India's Generals who made an Impact

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Bishwa » 11 Jun 2003 23:15

Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh was GOC MP, Bihar, Orissa Area from Jabalpur.
He was also GOC UP Area. He was dismissed or asked to go after a CBI enquiry
on corruption charges in 76 IIRC.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Jagan » 11 Jun 2003 23:31

Originally posted by bishwa:
Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh was GOC MP, Bihar, Orissa Area from Jabalpur.
He was also GOC UP Area. He was dismissed or asked to go after a CBI enquiry
on corruption charges in 76 IIRC.
Hmm.. Google search came up with several sikh sites that has Shabeg Singh's biography. It appears that his dismissal was a grudge fight among the top brass and has nothing to do with khalistan. Pretty explosive stuff that blamed then Army chief TN Raina.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 11 Jun 2003 23:32

Here is what JS grewal says in his book

Gen Shabeg Singh was both AVSM and PVSM.

After the Indo-Pak war, all the Pakistani POWs were under his jurisdiction and senior General Staff were kept at Jabalpur which was also the HQs of MP.Bihar and Orissa area. Due to jealousy of certain senior army officers , he was not given the command of a Division. Here was a field commander with so much war experience-denied command of a combat formation. Why so? Only to do deny him promotion when his name came up. While he was posted as GOC of the UP Area HQs in whose jurisdiction the Kumaon Regimental Center is placed, it was found that the commander of the Kumaon Military Farm had given a large sum money to the Chief, Gen Raina, who was himself from the same regiment. A court of inquiry discovered that General Raina, Army received over two hundred thousand rupees from the Kumaon farm to meet expenses for his daughter's marriage. When this information was brought to the notice of the General Office Commanding, Shabeg Singh; he told Gen Raina about the findings of the Court of Inquiry and requested the chief to return the amount as the Military farm of the Kumaon Regt was already running a loss. The result was that Gen Shabeg was promptly posted out of the this indiscretion and the inquiry hushed up.

The forthwith posting was an unprecedented action because peacetime postings are never conducted on such emergency basis. Soon after that the Army instituted a court of inquiry against Gen Shabeg Singh which dragged on for one year till the date of his retirement on May, 1 1976. The main charge against the General had accepted a plaque costing Rs 2500 as a gift on his positing out of Jabalpur area HQs

-Even though a similar present had been predecessor and it is common for senior officers to accept such gifts. However, in the case of Gen Shabeg it became an offense. Some other flimsy charges were also made like allowing his official house land to be used for cultivation purposes and permitting sale of goods purchased from customs in the area HQs Canteen. These practices had been in vogue even before Gen had taken command of the area in 1972. The vindictiveness of Indian Government and the Army Chief was made obvious, when one day prior of Gen Shabeg's retirement, on April 30, 1976 the hero of Mukti Bahini, a highly decorated general with PVSM & AVSM, who had been actively involved in every operation that Indian Army fought since his joining service and who spent the major portion of his life in field areas separated from the cost of his wife's health and the education of his children was dismissed from the Army. Such was the treatment meted out to a brave soldier and an outstanding General, a leader of men, whom the Indian government and some senior Army officers in 1984 after Operation Blue Star dubbed as 'disgruntled' and frustrated because he was loyal to his community and fought for its honor and to protect the Golden Temple against the Army attack.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Jagan » 11 Jun 2003 23:51

sandeep

Who is JS Grewal and which book is this?

Jagan

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 12 Jun 2003 00:08

JS grewal is a contemporary Sikh Writer and has written several books while these excerpts were taken from a publication called "Nishan". JS grewal lives in Chandigarh.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby advitya » 12 Jun 2003 00:21

Shabeg Singh had also been reprimanded by J.S.Arora in Bangladesh after irregularities in the use of Army transportation for personal business ventures. Mandeep should be able to shed more light on this.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby daulat » 12 Jun 2003 03:02

Originally posted by bishwa:
Generals dont lead armies into battle like that any more.

gee really?! :)

what i was after was the flamboyant characters who displayed elan (appropriate to their era) who inspired esprit de corps in their men, who stood out as someone willing to truly lead. not just the good staff officers and book generals or even the hum drum getting on with their jobs types. Who in the senior command displayed leadership that their peers and subordinates thought was exemplary?

or in other words - what did this man have that would make a bunch of battle hardened curaisseurs of the world's most powerful military force (of that time) follow him despite being so inappropriately equipped for his role in the face of direct fire from the enemy? what is that quality? who has/had it in the IA?

the other great napoleonic example i love (if thats the right word) is the general who reprimanded his son at the battle of borodino when he flinched under russian cannon fire - 'an officer of the grande armee does not bow his head in the face of mere artillery!!' or words to that effect. needless to say that the next salvo took his son's head off, but thats another matter

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby debjani » 12 Jun 2003 07:12

Rajinder Singh was the Signal Officer of the Armoured Regt. Signal Officers are called 'Sparrow' in Radio Telephony. Hence he got this name.

In 71, all Generals distinguished themselves since it was a free run. Even the General who organised the Battle of Hilli!

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby ASPuar » 12 Jun 2003 14:16

Hilli... that sounds sort of familiar... was the garwhal rifles involved with it?

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Paul » 12 Jun 2003 16:06

Here is what JS grewal says in his book

Gen Shabeg Singh was both AVSM and PVSM.

After the Indo-Pak war, all the Pakistani POWs were under his jurisdiction and senior General Staff were kept at Jabalpur which was also the HQs of MP.Bihar and Orissa area. Due to jealousy of certain senior army officers , he was not given the command of a Division. Here was a field commander with so much war experience-denied command of a combat formation. Why so? Only to do deny him promotion when his name came up. While he was posted as GOC of the UP Area HQs in whose jurisdiction the Kumaon Regimental Center is placed, it was found that the commander of the Kumaon Military Farm had given a large sum money to the Chief, Gen Raina, who was himself from the same regiment. A court of inquiry discovered that General Raina, Army received over two hundred thousand rupees from the Kumaon farm to meet expenses for his daughter's marriage. When this information was brought to the notice of the General Office Commanding, Shabeg Singh; he told Gen Raina about the findings of the Court of Inquiry and requested the chief to return the amount as the Military farm of the Kumaon Regt was already running a loss. The result was that Gen Shabeg was promptly posted out of the this indiscretion and the inquiry hushed up.

The forthwith posting was an unprecedented action because peacetime postings are never conducted on such emergency basis. Soon after that the Army instituted a court of inquiry against Gen Shabeg Singh which dragged on for one year till the date of his retirement on May, 1 1976. The main charge against the General had accepted a plaque costing Rs 2500 as a gift on his positing out of Jabalpur area HQs

-Even though a similar present had been predecessor and it is common for senior officers to accept such gifts. However, in the case of Gen Shabeg it became an offense. Some other flimsy charges were also made like allowing his official house land to be used for cultivation purposes and permitting sale of goods purchased from customs in the area HQs Canteen. These practices had been in vogue even before Gen had taken command of the area in 1972. The vindictiveness of Indian Government and the Army Chief was made obvious, when one day prior of Gen Shabeg's retirement, on April 30, 1976 the hero of Mukti Bahini, a highly decorated general with PVSM & AVSM, who had been actively involved in every operation that Indian Army fought since his joining service and who spent the major portion of his life in field areas separated from the cost of his wife's health and the education of his children was dismissed from the Army. Such was the treatment meted out to a brave soldier and an outstanding General, a leader of men, whom the Indian government and some senior Army officers in 1984 after Operation Blue Star dubbed as 'disgruntled' and frustrated because he was loyal to his community and fought for its honor and to protect the Golden Temple against the Army attack.
I do not know about the incident mentioned above (it could be true because Raina may have been IG's favourite with him also being a kashmiri) but Shahbeg Singh reportedly exhibited separatist tendencies as early as 1971 during the war. Gen. Niazi mentioned this in his autobigraphy.

He said that Shahbeg Singh came to him after the surrender in Calcutta? with a map of undivided Punjab and said that Sikhs had lost out big time during partition and was quite upset about it.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 12 Jun 2003 18:40

I do not know about the incident mentioned above (it could be true because Raina may have been IG's favourite with him also being a kashmiri) but Shahbeg Singh reportedly exhibited separatist tendencies as early as 1971 during the war. Gen. Niazi mentioned this in his autobigraphy.
He said that Shahbeg Singh came to him after the surrender in Calcutta? with a map of undivided Punjab and said that Sikhs had lost out big time during partition and was quite upset about it.
General Shabeg Singh was direct descendant of Bhai Mehtab Singh. Bhai Mehtab Singh was a Sikh hero who entered Golden Temple when it was occupied by Mughals and killed the Mughal officer.

As well as divided punjab is concerned all sikhs are upset with Partition since it left out Nankana Sahib, Panja Sahib, Shaheedganj as well as
lots of places associated with Ranjit Singh, Hari Singh, Akali Phula Singh,etc. So does that mean that all these sikhs are "separatists". and Gen. Niazi who meekly surrendered is not the person to judge Shabeg Singh who faced the mighty Indian army without surrendering.

Here are some basic facts about Shabeg Singh.

1. General Shabeg Singh cut off his hair in 1971 and trained Mukti Bahini which was highly successful. (This act alone prooves his commitment to India) He willingly cut off his hair so that he could move around with mukti bahini guerillas while training them.

2. General Shabeg Singh was decorated for his efforts in 1971 war.

3. General Shabeg Singh ordered investigations into the money spent for the marriage.

4. General Shabeg Singh was cashiered out of army one day before his retirement because he accepted a RS 2500 worth gift item
from his junior officers.

5. General Shabeg Singh lived in Chandigarh and at around 1978-79 he became active in Akali politics.

6. General Shabeg Singh was fed up with Akalis and got himself aligned with Jarnail singh Bhindrenwale at Golden Temple.

7. Nobody in their wildest dreamed believed that Indian army will entered the Golden Temple but they still took precautions by fortifying it.
(Golden Temple has historically been fortified).

8. Indian army entered the Golden Temple on the martyrdom day of the Fifth Guru who created Golden Temple. This act itself enraged the Sikhs all over the world. Imagine Mahmood Ghaznavi attacking Somnath temple on Janamashtami? or attacking Ayodhya on Ramnavmi?

9. Golden Temple is created on the lowered ground so as to depict humility as oppose to Hindu/Muslim/Christian temples that are created on a platform thus it was much easier for defenders to fortify it.

10. For majority of sikhs General Shabeg Singh attained martyrdom at Golden Temple in the similar fashion as his ancestor Bhai Mehtab Singh and hundredsd of thousands others.

In my eyes General Shabeg Singh is a perfect soldier since he lived and died as a soldier with firm commitment to his ideals.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby debjani » 12 Jun 2003 18:44

Shahbeg is controversial water. So, lets leave him out. It is leading to rather unsavoury exchanges.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby AmanC » 12 Jun 2003 19:11

Originally posted by Ray:
Shahbeg is controversial water. So, lets leave him out. It is leading to rather unsavoury exchanges.
Ray,
I agree but cannot resist to put in some comments. Shahbeg was pushed towards the militancy due to his bitterness over his dismissal. We must remember that Niazi's book was written in the 90's, when much water had flown under the bluestar bridge. He could have invented things about Shahbeg.
My father was his Sparrow in an inf brigade in east. He recalls Shahbeg smoking cigars in the mess, openly, without a turban (he was a cut-surd those days). But the guy was daring, outspoken and much more.
As for Gen Aurora and misuse of military transport in Bangladesh, less said the better about who was actually guilty. Aurora is not keeping well these days, said Lt Gen JFR Jacob to me one day while he was Governor of Punjab. He told me a lot about Aurora on many occasions but always asked me to keep it off the record. For all of Aurora's fault, Jacob regarded him as a aecent man.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Bishwa » 12 Jun 2003 19:31

I dont think Shahbeg Singh should make the list for the following reasons

1. What he accomplished in 71 was as a Brigadier and assuming the same set of rules apply
for everyone then he should not make the list. eh Jagan ? :)
2. What he did in bluestar was after he left service. We are talking of serving officers here.
eh Jagan ? :)

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Jagan » 12 Jun 2003 20:10

Originally posted by bishwa:
I dont think Shahbeg Singh should make the list for the following reasons

1. What he accomplished in 71 was as a Brigadier and assuming the same set of rules apply
for everyone then he should not make the list. eh Jagan ? :)
2. What he did in bluestar was after he left service. We are talking of serving officers here.
eh Jagan ? :)
Yeah! righton.. he wouldn't make the list for either reason.

Also , i wouldn't wanna stress to much on Niazi's version anyway. If we believe it, he would have had been liberating 'Bangladesh' the reverse way if he was not let down by the generals in the west pakistan :lol:

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby debjani » 12 Jun 2003 21:25

Aman,

No General is perfect. Each General has his plus and minus. Each General thinks that the other guy was an ass. Thats professional rivalry. Further, it is always easy to criticise on hindsight or heap praises when none can confirm because facts have become hoary.

So, its best to leave things be. Lets look at the positive side of things.

Personally, I don't think Sikhs smoking to impress on secularism or liberal thoughts is a good thing. Either you are a Sikh or you are not. Of course, it doesnt mean you impose your religious belief on others. I had a Sikh CO who wouldn't allow smoking in the Mess. That was ridiculous. He drank lime cordial and pretended it was a drink, just to please the Commander who liked his drinks. Now, that was deceit! If you dont drink, you dont drink and damn anyone who feels otherwise.

Many feel Brig Surinder Singh is at fault for Kargil. I think otherwise. But then, will it change the fact or will it change the opinion people have? All it will do is create bad blood. That is why one should leave it be. Express an opinion and then leave it be. Raking up muck serves nobody's purpose. I am not saying anyone is doing so, but it will be unfortuante if it come to pass since BRF folks have very strong views.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mehta » 13 Jun 2003 11:15

Sandeep,

You mentioned about Sikhs been upset regarding Holy Shrines still in pakistan.

My point is why Sikhs alone.
We all Indians should be upset regarding that and that should be part of un-finished business with pakistan.

Regarding Lt.Gen.Shabeg Singh is concerned.
From what I have read he did a excellent job for our Motherland in 1971.

Regarding events in 1984.
Since early 80's onwards that was a dark period in India's (espeacially Punjab's ) history.

Hopefully it is behind us.
We can learn from history and not make the same mistakes again.

Mehta

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Amarko » 13 Jun 2003 14:59

For all those who want to read a fascinating and deeply moving account of the militancy and separatist movent in Punjab and how it has influenced the Sikh religion, I highly recommend the book Knights of Falsehood by KPS Gill.

The book is available online at:


E Book: Knights of Falsehood

Amarko.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Paul » 13 Jun 2003 18:08

Sandeep and others,

I share your sentiments regarding the loss of the Sikh holy sites after partition...and why only Sikh holy sites..even Hindus have lost the right to visit their holy temples in Multan and Sindh.

I hope some day these places will come back to India.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mandeep » 13 Jun 2003 20:19

I would enjoin my fellow Indians not to take my clansman, Sandeep, seriously. He tends to let his emotions get the better of his judgement.

Gen Shabeg Singh was a distinguished soldier with an unorthodox bent of mind who excelled in the role of a commander of irregular troops prior to and during the 1971 War.

Yes, there were allegations of irregularities (to say the least) levelled against him but they were never proved.

He was not tried by a GCM but dismissed from service through the use of Section 311 of the Constitution. The underlying reason for his dismissal had nothing to do with the Kumaon Farm case whatever it is. Actually he fell prey to narrow inter-regimental jealousies. Two succeeding Army Chiefs happened to be Colonels of different GR Regts leading to a somewhat distorted profile of the Gurkha Brigade officers in matters of promotions and postings. This was the perception of the rest of the officer corps.Gen Shabeg Singh being an 11th GR officer was seen as a favourite of the outgoing Chief, Gen Bewoor. This caused problems with officers from other Regts. They carried tales to the then Chief, Gen Raina who was notorious for being susceptibile to that sort of thing. The end result is known to everyone.

It must be recognised that Shabeg influenced Bhindranwala very heavily in the matter of fortifying the Golden Temple and making a last stand there. He had a strong death wish and wanted to go out in 'a blaze of glory' as he mistakenly percieved it. The plan of luring the Indian Army into a killing zone in front of the Akal Takhat was his alone.

How will posterity treat him ? He will forever remain one of history's grey figures. On one side a true Indian, a patriot and a fearless captain of war. The flip side reveals a man out to redeem himself, out to regain lost honour who unfortunately chose the wrong path. For all of this he was to the end a brave man albeit with the wrong set of values.

p.s Niazi's statement is a lot of nonsense ! It was he in fact who tried to subvert Sikh officers like Shabeg and Gen JS Bhullar with his stories of how Sikhs had been done in.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Rudra » 13 Jun 2003 20:34

how does late Gen A Vaidya rate ? and where would
you put Gen Sunderji ? Gen JFR Jacob ?

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Phil » 13 Jun 2003 20:52

While fortifying the Golden Temple was wrong, what the Govt did to remove Bhindranwale was equally wrong. The army was not at fault here, as they were following orders from Indira Gandhi and her ilk. Alas, the army got the rap for it :(

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby debjani » 13 Jun 2003 20:54

Mandeep

An excellent and balanced post, sir.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 13 Jun 2003 20:58

History is to learn and never make the same mistakes. The bottom line is born and committed leaders are far and few and using them towards benifit of motherland is what should be done.

India through out its history has been unfortunate that its people mostly fought among themselves on petty issues like "religion","caste" and foreigners made full optimum use of this divisiveness.

To keep some group happy in India democracy ensures that it is on the expense of some other group.

1980s punjab was Sikhs vs Hindus as politicians tried to reap their respective crops while today in Jalandhar it is Sikh Jats vs. Chamars. now Kanshi ram, Congress, Akalis are meddling in caste politics in Punjab. These petty differrences and corrupt politicians who use these is the real trouble. Why can't we have a legislation in Parliament that any party that represent certain "religion","caste","people","group" is banned.

Anyhow... Shabeg Singh as a soldier was undoubtly among the best India produced this century.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Phil » 13 Jun 2003 23:48

Originally posted by sbajwa:
Why can't we have a legislation in Parliament that any party that represent certain "religion", "caste", "people", "group" is banned.
Then India will not have a Parliament at all. It is those different religions, castes, people and groups which form India and thus ultimately it is those very same groups of people who sit in India's parliament. We cannot alienate them.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Joeqp » 14 Jun 2003 01:40

RajeevT, please delete your post.

Can we cut out the chitter-chatter and stick to the topic please?

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 14 Jun 2003 03:03

Generals that impacted Wars.

1971 was Field Marshall Manekshaw. (good)
1971 was Gen Aurora (good).
1965 was Harbax singh. (good)
1962 was Kaul. (bad)
1948 was Rajindra Singh (good)
1948 was Indian Air Force (Dakotas at Srinagar)??
1945 any indian generals in world war II???
1920 saragarhi? (mostly jcos and ncos)
1910s any indian generals in world war I?
...
...
...

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Prem » 14 Jun 2003 04:39

While fortifying the Golden Temple was wrong, what the Govt did to remove Bhindranwale was equally wrong. The army was not at fault here, as they were following orders from Indira Gandhi and her ilk. Alas, the army got the rap for it
________________________________________________-

Feroze,
i agree with you 500 percent / these 2 wrongs
( clash of personalities and prejudices for which India paid with the blood of 1000s) were all about personal egos.

The only silver lining is India got rid of Both Ig and BW, both got what they deserved. With lesson learned, lets focus on to give what Pagal Pookistan deserve as they have warmed themseves in the heat of the funeral pyres of Indians, punjab and kashmir and n.east etc .
India first should be the standard for all Indian, especially for "so called leaders.

prem

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mehta » 14 Jun 2003 04:45

I am little bit surprised not much of
Gen. Sunderji. (Suppose to be a thinking General).

Also is there anything distinguished about
Gen A Vaidya ? ( We all know what happened in 1984, so please leave it out).

Also I have read regarding Gen. Thiym (spelling ?) in 1960 ... or earlier. He was so popular etc. there were strong rumors of a coup in India.

Thanks

Ashish

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 14 Jun 2003 06:21

Gen. Sundarji RAPIDS Divisions(Very Good)..... Though some progress but we should have a close knit of army and Air force that can facilitate capture/travel of 100 miles in a single day (along with all the supplies).

Which general is responsible for Artillery division?

Which general is responsible for electronics stuff (UAVs, Radars, etc).

How about logistics? (bridges, supplies, etc).

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mandeep » 14 Jun 2003 20:17

Thank you Ray Saab for your appreciation. In matters political it is best to retain one's balance and see matters through the prism of national interest.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mandeep » 14 Jun 2003 20:24

Sandeep, at it once again! If politicians are to blame for all the ills besieging us where do you stand my friend? Don't you think you're accentuating differences by your championing of Gen Shabeg Singh ?

And why this lionizing of Gen Shabeg alone to the detriment of other generals ? Sandeep doesn't even mention other distinguished Sikh generals like Kalwant, Harbaksh,Bhagat etc.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby S Bajwa » 14 Jun 2003 20:47

Mandeep Sir.. What is your email address? I will reply via email... then if you want you can post my comments.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Guest » 14 Jun 2003 20:57

Sandeep, Mandeep,

No more postings about Shahbeg.

Thanks

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby JCage » 15 Jun 2003 02:05

Originally posted by Administrator:
Sorry cannot stand this pussyfooting around.

The terrorists (and that includes Shahbeg Singh) in the Golden Temple are no different then the LET and other vermin who are no different from the LTTE.

All 3 have murdered Indian soldiers in cold blood.

Where was Shahbeg when they captured Sub Ravi and dynamited him? Or when they captured a unarmed doctor and chopped of his limb. These were savages. Same goes for those who are pussyfooting around the other threads trying to seperate the murder of IPKF soldiers on decisions of RG. BS.

The necklacing of soldiers by the LTTE will never be forgiven.

There are many people with grievances in the army and in India in general. Not all of them go off and join terrorists.

There will be no more ambiguity on the nature of Khalistani terrorists, J&K terrorists and the LTTE. This will be treated on the same lines as Pakistani propaganda.
Well said.A terrorist is a terrorist.And a traitor a traitor.So after serving x years some chap goes off and has his former colleagues,his juniors butchered to prove his point/make up for his angst.Hardly makes that cretin a martyr.
Thank goodness for calling a spade a spade.
Will end here but till the end of days will never forget the acts of LTTE,Khalistanis and assorted murderers.That should hold true for all of us,religion,caste etc be damned.

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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Khalsa » 15 Jun 2003 09:55

Please stop it all of you guys.... (and gals if any)

We all call our selves members of Bharat Rakshak. Then first go and read Bharat Rakshak's portion on Operation Blue Star. It clearly states that we will detail about the military op and not about reasons and nature and the history of how this was built up. If officially BR presents its view in such manner then why are moving away from it. Otherwise we can go and discuss everything from Mrs Indira Ghandhi to Guru Nanak

This thread has such a good name (and intention) and should have been sharply focused to discuss the military contributions of all and any generals. It only shows the poor level of concentration and the susceptibility of all of us to small provocations. I myself was going to contribute for Gen Harbaksh and SundarJee.

First of all (if you want) give credit to Gen Shahbegh for 71 and then move on to Gen Aurora, Gen Sundarjee etc etc. Grow up everyone. Check the heading of this thread. Its not about discussing the feelings of Sikh community or why a soldier became a terrorist. Shahbegh never used the power he had to terrorize people. One who does is a terrorist. Amritsar has a considerable Hindu population especially Jewelers. Were they terrorized or even other Sikhs. Till date there are no recorded incidences of any population being terrorized by Shahbegh.

So lets not call him a terrorist but a militant cause his views were that. Check the definition of terrorism. What Shahbegh did in the end was as a Civilian but as a soldier who heeded the call above and beyond. But thats my opnion after hearing countless officers narrate the Muki Bhahni episode to be in the mess and reading many army books towards his contribution.

So say if you want to Shahbegh was a religious fool in civilian life like Bal Thackrey but a soldier he was second to none. Does anyone here want to call bal Thackrey a terrorist cause I think he is not. He is man with militant views. Shame to all of us who are only to eager to bring out the lime cordial drinking habits of other non-related Sikh officers in the mess when a totally non-related personality and issue is being discussed.

Secondly please do not classify us in LTTE or Jammu And Kashmir category. Thats grossly wrong to do so. You are alienating us. We are Punjabis, very proud and prouder that we are Indians and stand in the route of invaders since centuries and will continue to do so. In my opinion this thread should be locked so to punish us for our petty differences, lack of maturity and intolerance for people posting their opinions.

United India - my foot. If this was the going then any drunk, bird brain Pakistani agent would have us believe that Sandeep Bajwa was planning to create Punjab or Khalistan. Let everyone voice their opinions. Freedom of thought and opinion is what promotes growth and progression and not strict iron clad fisting and brushing of matters beneath the carpet.

Also I would suggest that at no point should any admin be pushed to become or incline himself/herself to become a judge. This is a forum and not a court gathering.

Thats all my two paise.

Blessings to all of you and me.
Sat Sri Akal and Jai Hind.

Vivek K
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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Vivek K » 15 Jun 2003 10:05

Originally posted by Khalsa:
Please stop it all of you guys.... (and gals if any)

Secondly please do not classify us in LTTE or Jammu And Kashmir category. Thats grossly wrong to do so. You are alienating us. We are Punjabis, very proud and prouder that we are Indians and stand in the route of invaders since centuries and will continue to do so. In my opinion this thread should be locked so to punish us for our petty differences, lack of maturity and intolerance for people posting their opinions.

United India - my foot. If this was the going then any drunk, bird brain Pakistani agent would have us believe that Sandeep Bajwa was planning to create Punjab or Khalistan. Let everyone voice their opinions. Freedom of thought and opinion is what promotes growth and progression and not strict iron clad fisting and brushing of matters beneath the carpet.

Blessings to all of you and me.
Sat Sri Akal and Jai Hind.
Beautifully put, Khalsaji! And like a Punjabi! But Punjabis are not tattoos to be alienated like the Kashmiris! If alienated we roar even louder and devour the alienator. Well, the Sikhs have done for India what not many other could. Strapping themselves full of grenades and lying in the path of Pakistani tanks!! Was Shaitan Singh (His men fought against the Chinese even though asked to retreat) a Sikh?

I have not heard much about Shahbeg Singh other than his militant role. Would appreciate to learn more about him and why he did what he did?

debjani
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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby debjani » 15 Jun 2003 10:42

Please chaps. Lets quit this. Lets heed the admin's wise advice. Its leading us nowhere.

Mehta
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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Mehta » 15 Jun 2003 10:47

Folks,

These General, Hindus,Sikhs are role models for all of us.
I don't like when people of particular religon talk or have role models people of own religon only

Personelly I would like to see a Sikh Officer as the Indian Army Chief (Of course he should be a rightfully deserving candidate not because of his religon.)

Khalsa,
What you are seeing on this thread is 'diversity in Unity'.

Coming back to the topic,

Please contribute your stuff regarding Gen Harbaksh and Gen SundarJee.

Thanks

Mehta

Paul
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Re: India's Generals who made an Impact

Postby Paul » 15 Jun 2003 15:24

Major Shaitan Singh was a Rajput. I beleive his village in Rajasthan has been renamed to be Shaitan Singh Nagar.

Look up "Lest we Forget" by Amarinder Singh for more details.


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