De'.

***

Ramanaji,

Chandragupta Maurya and 800-900 years after him The Guptas are the best example of Great Indian Empires.

The Samudragupta affairs need to be studied in-depth. His was the time of another epoch of assertive, prosperous and victorious india and just kings ruling this land. Samudragupta is another kind who carried out Ashwamedh Yagya, - by not subjugating people by sword but by the might of his decisions and assertiveness.

The stories of Kumargupta is equally enchanting. Skandagupta's victory over Huns need to be highlighted in students' history books too.

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Postby SBajwa » 04 Oct 2007 18:08

Can somebody please explain the origin of the following words whether it is Sanskrit or Persian or ??

Talwar
Kirpan
Khanda
Khadag
Khukhri

Dharmavir
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re

Postby Dharmavir » 04 Oct 2007 18:47

Can somebody please explain the origin of the following words whether it is Sanskrit or Persian or ??

Talwar
Kirpan
Khanda
Khadag
Khukhri

The first 4 words are definitely from Sanskrit, the last word I am not sure, but it does not sound Persian or Arabic.
[quote]H तलवार talwÄ

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Postby SBajwa » 04 Oct 2007 22:25

Thanks!! more words.


Tal War = Tal means ??? I know that War in sanskrit means "To Strike"

Kirpa = mercy or please
aan = izzat? (is aan Sanskrit or Persian?) does it makes sense?

Khukrhi =Khu probably derived from "Khoon" but khoon is "persian" or is Lahu persian.


----- Talking about Historical weapons. Here is what Guru Gobind singh says about weapons in Dasam Granth in Page 1356 which is described as "Shastra Mala"

Saang sarohisaiph as teer tupak talvaar|| Sattraantak kavchaant(i) kar kareeai rachchh hamaar||1||

O Lord ! Protect us by creating Saang, Sarohi, Saif (Sword), As, Teer (arrow) tupak (gun), Talwaar (sword), and other weapons and armours causing the destruction of the enemies.1.

Line 6

As ikRpwn DwrwDrI sYl sUP jmdwF ] kvcWqk s~qRWq kr qyg qIr DrbwF ] 2]

As kripaan dhaaraabaa?h sail sooph jamdaa?h|| Kavchaantak sattraant kar teg teer dharbaa?h||2||

O Lord ! Creat As, Kripan (sword), Dharaddhari, Sail, Soof, Jamaadh, Tegh (saber), Teer (saber), Teer (arrow), Talwar(sward), causing the destruction of armours and enemies.2.

Line 7


As ikRpwn KMfo KVg qupk qbr Aru qIr ] sYP srohI sYhQI XhY hmwrY pIr ] 3]

As kripaan khan?o kha?ag tupak tabar ar(u) teer|| Saiph sarohisaihathiyahaihamaarai peer||3||

As, Kripan (sword), Khanda, Khadag (sword), Tupak (gun), Tabar (hatched), Teer (arrow), Saif (sword), Sarohi and Saihathi, all these are our adorable seniors.3.

Line 8


qIr quhI sYhQI quhI quhI qbr qlvwr ] nwm iqhwro jo jpY Bey isMD Bv pwr ] 4]

Teer tuhisaihathituhituhitabar talvaar|| Naam tihaaro jo japai bhae sindh bhav paar||4||

Thou are the Teer (arrow), Thou are Saihathi, Thou art Tabar (hatchet), and Talwaar (sword); he, who remembers Thy Name crosses the dreadful ocean of existence.4.

Line 9


kwl quhI kwlI quhI quhI qyg Aru qIr ] quhI inSwnI jIq kI Awju quhI jgbIr ] 5]

Kaal tuhikaalituhiteg ar(u) teer|| Tuhinishaanijeet kiaaj(u) tuhijagheer||5||

Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5.

Line 10


quhI sUl sYhQI qbr qMU inKMg Aru bwn ] quhI ktwrI syl sB qumhI krd ikRpwn ] 6]

Tuhisool saihathitabar toon nidhang ar(u) baan|| Tuhikataarisel sabh tum-hikarad kripaan||6||

Thou art the Sool (spike), Saihathi and Tabar (hatched), Thou art the Nikhang and Baan (arrow), Thou art the Kataari, Sel, and all and Thou art the Kard (knife), and Kripaan (sword).6.

Line 11


SsqR AsqR qumhI ispr qumhI kvc inKMg ] kvcWqk qumhI bny qum bXwpk srbMg ] 7]

Shastra astra tum-hisipar tum-hikavach nidha?g|| Kavchaantak tum-hibane tum byaapak sarbang||7||

Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.

Line 12


sRI qUM sB kwrn quhI qMU ib~dXw ko swr ] qum sB ko auprwjhI qumhI lyhu aubwr ] 8]

Sritoon sabh kaaran tuhitoon biddyaa ko saar|| Tum sabh ko upraaj-hitum-hilehu ubaar||8||

Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning; Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8.

Line 13


qumhI idn rjnI quhI qumhI jIAn aupwie ] kauqk hyrn ky nimq iqn mo bwd bFwie ] 9]

Tum-hidin rajnituhitum-hijian upaae|| Kautak heran ke namit tim no baad ba?haae||9||

Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.

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Postby Dharmavir » 05 Oct 2007 03:53

Tal War = Tal means ??? I know that War in sanskrit means "To Strike"

Kirpa = mercy or please
aan = izzat? (is aan Sanskrit or Persian?) does it makes sense?

Khukrhi =Khu probably derived from "Khoon" but khoon is "persian" or is Lahu persian.

Not sure what Tal means.

Yes Kripa/Daya in Sanskrit means mercy.

Never heard "aan" for respect, we use Gauravam, aadhar used in Hindi is from Sanskrit.

I do not think Kripa for mercy & Kirpan have anything to do with each other, often many Sanskrit words have multiple meanings that may not be related to one another.

Khoon is Persian, Hatya is Sanskrit (or alternatively if you are using Khoon for blood then Rakht or Lahu are the Sanskrit derived alternatives).
As, Kripan (sword), Khanda, Khadag (sword), Tupak (gun), Tabar (hatched), Teer (arrow), Saif (sword), Sarohi and Saihathi, all these are our adorable seniors.3.
Of these the Persian derives ones that I know of are:

Tegh = Asi
Teer = Bhaan
Tabar = Parasu
Jamaadh
Soof
Tupak = shataaghni (Tupak I think is from Turkish)
Saif = Asi, Khadga

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Postby Airavat » 05 Oct 2007 04:26

SBajwa wrote:----- Talking about Historical weapons. Here is what Guru Gobind singh says about weapons in Dasam Granth in Page 1356 which is described as "Shastra Mala"

Saang sarohisaiph as teer tupak talvaar|| Sattraantak kavchaant(i) kar kareeai rachchh hamaar||1||

O Lord ! Protect us by creating Saang, Sarohi, Saif (Sword), As, Teer (arrow) tupak (gun), Talwaar (sword), and other weapons and armours causing the destruction of the enemies.1.


Shastra astra tum-hisipar tum-hikavach nidha?g|| Kavchaantak tum-hibane tum byaapak sarbang||7||

Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.


Tum-hidin rajnituhitum-hijian upaae|| Kautak heran ke namit tim no baad ba?haae||9||

Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9.


Very interesting Bajwa!

The "Sarohi" written in the first passage is probably the Sirohi sword, which had a reputation for being very light and flexible. Saif is the Persian (or Arabic) word for sword? Saang is a reference to artillery.

What is the language of the Dasam Granth?? It appears to be a sort of mix of different languages...is it because Guru Govind Singh's father lived in Patna (Bihar) for a long time?

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re

Postby Dharmavir » 05 Oct 2007 04:34

What is the language of the Dasam Granth?? It appears to be a sort of mix of different languages...is it because Guru Govind Singh's father lived in Patna (Bihar) for a long time?

The primary language used was Braj Bhasha.

And Sarohi is from the Sirohi sword.

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Postby SBajwa » 05 Oct 2007 17:02

Dasam Granth is many mixed languages.

The very famous letter in verse written to Aurungzeb by Sri Guru Gobind Singh is is Persian (farsi) named Zafarnama in which he describes that how the emperor (Aurungzeb) has lost the battle after murdering his Sikhs, his father,mother and his sons.

Then Chaubis Avatar is in Sanskrit.

You can go to http://www.sridasam.org to read it in Hindi, Punjabi or English.

Here is some part of the Zafarnama

ਦਾਸਤਾਨ ॥ ਹਿਕਾਯਤ ਪਹਿਲੀ ॥
दासतान ॥ हिकायत पहिली ॥
STORY, HIKAYAT I (PARABLE I)

ਮਰਾ à¨

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Postby Shwetank » 06 Oct 2007 00:07

Some high quality pieces with good pics. Again as with all links I recommend saving any info or pics. you want for reference to hard drive as sites are going down all the time and items for sale disappear along with their pics.

Chillanum - Deccani dagger, pesh-kabz, Khukri, Maratha sword, Deccan dagger-sculpted Yali with scales, early South Indian katar

Rarer items:
Ram Dao - later period but still nice specimen
Singhalese knife -Piha Kaetta
Nice South Indian Pata with demon/tiger head and rare wax casting intact - very nice piece-note flower head decorated rivet
Nepali Bull-sacrifice Ram Dao
early katar- probably Vijayanagar empire
Deccani dagger
Deccan sword - flared disc infront of hilt on blade
pata with hinged arm strap
Flail Mace

Many items above are for sale, from Ashoka Arts site- always has good quality stuff which is hard to find on any online sites. Here's a link to some of their sold items, problem is the close-up pics are removed for sold items, some very rare and nice specifmens including Indian ones, some nice daggers and a rare South Indian flamboyant sword - annoyed that I wasn't there when it was on sale and could get a better look at it :x .
Sold rare items-edged weapons,There's more pages, click on sometimes hard to see next page link on bottom (I think page changes color). Also missed some nice battle axes, probably central Indian. :(

Will add more, shortage time. Also wondering if I should post diagrams from Rawson's book. I've seen them posted elsewhere and a few diagrams without text shouldn't be any breach of laws hopefully.

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Postby surinder » 09 Oct 2007 21:38

Airavat wrote:What is the language of the Dasam Granth?? It appears to be a sort of mix of different languages...is it because Guru Govind Singh's father lived in Patna (Bihar) for a long time?


Dasam Granth has the writing of the 10th Guru, it is 1429 pages. Mostly the Guru wrote in Braj Bhasha. So you are indeed correct. In the Guru's writings: there is some use of Sanskrit, and some Persian, and very little Punjabi. But those seem to be written for specific purposes (e.g. Persian was used to write a scathing letter to Aurangzeb). I know of only one hymn of him in Punjabi language ("Mitr pyare noo ..."). But mostly it is Braj Bhasha. Guru Gobind Singh was born and brought up in Patna and I think he spoke Braj Bhasha most commonly and naturally. My dad's close friend was an Eastern UP Brahmin who spoke Braj Bhasha at home. He had the Dasam Granth at home and would exult when he read it. He was would tell us "it is our language, bhai sahib".

Surinder

PS: Not so well known, but Guru ji wrote the Krishna Leela and Raam's life also. So it was another ramayana contained there.

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Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2007 07:02

A few good books available in google. However cant download. :(

Google books recommendation:

The Rise of the Indo-Afghan Empire, C.1710-1780 By Jos J. L. Gommans

ANd

Al-Hind, the Making of the Indo-Islamic World By Andre Wink

and
India Before Europe
By Catherine Ella Blanshard Asher, Cynthia Talbot

Airavta, They are good refs for you. Very pricey on Amazon.


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