2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

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ManSingh
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby ManSingh » 31 Dec 2020 03:01

Ambar wrote:
Vivek K wrote:I have notice the same among Sikh friends - a hatred for Modi and love for Kejriwal. It puzzles me because I thought the Sikhs hated Congress and like BJP since it was allied to the Akali Dal. Any Sikh friend care to enlighten us about the cause for this?


Hindus-India-RSS-Modi-Gujaratis-Ambani/Adani, that's the direction of hate that's all. Not every sikh but atleast a vocal section of the sikh society for whatever the reason harbors a deep distrust and hatred for the Hindus and it manifests into hatred for India/RSS/Modi/Gujaratis/Ambani,Adani,Patanjali etc.


Not really and your understanding is a bit simplistic. Why exactly protests target Ambani/Adani/Patanjli:

A (congress) politician says the following:

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/adani-ambani-groups-registered-53-agro-based-companies-congress-mps-bid-to-link-farm-laws-to-businesses/694742

My opinion is that I believe it is true. These agro companies were registered in the recent past and probably with insider knowledge of changes that were to happen in this sector. Farm leaders have pointed out to a NITI aayog meeting between farm leaders, central government and private firms sometime in 2017. The agenda was on how to increase investment in agriculture. As per farm leadership, the private industry mentioned that they would invest if given the right business climate ( i.e. no say to farm unions on how investment will be done ). The meeting ended in 2017 after the farm leaders protested on being left out in providing policy inputs. The next this topic was heard about when ordinances were passed sometime in June this year.

So yes there was background work done by private industry and the government over the last two years and as a result of this insider information agro firms were registered to take the first mover advantage. As much as we dislike it, inside information, back hand dealing are acceptable business practices and firms with the best flow of information tend to be more competitive and successful. Unfortunately in this case it has slightly back fired ( though we do not know the final outcome yet ) leading to targeting of companies hoping to take the first mover advantage.

OmkarC
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby OmkarC » 31 Dec 2020 03:06

Vivek K wrote:I have notice the same among Sikh friends - a hatred for Modi and love for Kejriwal. It puzzles me because I thought the Sikhs hated Congress and like BJP since it was allied to the Akali Dal. Any Sikh friend care to enlighten us about the cause for this?


I dont think we need to go over this again and again.. there is a lot of hatred from other religions (including so called "Dharmic" folks) towards Hindus, is an established fact..something we have to assume as a norm than exception. I personally have met far more gentle and pro-Hindu thinking folks among non-Indians (brought up in Christian & Muslim households) than among Sikhs, but that's too small a sample to make any generalizations about any community. Its not just that, but I think Sikhs are too irrelevant to Hindus to either take any action or have any emotional response to their actions.

What bothers me is why we are giving Sikhs & Punjab so much importance that the past 10 pages of BRF has been consumed by the local Delhi/Punjab farmer issues. Sikhs are the ones who need India & Hindus, not the other way round. If all Hindus were Abrahamized, anyone even thinking about uttering the word "Khalis..." would have been wiped out ruthlessly and their dear western "liberal" friends who are so eagerly championing their extremist elements would not lift an eyebrow at such ruthless actions. Not to mention, their entire community would be picked off and converted within a few decades akin to the "land of the pure".

Instead, we could focus on consolidating Hindus and champion Hindu issues, which are becoming very prominent to the survival of Hinduism in India - protecting Temples, enforcing UCC & stabilizing Islamic/Christian populations to at least their current numbers to ensure India remains a Hindu majority. If we dont have the numbers, nothing else matters. And Sikhs are a net zero group who dont matter in the long run.

Just recently, there is an issue related to beheading an ancient Sri Rama's statue by "miscreants" in Andhra.. What a joke India's Hindus have become - they are building a grand temple in Ayodhya, while in rural India temples are being plundered and vandalized by RoP/L ers. These dangerous elements that are silently spreading their tentacles across India are the real threat and they are the ones that need to be fought.

We Hindus are just being distracted annually by these foreign funded protests following a cyclical pattern - as if some billionaire honcho has surplus money to avoid taxes and donates that money to a "non-profit charity", at the end of the tax season, and that money is being used to organize these mass-protests.

I hope Modi ji/Shah continue their laser focus on capturing political power, and subsequently bring about real change - securing temples, organizing Hindu community and stabilizing the Abrahamic populations, while fending off external foes.. nothing else matters.

m_saini
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby m_saini » 31 Dec 2020 03:19

OmkarC wrote:<snip>
We Hindus are just being distracted annually by these foreign funded protests following a cyclical pattern - as if some billionaire honcho has surplus money to avoid taxes and donates that money to a "non-profit charity", at the end of the tax season, and that money is being used to organize these mass-protests.

I hope Modi ji/Shah continue their laser focus on capturing political power, and subsequently bring about real change - securing temples, organizing Hindu community and stabilizing the Abrahamic populations, while fending off external foes.. nothing else matters.


+1
Though the work of organizing Hindu community shouldn't fall on their shoulders. The most important thing they can do is to stay in power for the next couple of decades atleast and to free the temples from gov control. Give temples the power to use their own money and let them (and us) do the rest of the work.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Ambar » 31 Dec 2020 03:57

ManSingh wrote:Not really and your understanding is a bit simplistic. Why exactly protests target Ambani/Adani/Patanjli:

A (congress) politician says the following:

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/adani-ambani-groups-registered-53-agro-based-companies-congress-mps-bid-to-link-farm-laws-to-businesses/694742

My opinion is that I believe it is true. These agro companies were registered in the recent past and probably with insider knowledge of changes that were to happen in this sector. Farm leaders have pointed out to a NITI aayog meeting between farm leaders, central government and private firms sometime in 2017. The agenda was on how to increase investment in agriculture. As per farm leadership, the private industry mentioned that they would invest if given the right business climate ( i.e. no say to farm unions on how investment will be done ). The meeting ended in 2017 after the farm leaders protested on being left out in providing policy inputs. The next this topic was heard about when ordinances were passed sometime in June this year.

So yes there was background work done by private industry and the government over the last two years and as a result of this insider information agro firms were registered to take the first mover advantage. As much as we dislike it, inside information, back hand dealing are acceptable business practices and firms with the best flow of information tend to be more competitive and successful. Unfortunately in this case it has slightly back fired ( though we do not know the final outcome yet ) leading to targeting of companies hoping to take the first mover advantage.


It is not complicated either. Any company with large exposure to energy and infrastructure will look like at the agro ecosystem as an organic expansion of business. Ambani was clear about his intentions of "farm to fork" well before the farm bills were even a subject of discussion, and it should have been clear that they will look at widening their footprint in the agro business the moment they entered the retail business. A cursory look at Adani's balance sheet will tell us they've been in agro business for a long time . A company that controls ports and transportation will use their large infrastructure to their advantage by entering the agro industry. I looked back at 2013 and Adani had a footprint in the agro commodities business. Hating these two local conglomerates just because they are Gujaratis and therefore somehow connected with farm bills and in turn will usurp farmer's lands is paranoia of the highest order.


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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Kati » 31 Dec 2020 06:45

Rule of the Obnoxious

https://drishtikone.news/p/insightful-n ... tikone-79c

When CPI(M) members hacked Pranab and Malay Kumar Sain in 1970 and forced their mother to eat rice smeared in her sons’ blood, the Communists were legitimizing hatred, abuse, and obnoxious ways against those who did not agree with them.


These barbarians talk about democracy, human rights, and try to take a moral high ground .....

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby RajeevK » 31 Dec 2020 07:32

ManSingh wrote:
Not really and your understanding is a bit simplistic. Why exactly protests target Ambani/Adani/Patanjli:

A (congress) politician says the following:

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/adani-ambani-groups-registered-53-agro-based-companies-congress-mps-bid-to-link-farm-laws-to-businesses/694742

My opinion is that I believe it is true. These agro companies were registered in the recent past and probably with insider knowledge of changes that were to happen in this sector. Farm leaders have pointed out to a NITI aayog meeting between farm leaders, central government and private firms sometime in 2017. The agenda was on how to increase investment in agriculture. As per farm leadership, the private industry mentioned that they would invest if given the right business climate ( i.e. no say to farm unions on how investment will be done ). The meeting ended in 2017 after the farm leaders protested on being left out in providing policy inputs. The next this topic was heard about when ordinances were passed sometime in June this year.

So yes there was background work done by private industry and the government over the last two years and as a result of this insider information agro firms were registered to take the first mover advantage. As much as we dislike it, inside information, back hand dealing are acceptable business practices and firms with the best flow of information tend to be more competitive and successful. Unfortunately in this case it has slightly back fired ( though we do not know the final outcome yet ) leading to targeting of companies hoping to take the first mover advantage.

Adani has been in agri-logistics business since 2004. They built the modern grain storage infrastructure for Food Corporation of India in 2007 in Moga and Kaithal. Both are based on Build Own Operate model for 20 years. So i don't they own it permanently. There was an open tender and Adani's bid was successful.
Reliance has Reliance Fresh since 2006. And they have a lot of experience of working with the government.
NITI Aayog holds such meetings with industries. There is nothing new about it. I doubt there meetings would be secret either. After all, lots of bureaucrats join private companies after retirement. The Niti Aayog Task Force on Agriculture Development in fact was set up sometime in 2015. If you go to page 9 of one of the papers of the task force calle 'Raising Agricultural Productivity and Making Farming Remunerative for Farmers',

---
The second aspect of the price received by the famer concerns the small fraction of the price paid by the final consumer that the farmer receives in the marketplace. The continued presence of regulations flowing from the Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC) Acts in most commodities in most states has meant that the farmer is compelled to sell her produce in the government-controlled marketing yards. These controls restrict transactions to the handful of local players and easy manipulations. The APMC market yards are subject to vast technical as well as marketing inefficiencies that undermine the prices that farmers receive (Chand 2012). Only a genuine implementation of the model APMC Act of 2003, which introduces all-around marketing reform, can ensure that the farmer gets her fair share of the price paid by the final consumer (Gulati and Ganguly 2010). Additionally, some of the restrictive features of the Essential Commodity Act, which create an environment of uncertainty and
discourage the entry of larger players into agricultural-marketing infrastructure, requires review and possibly revision.
--

If Adani and Ambani have been agile in setting up a slew of companies to take advantage of the new Farm Laws, they should be commended. After all, no one stopped other companies such as ITC to do the same.

ManSingh
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby ManSingh » 31 Dec 2020 07:56

RajeevK wrote:
ManSingh wrote:
Not really and your understanding is a bit simplistic. Why exactly protests target Ambani/Adani/Patanjli:

A (congress) politician says the following:

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/adani-ambani-groups-registered-53-agro-based-companies-congress-mps-bid-to-link-farm-laws-to-businesses/694742

My opinion is that I believe it is true. These agro companies were registered in the recent past and probably with insider knowledge of changes that were to happen in this sector. Farm leaders have pointed out to a NITI aayog meeting between farm leaders, central government and private firms sometime in 2017. The agenda was on how to increase investment in agriculture. As per farm leadership, the private industry mentioned that they would invest if given the right business climate ( i.e. no say to farm unions on how investment will be done ). The meeting ended in 2017 after the farm leaders protested on being left out in providing policy inputs. The next this topic was heard about when ordinances were passed sometime in June this year.

So yes there was background work done by private industry and the government over the last two years and as a result of this insider information agro firms were registered to take the first mover advantage. As much as we dislike it, inside information, back hand dealing are acceptable business practices and firms with the best flow of information tend to be more competitive and successful. Unfortunately in this case it has slightly back fired ( though we do not know the final outcome yet ) leading to targeting of companies hoping to take the first mover advantage.

Adani has been in agri-logistics business since 2004. They built the modern grain storage infrastructure for Food Corporation of India in 2007 in Moga and Kaithal. Both are based on Build Own Operate model for 20 years. So i don't they own it permanently. There was an open tender and Adani's bid was successful.
Reliance has Reliance Fresh since 2006. And they have a lot of experience of working with the government.
NITI Aayog holds such meetings with industries. There is nothing new about it. I doubt there meetings would be secret either. After all, lots of bureaucrats join private companies after retirement. The Niti Aayog Task Force on Agriculture Development in fact was set up sometime in 2015. If you go to page 9 of one of the papers of the task force calle 'Raising Agricultural Productivity and Making Farming Remunerative for Farmers',

---
The second aspect of the price received by the famer concerns the small fraction of the price paid by the final consumer that the farmer receives in the marketplace. The continued presence of regulations flowing from the Agricultural Produce Marketing Committees (APMC) Acts in most commodities in most states has meant that the farmer is compelled to sell her produce in the government-controlled marketing yards. These controls restrict transactions to the handful of local players and easy manipulations. The APMC market yards are subject to vast technical as well as marketing inefficiencies that undermine the prices that farmers receive (Chand 2012). Only a genuine implementation of the model APMC Act of 2003, which introduces all-around marketing reform, can ensure that the farmer gets her fair share of the price paid by the final consumer (Gulati and Ganguly 2010). Additionally, some of the restrictive features of the Essential Commodity Act, which create an environment of uncertainty and
discourage the entry of larger players into agricultural-marketing infrastructure, requires review and possibly revision.
--

If Adani and Ambani have been agile in setting up a slew of companies to take advantage of the new Farm Laws, they should be commended. After all, no one stopped other companies such as ITC to do the same.


I didn't say anything negative about Adani and Reliance's newly registered companies. I said seeking information on proposed changes far ahead of competition is how successful companies continue to remain successful and competitive.
I was answering as to why these companies are being targeted because they represent the most likely beneficiaries of the new laws. Not because they are Gujarati.

I know about Adani's silo business. For fair share of price paid by the consumer being paid to the farmer, it is debatable that open public trading is the best approach without any protection. If not MSP, atleast limit prices to within a percentage band of global agricultural futures or make record keeping mandatory ( central law ). In the absence of farming co-ops the lesser educated farmers will have low bargaining power atleast in the initial few years. Dr. Gulati has also suggested to suspend farm laws for upto an year and paying farmers during a transition period to not grow rice and sugar cane. Sugar cane is the other agricultural mess where current buffer stocks are several years worth of consumption even though Indians are the biggest consumers of sugar by far. Even arrears are backlogged by several years.

You are right that reforms are required and they are the way forward. Thanks for your post which is definitely interesting.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby darshan » 31 Dec 2020 08:14

I have some what of a brain and run a big company. It's my job to keep track of where decision making is headed and make my own decisions. It doesn't mean that I'm fed inside information. And, I also know the PM and his work ethic for decades and take his hints seriously. Just the way I take his manifesto seriously. Insider knowledge. Laugh.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby venkat_kv » 31 Dec 2020 09:18

Vivek K wrote:I have notice the same among Sikh friends - a hatred for Modi and love for Kejriwal. It puzzles me because I thought the Sikhs hated Congress and like BJP since it was allied to the Akali Dal. Any Sikh friend care to enlighten us about the cause for this?


my previous post didn't show up so i will try writing the whole again.

I am not a sikh or from Punjab but my reasoning would be that there are a myriad of reasons for sikhs hatred of Modi.
Punjab is basically a state with only dual centers of power shared between Akalis (even though there is BJP they are still with Akalis and not yet on their own) and Congress. In a society/town/village where there are two opposing groups for primacy if one takes the support of one political group and the other will definitely go to the second group. So even though we have Op. BlueStar and 1984 when it comes to survival instincts and self preservation groups often still prefer to support their political powers. the congress might have lost the elections in the 80's but once there is any mismangement by the Akalis (in the case of Punjab) the power will shift to the other party (in this case the congress). this could also be one of the reasons congress survives in the states with only two party structure ( Gujarat, Rajasthan, MP, AP until it was divided).

Modi was very critical of Dr. Manmohan Singh as a Prime Minister. Dr. Singh was a source of pride for a lot of Sikhs that he occupied the highest office in the land and was also a noted economist who had opened India through liberalization or so the thought goes. he also apologized for the Sikh riots although it should have been the congress head at the time. Most Sikh diaspora seem to draw a blank or silence when the issue of scams are brought up during Dr. Singh tenure and would refer back to coalition era politics and so on. Modi had equally targeted the maa-bete ki sarkar but that is of no interest to the Punjabi bretheren. Essentially it comes down to, he was our guy (so what if some cream was skimmed off the top, who doesn't do it and he shouldn't be held responsible due to coalition politics).

Coming to Kejriwal, he is "seen" by many as an educated former bureaucrat who has started party after succesfully running "India against corruption" (nevermind that it was originally brought about by another group that had Baba Ramdev and then Aamir khan grace it and then taken over by Anna Hazare and then eventually Kejriwal). Kejriwal is seen as someone who is incorruptible that has some people of questionable intent in the party (who doesn't, the thinking goes). People also have forgotten the tall promises made by Kejriwal and what he has delivered on the ground. I can say this with certainty as my own cousin thinks Kejriwal and Manish Sisodia are incorruptable people who have corrupt people in the party. He hates Modi for demonetization, not helping CBN in AP and so on based on what local channels in AP spout and he was one of the biggest modi supporters in 2013/2014.

Kejriwal is also seen as a local Delhi boy but Modi is outsider from Gujarat. The freebies also help shore up image of kejri, at what expense to the state exchequer is not bothered by the folks.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby sanjayc » 31 Dec 2020 11:06

^^ You have not mentioned the big elephant in the room: religion. Many Sikhs have got Abrahamized and their hate for Hindus and Hindu leaders is similar to hate of Hindus by Muslims and Christians. In short, they have turned religious bigots and should be treated by Hindus with extreme prejudice. No need to put them on a high pedestal because of history of the Gurus. We don't owe anyone respect if they only give hatred in return for no apparent reason.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby vimal » 31 Dec 2020 11:47

https://twitter.com/GlobalHindu2020/sta ... 4831544321

This
@NCPspeaks
leader Arbaz Khan is not only threatening Hindus to leave India or get their morhers & sisters raped publically.

But he exposes how coward Hindu leaders are in NCP under
@PawarSpeaks
who appointed
@AnilDeshmukhNCP
as HM who is also from Nagpur.


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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Vayutuvan » 31 Dec 2020 12:02

Lisa wrote:Thank you. Have read both the above. Unbelievable!

Have been around Gurdwaras all my life but our community is distinctly different. We attend a Kenyan Gurdwara that has remained aloof from dictates from India. No eating by sitting on the floor, only on tables and chairs, no fund raising for khalistan, no photos of bindranwale, etc. With the deepest of respects to all, some Indian Sikhs have attempted to impose their will but have been confronted and thrown out, repeatedly.


What is the problem with "eating by sitting on the floor"? tables and chairs - phaw. who ever had those in desh in 1977 leave alone in 1960s?!!!

very elitist you are! :((

(Not that I support bhndranwala, Khalistan, or other disntingegratiin forces, but you,sire/ma'am, have gone a little out of kilter here)

nvishal
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby nvishal » 31 Dec 2020 12:10

The immediate threat to Sikhism is the establishment of the Indian state. It makes the notion of Sikhism irrelevant. Conservative sikhs may not understand geopolitics but they instinctively understand the purpose of their establishment.

During the raj, the indian military was dominated by those castes that allied and assisted in the colonial rule(called martial castes). After the fall of the raj, many of these castes lost their preferential treatment. Both indian military and political spaces began incorporating non-punjabi castes.

Sikhism suffers from an internal dilemma. It has to change its purpose to survive but it refuses to acknowledge that the problem exists. The mischievous acts by its frustrated followers have ended up angering non-punjabi castes into giving a silent treatment and walking away, thus isolating sikhs(and punjabis) even further.

Contrary to what people here believe, the social collapse of punjab(an implosion is expected) isn't a cause of concern for other Indian castes/states. Senior politicians in other parts of India view punjabi and bengali castes as those who couldn't safeguard their own territory(1947 partition) from its own rebel castes(banganli/punjabi muslims). The event had lasting impressions. Today, neither of these two castes have much influence in central govt(new delhi).

So to answer your question - why do so many sikhs hate hindus?

A) Because after the fall of punjab, the hindus became the ONLY rightful heirs to the throne of new delhi, as it is apparent now so clearly.

The sikhs had no chance of any leadership role in muslim punjab(pakistan) and their only other bet(new delhi) is settled as well.

The mischievous conduct you see now is a form of rebellion. They are telling you that if they cannot become a part of the leadership, they will become a part of chaos. You will see this same conduct in kerala and west bengal.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby vimal » 31 Dec 2020 15:00

What is wrong with Hindus?
Give this a listen and you will agree.

chetak
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby chetak » 31 Dec 2020 16:25

and now, listen to this

Hinduism=Hindutva.

Share and spread the word with those who are yet to understand this!



Watch Video

via@nehaltyagi08

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby SBajwa » 31 Dec 2020 21:23

Vayutuvan wrote:
Lisa wrote:Thank you. Have read both the above. Unbelievable!

Have been around Gurdwaras all my life but our community is distinctly different. We attend a Kenyan Gurdwara that has remained aloof from dictates from India. No eating by sitting on the floor, only on tables and chairs, no fund raising for khalistan, no photos of bindranwale, etc. With the deepest of respects to all, some Indian Sikhs have attempted to impose their will but have been confronted and thrown out, repeatedly.


What is the problem with "eating by sitting on the floor"? tables and chairs - phaw. who ever had those in desh in 1977 leave alone in 1960s?!!!

very elitist you are! :((

(Not that I support bhndranwala, Khalistan, or other disntingegratiin forces, but you,sire/ma'am, have gone a little out of kilter here)


Sikhs who migrated during British times to Kenya, Canada, USA, etc. Their Gurudwara's have langar hall with chairs and tables for everyone. The Sikhs who migrated recently (1980s) do not.
There was actually a huge agitation to ban these Gurudwaras but without success. If you live in Bay area you can check out these Gurudwaras with tables/chairs.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby KJo » 31 Dec 2020 21:23

Vayutuvan wrote:
What is the problem with "eating by sitting on the floor"? tables and chairs - phaw. who ever had those in desh in 1977 leave alone in 1960s?!!!

very elitist you are! :((

(Not that I support bhndranwala, Khalistan, or other disntingegratiin forces, but you,sire/ma'am, have gone a little out of kilter here)


I think Lisa is just telling us how they did things, not that anything is better or worse. Just different.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby KJo » 31 Dec 2020 22:39

chetak wrote:Hinduism=Hindutva.


Tharoor mama, with all his fancy degrees and "scholarship" keeps insisting that he is a proud Hindu but then keeps taunting "Hindutva" on social media claiming that it was invented by Savarkar/Golwalkar to mean a Hindu state where everyone else was not welcome and kicked out. I find it hard to believe that someone like him is so disingenuous.

Hindutva just means Hindu-ness. The behaviors displayed by a Hindu person. One small example can be Hindus don't step on money (coins/paper money) as we consider it to be a form of Lakshmi. At one of the BR meets about 19 years ago, there was a Christian BRFite who used to be well known and left about 10 years ago. As we talked, a coin rolled out of his pocket and he stepped on it to stop it. I was taken aback but realized that his upbringing was not the same as mine. We don't handle books with our feet either. There are many much bigger impactful examples.

So to turn Hindutva into a form of Naziism like the Congress is doing is deceit. They never use "Islamists" either because they don't want to anger Muslims. I had to explain this same thing to my Indian Muslim classmates on our Whatsapp group saying nothing wrong with Hindutva.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby dsreedhar » 31 Dec 2020 23:07

I see a lot of this non-sense peddled that hindutva is not Hinduism by sicular idiots and anti-hindus. We know their intentions and trying to equate to extremist Islamists and supremacist.
As Kjo said Hindutva is just hinduness, embodiment of hindu feeling, thought and behaviour. I think it is addition of suffix tattva.
Hinduism is religion name and Hindutva/Hindutvam is just embodiment of the feeling, thought and principles. The only diff if one may say so is one is name of religion and the other is embodiment of the religion in one.

For Vaishnavism the equivalent would be Vaishnatvam, for Shaivism it is Shaivatvam. Similarly for Christianity it would be Christavam, For Buddhism would be Bouddham or Bhodisatvam. Don't know the equivalent for Islam.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Haresh » 31 Dec 2020 23:12

nvishal wrote:So to answer your question - why do so many sikhs hate hindus?


This is nonsense.
I was raised Sikh and no one in my circle hates Hindus, why would we, we were raised to regard them as one and the same.

A very good friend of mine who I have known since junior school is a Guju (his name is Modi, I kid you not)

Anyway ever since I met him at Junior school he has always worn the Sikh steel bracelet.
I asked him why and the story is as follows.

His family were expelled by Idi Amin from Uganda.
They came to London.
Upon arrival at the airport, the parents with 5-6 children in tow were very apprehensive about finding lodgings and work.
At the airport they met an elderly Sikh gent, who took them to the Sikh temple on Havelock Rd, Southall.
They stayed there for a few nights and then the father was taken to a factory by one of the other Singhs, they found him a job, and he did the same job until he retired.

This animosity and hatred is from the small khalistani elements. Just because they shout the loudest, doesn't mean they are "so many"

All societies and groups are subject to criticism, that is natural, and sometimes justifiable, that is not hatred.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Lisa » 31 Dec 2020 23:24

Vayutuvan wrote:
Lisa wrote:Thank you. Have read both the above. Unbelievable!

Have been around Gurdwaras all my life but our community is distinctly different. We attend a Kenyan Gurdwara that has remained aloof from dictates from India. No eating by sitting on the floor, only on tables and chairs, no fund raising for khalistan, no photos of bindranwale, etc. With the deepest of respects to all, some Indian Sikhs have attempted to impose their will but have been confronted and thrown out, repeatedly.


What is the problem with "eating by sitting on the floor"? tables and chairs - phaw. who ever had those in desh in 1977 leave alone in 1960s?!!!

very elitist you are! :((

(Not that I support bhndranwala, Khalistan, or other disntingegratiin forces, but you,sire/ma'am, have gone a little out of kilter here)


There is absolutely nothing wrong in eating on the floor. However, in winter the floors in the UK are usually freezing and when an 'order' arrives from Amritsar ordering all congregations to sit on these cold floors, something has to give. In this Gurdwara, the committee refused point blank. Virtually all the other UK Gurdwaras complied.
Last edited by Lisa on 31 Dec 2020 23:34, edited 1 time in total.

OmkarC
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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby OmkarC » 31 Dec 2020 23:27

m_saini wrote:
OmkarC wrote:<snip>
We Hindus are just being distracted annually by these foreign funded protests following a cyclical pattern - as if some billionaire honcho has surplus money to avoid taxes and donates that money to a "non-profit charity", at the end of the tax season, and that money is being used to organize these mass-protests.

I hope Modi ji/Shah continue their laser focus on capturing political power, and subsequently bring about real change - securing temples, organizing Hindu community and stabilizing the Abrahamic populations, while fending off external foes.. nothing else matters.


+1
Though the work of organizing Hindu community shouldn't fall on their shoulders. The most important thing they can do is to stay in power for the next couple of decades atleast and to free the temples from gov control. Give temples the power to use their own money and let them (and us) do the rest of the work.


That could be one way.. decentralized temple administration with some form of blockchain technology.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby KJo » 31 Dec 2020 23:35

It's been 6 years and still the Hindu temples are under the yoke of Government. Why has the Modi Govt not made progress? Do they not want to?

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby OmkarC » 01 Jan 2021 01:13

KJo wrote:It's been 6 years and still the Hindu temples are under the yoke of Government. Why has the Modi Govt not made progress? Do they not want to?


My guess - they are expecting a far greater backlash for bringing the key reforms and hence don't feel prepared to bring them up. It's clearly evident that they are not being given enough time to address the major civilizational issues and are being forced to divert their attention, being bullied not to change the status quo. By escalating protests to this extent even for relatively benign legislations like Farmers Bill, CAA, that the govt & their supporters are being warned of "mountains of Hindu corpses" "rivers of Hindu blood" and yet have the entire global media champion their cause & build false narratives of their victimhood, the govt is under major pressure from taking up other major legislations.

The foreign sources funding these protests are banking on having a compounding effect of all protests on India's global image, and the current spate of annual protests mere trial runs/warm up exercises for all the local BIF chapters, prepping them for the real war that is about to come.

If any of the real civilizational issues are brought up - UCC, nationwide anti-conversion bills, my hunch is there will be massive consolidated, co-ordinated & organized rioting across the entire country - the scale not witnessed since partition - that will leave India tattered and broken.. and could lead to permanent rejection of BJP by the humble, timid Hindu "Abduls" who don't like confrontation.

So, just like India prepared for facing China with a Special Frontier Force that was effectively deployed in the Ladakh conflict, govt may be doing the ground work and start preparing a special secretive police force that can handle these potentially massive consolidated protests across the entire country when the real reforms begin. I hope they are truly doing that, or else Hindu populations will be in serious danger.

But OTOH, this is the best & perhaps the most optimal time to have civilizational reforms, when the Hindu population is still ~ 70%.. it will have the strength to absorb any civil wars or unrest now, than to throw future generations of Hindus to the wolves.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby sanjaykumar » 01 Jan 2021 01:38

Please all read this. Especially Lisa. There is always more than meets the eye.


https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/20/worl ... -rage.html

Chairs and tables are lined up on one side of the big community room at the Guru Nanak Sikh Temple and long red floor mats on the other. Members of the temple eat their post-prayer meals of lentils and flat bread in silence, some sitting on chairs, others cross-legged on mats.

But not long ago, this same Sikh temple across the street from a McDonald's Restaurant in this suburb about 20 miles southeast of Vancouver was the scene of a violent confrontation that many here interpreted as an extension of old religious disputes to life in a new world.

Deeply orthodox members of the temple reportedly lashed angrily at other members with knives, clubs and ceremonial swords, slicing through one man's ear, dislocating an executive committee member's arm, smashing a teen-age girl over the head and stabbing a man in the side -- all because of a dispute over whether the Sikh Code of Conduct requires members to sit on floor mats or allows them to use chairs.

Or was it?

''This is not a table and chair issue,'' said Harmohinder Singh Bains, a brawny 38-year-old member of the temple. ''The whole thing is about power, ego and money.''

Mr. Bains, who is clean shaven and wears gray cowboy boots, is what is known as a ''lightly burdened'' Sikh -- that is, he does not wear a turban or let his beard and hair grow uncut.

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Sikhism is a religion that arose in the Punjab region of India from the teachings of a 15th-century guru named Nanak, who laid down its tenets of equality, monotheism and self-restraint. Interpreting those ideas and the Code of Conduct is left up to each community. This has been a source of endless conflict both in the Punjab and in the many new places where Sikhs live.

Mr. Bains belongs to the faction of reform-minded Sikhs who in December 1995 wrested control of the temple -- one of the largest in Canada -- and its $1 million a year in contributions from an executive committee dominated by orthodox Sikhs that had been in power for more than a decade.

''The Western media refer to them as fundamentalists but really they are just hooligans out to cause trouble,'' Mr. Bains said.

But the president of the committee until the last election, Piara Singh Natt, a trucking company executive, bristles at the term ''fundamentalist.''

''Is it fundamentalism to adhere strictly to what we are told to do by the highest authorities in Sikhism?'' Mr. Natt said in an interview.

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Since the confrontation at the temple, Mr. Natt has stayed away, preferring to listen to services on the radio while praying in his spacious home several miles away.

He wears his hair and beard long, and in the middle of an interview at home he unbuttoned his shirt to show the small brass and steel dagger called a kirpan that he, like many devout Sikhs, wears every minute of the day, even while he sleeps, as a symbol of readiness to defend the faith.

''This was a very unfortunate incident,'' Mr. Natt said of the clash over chairs and mats. ''Yes, people were slashed. But not with swords. And not with kirpan. They used utensils from the kitchen.''

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police had to break up the fight. They arrested five Sikhs for assault and attempted murder and have warrants out for four others. The Mounties, who occupied the temple for several days and searched it, using dogs, found more ceremonial swords and weapons stashed away.

The Mounties relinquished control only after both sides agreed to a compromise that allowed both chairs and mats to be used until the executive committee can reach a permanent solution.

Now, on the back wall of the dining hall, there is a sign in Punjabi prohibiting ''proselytizing or speeches with respect to the issue of the use and presence of chairs versus mats.''

But the settlement is only temporary, as may be the peace. Sikhism is based on ideals of equality, Mr. Bains said, and the traditional meal after prayers is an important demonstration that all temple members are equal. Therefore, no one's head should be above another's.

And there are the accusations by the ''lightly burdened'' that their predecessors are really trying to regain control of the temple and of the cash box where the faithful leave their donations.

Mr. Bains and others contend that the previous administration had funneled money to India in support of militant groups fighting for the creation of a Sikh homeland, known as Khalistan, in the Punjab.

''And if it wasn't going there, the money had to be going into somebody's pocket,'' Mr. Bains said.

Mr. Natt flatly denied that even a penny had ever been taken from the temple treasury or sent to the militants. He said that his followers support the idea of an independent Sikh homeland, but he said, ''I do not preach violence.''

This is not the first time Canada has found itself embroiled in Sikh disputes. In 1985 a bomb went off on an Air-India jumbo jet heading from Vancouver to India. The jet crashed off the coast of Ireland, killing all 329 people aboard. Most were Canadians of Indian descent, and officials have attributed the bombing to retaliation over India's attack on a Sikh shrine in 1984.

Last December the Mounties' lead investigator said he expected to charge several suspects in the 1985 bombing by late winter or early spring. The Mounties have long said they suspected that Sikh militants from Vancouver were responsible for the bombing, although they have never suggested that anyone from Guru Nanak Temple was involved.

The walls of the dining hall at the temple are covered with gruesome paintings of decapitations and other horrors that Indian Moguls once used to suppress the Sikhs. Alongside the paintings are modern photographs showing Sikh separatist warriors in India brandishing AK-47's and other assault weapons. The photographs seem eerily out of place in a religious building, especially one that so recently witnessed such an outburst of violence.

Mr. Bains tried to explain that the photographs do not glorify violence and that for Sikhs, violence is condoned only when every other measure has failed.

''Yes these photographs show violence,'' he said, ''but it is a different kind of violence.''

Later, he tried again to explain the presence of the photographs. ''Actually,'' he said, ''the people who put the pictures here were from the other committee.''

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby sudarshan » 01 Jan 2021 02:29

sanjaykumar wrote:The walls of the dining hall at the temple are covered with gruesome paintings of decapitations and other horrors that Indian Moguls once used to suppress the Sikhs. Alongside the paintings are modern photographs showing Sikh separatist warriors in India brandishing AK-47's and other assault weapons. The photographs seem eerily out of place in a religious building, especially one that so recently witnessed such an outburst of violence.


Way to do propaganda :-? , NY Times at it again. See the bolded part - so the average info/ attention-deficient sanity-challenged western idiots can get the impression that the Indian state has been persecuting Sikhs for centuries, just like their own catholic/ protestant wars.

If anybody has the chance to comment on the article, please to point out the blatant misrepresentation.

EDIT: That statement seems even more insidious than at first glance. "Mughals" or even "Moghuls" are (kind of) recognizable to western readers as Muslim rulers. "Moguls" is more like "financial moguls" or "corporate moguls," kind of like "mandarins" or "pandits." Seems deliberate, to give the impression that "Indian officials (moguls)," rather than the invading Muslims, have been subjecting Sikhs to those horrors. Create the subtle but unmistakable impression in the mind of a clueless reader, that Hindu India is somehow behind all this.
Last edited by sudarshan on 01 Jan 2021 03:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Jan 2021 02:32

sanjayc wrote:^^ This is "adult infantilism" -- seen in Dravidians, Muslims, Christians, leftists, and other sundry monotheists. An inability to think straight, ruled by emotions, easy to manipulate and brainwash, low EQ levels ...

If such a long list of generally unrelated categories of people is subject to whatever it is then it’s a safe bet that “it” has little or nothing to do with whatever characterization you decided to put out there as linking those categories.

Let me suggest a different explanation, which is structural in nature: Modi’s challenge is to move things forward without going to outright war with any opponents, and just killing or jailing them all. As would be done in a revolution scenario. In general this is true for any stable governing authority.

That means, in theory, anyone is free to rebel and disrupt the government, maybe even take it down if they can, by forcing a climb up the escalation ladder. There is very little real risk in doing this, because of GoI’s constraints (unlike congress the BJP actually cares about democracy and its ways and norms, as even its detractors like Vinay Sitapati admit).

In practice, those individuals or groups who want to maintain and grow their privileges, or (out of hatred and envy) want to prevent excluded groups from also having similar privileges, will actually take advantage of this free public political space available to them for agitating and disrupting.

On Modi’s side are the people/voters whom he is materially benefiting. They are generally apolitical and passive, so they are not weaponizable in the short term. Modi has shown the ability to mobilize them at election time which is what matters for retaining power. But they can’t be mobilized during normal between-elections periods due to diminishing returns.

Personally I don’t see a clean way out of this stalemate for Modi. But Modi is surely a lot smarter and wiser than I am, so I remain hopeful. Maybe Pakistan of China can be convinced to oblige and do some pakiness so that Modi-voters will wake up and stand up for their man.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby KLNMurthy » 01 Jan 2021 02:51

KJo wrote:It's been 6 years and still the Hindu temples are under the yoke of Government. Why has the Modi Govt not made progress? Do they not want to?

I think you are absolutely right, they don’t want to.

I have said time and again that we shouldn’t let our expectations of Modi government be shaped by propaganda that they are a pro-Hindu government in any sense. They never said they were, or wanted to be.

They are basically a socialist congress-like government which is less corrupt and more functional in terms of actual delivery than congress. That’s it.

They have no more reason than a Congress government to give up the enormous control and wealth represented by the state ownership of temples.

It is up to Hindus to organize and agitate for freeing the temples from government control. Maybe the BJP government won’t crack down too hard on such an agitation, maybe they will.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Kamal_raj » 01 Jan 2021 04:00

I am just asking the question here..

What does it mean when people say free Hindu temples?

This may be easier said than done. Which institution is present today which can take over the temples? What legislation is required to take over these temples? How do we go about it? Should this be done by each individual states or centralised throughout India?

We need the necessary infrastructure and the process required for this governance to be established for the temples to be taken over.

Perhaps RJB temple could be a starting point? May be this institution could be rolled out to slowly takeover temples and make them “independent” of the governmental interference?

The issue is we don’t know what is going on in the background. Is it in BJPs central manifesto that this will be done?

It has been in Karnataka BJPs manifesto. See the issue that have been raised previously by congoons. These guys seem to be very interested in temple management issue in the below website.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thefeder ... ataka/amp/

“But Siddaramaiah and other leaders belonging to backward classes opposed it tooth and nail on the ground that discriminatory practices were followed at the temples, often in favour of the upper caste. Thus it argued, the government must take over the control of the temples to end such practices.”

It is unfair to blame Modi to not implement this. Unthinkable have been achieved and there is so much blowback due to this that needs to be contained.

There is so much ground work to be done to accomplish this tasks. Ideally there should be Hindu organisations which should be debating this and coming up with white paper on the way forward.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby m_saini » 01 Jan 2021 04:23

Kamal_raj wrote:What does it mean when people say free Hindu temples?


"The Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act of 1951"

Here's a couple of articles:

This gives a backdrop for the issue.
How state control over temples is failing secularism in India

The Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act of 1951

The above gives examples, such as

Apparently even the world famous Tirumala Tirupati Temple has not been spared. According to Knapp, the temple collects over Rs 3,100 crores every year and the State Government has not denied the charge that as much as 85 per cent of this is transferred to the State Exchequer, much of which goes to causes that are not connected with the Hindu community.


IT would seem that in Karanataka, Rs. 79 crores were collected from about two lakh temples and from that, temples received Rs seven crores for their maintenance, Muslim madrassahs and Haj subsidy were given Rs 59 crore and churches about Rs 13 crore.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby m_saini » 01 Jan 2021 04:30

It's a catch-22. Hindus can't get organized because there is no central authority which can mobilize them. There hasn't been a central authority because Hindus can't get organized.

Tbh the gravy train from temple donations is so long that no mortal politician would want to stop it. If you could skim couple hundred crores from temple donations each year and dole out another hundred to your votebank in other religions, would you want to stop?

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Kati » 01 Jan 2021 04:46

Pak national becomes gram panchayat head in UP’s Etah, probe ordered :eek: :eek: :eek:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/lucknow/ ... FehJP.html

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby Kamal_raj » 01 Jan 2021 04:51

m_saini wrote:It's a catch-22. Hindus can't get organized because there is no central authority which can mobilize them. There hasn't been a central authority because Hindus can't get organized.


So true, there are all sorts of toxic people to pull us back if we take one step forward. There are no easy answers even BJP states will not follow through for the reasons you mentioned.

It is like a startup once it starts there will be no stopping as the funding is already available.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby vimal » 01 Jan 2021 04:52

m_saini wrote:
The Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act of 1951

IT would seem that in Karanataka, Rs. 79 crores were collected from about two lakh temples and from that, temples received Rs seven crores for their maintenance, Muslim madrassahs and Haj subsidy were given Rs 59 crore and churches about Rs 13 crore.


Thanks for sharing that m_saini. This was a shocking statistic I wasn't aware of.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby sudarshan » 01 Jan 2021 04:55

Hindus should, as far as possible, stop donating to temples, at least for the present. Find ways to organize local youth as volunteers for upkeep or restoration, or service/ guard duty. The youth also develop a sense of ownership that way. Pujari salaries are tricky, going unofficial on those will invite govt. ire (loss of tax revenue?). But if anyway only 10% to 15% of the money actually goes to the temple, why not cut down donations by 85% and compensate with time and other volunteering commitments, including free meal, or even medical service to Pujaris by dedicated local doctors?

Donating money is the easy way out, seva is a more useful commitment.

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Re: 2020 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Postby ramana » 12 Jan 2021 01:40

Split the thread and locked this one. ramana


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