Indian Railways Thread

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Sep 2015 19:34

SaiK wrote:I think the most important thing that I am not reading, or somebody writing about it or even talking here is the 'safety' factors. Our designs must change.

Can you elaborate more on what you meant by 'safety' factors? Is it the overall safety in running a train? Or is it more on the 'safety' aspects of the passengers? The IR actually has a very strict policy & procedure when it comes to maintaining safety in the operations of a train. Done through automatic,semi-automatic and manual ways, but having checks and balances. See how the signalling systems, block operations etc. work. It is very rare to find a "Single Point of Failure" in this system. The track maintenance part; I feel requires some focus.

But passenger safety (from theft etc.) is clearly going down hill. Today a reserved ticket holder cannot expect much security in the compartment. Ticket-less travellers, Wait-listed passengers etc. have a free run out here. Add to it the bullying by the more "organised" season ticket holding passengers. The TTE's authority is very limited (and is often powerless to excercise that). RPF generally is the least bit bothered. Jurisdictional issues makes the GRP also not very effective.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Sep 2015 19:42

Prabhu says Indian Railways will exceed Rs 8.5 lakh cr ($130 billion) five-yr capex target

Days after a report that the Prime Minister’s Office had expressed concern over a slow pace of spending by the railways, minister Suresh Prabhu said they’d “far exceed” the capital expenditure target of Rs 8.5 lakh crore set for the five years till 2019, including this financial year's budget target of a little over Rs 1 lakh crore.

“We will easily surpass the target. The budget did not talk about the Dedicated Freight Corridor project, the funding for which, Rs 82,000 crore, was recently approved by the cabinet. We have already issued contracts worth Rs 15,000 crore in the six months of the current financial year. The rest will come soon,” he told reporters.

Additional spending would, he said, materialise from two other initiatives by the ministry. One is “using the money from customers like Coal India and Steel Authority of India for rail evacuation projects, for which memorandums of understanding are being signed with state governments and port connectivity projects.”

Prabhu also said he had, in a meeting last week with World Bank chief Mulyani Indrawati, discussed the possibility of creating a $30 billion fund to finance key rail projects. “We will make an announcement at the right time,” he said, refusing to share details but disclosing the Bank would act as anchor investor for creation of the proposed fund.

The minister said additional funding of $15-20 bn would soon materialise from implementation of the government’s plan to award contracts for redevelopment of 400 stations on the Swiss Challenge method, a model of project development under public-private partnership which was recently approved by the cabinet.

He also announced a plan to seek Rs 1.5 lakh crore from Life Insurance Corporation for investments in railway projects with a high rate of return has been approved by the board of the state-owned insurer. “Also, 17 states have given their approval for investments through creation of joint ventures for new line capacity creation projects. Putting all this together, we will exceed the Rs 8.5 lakh crore plan,” he said.

Prabhu also said at least Rs 70,000 crore will come “within the next few months” from award of two contracts — for setting up diesel and electric locomotive factories in Bihar, and supply of 15 electric multiple unit train sets or 315 railcars for improving the speed of Rajdhani and Shatabdi trains. Bids for the loco factories were opened by the ministry earlier this month; it is yet to announce the winners.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 29 Sep 2015 20:36

Chanced to see a treasure-trove of videos uploaded on August 15, 2015 (well yes, under the regime of "communal" Modi). It explains the roles & life of the many "hidden" faces on Indian Railways.
The Gang men
The Pointsman
The Station Master
Engine Driver/Loco Pilot
The Guard

One thing many of these videos, highlight is:- women actively doing many of the jobs, as good as men.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Sep 2015 20:52

Sachin you are on the track..

- track safety
- coach redesign to take higher speed (turns and shocks), wheel section
- automatic doors [will stop if opened] and design of windows - must keep it open and unsafe to women travelers (non AC)
- electrification, solar panels to reduce heat/power ACs. many heat related deaths have happened in coaches
- the chain pulling mechanism needs a support from electronics, wifi etc.. how about direct SOS to driver SMS button from cell phones?
- CCTV plus human security
- more integrated security system - like bridge monitoring system, track sensors , automatic stops, etc. [example the Japanese bullets will stop in 2 minutes flat if they sense an earth quake]
...

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Sep 2015 21:07

You could have a simple 'break glass to sound alarm' button instead of a chain and other electronics. Easier too.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2015 23:03

Can I put in another plug for an in-cab signalling system... ...no real time safety is possible without this... A few pages back fellow waved red flowers to stop train! Such is the nature of safety on our tracks....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Sep 2015 23:48

every entry is a security gap. windows and doors. the entry design must be such there are separate escape or emergency exit system that is operational and periodically checked. not just that.. how many people know how to open an emergency exit system? proper training is required. a design for safety and safety-critical aspects is expensive and can't be budgeted and justified by any gov. it has to be driven out of needs and that should come from voters for such a change. an awareness is what that required that seeks for such infrastructure. and conditional analysis is needed.. can we exit during a running train? is there chute system that ejects you out of the train safely? is that a need? I am just exaggerating to just make people think about security.

metro type doors are good start. also, the current doors are narrow especially when at certain stations there are many who want to get in without any line/queue system and the TT/signals person cares a heck for passenger safety. the green signal goes by the clock of 2 minutes. it might be an old lady who is getting in or a handicapped person. a metro door is very useful for such purposes to get in and out quick, with elevator door type that signals obstacles and the whole train system is denied to move, all automatic.

signaling safeties are a chapter by itself.. queueing system itself is a safety system. ticketing is another, which denies a terrorist to get in. safety aspects are there in every walk of travel time. prevention is better than cure, but expensive.

do we have entries for handicapped? even the aged and old can't get in at certain stations.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, DO WE REALLY CARE FOR LIFE? If so, then how much? it is a measure of design for safety.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Sep 2015 02:16

Forget all that, in all the stations that I have used, you have to climb up a step or two of the most ridiculous steps ever on the coach to get into the train. Unless you have metro type of same level coaches, you are going to trouble old, young and the infirm every single time. By now IR should have a standard platform height to make it easy to design new coaches without bloody steps

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Sep 2015 02:44

it is a simple mechanical arrangement/design. mechanical safety plays big role. we have to list all things to be considered and not exclude or forget about them. prioritize the list, and invest in them one by one.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 30 Sep 2015 02:57

vsunder wrote: The Jharia-Bokaro coalfields is another instance, where again work was stopped due to killing of railway construction workers by Naxals, on the Tori-Lohardhaga-Ranchi gauge conversion project. This has again started to move. Tori is on the Grand-Chord and only Tori-Lohardhaga is left to complete. The problem here
is also land acquisition. A completion of Dec 2017 is planned.

Just a small nitpick, Lohardaga is outside the Jharia/Dhanbad - Bokaro - Ramgarh/HazariBagh coalfields. Lohardaga has Bauxite mines instead.
Dhanbad - Bokaro - HazariBagh are largely in non-tribal area, Lohardaga is in deep tribal area (approx. 160 miles SW of Dhanbad).

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 30 Sep 2015 08:59

Ministry of Railways ‏@RailMinIndia Sep 25
@sureshpprabhu Commissioning Target of DFC of 2019 been revised to 2018, For Capacity inhancement work on Fast track all Tender power 2 GMs

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 30 Sep 2015 09:55

SaiK wrote:
- track safety
- coach redesign to take higher speed (turns and shocks), wheel section
- automatic doors [will stop if opened] and design of windows - must keep it open and unsafe to women travelers (non AC)

I feel IR is also aware of all this. But introducing these on a pan-India basis cannot be done in a few years. One thing we must also realise is that many other countries which have a good working railway system are very small compared to India. On the safety aspect (of passengers) on thing which IR should do is stop allowing non-bonafide passengers any where on the railway platform. Let all the "farewell parades" etc. happen in areas outside the platforms. The biggest challenge on personal safety of the passengers is that nobody knows who are entering and leaving a train compartment. Installing CCTV inside the train coaches may be an easier option.

- the chain pulling mechanism needs a support from electronics, wifi etc.. how about direct SOS to driver SMS button from cell phones?

IR's safety rules instruct that the drivers are not supposed to use mobile phones while on duty. This was brought in after an EMU in Chennai shot two danger signals and rammed a stationary train. The driver was found to be talking away on his cell phone.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Sep 2015 15:21

then we have to look at what is happening in the car world! traffic sense and automatic braking systems. the question of large brings in economies of scale which is good. cost will go, but so is the case of the problem. we are huge - 1.2b, and we cannot be compared on the size and relax on security.

I don't understand why we keep telling ourselves, India it is not possible. it is too big! people are corrupt. this is exactly Modi ji is trying to get off from.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 30 Sep 2015 19:10

If Suresh Prabhu can do the eastern and western DFCs by 2018 that will be great. It will have a positive impact in 2019 elections. However, given the massiveness of the project and the fact that so much time has been taken just to award contracts I very much doubt if this is possible by 2018.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Sep 2015 19:30

Sachin wrote:This was brought in after an EMU in Chennai shot two danger signals and rammed a stationary train. The driver was found to be talking away on his cell phone.

Sachin saar,

Just curious. Isn't that a single point of failure?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 30 Sep 2015 20:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:Just curious. Isn't that a single point of failure?

That's an interesting thought. BTW, when I meant two danger signals - I meant the distant/warner signal which would show an Amber (indicating driver to slow down), followed by a home signal indicating Red (before which the driver should stop the train). If this EMU had crossed the red signal, it would have started ringing alarm bells in the whole system. Let me see if I can dig up some more info from IRFCA (BR for IR). But from what I understood the motor man survived the crash (he jumped out), and was dismissed from service. This was an "automatic block territory", where signals positions are based on the train movements further up the line. At first glance I feel the system did not fore-see this case happening; i.e a driver being so callous as to speak on a mobile phone and drive. They had thought about two other situations. Signals giving advance indications, and the dead man's handle which would stop the train in case the driver collapses due to ill-health etc. And also these trains do have a motorman at the rear (a guard in the case of regular passenger/goods trains) who is also to keep a watch on the speeds etc. He too seems to have missed noticing the train moving at a high speed, and also keep an eye for the signals (as they are approaching a station). Both the motor man would have done the "road learning" so would know each and every signal, caution boards, speed limits in the route which they are going on.

In case of other goods/mail/express trains, one of the drivers keeps a watch on the signals, caution boards etc. and then loudly calls out the message ("Distant at caution", "Home at Danger" etc. etc.). The other chap is to check the aspect and confirm it; and take action. The driver and guards are also aware of the various temporary speed restrictions etc. set up, so the guard also keeps an eye when the train approaches these areas. And he gives an all clear (on the walkie talkie, and waves the green flag/lamp) when his caboose crosses the speed restriction limit.

So I feel in very many cases, there are checks and balances but the "single point of failure", is when multiple people forget (at the same time) to do their duties as per the procedure.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 30 Sep 2015 21:27

Supratik wrote:If Suresh Prabhu can do the eastern and western DFCs by 2018 that will be great. It will have a positive impact in 2019 elections. However, given the massiveness of the project and the fact that so much time has been taken just to award contracts I very much doubt if this is possible by 2018.

Please read the numerous long posts I have made on DFC. Suresh Prabhu has made no such claim about 2018, nobody has. Please read the PIB link that I made above on the DFC which has the putative schedule of completions of various sections. There are other links in other posts I have made. At the most optimistic DFC will be complete Dec 2019. Again, the section in Eastern DFC from Son Nagar(Bihar) to Dankuni (WB) ( 540 km)does not even have a funding source and is certainly there are no tenders. It is a very long stretch. The hope is a PPP model. Prabhu seems to think all sections of the DFC will be funded and tendered out by April 2016. By March 2016 within a few months as I have posted on several occasions above the first stretch of any DFC will be commissioned. The 56 km Durgawati-Sasaram section in Bihar on the Eastern DFC (EDFC). Also as I have posted above it is pointless having the DFC trains run on existing tracks. Existing tracks can only carry 22.5 tonne axle loads due to blanketing issues arising from history when tracks were first laid. The DFC is meant to carry 32.5 tonne axle loads( which are industry standards in US, Europe and Russia) though at the start they will start with 27.5 tonne axle loads. The PIB article on DFCC tells you what Prabhu is doing and what was done in the past. After reading that let people post their gripes and complaints. There are at least 1000+ cases of litigation and arbitration going on regarding land issues for the DFCC. Most of them in Bihar, UP, Gujarat and Maharashtra. I have also posted info on sections where the pace of work is very fast and those sections where hardly any work is going on.

Human error is a major concern on IR, like the cell phone incident that Sachin talks about. I doubt a klaxon going off in the cabin would have made any difference when the pilot comes close to the red home without decreasing speed. Pilot pushes a knob and silences the klaxon and goes on talking on his mobile.

Also there are many documents that highlight metallurgical and materials failures. Failed welds form a very large part of the story. Theo had posted a video of the callous way AT welds are done on IR. Blanketing is another issue that I had highlighted with the appropriate RDSO documents. Now we are going over territory that has been discussed repeatedly.

Again I repeat, Bhilai steel plant from where IR sources its rails, is unable to make rails in very long lengths. With 260m lengths they have no method of cooling them down slowly so that no hydrogen pockets form.
This is called Hydrogen embrittlement:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

There is also the problem that IR has of transporting 260m industry standard rails to the work site. Here is
a power point presentation:

http://wiki.iricen.gov.in/doku/lib/exe/ ... 102:10.pdf

The reason that Bhilai cannot make long rails is that the rails have to be cooled slowly and if you do not, then hydrogen gets trapped and weakens the steel/rail. This was the problem with the Khanna derailment.
Hydrogen embrittlement was the primary culprit that compromised the integrity of the rail in the Khanna disaster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanna_rail_disaster

So rails in India have to be made in shorter lengths ( 40m) and so more welds and so these welds can give way or rupture due to things like temperature variations like the Ghoti derailment:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 572943.cms

This is winter of 2011-2012( Jan 2012) not a blazing Indian summer and it is Nashik not the Rajasthan desert and yet cracks happen.

Bad welds have been found to be a culprit for a large number of accidents:

http://wiki.iricen.gov.in/doku/lib/exe/ ... essons.pdf

Material problems can also involve the rolling stock like in the recent Andheri derailment where even a defence establishment has been implicated:

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-we ... ns-2127378

The good news is both the DFCC segments, Eastern and Western will have industry standard 260m rails,
I read somewhere these rails will come from Japan, maybe so as Western DFCC is JICA financed. I have said before giving links, pictures etc. Harsco corp machines which have the ability of laying 1.5 km of rail a day will do the laying of rails on the DFCC. IR manages 200m of rail a day manually. Again to repeat, two Harsco machines are already in India and 2 or 3 are being fabricated in the US for shipment to India.
Here again:
http://www.harscorail.com/equipment/tra ... ction.html

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Sep 2015 22:07

That was envisaged and in railway engines, EMUs, Diesel or electrical engines , there is a lever called "Dead man's Lever" or Switch. By 2010 these have been phased out. No alternative is provided in its place.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 30 Sep 2015 22:18

What if the driver keeps on pressing dead man's lever while talking to phone?

I propose a "hit the beaver" game for the driver to keep him focused

The beaver of course acts as dead man's lever

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 30 Sep 2015 22:22

vsunder wrote:Existing tracks can only carry 22.5 tonne axle loads due to blanketing issues arising from history when tracks were first laid. The DFC is meant to carry 32.5 tonne axle loads( which are industry standards in US, Europe and Russia) though at the start they will start with 27.5 tonne axle loads.

vsundar,

I thought that Lallu had increased the axle load to 25t. Did that go away at some point. In the early stages if they use 27.5 ton how will say, the coal traffic transfer from IR system to DFCIL or vice versa without requiring in transit modifications.
-----

Sachin saar,

Thanks...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Sep 2015 22:43

Picklu wrote:What if the driver keeps on pressing dead man's lever while talking to phone?

I propose a "hit the beaver" game for the driver to keep him focused

The beaver of course acts as dead man's lever

If you are unlucky enough you will die in oddest of circumstances.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 30 Sep 2015 23:30

Theo: Lallu said many things. But 22.8 tonnes is it, system wide on IR. The DFCC was to be 25 tonne axle loads at the outset, but 32.5 tonnes is what they plan for. Look at the foreword and preface here:
http://www.rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... e/0014.pdf
Document above is dated November 2009, after Lallu, so nothing really happened.

I think you might have remembered the 25t for DFCC, but of course that is being superseded, they are really going for more here. Here is an article on Tata and the Khurja-Bhaupur section of the EDFC, axle loads are mentioned again exactly as in the document above so multiple sources, very good confirmation !!!

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 257_1.html

I understand what you write about the coal issue. I really do not know. My impression is
that either they build special sidings or DFCC will have max loads 32.5 tonnes for container traffic to ports. Perhaps they use 22.8 tonne loads for coal which will have to travel on branch lines anyways to go to the thermal plants in the North. Also in the RDSO document linked above in the foreword, there is a statement
" feeder routes are going to be strengthened to 25t axle loads". I have not seen anything to back this claim up.
Another point is that I stated above is that Western DFC will have double decker container traffic. So the pantos
of the electrics will reach much higher and they have to raise the ROBs along the way. The western DFCC alignment
is more west of the current Delhi-Mumbai route, passing through Marwar Jn, remember my quip in the post about Sean Connery who played Daniel Dravot in Man who would be King and who Kipling has to meet at Marwar Jn. as advised by Peachey Carnehan( Michael Caine) who he meets on the night train to Ajmer was it?
The western DFCC line will be even slightly west of Ahmedabad and then curve and follow the current alignment after Vadodara.
Branch off between Vasai Rd( the old Bassein) and Panvel for JNPT. Bridges across the Tapti and Narmada have been recently tendered. There is a lot of work going on between Navsari and Vasai less beyond Navsari and supposedly activity between Iqbalgarh and Rewari. The schedule is as follows:

Eastern Dedicated Freight Corridor

1. Durgwati-Sasaram( all in Bihar, my old post said this is fitting, Sher Shah Suri of GT road fame is buried in a massive mausoleum in Sasaram) March 2016, 56km.

2. Mughalsarai(UP) -Son Nagar(Bihar), by 2017.( 118 km), Durgawati-Sasaram, #1 above, to be opened in March 2016 is a part of this segment

Above two financed by Railway budget. Rest is JICA and World Bank and #3 below unknown.

3. Dankuni(WB) to Son Nagar( on the River Son/e),(540 km) not funded and not tendered, PPP model is the hope. Govt has been trying in various degrees of urgency since MMS days.

Next sections are all World Bank funded.

4. Khurja-Bhaupur( outside Kanpur)( both in UP) March 2018, lot of activity seen 343 km

5. Bhaupur(Kanpur)-Mughalsarai, Dec 2018.( 402 km)

6. Ludhiana-Khurja ( 404 km) This section will only be single lined due to Land acquisition issues.

All other DFCC sections will be double lined and Western DFCC even able to take double decker container traffic, see above.

Western Dedicated Freight Corridor

Totally funded by JICA

1. Rewari-Iqbalgarh, June 2018

2. Iqbalgarh-Vadodara, March 2019

3. Vadodara-Sachin( near Surat)(163 km)

4. Sachin-Vasai Rd-JNPT( 265 km)

Rewari-Vadodara ( 950km)

Now if people say other things like 2018 finish that is a tough deadline for construction on DFCC, even the Government is not sanguine and states a possible deadline in 2019 and with Dankuni-Son Nagar not even funded even more time will elapse as there are more land issues in WB and Bihar that will have to be resolved.

1042 court cases, 3391 arbitration cases pending even Dec 2019 seems far fetched. PIB news release from July 2015, posted again:

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/efeatures.aspx?relid=123276

An article by Binoo Nair on the Western DFCC and the Surat-JNPT stretch. It has not been completely tendered due to environmental clearances of Mangroves at Dahanu Road, which have now been obtained:( again mentions a 2019 date) people have seen minor bridges being constructed, but no fanbois video I can link here, also remember the alignments may not always be completely be next to existing alignments, though very plausible they are in this high density population areas.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ra ... ck-2067083

Binoo Nair seems to do a lot of legwork and is knowledgeable of IR in the Mumbai area.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Oct 2015 05:02

The DFCC stations/trans-shipment points will be 35-40km apart. So on the Khurja Jn( near Delhi)-Bhaupur( near Kanpur) section, 10 stations are planned. Out of these 10, 4 will be connected to the IR network. Here is a video of the blanketing work and roadbed work approaching Shikohabad( after Dara Shikoh), between Delhi and Kanpur. This route I know only too well. There is no major river, flat terrain, no major river since you are in the Doab, land between the two rivers, to the North is the Ganga and Kannauj and to the South the Yamuna and the Bundelkhand ravines favoured by dacoits like Man Singh, Phoolan Devi etc. From Shikohabad, Bhaupur(Kanpur) is 160km or thereabouts via, Etawah, and Phaphund. All flat country. This is part of the Eastern DFC. The train is running at 120kmph by counting traction poles, 14-16 to a km. So this is about 10-15 km of video. The construction peters out as you enter Shikohabad and there seems to be a traction sub-station at Shikohabad that has to be moved. HT wires also come in the way in spots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f2P1yYq9os&app=desktop

The tough section will be the Gurpa-Gujhandi section on the Grand Chord, negotiating the Hills of Chhota-Nagpur and there may be some tunnels. There are tunnels on the Grand Chord, a few maybe two or three.
But this part lies between Son Nagar and Dankuni which is unfunded.

member_29001 · Post by **member_29001** » 01 Oct 2015 05:58

Will the western DFC be having links to Kandla and Mundra ports?

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Oct 2015 06:31

ysnarayanan_brf wrote:Will the western DFC be having links to Kandla and Mundra ports?

No. As I said Western DFCC will loop west of Ahmedabad, the loop starts from Kalol, Northwest of Ahmedabad, Sanand west of Ahmedabad, Kheda Rd, South of Ahmedabad and then Nadiad, south east of Ahmedabad and then head out to West of Vadodara. Here the alignment is away from the existing alignment and population centers and West of the existing IR track. At Sanjali, south of Ankleswar, DFCC will cut the existing Mumbai-Delhi IR track and keep running East of the existing IR alignment till between Vasai and Panvel, cut the existing alignment and then head out to JNPT.

A logistics center for trans-shipment is planned at Gandhidham in Kutch, and in the Ahmedabad area and at Vapi in South Gujarat. Maybe in the future the DFCC will connect to Kandla and other ports. The terminology of connection is misleading. There could be connections but the point is are these feeder lines capable of taking high axle loads, are electrified and can take double stacked containers and so take full advantage of the DFCC architecture. Otherwise it is like riding a bicycle on an expressway. So maybe rakes
will be brought to an interchange point and then moved. Short answer is there is no DFCC type high load link with Kandla envisaged for the moment.

From Marwar Jn ---> Palanpur---> Mehsana it will run East of the current alignment and then cut the existing alignment at Mehsana and start the loop around Ahmedabad to the west of the city. My curiosity is to see how they are going to address these cut points with IR tracks with double stacked containers, etc etc.

The main terrain issues the Western DFCC faces are the bridges across the Tapti and Narbada. I have never traveled on the Marwar Jn to Ahmedabad line but East of it I have travelled on Paschim express and Frontier Mail through the Aravallis, Delhi-Mumbai, via Ratlam and Sawai-Madhopur and there is the famous Dara pass on the old Western Railway. I do not know the terrain
west of this, never seen it. But this is the Dara pass in the Aravallis:( enjoy if you have not gone through it, well, just like if you have not seen sunrise over Chilka lake in Orissa while cruising in Howrah mail, well then you need to see India man!) so do the Aravallis stretch west too and how severe is the terrain, does it need a Darra style viaduct for the DFCC and/or tunnels? My guess is no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbfiNs0QNBI

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 01 Oct 2015 07:36

Thank you, vsundar sir for the detailed answer...

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Oct 2015 08:49

chaanakya wrote:That was envisaged and in railway engines, EMUs, Diesel or electrical engines , there is a lever called "Dead man's Lever" or Switch. By 2010 these have been phased out.

Thanks. So at present there is no way a loco can be brought to a halt if there is only one motor-man in the cabin and he is incapacitated to stop the train. In case of regular goods/passenger trains, the assistant driver is to bring the loco to a halt. In that case I feel, human error would be a "single point of failure". In UK, if I get it right there is a system which gives an audio/visual indication when a train crosses a signal at its "restrictive" aspect. The driver has to acknowledge it, and if that does not happen the train comes to a halt. Such a system, I guess was introduced way back in the late 1960s or early 1970s.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Oct 2015 09:17

Sachin wrote:IR's safety rules instruct that the drivers are not supposed to use mobile phones while on duty. This was brought in after an EMU in Chennai shot two danger signals and rammed a stationary train. The driver was found to be talking away on his cell phone.

Yes, now it is a loss-of-job offence if a loco inspector comes across a switched on mobile. I remember reading something to this effect on IRFCA from a person who I am sure knew what he was talking about

.

SaiK wrote:then we have to look at what is happening in the car world! traffic sense and automatic braking systems. the question of large brings in economies of scale which is good. cost will go, but so is the case of the problem. we are huge - 1.2b, and we cannot be compared on the size and relax on security.

I don't understand why we keep telling ourselves, India it is not possible. it is too big! people are corrupt. this is exactly Modi ji is trying to get off from.

Traffic sense certainly exists on IR. Sachin saar's example showed the driver was fired and safety rules tweaked. One thing loco pilots do everything they can to avoid: SPAD (signal pass at danger, which, in IR parlance means red). It does not happen. If it does, then the driver can be fired, or demoted at the very least.

You also mentioned auto-brake systems. They exist on IR, though not at the desired scale. Konkan Railways developed a system called anti-collision device (ACD)/Suraksha Kavach. It runs a beacon in each loco and applies brakes automatically if it senses a train on the same track (proximity alert from the other loco's beacon). As far as I can remember, most diesels based out of Erode and Ernakulam were fitted with these devices, and only they will run on Konkan Railways. You can see such locos with the words "ACD fitted" under the driver's window. The initial version of the ACD was meant for single line sections to prevent head on collisions. Hence after KR, North Frontier Railway was supposed to deploy this system, and some Siliguri diesels were supposed to be fitted with ACD. Not sure of latest status. Then the next step was to link the ACD with the level crossing gates to ensure the train does not approach an open gate. This is a good to have, since LC gates are usually interlocked with a danger signal, so they are usually protected. Most LC accidents happen at unmanned crossings. Lastly, ACD in its current form is not very effective in double-line sections, since it is based on a proximity warning logic and cannot distinguish between oncoming trains on the same track and the parallel track. For multi-line sections, some form of track circuiting is needed.

Track circuiting exists in many automatic block sections, the most famous being the Mumbai suburban section equipped with Train Protection Warning System (TPWS). Both CR and WR have deployed this (I believe Chennai also has this to an extent). This is a proper track circuiting system with proximity warnings, and perhaps auto-brakes. Needless to say, this system is expensive, as it is built by Siemens or some such Euro corp. Deploying this pan-IR is not feasible given current economic realities. Perhaps a 'Make in India' contest between universities, funded by IR and GoI, might help developing a cheaper desi system we can deploy throughout. Definitely doable, just requires the push. There were some efforts in the past, but they weren't pursued to the level needed.

A word on in-cab warnings and safety. The EMU incident Sachin saar mentioned, while being a one-off, exposes the problems with EMUs. A single motorman drives it, and requires the guard to be alert. This is easier said than done (think rain, storm, etc.), so the motorman is the sword edge. Regular locos are better: apart from the guard, there are 2 crew in the loco. The assistant LP's job is to call out all signals, caution boards (think neutral sections, etc.) aloud, and the LP concurs and does what's needed. The ALP takes care of other auxiliary stuff like signalling passing trains/stations (flag/LED), monitoring the wireless, etc., leaving the LP to focus on the task at hand. This option of an extra pair of eyes is not available to the motorman, so she/he needs to be more alert and careful.

Lastly, I vaguely remember there is a buzzer type system on some locos, which will alert periodically and the LP has to press to turn off within a specified duration to indicate that he is alert, or the loco will apply brakes. Not sure what it was called - perhaps vsunder/Sachin saars might know what this is? Then the WAP-4 and newer locos have the speed chart plotted, so over-speeds are caught and deterred.

In summary, there are a lot of safety related procedures, and they work well for the most part. Most railway accidents we hear of happen due to rail-related issues. Having said that, human error is something we cannot engineer out of the system (that Spanish high speed rail disaster happened due to human error - the train approached a curve at twice the designed speed), and the best way is to have good training, periodic re-training, and sustained focus on redundant safety checks. IR does a good job on these, only thing missing is the TPWS - it needs to be built using local know how and deployed throughout IR - then this issue will be addressed to the greatest possible extent.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Oct 2015 09:23

Sachin wrote:
chaanakya wrote:That was envisaged and in railway engines, EMUs, Diesel or electrical engines , there is a lever called "Dead man's Lever" or Switch. By 2010 these have been phased out.
Thanks. So at present there is no way a loco can be brought to a halt if there is only one motor-man in the cabin and he is incapacitated to stop the train. In case of regular goods/passenger trains, the assistant driver is to bring the loco to a halt. In that case I feel, human error would be a "single point of failure". In UK, if I get it right there is a system which gives an audio/visual indication when a train crosses a signal at its "restrictive" aspect. The driver has to acknowledge it, and if that does not happen the train comes to a halt. Such a system, I guess was introduced way back in the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Are you guys sure about this? AFAIK, dead man's lever exists in EMUs; EMUs being driven by single motormen should have a dead-man's lever for extra safety.

As for locos, I thought even the newer WAP-7 locos have some kind of dead-man's switch? I had asked about this in the penultimate para of my previous post.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 01 Oct 2015 09:37

May be in some, but phased out in non local trains. Instead it is VCD in newer class of locomotives and old ones are being retrofitted.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 01 Oct 2015 13:16

arshyam wrote:As far as I can remember, most diesels based out of Erode and Ernakulam were fitted with these devices, and only they will run on Konkan Railways. You can see such locos with the words "ACD fitted" under the driver's window

Had spoken about this with a driver who was working the ERS based diesel locos. He said that even this device was not all that fool proof. And in many cases the loco inspectors advised the drivers to switch of the device (it was possible to do so). One problem with the device - he said - was that at times ACD does a forcible braking, with the drivers not having any control. The example he gave was that of a cow crossing a track (which is common in some areas). As soon as the beacon detects an "obstruction" it just gives the alarm and applies the brake. The obstructing cow would just move on (unless it has suicidal tendencies), but the train would come to a halt. And it may halt in such areas where there is no protecting signal at the rear (for example right in between a Distant Signal & Home Signal). That is a risky thing to happen, as there could be another train coming from the rear, and it does not even see one red signal before the driver sights a station train ahead.

Came back to say: Such a condition (of a train stopping at an unsafe location) can also happen in the case of Alarm Chain Pull. But there I guess it is assumed to be a serious case of alarm, and the driver and guards have detailed instructions on what to do to protect the train.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 01 Oct 2015 14:08

A logistics center for trans-shipment is planned at Gandhidham in Kutch

I believe this is the reason why IR is planning to set up one of the two loco sheds for HHP 4500 & 6000 HP diesel locos (from GE/EMD) at Gandhidham. the other I believe is being planned at Bhatinda in Punjab

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Oct 2015 16:54

There you go, confirmation of what I said above. Bhilai plant makes rails in 80m sections in a plant that was opened in 2004. This plant has processes in place that keeps hydrogen content in the steel at < 2ppm to prevent hydrogen embrittlement as linked above. The rails have density of 60kg/m which we know is the density of rails on Class A lines and many Class B lines with heavy traffic like Chennai-Bangalore. Bhilai plant is the only plant making steel rails for IR. The article states that welded panels of 260m rails "can" be made at Bhilai. But it is unclear if IR uses such panels, maybe they do as we have the powerpoint presentation above on delivery issues for 260m rail panels. I have read somewhere that the 260m rails for Western DFC will come from Japan, must be the JICA clause, since they are funding Western DFC, but this bears checking.

http://www.thehindu.com/biz/2004/05/24/ ... 381600.htm

Some other videos, ballast dumping on IR a video on the Yellahanka-Chennasandra new double line

:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaiFt5Qn4s

A Harsco machine for track linking. It lays 1.5km of track a day and needs just 5 operators. Such machines are called NTC ( New Track Construction) machines. 4 of them will lay the tracks on the DFC. Two are at work and 2 more are being fabricated in the US to be shipped to India soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6VYuw52z-0

With all that sophistication, watch the guy using a plumbline and thread to keep the huge machine centered

Added later: Yes the 260m rails on DFC ain't coming from Bhilai, it is Japani maal. I was not dreaming, true, true, true

http://www.railway-technology.com/news/ ... ia-4653068

Also I was wrong about Western DFC. Because of the double stacked containers on Western DFC that I pointed out, the traction will be completely Diesel on Western DFC and Electric on eastern DFC. There will be a 4km tunnel on Western DFC. This is going to be very interesting with the double stacked containers, lot of clearance needed. It must be the Aravallis extend far enough west to warrant this.
Absolute block between Ludhiana and Khurja and signals 2km apart on the entire system. Ludhiana-Khurja is single lined electric as I mentioned before.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 Oct 2015 19:00

@vsunder

From your posts it is clear that the DFCs will not be ready even probably by 2019. Are there any benefits that can accrue from partial completion of section e.g. are they linked to the regular rail corridor? I was wondering if the non-freight trains can be speeded up in the interim using the finished sections and reduce travel time in the interim i.e. before a final shift to the new tlines.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 01 Oct 2015 19:40

Supratik wrote:@vsunder

From your posts it is clear that the DFCs will not be ready even probably by 2019. Are there any benefits that can accrue from partial completion of section e.g. are they linked to the regular rail corridor? I was wondering if the non-freight trains can be speeded up in the interim using the finished sections and reduce travel time in the interim i.e. before a final shift to the new tlines.

Let us take the Khurja-Kanpur/Bhaupur section. It has 4 places where the lines connect to IR tracks. The current IR tracks are saturated. There is I believe a third line from Delhi to Aligarh. Suppose this section is commissioned, now in principle we have 4 lines upto Kanpur from Delhi and even 5 lines upto Aligarh. Let us say IR runs coal rakes on the DFC lines and also other types of bulk cargo. That is already massive capacity augmentation for 350km. Existing lines can also have significant downtime, for track renewal and refurbishment and maintenance. The audacity here for the DFC is that one is essentially laying quadruple lines in one shot over a significant part of the network. In comparison the IR policy is triple and quadruple in small segments. Bina-Bhopal 139km, etc etc that we discussed above. Here it is one shot. So even as the sections open
there will be significant gains. Now if you have the stomach and want to read a 188 page report, here it is.
It analyses all the pros and cons of having one DFC and not the other, just Western and just Eastern as opposed to both. Single stack container as opposed to Double stack containers, diesel and single stack, electric and double stack etc etc. It is the original report to MMS in 2007. You can see there that your question is answered. Even partial opening has significant advantages. Note even then the Dankuni-Son Nagar section is unfunded. Sad that 10 years later we have not moved, but at least in many areas there is a sense of gravitas and things are moving. There are fanbois videos of lots of activity between Palghar-->Boisar --->Navsari on western DFC. Fanbois are really concentrating on other things, but watch carefully ever so often a completed minor bridge flashes past on the right and yes it is exactly where I said we should find it, East of the current IR alignment. Why do these fanbois not watch for the forest instead of looking at trees

? See one day we will say on BR we saw the progress of DFC. Okay here is the report:

http://www.qca.org.au/getattachment/062 ... f-Ded.aspx

DSC in the report refers to Double Stacked Container, SSC is Single Stack Container.

Question why does an Australian web site host this Goi document?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 Oct 2015 20:27

Thats good news even if only some sections open.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 Oct 2015 21:02

Shortlisted bidders for trainsets.

Alstom-BEML
CAF-Bombardier
Hitachi-AnsaldoBreda
Kawasaki-Toshiba-BHEL
Siemens

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 02 Oct 2015 19:31

Now I am very confused. I see many reports of Electrics on Western DFCC with of course very long pantos to handle the Double stacked containers. Some people even state that these long panto electrics have been trialled by IR and hold it up as an instance of jugaad. Well so we will have to see, long panto electrics or diesel on western DFCC. For sure they will have double stacked containers on Western DFCC.

In the Vibrant Gujarat summit, DFCC had a booth and they displayed pictures of the alignments in the booths. It is exactly what I have described above for Western DFCC. For the EDFC, the alignment runs South of the current IR alignment, cuts the IR tracks near Shikohabad for a small loop, by running North of the IR tracks for about 30km cuts the IR tracks again well before Kanpur( if it did not, hehehe it will be in the drink of the Ganga at Bithur opposite IIT Cawnpore) and maintains this alignment south of existing IR tracks all the way to Son Nagar( Bihar). Beyond Son Nagar to Dankuni(WB) I will not hazard a guess. Let it be funded first and then tendered.

Regarding Kanpur I am not sure if the alignment of DFC passes through the massive Juhi marshalling yard,
or avoids this and passes through Kanpur dehat( yes that is a taluk and has that name,

), then that would entail a bridge over the IR line to Bhimsen and Jhansi. GMR has just been awarded the contract for this section, Kanpur-Mughalsarai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanpur_Dehat_district

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Oct 2015 05:46

I remember vaguely that the Japanese insisted on electric traction since they were funding the WDFCC, and their railways/companies have good electric tech. And that IR was setting up a separate electric loco assembly plant to make Hitachi (?) locos. Posting from phone, will look for and share a source for this later.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 03 Oct 2015 08:11

People here might remember my rant about water water everywhere IR toilet after my family trip last year. I raised this in PMO India and yesterday got a mail that stating

Dear Sir/Madam,

Your Grievance with Registration No.PMOPG/W/2015/XXXXXXXXXX has been disposed.
Logon to : http://pgportal.gov.in/ for further details.

So, here are the details on the website

Registration Number : PMOPG/W/2015/XXXXXXXX
Name Of Complainant : XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Date of Receipt : 18 Aug 2014
Received by : Prime Ministers Office
Forwarded to : Executive Director ME Coaching
Contact Address : Railway Board
Rail Bhavan
Contact Number : 23381475
Grievance Description : water-sanitation: Sir, my recent travel on Indian Railway after a long time gave me the following thought. The airlines toilets are always much cleaner than railway toilets even though the number of passengers in a railway bogey is much less than number of people in a plane. The reason I believe is that they have gone for waterless or less water model of toilet and use vacuum force to evacuate the dirt as well as control the smell. We should adopt the same for all public toilets including IR ones.
Current Status : CASE CLOSED
Date of Action : 01 Oct 2015
Details : Ministry of Railways is already actively working on solving the problem of preventing direct discharges of human waste on the tracks. Bio-toilets have been designed by Indian Railways and are fitted under the passenger coaches to collect the human waste from the toilets and prevent it from falling directly on the track and platforms. These Bio-toilets convert human waste into water and small quantity of harmless gases before discharging out the water and gases. As on date, more than 19500 Bio-toilets have been fitted in about 7000 coaches and this Ministry is committed to proliferating such environment-friendly toilets in all coaches by 2021-22.