Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Guest » 19 Nov 2002 09:06

Fernandes on Vohra report on Indo-China war. "Making covert actions public after 40 years would reopen wounds which have already been healed"
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=96763

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby JCage » 19 Nov 2002 11:39

Kaps,
Finally!

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby member_201 » 19 Nov 2002 20:23

This article mentions Bharat Rakshak and L.N. Subramanian. Way to go Subra!

-------------------------

13 Kumaon's Last Stand: Chushul, November 18, 1962

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/19rajeev.htm

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby daulat » 19 Nov 2002 21:46

Discussions on this theme (off BR) has led to a request from someone connected to this article [chushul/13 kumaon] - will BR start to properly document all historic victories by Indian armies through history. there are many that are forgotten a la chushul.

We should also start a movement to start naming locations, etc. after famous warriors of modern times (not just Shivaji) but also change Connaught Place with Manekshaw Place and the like

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Subra » 19 Nov 2002 21:55

Nice to see the link. Rakesh the References seem to have gone AWOL. I will resend the reference list later.

One note- I wrote this article more with respect to what might have been if our politicians and military brass had no lost their collective nerve. I think that is the part we need to emphasize and discuss. The bravery aspect is no different than the Battles at Walong, Namka Chu etc. But here the Indian Army actually displayed a lot of skill and gave a glimmer of what might have been. With the additional divisions being moved from the West and the Air Force brought in and winter coming - the Chinese could have been beaten.

George J

Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby George J » 19 Nov 2002 23:40

Great article and all, but Mr.Srinivasan needs to do better research, especially since he has so eloquenty compared the heroics of Maj. Shaitan Singh to the Light Brigade and Gen. Custer.

How can a man die better,
than facing fearful odds,
for the ashes of his fathers,
and the temple of this gods.
This verse needs to be given its due credit too. Its from 'Horatius' by Lord Thomas Babington Macaulay (Lays of Ancient Rome-1842). Thats the same lord Macaulay who was instrumental in formulating the indian penal code.

Lord Macaulay, the chairman of the first Law Commission said: "I believe that no country ever stood so much in need of a code of law as India, and I believe also that there never was a country in which the want might be so easily supplied. The principle is simply this - uniformity when you can have it; diversity when you must have it; but, in all cases, certainty."
Now about the verse itself, it's what brave Horatius says when he volunteers to defended a bridge alone against the invading armies of Sextus. Now is the verse in itself befitting what Major Shaitan Singh did rather than quote now pedestrian Tennyson verse????

LNS, it would be great to know who thought of inscribing that verse on the memorial, at least that soldier knew his poetry better than jingos and online scribes.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby ramana » 20 Nov 2002 00:21

GeorgeJ, I posted the Srinvasan link in the right thread in the GH&CAF - "Absence of war literature in India'. Lets continue there. BTW, I agree that Charge of the Light Brigade is not the right poem to think of when talking about 13 Kumaon's last stand. And I also read Horatious defending the bridge in my childhood.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby JCage » 20 Nov 2002 01:24

Originally posted by Subra:
Nice to see the link. Rakesh the References seem to have gone AWOL. I will resend the reference list later.

One note- I wrote this article more with respect to what might have been if our politicians and military brass had no lost their collective nerve. I think that is the part we need to emphasize and discuss. The bravery aspect is no different than the Battles at Walong, Namka Chu etc. But here the Indian Army actually displayed a lot of skill and gave a glimmer of what might have been. With the additional divisions being moved from the West and the Air Force brought in and winter coming - the Chinese could have been beaten.
Subra,
Chinese (revisionist perhaps)literature,in asense,tacitly admits that the Chinese effort was to give a bloody nose and then withdraw before the defenders reorganised and fought back(and won back honour etc.).Also the threat of counterattack on logistics tail by an IAF (if unleashed) was factored in by them.
So you are on the dot,that Rezang La might have been the turn of the tide,if the Chinese had pursued the battle ....

Regards,
Nitin

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Joeqp » 20 Nov 2002 06:45

One of the articles mentioned that Gen Thimayya went to Rezang La to collect the bodies of the fallen heroes, and had a movie camera with him. It would be <B>awesome</B> if someone in MoD can dig up the footage.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby daulat » 20 Nov 2002 16:58

on an ongoing theme of chinese justifications for himalayan conquests - there is a push at the moment by china to rename Mt Everest as Qomolinga - to not offend the sensibilities of the tibetian people by cruel imperialist oppressors of the proletariat. which is quite amusing!

underlying it is a need to recognise the Ming dynasty's claim to tibet and hence china's ongoing occupation

subtle!

lets push for the nepali name - sagarmatha as the best alternative to everest

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby dsandhu » 20 Nov 2002 23:20

Nice to see the BR Battles section and LNS getting some recko. Congrats!. It been a one man team for this section.

The 13 Kumaon article has raised some valid points. Its time the Indian Media start writing more about these battles. Also forgotten is the stand of 4 Garhwal Rifles in NEFA in 1962. They were the only battalion to win a battle honour in the NEFA sector in 1962 along with 2 MVC's and a number of VrC's.

Amarinder Singh's Lest we Forget in the chapter on 13 Kumaon as some photographs of the battle field after the chinese withdrew

Putting Custer in the some line as 13 Kumanon is bad taste as Custer was a native Indian killer.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Raman » 21 Nov 2002 01:06

Originally posted by dsandhu:
Putting Custer in the some line as 13 Kumanon is bad taste as Custer was a native Indian killer.
In addition, Custer was an idiot.

http://www.history-magazine.com/bighorn.html
Custer paid little heed to General Terry’s instructions and soon after departing up the Rosebud, headed directly for the valley of the Little Big Horn making forced marches late into the night and starting again before dawn. With his Seventh Cavalry troopers trail-weary and his horses exhausted, Custer reached the valley early in the afternoon of 25 June and made plans to attack the Indians immediately. Custer’s Indian scouts warned him that Sitting Bull’s camp was too large for him to take on with his small troop but Custer thought that his Seventh Cavalry could whip any Indian war party.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby daulat » 21 Nov 2002 14:55

[Custer was an idiot]

yes but, he was also an experienced soldier and apart from the civil war had also participated in many 'indian wars' - including previous raids into camps where many natives were slaughtered - so probably felt fairly confident. what he probably hadn't figured out was that crazy horse was ready for the fight (even if sitting bull was trying to avoid a conflict)

some of this same complacent mentality was probably present in the Indian leadership regarding China (surely our great shining army can whip those ragged barbarians?)

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Kakkaji » 24 Nov 2002 01:20


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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Prateek » 25 Nov 2002 04:26

I find great details here with OFFICIAL documents included. Look for the Official pdf docs on teh right side of the link.

Could India have won the 1962 WAR ?

http://www.indiatimes.com/1962/main.htm

1962 WAR Pics...
http://www.indiatimes.com/gallery/china0.htm

Indian generals lacked experience
http://www.indiatimes.com/1962/inside2.htm

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Nov 2002 05:41


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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Guest » 25 Nov 2002 11:00

That pic of 13 Kumaon memorial is what I was looking for.
http://samariaf0.tripod.com/memorial.html
Pls send me pics of memorials you find on the net or elsewhere. Thanks.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Jagan » 25 Nov 2002 11:25

Wow! The Official History of the 62 War! Wonderful discovery - and beautiful pictures in the Times of India collection.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby dsandhu » 25 Nov 2002 23:15

Wow!
TOI has done it again. First the 1965 war then 1971 war and now the 1962 war history. Great Thanks Giving Gift.

Muddur thanks for the link.

Major Sita Ram Johri's two books one about the NEFA and the other about Ladakh sector has been quoted a lot in the references. Has any one read these books? Any info about these? Thanks!

Can we expect TOI to put up the IPKF history next? :cool:

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby ramana » 26 Nov 2002 05:22

Very moving account. Please read the files Main and Chapter 10. The last is a summary of lessons learned. Looks like IA instead of being vindictive turned the corner by making use of the war vetran's experiences. Also shed a tear for the numerous gallantry award winners who lost their lives. This history makes one want more that which was not penned down.
dsandhu I would like to read the excised portions of KRC report.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Guest » 26 Nov 2002 12:38

"A nation that does not honour its dead warriors will perish"

http://samariaf0.tripod.com/other847.html
http://samariaf0.tripod.com/memorial3.html

Memorial Jaswant Garh(Bomdila) built for Rifleman Jaswant Singh Rawat MVC. Jai Jawan!

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby JCage » 26 Nov 2002 13:07

Wow indeed!

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby ramana » 27 Nov 2002 00:01

Trying to find articles for the proposed 'Best of BRM' I chanced upon the obituary of Lt. Gen Sagat Singh ( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-3/jagan.html). If you read Main.pdf last page, you find that he was the GOC 17 Div who blasted the Chinese at Nathu La in SEPTEMBER 1967 and gave them a drubbing which kept them occupied till SumDrongChu.

Jagan maybe we should update the BRM Obit to include the Nathu La episode?

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Jagan » 27 Nov 2002 00:06

Originally posted by ramana:
Trying to find articles for the proposed 'Best of BRM' I chanced upon the obituary of Lt. Gen Sagat Singh ( http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-3/jagan.html). If you read Chapter 10 you find that he was the general who blasted the Chinese at Nathu La in 1967 and gave them a drubbing which kept them occupied till SumDrongChu.

Jagan maybe we should update the BRM Obit to include the Nathu La episode?
Ramana,

yes, I think an update of that page should be carried out to include info on that episode if Sagat Singh was involved. I had no idea about that at all as I have not yet gone thru chapter 10 yet. Thanks for the heads up.

regards

Jagan

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby ramana » 27 Nov 2002 00:09

Jagan sorry for wrong ref. It is in Main.pdf, last page. He was GOC 17 Div.

While still on the war history. Does any one have copy of Weapons of Peace? I would like to know the full name of the IAF officer Narayanan who is Kalam's POC at DRDL Hyderabad. Thanks.

---------------
The War History points out that the Indo-Chinese war had major impact on the Communists in both international and national level. At the former the SU and China split and at internal level the CPi and CPI(M) broke apart. This had major impact on national politics as CPI was second largest opposition group. And we know what the split ment in international level. China siding with the US and so on and so forth.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Joeqp » 27 Nov 2002 08:17

Originally posted by ramana:
If you read Main.pdf last page, you find that he was the GOC 17 Div who blasted the Chinese at Nathu La in SEPTEMBER 1967 and gave them a drubbing which kept them occupied till SumDrongChu.


Rumor has it that IG was very upset at Gen Singh's actions, and this is why he never made it to COAS. The politicians don't like people like these running the show.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Mohan Raju » 27 Nov 2002 10:31

Originally posted by Ramana:

Does any one have copy of Weapons of Peace? I would like to know the full name of the IAF officer Narayanan who is Kalam's POC at DRDL Hyderabad. Thanks.
R:

I believe you mean Group Captain V.S.Narayanan. I have my copy of WoP right here in my hot little hands, and this is the only Narayanan I can find in the index (apart from President KR Narayanan, of course).

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby ramana » 27 Nov 2002 22:22

Thanks Mohan. The reason I asked is there is a K.L. Narayanan who was awarded the Vir Chakra in 1962 for Ladakh ops and I wondered if he went technical later on.
--------------
Also Manavendra Sagat Singh would have been a Maj. Gen. in 1967 and later he went on to become Lt Gen. Maj Gen Sukhwinder Singh in his trilogy says that Bewoor became next in COAS after Manekshaw due to his seniority.

Some where there is an IDR archive on the net. In it there is an article on 'Helicopter operations of the Indian Army' by Bhasyam Kasturi. In it Lt Gen. Sagat Singh launched a heliborne raid on East Pakistan way before the hostilities ever came about, in 1968(?) - part of Naga CI ops. He later applied the lessons learned during 1971 to good use. Its good to let rumors be just that.
---------------------
Here.
Link: The Indian experience in the use of military helicopters

---------------
"). In 1967, the Home Minister of the MNF was captured near Dariung. Similarly, Sainghakha, the Defence Minister of the MNF was captured in another HBO. The same year Lieutenant General Sagat Singh as GOC 101 Comm Zone area launched an SHBO into Bangladesh to hit Mizo training camps located there. This mission was however unsuccessful. 3"

and
"On 9 December, the Meghna waterline was secured around Ashugung. Lieutenant General Sagat Singh now decided to make a dash towards Dhaka. Shortly after last light on 10 December, Mi-4s began their journey across the Meghna. In the next 36 hours, over 110 sorties were flown. The Mi-4, which normally carried fourteen troops, now had twenty-three men on board. 311 Mtn Bde was amongst the first units across the river, landing at Narsingdi. 4 Guards with a detachment of artillery was flown to Narsingdi on 9 December. Two days later, 10 Bihar was lifted to the area. The battalion secured the road and rail links over the local Brahmaputra the same day. The next day 4 Guards were in control of Narsingdi. The area thus became a base for further operations against Dhaka by this date . 5 The next hop for the helicopters was to Daudkandi. From here brigade HQ and two battalions moved to Baidha Bazaar on 14/1 5 December, without supporting arms and artillery. 6"

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Leonard » 28 Nov 2002 05:55

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/nov/27chin.htm

The Rediff Special/Wing Commander (retd) R V Parasnis

Looking back on our humiliation at the hands of the Chinese 40 years ago, my eyes go moist, the throat goes dry and a heavy, insane rage begins to build within me against those who caused it.

Many officers and men I looked up to, respected, and felt deep affection for perished in this war. Worse, the national humiliation suffered has left deep scars, which open up even today whenever the bitter memories return.

It saddens me, however, to notice the general lack of knowledge among the public, the distorted facts being presented by eminent writers and experts, and the misinformation/disinformation campaigns still being carried out by vested interests on this subject.

To begin with, there is a generally held view that in the 1962 India-China War, India's military was vanquished by the People's Liberation Army. It is not true. The nation was convulsed by fear, yes, because our top political leadership panicked, but our army was far from vanquished. Our deployed force level in 1962 against China was as follows:

The command centre was at the newly created HQ (headquarters) IV Corps (one corps consists of a minimum of three divisions + supporting forces + reserves) in Tezpur under Lieutenant General B M Kaul. The IV Corps had a force little less than four infantry brigades (most of them hastily collected and not in their complete form) deployed in the North-East Frontier Agency, ie just about one division looking after over 400km (30,000 square km in area) of frontier starting from Bhutan through Kameng, Subansiri, Siang and Lohit to Tirap division, which finally connects to the Burmese border and Nagaland in the absolute northeastern corner of our country.
A little more than one brigade force guarded our border against the Chinese in Ladakh, where our forces were scattered even more, and practically all the posts were in isolation of that inhospitable terrain. Thus, only 24,000 troops out of a total of the 4,00,000-strong Indian army of those days fought the Chinese in 1962. That amounts to less than 1/16th of our army's strength at that time.

Hence, even though our troops suffered a defeat, it can't be said that our army was vanquished. For that matter the entire army in the Northeast didn't suffer defeat either.
The Eastern Army HQ was at Lucknow and IV Corps, which suffered the defeat, was only one of its elements, and a weak one at that (hardly one division strong at that time). We couldn't have moved our forces from the Pakistan borders without endangering our defences there, while another division was locked against the Naga insurgency, which was also quite serious those days.

Besides, China didn't figure in the government's defence planning for the country. As per its written directive to the army, the latter's task was defence against Pakistan. In fact, the government had rebuffed the army every time this aspect was brought up for discussion.

Thus, we had no roads to take the army, its equipment, heavy guns, and supplies up to the border. There was no way we could have positioned and maintained a large army at the border in a short time.

Frankly, the 1962 war can't even be called a war in the real sense of the word, though everyone refers to it as such. It was at the most three or four battles in which we suffered a defeat in the Northeast.

A war is generally a long-drawn affair and demands almost the entire resources of a nation and commitment of most of its forces and goes far beyond a few battles. Our political leadership combined with a few inept/pliant generals of those days forced our army to conduct insane battles at ultra-high altitudes without acclimatising to the rarefied atmosphere and sub-zero temperatures. On difficult terrain, in tactically disadvantageous battle positions, without reserves for reinforcements, under conditions such as non-existent supply lines (troops were required to be entirely air-maintained in terrain unsuitable for air-dropping), without suitable/matching arms, criminally insufficient ammunition (only 50 rounds of .303 bullets per jawan in NEFA), insufficient food and clothing.

After the initial defeat at the positions around Dhola and along the Namkachu river at the base of the Thagla ridge, a few of our officers and troops were admittedly overwhelmed by panic and fear, floating rumours galore about the strength and ultra-superior weaponry of the Chinese and their dreaded "human wave" tactics, though many more were itching to have a go.

What we needed at this juncture was firm and cool leadership, but to our bad luck we were denied that, as I shall explain later. We lost Se La and Bomdi La without a fight in spite of well-prepared positions and sufficient ammunition as well as reasonable, if not strong, artillery support.

The Chinese, to their surprise, found the going very easy and reached the foothills of Assam within a couple of days. At this stage our cowardly leadership (both political and military) denied our forces a God-given chance to redeem their honour. We could have, entirely on our own, turned the tide at the Assam foothills, where the temperatures were tolerable, and used our air force to literally massacre the Chinese.

The Chinese knew well what our forces could have done after recovering from the initial shock, and that is why they withdrew, returning all the land they had conquered (including Tawang) irrespective of their much publicised claims praised as just and fair by authors like Neville Maxwell, Dr Gregory Clark, the Communists, et al.

Cleverly and hurriedly, the Chinese returned without giving us a chance to collect our wits and hit back, before the possible and likely foreign help, mainly from the US and its anti-communist allies, arrived and, of course, before the snowbound passes closed.

The logistical lines of the Chinese were stretched beyond limits and they couldn't have sustained warfare for long so far away from their homeland. They had practically no air force and only one or two usable airfields in Tibet at that time and were not prepared for the technical problems of operating aircraft at those heights and temperatures.

The Chinese hardly had any anti-aircraft guns. Their aircraft were inferior to ours. It was their weakest point, but we did not take advantage of it.

That a major Chinese invasion of India was afoot with nothing to stop them from knocking on the gates of Calcutta, where the highest concentration of ethnic Chinese lived in India, was the consequence of the entirely idiotic imagination of an absolutely gutless people, totally dominated by panic, without any military thought applied.

There was also talk among the civilians that once the Chinese tanks arrived at Tezpur, they only had to take off the brakes to use the gentle slope of the land to reach right down to Calcutta with the engines switched off. I am afraid I have seen no such slope in the landscape. That apart, how could the Chinese could have got their tanks across the Himalayas without the road network and through terrain unsuitable for armour movement crossing 16000 foot-high snowbound passes?

But despite this, even some of the military brass succumbed to this defeatist viewpoint. The disorderly military withdrawal from Se La and Bomdi La followed by panic evacuation of Tezpur after the civil administration top boss bolted to Calcutta, deserting the place of duty and the men under his charge, was nothing short of a disgrace.

Was it the age-old Hindu cowardice, a habit of leaving the battlefield and running in disarray when the king/general was killed in battle, coming into play yet again in a slightly different form? Maybe.

Nehru's broadcast to the nation, "My heart goes out to the people of Assam. I don't know what is in store for them," may have endeared him to the people of the state and given the Congress another win in the next election there, but at that time it caused an irrational panic reaction in and the evacuation of Tezpur.

Why Nehru's heart never went out to the poor jawans whom he ordered into suicidal battles is beyond comprehension.

Had we fought the Chinese at the foothills of Assam, we could have enforced a crushing defeat on the People's Liberation Army. Our army could have fought them on somewhat equal footing here, where high altitude problems are non-existent and temperatures are tolerable. Though the Chinese had the upper hand in their small arms, we could have brought our heavy weapon superiority into effect.

We could have used our superior armour against the Chinese infantry, which only had limited recoilless guns. Our infantry was well poised in the foothills of Assam to use the hook tactics, which the Chinese had used with telling effect in the higher reaches. While our troops were strangers to the high altitude terrain in the Thagla ridge area, here they were somewhat on home ground and the Chinese would have found themselves in foreign surroundings. It would have been easier for us to regroup for flexibility in tactics here, while for the Chinese it would have been impossible under pressure of our attacks from all unexpected directions.

We could have prevented and/or countered their every move, especially with the benefit of constant air surveillance, an advantage they lacked. Similarly, getting reinforcements would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them on account of the distances, lack of road network, the approaching winter with the consequent closing of the snowbound passes, and, above all, our marauding knights of the skies causing havoc from above.

Had they not decided to withdraw, we could have caused them to suffer unacceptable casualties. Their retreat would have been uphill and we could have literally played hell into them in pursuit, especially with the IAF raining fire from the skies. We could have blown their supply lines in Tibet to smithereens as the Tibetan plateau hardly provides any cover or natural camouflage.

In fact, eyewitnesses of those days recall seeing heaps of military stores, mortars, ammunition, and other supplies lying by the roadside all along in depot-like stores in the open near the border on the Tibetan side. These would have been ready fodder for our Hunters, Mysteres, Gnats, Vampires and Toofanis for strafing runs with front gun cannons and rockets. Major enemy concentrations would have proved excellent targets for carpet-bombing by our Liberators. Our Canberras were ultra-modern bombers then and could have caused havoc.

But that was not to be. Future generations will only read about the 'crushing defeat' of the Indian Army at the hands of the Chinese forces.

The 1962 India-China conflict was, in all probability, avoidable. It came about because of many a factor. The internal factors were our lack of understanding of the concept of sovereignty, made worse by political bungling, diplomatic blunders, personal arrogance of our top leader and his short-sightedness, intelligence failure, incorrect information dissemination by the government to Parliament and the media leading to the thoughtlessly jingoistic reaction by all concerned and the demand: 'not even an inch to the enemy'.

For the ignominious defeat that we suffered, we have to add 'politicisation of the army resulting in cowardly as well as stupid generalship' to the above factors.

Extraneous factors such as China's vital national interest to guard their strategic road through Aksai Chin, China's wish to be recognized and respected as the greatest Asian power, and therefore her desire to cut India down to size, as also to punish India so as to teach Nehru a lesson and puncture his balloon, played their part.

Yet careful analysis of the situation indicates that it was possible to have come to a mutually satisfactory understanding with China on the border adjustments, avoided active hostilities, and continued our then blossoming friendship with Beijing, which had tremendous potential for mutual benefit. That would have also discouraged the Pakistan-China friendship, which developed as an offshoot of the Sino-Indian conflict, and the eventual nuclearisation of Pakistan.

Wing Commander R V Parasnis is probably the only air force pilot to have flown extensively as well as moved on foot in the NEFA area. He particularly remembers an exercise where he marched for 24 days in the Bomdila region on a man-pack basis with General (then brigadier) K Sundarji, whose unforgettable briefings and brilliant strategic theories at night revived the bitter memories of the 1962 war among the young officers, even as ice-cold winds threatened to blow their small tents away.

Part II: How Nehru let us down

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby kanareseking » 30 Nov 2002 08:53

Leonard's posting sums up the pathetic situation that our 'babus' led the Indian army into. The 1962 war can in no way be regarded as a military contest/verdict b/w India and china. Though the war dragged on for a month, the actual fighting was restricted to only about 10 days. There was no large scale use of heavy artillery and armor by the Indians. Also as is well known the airforce played no part in the entire conflict except for dropping of supplies. But for the failure of morale at Sela the Indian army would have ended the war on a much better note. As a matter of fact Harbaksh singh was confident of holding onto sela despite the enveloping and bypassing tactics of the chinese.(before kaul came back and messed up the whole affair). History bears ample evidence of such heroic stands. The soviet defenders of the fortress of brest in WWII is a classic example. And what were our jawans to fight with? Cotton shirts and canvas shoes at altitutes of 15000+ feet! The biggest mystery that I find incomprehensible is the lack of foresight that Pt Nehru, B N Mullick and the top brass exhibited with regard to chinese intentions. Ample evidence of aggression and land-grabbing was provided by the chinese leadership starting 1949. Their interference and performance in the korean war was a case in point. When the UN forces drove back the North Korean invasion army back to the Yalu river (the sino-korean border) the chinese mounted a massive attack all along the front. The result was much the same as happened at NEFA in 1962. The UN forces (mainly US) were taken by surprise and thrown back beyond the 38th parallel. The important lesson for us was that this was achieved despite heavy preponderence in heavy artillery and air power on the American side. The chinese suffered heavy casualties but more or less achieved their strategic aims. The hard and uncompromising attitute of the communists was very apparent throughout. The way the tibetan revolt was suppressed in 1959 was further proof of their belligerence. Yet our politicians and planners chose to ignore the potential of the PLA and were totally unprepared when the chinese hammer struck. Even today China has India strategically encircled (Pakistan,Myanmar etc). India too should cultivate close military ties with Taiwan, Vietnam, Russia and form a broad front to counter the chinese threat.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Shankar » 01 Dec 2002 12:32

Leonard -agree with your assesment fully
It was not the army who lost -it was the political leadership who lost the will to fight.The military leadership was inept and airforce kept at distance.This is what happens when the top leaders of the country lack strategic understanding in military understanding but still have the power to control it.We never used our strategic depth ,never used our heavy weapons ,our air power,shorter logistics chain
and mechanised formations .Patton would have commited suicide,Nimitz would have gone mad and MIDWAY would never have occured if they had such leaders to deal with

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby john chen » 02 Dec 2002 00:52

I am a chinese.
Do you indians want to resolve the border conflict with china on the ground of justice? or you just want to beat china and occupy the land according to your will even if the land did not belong to you at all? If your answer is the latter, I have nothing to talk with you. But I want to remind you indians that china is not a country that can be bullied forever. The war between us will never end. Never! The present china is an authoritative country, but not in the future. China will no weaker than india in the future.

If your answer is the first one, that is great! Let us find out what was the truth about the disputed land. After we know the truth, we will be able to find the just way to resolve the conflict if we want justice. Please remember that china has resolved land border disputes with 9 nehibourhoods by complete peaceful talks and agreements in the past 50 years. (How many india did?)

Unfortunately, most indians in this forum have no interest in truth, facts and justice at all. They just want to beat china. They blame china as the aggrassor without hard evidence or with ounly one side evidence. Most media in india is not just at this dispute at all, except for a few of them which may not have big influence.

Please see these websites:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/25spec.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/23chin.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/CJB.htm
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/1962war.htm

As far as I know, china's claim on these lands is better supported by the evidence and facts than india's. Is anyone can provide more hard evidences to prove that Aksai chin and the land north of tawang should belong to india? If so, you are welcome to paste them here or send me an email. Exchanging views and facts helps to better understand the conflict and pave the way to peace.

We chinese will agree to cede the lands to you if you can show harder evidence than ours. We are a peace and justice loving nation. We want talk instead of war.

By the way, is anybody has evidence to prove Aksai Chin is a part of Ladakh before the 1840 kashmir/tibet agreement? Any body has hard evidence to prove the area north of tawang's latitude belong to assam instead of Tibet before 1870 or other time in 19th centruy? Thanks!

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Vivek K » 02 Dec 2002 01:28

Originally posted by john chen:
I am a chinese.
Welcome, John!

Do you indians want to resolve the border conflict with china on the ground of justice? or you just want to beat china and occupy the land according to your will even if the land did not belong to you at all? If your answer is the latter, I have nothing to talk with you. But I want to remind you indians that china is not a country that can be bullied forever. The war between us will never end. Never! The present china is an authoritative country, but not in the future. China will no weaker than india in the future.

Now that is a strange way to make friendship!

If your answer is the first one, that is great! Let us find out what was the truth about the disputed land. After we know the truth, we will be able to find the just way to resolve the conflict if we want justice. Please remember that china has resolved land border disputes with 9 nehibourhoods by complete peaceful talks and agreements in the past 50 years. (How many india did?)

Unfortunately China has been unable to resolve its dispute with Taiwan too! Just like India has been unable to solve its disputes with Pakistan. John, if China was able to solve its territorial disputes with 9 others then what stops it from solving it with India? Or are you of the opinion that the fault is totally India's and therefore there is no solution? If that is your mindset, then you should try to change your viewpoint somewhat. I am willing to accept that the fault (that the situation is unresolved) lies with both parties. If you accept that too then that would be a first step.

We chinese will agree to cede the lands to you if you can show harder evidence than ours. We are a peace and justice loving nation. We want talk instead of war.

Well, we believe in peaceful co-existence too. If you will change some of your rhetoric we will change most of ours too. We do not respond well to intimidation and therefore brow-beating does not work with us the same as it probably does not work with you too.

By the way, is anybody has evidence to prove Aksai Chin is a part of Ladakh before the 1840 kashmir/tibet agreement? Any body has hard evidence to prove the area north of tawang's latitude belong to assam instead of Tibet before 1870 or other time in 19th centruy? Thanks!

Now from that I understand that you are unsure of your facts and need someone here to help you out. I am sure they will. I think that Indians are unsure of the Chinese owing to China's support to Pakistan in their fight with us. If China was to adopt a truly neutral stance vis-a-vis Kashmir & Pak, Indians would be closer to China.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Kakkaji » 02 Dec 2002 02:55

Originally posted by john chen:
I am a chinese.
As far as I know, china's claim on these lands is better supported by the evidence and facts than india's. Is anyone can provide more hard evidences to prove that Aksai chin and the land north of tawang should belong to india? If so, you are welcome to paste them here or send me an email. Exchanging views and facts helps to better understand the conflict and pave the way to peace.
Welcome John!

First of all, can you enlighten us on what the claim of China is on Tibet?

Once you vacate your forcible occupation of Tibet, and allow Tibet to be independent again, there will be no boundary dispute between China and India. You see, China does not have a border with India, Tibet does.

Regards

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby john chen » 02 Dec 2002 03:34

Unfortunately china has been unable to resolve its dispute with Taiwan too! Just like India has been unable to solve its disputes with Pakistan.

I don't feel this is an appropriate comparison. India and all other countries recognize Pakistan as an independent country. India's confilct with Pakistan is a conflict between independent countries. Most countries (including India and China)in the world and UN do not recognize Taiwan as an independent country. China and India's conflict is a problem between countries not within a country.

I think that indians are unsure of the chinese owing to china's support to pakistan in their fight with us. If china was to adopt a truly neutral stance vis-a-vis Kashmir & Pak, indians would be closer to china.

China's support to Pakistan occured after India/China war and India/Pakistan war. It is a result of 1962 war and India/China conflict, not the reason. Facing a big and strong India, China and Pakistan have to unite together to defend themselves. China's support to Pakistan does not block to reach agreement between China and India. If China and India reaches agreement, China can decrease her support to Pakistan although we still do not want to see Pakistan be occupied by India.

China does not support Pakistan to take the indian occupied kashmir. China never said kashmir should belong to Pakistan. China just want to help pakistan to survive. Many people in india want to occupy the whole pakistan. Furthermore, Pakistan's military power is much weaker than india's. Her military power can not threaten India's national security at all.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Shalav » 02 Dec 2002 03:40

Originally posted by RajeevT:
First of all, can you enlighten us on what the claim of China is on Tibet?
My history is not so good, but it is my belief that the chinese claim on tibet is revenge!!! Racial/cultural history shows the tibetians BEFORE they converted to buddhism were warlike and beat the cra@p out of china when they were warlike BEFORE Buddhism.The Buddha changed all that, just like it changed history in India.

It is my belief that had Buddhism not happened to the tibetians would have been the rulers of the middle kingdom now!!! The challenger to the American "hegemony" today would be sitting in Lhasa rather than beijing today.

The chinese and Indians are not friends, and will never be friends. There can be only ONE claimant to the oldest CULTURE in the WORLD. All of chinas wars and their diplomatic behaviour since 1948 has always been on the premise that they are the oldest culture! They have been done in by coloninism as much as us, maybe more, but they genuaiely believethay are RULERS as much as we do. Their Maoist confunanism has made them more practical, OTOH NEHRU with his "ashokanism" made us soft!!!

Why do we have to be "apologetic" about being HARD!? Nehruism gave us the Wagah "candle-wallahs" and the the "sugar"* wannabes in India.

SO do let us know the historical imperitive of China ruling Tibet?!

----
*sugar=chini=std. hindi for chinese.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby john chen » 02 Dec 2002 03:53

First of all, can you enlighten us on what the claim of China is on Tibet?

Once you vacate your forcible occupation of Tibet, and allow Tibet to be independent again, there will be no boundary dispute between China and India. You see, China does not have a border with India, Tibet does.
Hello RajeevT,
I am very glad to answer your question. I think this a a question of many indian.

First of all, there are two tibet. Central tibet (or central tibet) and eastern tibet. Eastern tibet was annexed into chinese provinces in 1726 according to chinese emperor's order. A boundary was setup and recognized by chinese provincal and west tibet's local government together. Easthern tibet was under china control and occupation from 1726 continuously to now. It is definiately a part of china. Eastern tibet kept religious relation with west tibet, but not politically.

West's tibet problem is much more complex. I will talk about it a little bit later

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby john chen » 02 Dec 2002 04:07

My history is not so good, but it is my belief that the chinese claim on tibet is revenge!!!
Dear Mr. Shalav,
With a basic scientific way of thinking, I will never believe without proof. You suppose china is evil and take it as truth without prove it. I hope most indians are not like you.

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Shalav » 02 Dec 2002 04:10

Originally posted by john chen:
Dear Mr. Shalav,
With a basic scientific way of thinking, I will never believe without proof. You suppose china is evil and take it as truth without prove it. I hope most indians are not like you.
Dear Mr. Chen;

Science has nothing to do with it; and you'd BETTER hope MOST Indians are not like me!

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Re: Remembering a War: The 1962 Indo-China War

Postby Shalav » 02 Dec 2002 04:25

Mr. Chen;

China today APES western culture. you guys CHANGE your names to John; Paul; Andy etc...

Statistically speaking there are more INDIAN chinese with names like Hua Yu and Hua Chi RATHER than with names like John Yu and Mary Chi; unlike the chinese diaspora abroad. In your quest for assimilation you people have sold your basic names out- ie: YOUR OWN CULTURE and HISTORY!

When we INDIANS go out into the World we are still named INDIAN names - SO GUESS WHOSE CULTURE WILL SURVIVE?!


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