BR Forums Feedback

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BijuShet
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby BijuShet » 31 Dec 2009 00:00

BijuShet wrote:RayC would it be correct on my part to assume that you consider the man who stands post for his country as more patriotic than the one who does not?
RayC wrote:Yes.

It need not be at the border.

Since we are posting our inner thoughts today let me continue.

I consider all Indians as patriotic unless they have acted against the interests of mother India. When you measure an Indian's patriotism that itself is divisive. We, the people, recognize courage, patriotism and selfless service to the nation in the form of awards for bravery and service to the nation. These awards are presented to military and civilians alike by the elected representative of Govt of India. I agree that not all feats are recognized and courage such as shown by Munna's family will only get a silent salute from all of us.

Please recognize that serving in the military is a privilege and an honor not available to all Indians due to economic hardship or physical inadequacy. It can also be due to ones own failure in qualifying for admission to the forces. OTOH, the option to be recognized as an Indian requires no merit other than those specified by Indian citizenship laws. By serving in uniform you have had the privilege and honor of calling yourself a soldier for India but that does not make you a better patriot or more Indian than the rest of us. Your service in your own words has been recognized by Govt of India by the various medals and for that you have our eternal gratitude. But that service alone does not bestow on you more intellect to decide what is good for India either. We take offense to that particular line of logic shown by you many times in your posts.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby negi » 31 Dec 2009 00:00

RayC wrote:
ldev wrote:True. We are in Bharat-Rakshak forum, not a RSS shakha isnt it?



Who knows?

I am sure it isn't, but some are trying hard to make it the Bajrang Dal!



Ok lets have the names of RSS /Bajrang Dal rakshaks out for a start how many amongst the members fall under this category ? I am really curious to know how many members in a forum does it take to brand a forum under a particular ideology ?

Please take your time. :wink:

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 00:00

ldev wrote:RahulM,

Are you going to disallow discussions about Muslim?
{rephrase please. I can't make head or tail of the current question. I think ex-Prez APJ Abdul Kalam was a muslim and we have discussed him a lot.}
Are you going to ban references to EJs?
{as long as it doesn't become against members of a community as a whole, no. }

Are you going to ensure that discussions about Indian culture, history etc. do not gradually start extolling the virtues of Hindu supremacy?
{yes, I'm going to ensure that, with the able help of vigilant members like you ! in fact I distinctly remember that we have 'moderated' a number of people in one such thread, the epics and ancient texts thread.}

I dont know how long you have been a member. But the BRF I joined in November 2002 is not the BRF of today. {nothing today is as it was in 2002, neither India, nor BRF or even you or I. I am a member for as long as it says in my profile but I've been a lurker since 2000} The impression one has is that it is today sympathatic to the RSS cause?
{that is your view, it may or may not be correct. your view is not based upon any data and I am free to disagree with your view. in fact I do.} And that is why you have a preponderance of members with that viewpoint. {find and recruit anti-RSS BRFites who can otherwise stay within the boundaries ! all power to you !} Now you may claim that it is not your responsibility to ensure that you have members with all viewpoints in equal numbers. {correct, it is not} But if the majority of moderators on BRF support the RSS viewpoint, {strawman argument. you have no evidence that majority of BRF moderators support RSS or whatever. in fact, all evidence that I know of points to the opposite.} then you will naturally have more RSS sympathizers gravitating towards BRF because they know that they have sympathetic moderation {here is a perfect example of insinuation under innocuous wording. you are accusing moderators of biased moderation which is a patent lie AFA I'm concerned.} and other members leaving. That has what has happened in BRF over the last few years. For you to claim that you cannot do anything about it and tough luck is for you have to your neck up the proverbial space where you cannot see anything. You and the others in the moderator team collectively can influence the kind of members who join BRF. Clearly the moderator team as a whole was sympathatic to the RSS in the last few years and hence the current composition of members. {the rest of this is simply a continuation of that false and patently untruth allegation. I won't reply to it this time but if you want to continue this line of argument I will expect you to come up with evidence that mods have indeed indulged in what you allege. IOW, they were aware of what of what was happening and took the wrong step/didn't take a step. } Now with Brig RayC dissenting and maybe some other moderators also dissenting, it is clear that there is a division. {you have no idea what division or why. if you blindly believe what you want to believe that is your problem, not mine. I can only tell you that the truth has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what ray sir says about hindutva or whatever. you are free to believe otherwise.}

You can tell me and other members as to which direction you and the moderating team propose taking BRF in the future. That will let me decide if I can support you in your efforts or not.{I cannot tell you for there is no particular 'direction' the mod team wants to take BRF in the future, AFAIK from the older mods, there never was such a particular 'direction'.
BR will take whatever course it takes due to its members, mods will be part of it as members only. as moderators their only job is to ensure the lines I indicated earlier and some others (like copyright) are not violated}

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Dec 2009 00:03

Is the RSS some type of a criminal organization that empathizing with its goals and/or its aims is anathema. If not, what is this endeavor by ldev to say make it clear if you are with RSS or not!

To a larger point, is RSS the be all and end of Indian Hindus? Am I allowed to have views, which transcend over and beyond what RSS seeks to do.

What ldev seeks is Sunil Saini's active thought control and the active banning of anyone not adhering to a certain thought and seek to be a mouth piece for the position of the GoI, without criticism. The forum rejected that approach and hence Sunil Saini became "maverick". I hope the forum does not regress to those days.

IMHO: The only way to moderate is to ask members to not get personal and stick to the arguments, backed by reason and facts (no mean feat), to the extent possible. All other attempts are likely to fail, as evidenced in the annual brohua on the forum, on the issue of religion and politics. Also, moderators should know their leanings and beliefs, to participate in discussions and then claim non-leanings, will look hypocritical, even if true. Beyond that it is asking moderators to be robots with no leanings on any issue.

Also, if "the majority" of the view points of members have so called RSS leanings (I will dispute this), then does it not tell the forum something?

It will take a learned and wise mind to take a position on this issue. A task, that I do not envy. It will be easy to do a cleanup ban/warn and say, read the fricking guidelines – no discussion on religion and politics….moderator decides, etc. The issue will come back, is the only guarantee.

Also, before we ask moderators to allow such discussions, are the members "mature" enough to stop the name calling and personal attacks on all sides, to ask for discussions on religion and politics. It seems not - from the above.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 00:04

negi wrote:[
ldev wrote:True. We are in Bharat-Rakshak forum, not a RSS shakha isnt it?



Who knows?

I am sure it isn't, but some are trying hard to make it the Bajrang Dal!



Ok lets have the names of RSS /Bajrang Dal rakshaks out for a start how many amongst the members fall under this category ? I am really curious to know how many members in a forum does it take to brand a forum under a particular ideology ?

Please take your time. :wink:[/quote]

I know you personally and you are an intelligent chap I don't think you require guidance.

Why don't you check your Naval background and see if there was a hassle!

ldev
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 00:07

RahulM,

I am going to be blunt with you. If somebody like BRaman says that BRF has become a right wing site, does not that say something to you? Why are you still splitting hair with this long rebuttal of yours? We can argue till kingdom come.

I would love to have somebody like JEM have his say on this.

Virupaksha
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Dec 2009 00:09

RayC wrote:Get us expelled!

Why in the hell would I want to :eek:

This is a internet fora for Gods sake. Understand how the dynamics work.

I have absolutely no connection with BJP nor RSS. Infact the closest political person whom I have decent interaction with was in the congress. This is a defence fora, which itself means it will attract those with views interested in guns and so on and will definitely repel the peaceniks. Add the fact that only the well educated people can be part of this fora.

You are NOT looking at a representative India by any chance. Trying to get this to represent India in all its shades and colours is a losing enterprise from the get go. Is anyone going to reserve 12% of posters to muslims, x% to christians/north east and also make sure that they will post exactly in the exact quantum of posts and then control the length of posts. What idiocy is this?

This is a internet fora not the actual ground.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Dec 2009 00:13

ldev wrote:RahulM,

I am going to be blunt with you. If somebody like BRaman says that BRF has become a right wing site, does not that say something to you? Why are you still splitting hair with this long rebuttal of yours? We can argue till kingdom come.

I would love to have somebody like JEM have his say on this.

Idev,

This argument was there immediately BRaman said that and it hastened up death of many threads. caused the creation of the burkha forum and so on. BRf has reacted to that criticism by trying to hide those non-PC.

and what is wrong with being right wing? Though I often wonder what is right wing and left wing wrt India - can you define them for me? Why should BRf be afraid of some random labels?

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby munna » 31 Dec 2009 00:13

ShauryaT wrote:Is the RSS some type of a criminal organization that empathizing with its goals and/or its aims is anathema. If not, what is this endeavor by ldev to say make it clear if you are with RSS or not!


Yup this is a question I too wonder about! If people are so worked up about this organization and use it as some sort of a "Thief's Branding" to malign any dissenter of GOI's line then please get it banned. FYI RSS has been banned thrice and all the times the basis of ban was thrown out by the courts. They are there and pull a huge punch in our national polity and they will be there for times to come. An organization backed by 20% of Elctoral Seats in National Parliament cannot be swept away, brushed under the carpet and denounced because some intellectuals/GOI pointsmen feel like it. Similarly an elected PM of India cannot be called uncalled for names by some loose tongued posters. Indian right is a political and constitutional reality just as we have to deal with others they will be there too.

Hence the composition of posters here will keep falling on the right or the wrong side of the GOI and there is not need to take our orders from GOI.
Last edited by munna on 31 Dec 2009 00:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RamaY » 31 Dec 2009 00:15

ldev wrote:RahulM,

I am going to be blunt with you. If somebody like BRaman says that BRF has become a right wing site, does not that say something to you? Why are you still splitting hair with this long rebuttal of yours? We can argue till kingdom come.

I would love to have somebody like JEM have his say on this.


I would like BRaman garu come to BRF and present his reasoning, if possible.

In the meantime please read a bit before calling someone something. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics} :evil:

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 00:16

ShauryaT wrote:Is the RSS some type of a criminal organization that empathizing with its goals and/or its aims is anathema. If not, what is this endeavor by ldev to say make it clear if you are with RSS or not!


No RSS is not a criminal organisation.

They do great service by making people physicall fit with their morning PT!

But when they preach division in society, that is reprehensible. I don't blame them. It is but a reaction to appeasement. But we are better than them. We should show restraint and win over the people by exposing the fraud perpetuated by pseudo secularists!

To a larger point, is RSS the be all and end of Indian Hindus? Am I allowed to have views, which transcend over and beyond what RSS seeks to do.


Hindusim is beyond RSS. It can never be extinguished. Our history bear proof! I am not afraid of external forces at work. We shall never be overcomed!

What ldev seeks is Sunil Saini's active thought control and the active banning of anyone not adhering to a certain thought and seek to be a mouth piece for the position of the GoI, without criticism. The forum rejected that approach and hence Sunil Saini became "maverick". I hope the forum does not regress to those days.


No idea what he did. I would hardly agree that BRF was every a GOI mouthpiece!

IMHO: The only way to moderate is to ask members to not get personal and stick to the arguments, backed by reason and facts (no mean feat), to the extent possible. All other attempts are likely to fail, as evidenced in the annual brohua on the forum, on the issue of religion and politics. Also, moderators should know their leanings and beliefs, to participate in discussions and then claim non-leanings, will look hypocritical, even if true. Beyond that it is asking moderators to be robots with no leanings on any issue.

Also, if "the majority" of the view points of members have so called RSS leanings (I will dispute this), then does it not tell the forum something?

It will take a learned and wise mind to take a position on this issue. A task, that I do not envy. It will be easy to do a cleanup ban/warn and say, read the fricking guidelines – no discussion on religion and politics….moderator decides, etc. The issue will come back, is the only guarantee.


I was a Moderater, but it is a tough call.


Also, before we ask moderators to allow such discussions, are the members "mature" enough to stop the name calling and personal attacks on all sides, to ask for discussions on religion and politics. It seems not - from the above.



Good point.

I don't think anyone can answer that!

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 00:17

What ldev seeks is Sunil Saini's active thought control and the active banning of anyone not adhering to a certain thought and seek to be a mouth piece for the position of the GoI, without criticism.


ShauryaT,

I dont know whether you have made the obove quote out of ignorance or malice. But for the record I had one of the biggest confrontations with SunilS before he quit the forum. Part of that confrontation was implicitly based on the thought police undertones.

And I thought this forum was going to get salvation!! Little did I realize that it would be hijacked by right wing idealogues.

But I have made my peace with SunilS and today respect him for other areas. One need not agree with a person in every area not to respect him/her.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 00:18

I have absolutely no connection with BJP nor RSS.


Raviku,

Guess what?

I have!

Funny, right?

Ldev,

I just hope that all the problems that secularist Mods like N3 and I have had with the RSS fanboys in the Mod Panel (though they have won! And yet I won't say I was picture perfect either!) will tone down Bchappati and his Jupiters eight moons.

BRF is a very informative and educative forum and I wish it to be that and not become another adjunct to a political and religious ideology.

Let us hope and pray that Jagan, a sane one around here, can ensure it!

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby SwamyG » 31 Dec 2009 00:34

Moderators:
Recently I have started posting Japan centric news item in the geopolitical thread. I see there is a India & Japan news thread, but my focus has been the happenings of Japan. Do you think it is appropriate to have a separate thread on Japan. I can promise at least one post on it every month from my side.

I was also thinking of a Myanmar/Burma thread.

Thoughts?

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 00:36

ldev wrote:RahulM,

I am going to be blunt with you. If somebody like BRaman says that BRF has become a right wing site, does not that say something to you?

yes it does. that he is wrong because he hasn't read enough of BR to form a reasonable opinion. if memory serves right during kargil he also said something like "soldiers are paid to die" and implied it was no big deal. I wonder what 'something' that says to you ? surely soldiers are expendable commodity because B Raman says so ?

to me the best test of whether BR compasses are pointed in the right direction is whether the INC supporters can survive or even thrive here. I'll not name them but yes there are a couple I'm aware of who are still going strong on BR. that's all the 'test' I need.

btw, if nationalist==right-wing then yes BR is a right wing forum. I love my country with all its people and I'm not about to apologise for it.
Why are you still splitting hair with this long rebuttal of yours? We can argue till kingdom come.

of course, if you keep on inventing false allegations we might have to do just that. :wink:

I would love to have somebody like JEM have his say on this.

by all means. I would love to have his POV too.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Arjun » 31 Dec 2009 00:36

ldev wrote:
I don't see a problem in talking about EJs, Muslims or any outrage in Hindusim (including caste) etc as long


Then why no discussion about the RSS? Afterall the EJs are to Christianity what the RSS is to Hindusism. And if people (including moderators) can post excerpts from EJ websites, why cannot things be posted from RSS websites?

I personally think discussions on EJ, RSS etc should be allowed as long as there is no derogatory name-calling of forumites ( chaddiwala and suchlike) and the principle of no unwarranted gneralizations is adhered to. I think Archan was trying to actually make policies equal across the religious divide. Note his earlier warning of a few days back where he talked about no offensive posts directed at minorities: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5275&p=794551#p794551

I guess to his earlier list, he was adding posts which would be offensive to Hindus. But personally, I think the policy would be both unenforceable and maybe not really necessary.

But you can't accuse Archan of being biased. Either you take a stance of no discussion on any religious subject (which is what he was leaning towards) or you say religious topics are allowed but no crossing the line to make unwarranted generalizations.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Virupaksha » 31 Dec 2009 00:42

RayC,

Please consider this as my personal feedback to you. You have your ideas, I have mine. The problem with "talking" to you on the fora is this. You take every thing personally. After three or four posts, you do not speak in the realm of ideas, logic or facts. You speak in the realm of "you vs I", "your inconsequential exp vs my fruitful service life", "this is how army functions and therefore the world should function that way" i.e. you go the personal denigration mode and the your nature of not leaving a particular thread. That is, one talks to you about rss and bjp/some such thing in one thread and you bring it up in another thread even though it is not relevant in the second thread.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby nachiket » 31 Dec 2009 00:44

Arjun wrote:.....
I guess to his earlier list, he was adding posts which would be offensive to Hindus. But personally, I think the policy would be both unenforceable and maybe not really necessary.

But you can't accuse Archan of being biased. Either you take a stance of no discussion on any religious subject (which is what he was leaning towards) or you say religious topics are allowed but no crossing the line to make unwarranted generalizations.


Just saying so doesn't ensure that the lines are not actually crossed by posters does it? There has to be active moderation like what archan and the others were doing. I guess some people are of the opinion that discussions religious subjects should be disallowed since things tend to get out of hand pretty often in such cases and its very difficult to keep the discussions clean. And when the mods do edit/delete/warn allegations are sometimes thrown around that the mods are biased. That does not help at all.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Gerard » 31 Dec 2009 00:45

SwamyG wrote:I see there is a India & Japan news thread, but my focus has been the happenings of Japan. Do you think it is appropriate to have a separate thread on Japan.


Why not simply use the existing Japan thread? It is only active sporadically.

I was also thinking of a Myanmar/Burma thread.


We already have a Myanmar/Burma thread...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3997

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Surya » 31 Dec 2009 00:46

Ah the great B Raman is trotted out -

In addition to his "soldiers are paid to die' which saw him get hammered and the thin skinned official he was (a pattern here??) he went away all grumpy.

More recently his tendency to write articles before even the shells are cool has got him into a mess. Ask his fellow babus on his articles and what they think of him.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby BijuShet » 31 Dec 2009 00:53

Can someone elaborate on why the singular opinion of B Raman ( who is no longer active on BRF as per mods) is more important than opinions of other posters who are already here? This site does allow folks to join of their free will and counter any thought/ideas that they disagree with. The report a post feature does allow any posters here to highlight and throw out any offensive posts so why the takleef?

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Chinmayanand » 31 Dec 2009 01:07

RayC wrote:
I have absolutely no connection with BJP nor RSS.


Raviku,

Guess what?

I have!

Funny, right?

Ldev,

I just hope that all the problems that secularist Mods like N3 and I have had with the RSS fanboys in the Mod Panel (though they have won! And yet I won't say I was picture perfect either!) will tone down Bchappati and his Jupiters eight moons.

BRF is a very informative and educative forum and I wish it to be that and not become another adjunct to a political and religious ideology.

Let us hope and pray that Jagan, a sane one around here, can ensure it!


Sir ji, aren't you taking it too far now ? Brihaspati has his own outlook , own vision ,own thoughts.He expresses it so gracefully but look what you are doing.You are just showing your weakness.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 01:14

RayC,

I have had virtually no interaction with Jagan. My faint impression is that he is even handed. Let us hope you are right.

RahulM,

I think your mind is made up. You clearly see nothing wrong with the current moderation policies of BRF. Do an informal poll and find out of those who post on a semi regular basis, how many are INC supporters, how many are Muslims and how many are Christians? And is it reflective of India's population? Find out how many people on BRF who post regularly currently dare to identify themselves as either Muslim or Christian?

Surya,

Fine you may not like BRaman. How about Brig RayC. The point is that I am talking about people who have a public and demonstrated track record of service to the Indian nation. Should not their opinion count regarding a site devoted to the protection of India? Or should it be exclusively the opinion of anonymous internet warriors? While the people who did serve the nation are disdainfully tossed aside?

General:
The whole angst with the RSS is that they are a divisive organization, just like the EJs who proclaim that only those who are "born again" are saved, the others are dammned. India IMO has enough divisive tendencies and encouraging divisive tendencies weakens India. It cannot have more of those. And as a divisive organization the RSS should not and cannot have support or patronage among the moderators and owners of a site such as BR which is ostensibly devoted to the protection of India.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby BijuShet » 31 Dec 2009 01:23

ldevji this is precisely what the fight is about. You assume only people of a particular political/ideological persuasion know what is good for India and/or BRF and that their opinion matters more than others. India and/or BRF is a sum total of all its citizens/posters. So why stop any one group from expressing their opinion. If you feel any group or idea is being sidelined then speak on their behalf and present a counter argument. Your takleef is because you think a resurgent Hindu majority may harm the nation and/or BRF and I disagree with your irrational fear. You take issue with many posts and posters yet how many times did you report a post to the mods when you felt the line was crossed.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby SwamyG » 31 Dec 2009 01:26

Gerard: Sure, I can & will use them.

long ps: I was wondering because the content might not relate or pertain to India; and I remember in the Indo-US thread it is encouraged to post only news/posts related to India.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 01:41

ldev ji, yes my mind is made up. till you/anyone else comes up with some new information it will remain so. BR may have lost a number of minority members, many of them very valuable which makes it a genuine loss but that happened before our times. if you ask me, the primary reason was that the then mod team was too small to handle a growing forum like BR. the fact that some of the mods became busy with their personal lives compounded the problems.
since there have been enough scissor hands to go around I think the situation has improved considerably. a number of older members have since re-appeared which I think is a good sign.

as for the set of baseless allegations made by 'someone' on which you are pinning your arguments, they are simply a set of easy excuses to cover for that someone's brutish behaviour towards postors (of *ALL* hues and colours) who disagreed with him. the allegations are NOT true, not even close. the current tactic is what is called 'victimhood'. of course, some gullible people will believe what they want to and end up on the far side of truth and then proceed to defend that position with gusto. my sympathies are with them.
as for myself, the records are all there (and mods have no edit access to those) to prove what I'm saying. that's good enough for me.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby BijuShet » 31 Dec 2009 01:43

ldevji since you brought RSS to the table let me point out the others you left out are equally divisive. Please read up on post Independence history to see INC, RJD, CPI and all other so called secular parties and their vote bank politics. Dividing the country on caste, religion and class lines is not divisive?

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby hnair » 31 Dec 2009 01:55

BijuShet,
Shree B Raman's opinion does matter, as he has served the country Though I respectfully dont agree with his view on this particular matter. A lot of people who were overtly pro-BJP (RSS cannot be considered to influence policy, until they stand for elections, hence my usage of BJP) has been silenced by admins or embarrassed themselves out of contention. Simultaneously, a lot of (seemingly) anti-BJP posters did paki style down-hill skiing and left in a huff. Shree B Raman cant blame a forum for the latter, can he?

ldev-saar, I like reading your posts and liked the way you have fought it out with some posters in this forum, instead of downhill skiing like a lot of others (some of whom I really liked to hear from). I am neutral when it comes to politics in India and feel our politicians are evenly matched in every dept. It is upto me to extract goodness out of the all, for my vote.. All the same, I feel uncomfortable when labels gets fixed around in internet forums, as that can start a trend of laziness amongst serious posters. So I sincerely hope that you desist from this RSS labeling.

Anyways, RSS is so early '90s and is no longer worthy of that kind of attention, as it has more or less (in its own half-assed way, IMO) integrated into the mainstream over the past ten years. That temple ain't gonna be built soon, so everyone in India (who has a purpose) seem to have dusted their ass and moved on. Plus I dont yet hear complaints from sub-Saharan Berbers or Queensland Aborigines about RSS pracharaks knocking on their woven reed doors saying "Have you ever considered Chatrapati in your life?" :P So they are not yet EJ caliber in pissing off quiet cul-de-sacs around the world.

Anyways, as Shiv-saar says, maybe NRIs do seem to be lagging behind on trends inside India..... We have much better labels floating around, yet NRIs from all sides pick on aging ones with no legs . In case you havent heard, "khadi is the new khaki" and is back in style, considering the Big Andhra Thaali (ND Tiwari + three side dishes), quelling dissent, insensitive handling of state issues etc

So please keep on posting rebuttals on merit, but not take the easy way of pinning labels.

SwamyG
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby SwamyG » 31 Dec 2009 01:56

How about a simple rule that we all should enforce upon ourselves in the Feedback dhaaga? Like an exercise in discipline? We all are crossing our lines.

Regular BRFites should not address each other for 3 days {in the feedback thread}. Members can address ONLY the Moderators/Web-Masters.

ldev
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 02:02

hnair,
ldev-saar, I like reading your posts and liked the way you have fought it out with some posters in this forum, instead of downhill skiing like a lot of others (some of whom I really liked to hear from).


I am of mixed Maratha-Rajput lineage although a Christian today. So yes, I do not know what giving up is (downhill skiing). Fighting I certainly understand. Its in my blood.

So please keep on posting rebuttals on merit, but not take the easy way of pinning labels.


Thank you for you wishes and advice. Time permitting I will.

Gerard
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Gerard » 31 Dec 2009 02:04

SwamyG wrote:I was wondering because the content might not relate or pertain to India; and I remember in the Indo-US thread it is encouraged to post only news/posts related to India.


The leeway given was being abused in the US thread with local US issues/politics being brought in because several members are US citizens/residents. That problem is unlikely to occur with the Japan and Burma threads.

BijuShet
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby BijuShet » 31 Dec 2009 02:10

BijuShet wrote: Can someone elaborate on why the singular opinion of B Raman ( who is no longer active on BRF as per mods) is more important than opinions of other posters who are already here? ...


hnair wrote:BijuShet,
Shree B Raman's opinion does matter, as he has served the country Though I respectfully dont agree with his view on this particular matter. A lot of people who were overtly pro-BJP (RSS cannot be considered to influence policy, until they stand for elections, hence my usage of BJP) has been silenced by admins or embarrassed themselves out of contention. Simultaneously, a lot of (seemingly) anti-BJP posters did paki style down-hill skiing and left in a huff. Shree B Raman cant blame a forum for the latter, can he?
...

Hnairji I did not say that B Raman's opinion does not matter. I ask why his singular opinion is more important than the opinions of other posters who are already here? Is it because he served the country and we allegedly did not. Is donating blood to fellow citizens and providing charitable donations not a form of service to the nation? Is investing your entire life savings when the country is under post nuclear international sanctions not a service to the nation? People who spend time here are those who ponder on the problems of our nation because they care for the nation and wish it well. The folks in power need to hear peoples voices directly and we are providing them our voices. B Raman did a shoot and scoot and this forum has not been the same ever since. It tells you something of his ability to weather criticism and shape reform while we have been branded many names and we are still here.

SwamyG
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby SwamyG » 31 Dec 2009 02:16

Gerard wrote:The leeway given was being abused in the US thread with local US issues/politics being brought in because several members are US citizens/residents. That problem is unlikely to occur with the Japan and Burma threads.

I agree. The first point is almost inevitable because of the reasons you correctly point out.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 02:20

oh btw, I wonder if people read this rejoinder by B Raman to that article. it was added after a couple of days when it first came up.

A caveat: Not all these people who post in these web sites are necessarily Hindutva cadres or sympathisers. There are some who feel more comfortable with the strategic thinking of the BJP on national issues than with that of the Congress I(I), but they cannot be characterised as pro-Hindutva.


----------------
I am of mixed Maratha-Rajput lineage although a Christian today. So yes, I do not know what giving up is (downhill skiing). Fighting I certainly understand. Its in my blood.

constitutes stereotyping, albeit a positive one. you tell me if it should be allowed to stand ?
if so, then one was to say something like "hindus are peaceful/XYZ/some +ve trait" and that was allowed to stand, would that constitute hindutva/RSS-ism ?
in which case your post would constitute parochialism ?

I just want to know your thought process.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby KarthikSan » 31 Dec 2009 02:22

RayC wrote:Hindusim is beyond RSS. It can never be extinguished. Our history bear proof! I am not afraid of external forces at work. We shall never be overcomed!


Not this time. It has nothing to do with Muslims or Christians but globalization and the EJ's that use it for their own ends. For the record: I don't consider televangelists, evangelists and a myriad other denominations of preachers as true Christians.

Earlier in our history Hinduism was used as a rallying point to fight invaders. In globalization, money is the new religion. There is no place for god. Not just Hinduism, but all religion will be destroyed in the times to come. Just a matter of time and money!!! Watch the movie "Idiocracy". It's a funny, stupid movie that exaggerates and embellishes things a lot. But you won't fail to see the underlying reality. All claims of greatness of the Indic people and how the west is degraded to the core is pure BS! Just read the news everyday and you will see how this "great" Indic civilization is becoming an Idiocracy.

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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Dec 2009 02:25

ldev wrote:
I dont know whether you have made the obove quote out of ignorance or malice. But for the record I had one of the biggest confrontations with SunilS before he quit the forum. Part of that confrontation was implicitly based on the thought police undertones.

And I thought this forum was going to get salvation!! Little did I realize that it would be hijacked by right wing idealogues.

But I have made my peace with SunilS and today respect him for other areas. One need not agree with a person in every area not to respect him/her.
The post was made purely based on what I gathered from your post. If in your view, the forum has been "hijacked" by so called "right wing" ideologues, then by all means, present your critiques, in a manner that can stand scrutiny, I will be the first one to defend your right to do so, and for you not to be called names for having a different POV. But, do not cry foul, if you start calling names and label people and motivations and cannot defend an argument and go on calling admins to clean house et al. Are admins any different from us posters, not to have their own ideological leanings? If the majority view is not acceptable to you and neither is the SunilS type of thought policing, then what is?

It is high time you need to question some of your own ideological beliefs, based on the evidence presented, rather than holding on to some beliefs, based on identities you may hold. Please do not come and tell us, you are above such ideological leanings and are entirely objective, I for one do not believe in any such thing. If there is indeed an RSS view point, expressed by some, so what. Argue against that view point.

ShauryaT
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Dec 2009 02:38

ldev wrote:General:
The whole angst with the RSS is that they are a divisive organization, just like the EJs who proclaim that only those who are "born again" are saved, the others are dammned. India IMO has enough divisive tendencies and encouraging divisive tendencies weakens India. It cannot have more of those. And as a divisive organization the RSS should not and cannot have support or patronage among the moderators and owners of a site such as BR which is ostensibly devoted to the protection of India.
What complete BS. BRF is devoted to the protection of India and the RSS is not! The RSS is a socio-political organization and as such, if BR permits, would love to debate on how "divisive" the RSS really is? Non agreement with their views, does not translate to being divisive.

You know, what is divisive. It is article 15, 29 and 30 of the Indian constitution. It is article 370 and the lack of a universal common law. Go figure, why do we still have ramparts of the much hated 42nd amendment, still present in the constitution. Who designed and put all these into the constitution? The RSS? Your post is a perfect example of your hate, not due to the argument you present but for the identities and/or beliefs you may hold.

The best vindication of the RSS view is by the last known decision of the Indian supreme court of Justice Varma in 2002, on the matter. Thank Allah, for small mercies.

ldev
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 02:49

I just want to know your thought process


RahulM,

Let me tell you that I have:

1. Attended EJ lectures and then got disillushioned with them because they are exclusivist IMO.

but I have also.

2. When the local RSS pramukh who lives in the same building as my folks asked me to join them for morning exercises (during my visit to India), I asked him and his shakha to join me for a morning run rather than them doing ineffective exercises in the maidan (open ground) opposite the building we all live in and they did that.

And I have told that pramukh (whom I respect for other reasons) to his face that the RSS idealogy is wrong. I am not an expert on it. My knowledge is based on my direct interactions with him and his shakha.

While it may be easy to do that in an interpersonal environment, IMO it is very difficult to control it in the internet environment such as BRF. And hence maybe the controls need to be stricter.

My biggest drawback is lack of time. One of the reasons that I have not been vocal on BRF is I simply do not have time. And in that case, if there are others who are contributing tirelessly (even if half of what they say is offensive in terms of idealogy and divisiveness) then who am I to stop them because if somebody calls my bluff and says then you contribute more, I may simply not have time to contribute. So for those who I may not agree with, I look at it positively and say that the glass is at least half full.

These exchanges have now come about because I sense BRF going further in a direction which makes me uncomfortable. And hence I have devoted an uncommon amount of time to make my viewpoint known in the last 24 hours.

Surya
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby Surya » 31 Dec 2009 02:53

Hi ldev

Wrt RayC it was not a question of issue for me - but procedures. And this is not dust up started over issues but over procedures. Issues were dragged to portray a sense of martyrdom

My posts and requests and the wonderful answers I was given are there on page 36 (may move due to pruning). It got caught in the crossfire on issues. Further discussions we can take offline if you wish.

SInce Jagan has been mentioned as an example - lets see how many arguments\retorts\taunts\muscle flexing etc. Jagan has been involved in?? None - Zero - he posts clinical facts, maybe questions
Hence if Jagan goes in and takes action on a poster you are going to see very little angst other than that of the disgruntled poster.

I have no problems from an issue perspective because as you can see from my footprint here I have no interest in any Hindu\Indic\dharmic\language\culture discussion.

from BRs inception days I was and will be absolutely content if it contains only the Military forum (ok maybe the Nukkad too :mrgreen: )
Last edited by Surya on 31 Dec 2009 03:57, edited 2 times in total.

ldev
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Re: BR Forums Feedback

Postby ldev » 31 Dec 2009 02:56

ShauryaT wrote:You know, what is divisive. It is article 15, 29 and 30 of the Indian constitution. It is article 370 and the lack of a universal common law. Go figure, why do we still have ramparts of the much hated 42nd amendment, still present in the constitution. Who designed and put all these into the constitution.


Part of my post from earlier:

PS: For the record, let me state that I support an India which grants every citizen equal rights. I do not support special rights, rules, reservations for anyone of any religion.


Protection granted at the time of India's independence may have been warranted. Protection today is IMO not warranted. However to mobilize the support needed to change such laws must be done via the democratic electoral process and not other means.


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