The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36393
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 09 Sep 2008 01:44

imho, india centric 5th gen requiements must prime around net-centric warfare, especially with colloborated and home grown software codes, more with mission computing and have a lead on weapons platform integration from france, israel and russia. this is the only way, we can keep up our head high against the chinks., everything what the russkies offer, would end up on the pilaf plate.

sunny_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 97
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 21:29
Location: mother earth

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby sunny_s » 09 Sep 2008 16:04

Thats absolutely right ..n i think the "THNIK TANKS" OF THE IAF also know that very well..talkin about the avionics of pak-fa..we for sure would need the french n the isreali tech works..our mki is a good example in that context which has the beutyfull ruggedness of ruski air frame along with the best western n indian avionics onboard..is their any possibility of the ruskiyindians goin fr thought of developing the same aircraft with the vertical landing and taking off capability(like the yankee f-35)as if would be beneficial fr the indian navy and would complement any stealth aircraft carrier of future taking into account the time frame its being build fr..many countries like france,US N EVEN CHINA are working on it and and are already out with tech.demonstrators...tell me if m wrong smwhere

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 814
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby neerajb » 09 Sep 2008 18:20

JaiS wrote:Hello Neeraj,

The 117S has been actively promoted to China for upgrade of their existing Su-27/30 fleet. To me, it means that the upgrade of existing Flanker fleets using the 117S should not be overly complicated.


I was not questioning the authenticity of the comment but the conflicting engine sizes. Tejas's intakes redesign is talked about so many times even when GE 414 and GE 404 have the same dimensions. Whereas here the whole fan stages have different diameter and the new engine provides so much of extra dry and wet thrust. So how come the changes be minimal?

Cheers....

JaiS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2190
Joined: 01 Mar 2003 12:31
Location: JPEG-jingostan
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 09 Sep 2008 20:08

neerajbhandari wrote:
So how come the changes be minimal?

Cheers....


Hello Neeraj,

When I said 'minimal' I meant it in relative terms, comparing it with other engines which were not meant to be applied for upgrades of the existing Flanker fleets, from the start.

Daedalus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 00:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Daedalus » 12 Sep 2008 01:46

Here is a video from youtube claiming to be PAK-FA. If this is the one then its awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNpurq-ziU

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 02:13

wait till the official/semi-official leaks start coming out before the public roll-out. don't believe anything till then. chances are, you will hear it on BR before youtube catches up.
if you are really interested, keep an eye out at keypubs.

Arya Sumantra
BRFite
Posts: 558
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 11:47
Location: Deep Freezer

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Arya Sumantra » 12 Sep 2008 07:27

Daedalus wrote:Here is a video from youtube claiming to be PAK-FA. If this is the one then its awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNpurq-ziU


The fighter in the video is twin engine type. If true then still it is the russian pak-fa. The version for India is a single engine type.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 12 Sep 2008 07:32

Arya Sumantra wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Here is a video from youtube claiming to be PAK-FA. If this is the one then its awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNpurq-ziU


The fighter in the video is twin engine type. If true then still it is the russian pak-fa. The version for India is a single engine type.


no. the only difference between the IAF and RuAF versions of the PAK-FA will be avionics, weapons and twin-seat/single-seat fighters. if they went in for a single engined version of the PAK-FA it would be almost a different aircraft.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 10:51

Arya Sumantra wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Here is a video from youtube claiming to be PAK-FA. If this is the one then its awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNpurq-ziU


The fighter in the video is twin engine type. If true then still it is the russian pak-fa. The version for India is a single engine type.

wrong. externally, only difference between the Indian and russi versions is the # of crew -- theirs will be single seater while ours will be twin seater.
in that vid, the first a/c shown is the s-37 berkut while the second one looks like a f-35 whose exhaust section has been altered.

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby abhijitm » 12 Sep 2008 12:11

Rahul M wrote:wrong. externally, only difference between the Indian and russi versions is the # of crew -- theirs will be single seater while ours will be twin seater.


some layman questions, how does twin seater is better than single seater? or why IAF wants twin seater only while world's two superpowers want single seater 5th gen fighter?

what is the eqation between F-22 and ind-PAK-FA? like:
single seater F-22 + advance tech = not so advanced tech + twin seater ind-PAK-FA ? and if that so then why LCA is not twin seater? (i mean to compensate tech)

sorry for firing layman questions but this is bugging me...

ranganathan
BRFite
Posts: 277
Joined: 06 Feb 2008 23:14

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby ranganathan » 12 Sep 2008 12:30

PAk-FA will eventually replace MKI and will be tased with long range patrols like MKI (8-9 hrs), here having 2 pilots is better than 1 so MKI and PAK-FA will be 2 seaters. LCA is a replement for Mig-21 and as capable as M2K. It is meant for CAP duties which only last 1 hour so single pilot.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 12:58

abhijitm wrote:some layman questions, how does twin seater is better than single seater? or why IAF wants twin seater only while world's two superpowers want single seater 5th gen fighter?

the roles that USAF or VVS sees its FGFA doing will be different from the ones that IAF wants from it. you can't simply compare two air forces and say this model A is better than model B.
what works for air force A may not work for air force B, given that operational philosophy, training etc may be all different.
the reason IAF went with the 2 seater is that the workload and stress on a single pilot becomes tremendous for long missions and the PAKFA, like the mki should be able to do very long missions. IIRC both cockpitters in a su can fly the a/c -- expect the same in pakfa.
moreover, two people can handle the job much more efficiently during critical situations, especially in strike missions. I suspect that both USAF and RuAF pays secondary importance to the strike aspect of the raptor and PAKFA. US because it expects the f-35(similar to f-15 and f-16 correspondence. remember that 2 seat f-15s came out only when they wanted a strike version) to do much of that and ru because realistically, such a need has little probability of happening in the russian context. whatever need of strike missions arises in the future can be met by a combination of current fighters and the su-34. also, I expect a strike optimized FGFA would also come out from russia, after the PAKFA has progressed somewhat. whether it would be a totally new a/c(like the f-35 to the f-22) or a derivative of PAKFA (like F-15E to older F-15's) remains to be seen.
the Indian PAKFA would be much more versatile and multi-role from the start while the russian ones would be mainly for continental air superiority missions. Given their vast expanse, cont. AS is a very important role for them to fill since the proliferation of LO american aircraft.
twin seaters are redundant in that case, single seaters are enough.
abhijitm wrote:what is the eqation between F-22 and ind-PAK-FA? like:
single seater F-22 + advance tech = not so advanced tech + twin seater ind-PAK-FA ?

it's a bit difficult to compare two a/c when all you know about one of them is from fan-art ! :P
regardless, expect PAKFA to be as good as the raptor in most aspects and better in some.
a lot of time has passed since the f-22 specs were frozen and technology hasn't stood still. :wink:
this being a very critical project for the russians both for the military and the MIC, they would give their best effort and that isn't usually too inferior to what the americans manage !
and if that so then why LCA is not twin seater? (i mean to compensate tech)

as I said, it's not just about technology. sure, sensor fusion plays a part but an ergonomically designed cockpit can bring down pilot workload to manageable levels even w/o it.

regarding the role of the LCA, think of the a/c it is replacing, the fishbed. it is a point defence interceptor with a very limited A2G ability.
the LCA OTOH would be able stay up much longer, especially with AAR. unlike the mig-21 it would be even able to perform CAP missions over limited areas like forward airfields and critical installations close to the border. and then there is the limited strike role, where the 'limitation' is only in # of bombs it can carry and how far it can carry. the former is of little importance in the days of PGMs and with it's small airframe, the tejas would be a pretty decent strike a/c albeit with a shorter range. but then, pindi isn't that far from the border !
moreover, it can self escort. all in all, a mirage-2000 esque lower end a/c to replace the mig-21 would be superb for IAF.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2008 13:20

Besides the technical aspect that Rahul has mentioned , a twin seater also helps generates more jobs in this country , well good for every one :wink:

It would be interesting to see how will the IAF manage to get these many pilots/wso when MKI ,PAK-FA and MMRCA is expected to be twin seater.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 13:30

:lol:
Austin, I don't think the MMRCA will be twin seater. IIRC IAF specifically asked for a single seater. of course the 2 seat type conversion ones might be there. if MRCA turns out to be twin seater, IAF might have to raid engn colleges before the IT companies do !

MukulMohanty
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 65
Joined: 07 Jul 2008 16:00

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby MukulMohanty » 12 Sep 2008 15:55

We are 400 active pilot's short but then being an AF pilot isn't that bad as it gives you choices later in life such as civvie flying.

I think its going to be a two seater as the MKI has proved it makes better sense to have a dedicated WSO at the back seat. MKI has taught us a lot of new things about tactics and to be honest, they made the Mig-35 a two seater with a similiar tactic in mind.

Daedalus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 00:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Daedalus » 12 Sep 2008 22:37

how does twin seater is better than single seater?

My case on having two seater version.

For multi-role missions the pilot has to make more decisions, so the co-pilot helps in target acquisition, navigation and other logistics. But an aircraft with single pilot is usually good for dog fights. So if you have two people you can do both dog fight and bomb ground targets. This is the case with SU-30MKI and the role PAK-FA will be playing soon. That is go on long missions, where as LCA will be useful in defending resources and things like that where no need to plan much, just chase the enemy away.

Just a thought: this is a result of IAF not having bombers. Again our military is not offensive force it is defensive one. Through out history India is not the aggressor but has only tried to defend.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 22:42

the mki is enough of a bomber if it gets the right gizmos. it's airframe certainly allow that.
8t payload is no joke. only US and russia use dedicated bombers nowadays. china's bomber force is a derelict cold war legacy.

Daedalus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 00:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Daedalus » 12 Sep 2008 22:45

the mki is enough of a bomber if it gets the right gizmos. it's airframe certainly allow that.
8t payload is no joke. only US and russia use dedicated bombers nowadays. china's bomber force is a derelict cold war legacy.

No argument there and exactly my point.

By the by I am new to this forum. If I am doing something not right please let me know I'll correct it.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 22:49

not to worry, lurk around and be comfortable. welcome to BRF.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 12 Sep 2008 23:22

I think what will happen with respect to PAK-FA would be Russia will fly a TD in 2009 and get the basic thing working , based on that the project will be forked into Indian Twin Seater PAK-FA and Russian PAK-FA.

Where as the Indian one would be more of MKI type and Russian single seater will also be multirole single seater.

Now the thing to look will be what is the Technology that Russia will be willing to share with India.

Like if the Russian AF has a stealth requirement of 0.001 Frontal RCS , but will be willing to share onleee .01 with India ? Novell SUSE Linux

2nd important factor is the TOT in Engine , how much is russia willing to do that for us , these 5th Gen engine

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 12 Sep 2008 23:24

ranganathan wrote:PAk-FA will eventually replace MKI and will be tased with long range patrols like MKI (8-9 hrs), here having 2 pilots is better than 1 so MKI and PAK-FA will be 2 seaters. LCA is a replement for Mig-21 and as capable as M2K. It is meant for CAP duties which only last 1 hour so single pilot.


the MKI's are going to stay in the IAF till 2040 at least considering most of them are not yet inducted. so, while the first few squadrons of PAK-FA will most likely be flying alongside the MKI for a good 15 years till they take over all MKI roles.

regarding the benefits of twin seaters, if one takes the example of the SH, thanks to AESA (which the PAK-FA will also have), the two pilots can, theoretically, be tasked with A2A and A2G responsibilities independently of each other..the pilot would be on the lookout for any A2A threats (SAMs, fighters, etc.) whereas the WSO would be tasked with carrying out the A2G mission. such a mission could put a lot of stress and workload on a single pilot even with sensor fusion.

apart from that, 2 sets of eyes for performing missions have a greater chance of survival IMO and definitely reduced fatigue per pilot.

Another point is that the IAF may not order all of its PAK-FA as twin-seaters. for the MRCA order, the split is more on the lines of 70 odd single seaters and 56 or so twin seaters.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3097
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby fanne » 12 Sep 2008 23:30

Well IAF is not a defensive force. We have more bombers than we have interceptors and multipurpose plane put together!! (Mig 23bn, Mig 27 and Jaguars are total over 400 planes!!). While Mig21 Bison, Mirages and 30MKI all can double as bomber.
rgds,
fanne

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Sep 2008 23:32

Another point is that the IAF may not order all of its PAK-FA as twin-seaters. for the MRCA order, the split is more on the lines of 70 odd single seaters and 56 or so twin seaters.
do you have a source for that ?
thanks.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4609
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 13 Sep 2008 01:01

Rahul M wrote:
Another point is that the IAF may not order all of its PAK-FA as twin-seaters. for the MRCA order, the split is more on the lines of 70 odd single seaters and 56 or so twin seaters.
do you have a source for that ?
thanks.


the breakup was mentioned in one article regarding Boeing's response to the MRCA competition. the split was given as being 70 or thereabout single seaters and the rest would be twin seaters. unfortunately, can't find that article now.

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 814
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby neerajb » 13 Sep 2008 07:27

Image

IMHO the right hand side shiny model should be for wind tunnel testing. If they are testing the airframes in wind tunnel then it means there is little for india to learn/contribute in design aerodynamics wise. But yes India has vast experience in systems design/integration cluminating from MKI experience. So I guess Indian contribution would be the design/integration of sub systems. But still, I guess, the main sensors (radar and OLS) would come from russia.

Cheers....

gauravjkale
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 29 May 2007 15:32
Location: Mumbai

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby gauravjkale » 13 Sep 2008 09:13

Its a very old picture...

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 814
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby neerajb » 13 Sep 2008 10:02

I am not too sure how old it is but this is the first real pic of PAK FA that I have seen so far. Otherwise till date all the posted pics have been artist renditions.

Cheers...

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby krishnan » 13 Sep 2008 10:11

Yes, old picture.

pkudva
BRFite
Posts: 164
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 13:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby pkudva » 13 Sep 2008 10:32

No news has been heard on this project fom some time now,hope everything is fine now.I hope the difference in the design requirements have been clearly decieded and all the design of the A/c has started.
I wish to see this a/c's in the 2 airforces in 2015 as planned after all testing.

Daedalus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 00:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Daedalus » 18 Sep 2008 01:30

That is a cool picture, even if its old. It looks like a cross between conventional swept wing + forward swept wing + stelth or su-30 + su-47 + stelth. I am all pumped up to see this mean machine fly.

There will be more from where that picture came from, is there?

rajsunder
BRFite
Posts: 596
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 02:38
Location: MASA Land

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rajsunder » 18 Sep 2008 01:34

its a PS pic, check out key forums

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1159
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rkhanna » 18 Sep 2008 01:45

I am not too sure how old it is but this is the first real pic of PAK FA that I have seen so far. Otherwise till date all the posted pics have been artist renditions.

Cheers


its a PS pic, check out key forums


The pic is not related to the PAK-FA its from the early/mid 90s. The Russians did a LOT of Experimenting in 5 generation protypes/Tech and were unable to take it any further due to lack of funding. The Mig 1.44 and S-37 were the furthest they ever got to. The S-37 tech got later incorporated into the Su-35BM-1 and the Su-34 and was also the core of initial PAK-FA design phase.

The Pic is INDEED PS however the pic is not fake. These two prototypes did exist but not in the same picture. There is another picture of a Russian B-2 looking Aircraft (Scalled down) undergoing Windtunnel testing.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16408
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 18 Sep 2008 02:05

Daedalus wrote:That is a cool picture, even if its old. It looks like a cross between conventional swept wing + forward swept wing + stelth or su-30 + su-47 + stelth. I am all pumped up to see this mean machine fly.

There will be more from where that picture came from, is there?


They have been recycled.

Daedalus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 42
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 00:57

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Daedalus » 18 Sep 2008 02:33

rkhanna wrote:
I am not too sure how old it is but this is the first real pic of PAK FA that I have seen so far. Otherwise till date all the posted pics have been artist renditions.

Cheers


its a PS pic, check out key forums


The pic is not related to the PAK-FA its from the early/mid 90s. The Russians did a LOT of Experimenting in 5 generation protypes/Tech and were unable to take it any further due to lack of funding. The Mig 1.44 and S-37 were the furthest they ever got to. The S-37 tech got later incorporated into the Su-35BM-1 and the Su-34 and was also the core of initial PAK-FA design phase.

The Pic is INDEED PS however the pic is not fake. These two prototypes did exist but not in the same picture. There is another picture of a Russian B-2 looking Aircraft (Scalled down) undergoing Windtunnel testing.


That is a some new info. Hopefully they resurrect the one in the pics, it looks deadly :twisted: .

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5693
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dileep » 18 Sep 2008 15:45

The normal line of thinking on an MKI is that the pilot is the boss and the WSO is the junior. But the IAF concept is the opposite. The WSO is the senior guy and in command. The pilot is just the "saaradhi".

Read that some long time ago, from Mr MKI, IIRC

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2008 15:54

rear seater in F14,15,16,18 sit at the same level and can hardly fly the aircraft.

due to droopy nose the WSO of a Sukhoi can easily fly and land the machine.

so are all sukhoi WSOs basically normal fighter pilots or there is a separate 'stream'
for them? do they constantly swap between the front and back seats?

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 814
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby neerajb » 18 Sep 2008 15:55

What is the full form of PS?

Cheers....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2008 15:57

photo shop.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16408
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 18 Sep 2008 17:12

Singha wrote:rear seater in F14,15,16,18 sit at the same level and can hardly fly the aircraft.


They are not designed/equipped to fly from the back, or are they?

due to droopy nose the WSO of a Sukhoi can easily fly and land the machine.


The "droopy nose" exists in other Su-27 family ACs, but when the MKI came out, IIRC, it was the only one that had the dual capability.

so are all sukhoi WSOs basically normal fighter pilots or there is a separate 'stream'
for them? do they constantly swap between the front and back seats?


I think the MKI is unique in more ways than one and cannot be really compared to the others so easily. I THINK the Malaysian MK is the only one that is fairly close to the MKI.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2008 18:19

the 2 seat version is a legacy of the russian 'Su-30K'. it was envisaged as a pure air to air bird which would act as an active airborne controller.
the typical mission would have seen 4 plain jane su-27s flying with radars off with only the 30K operating its radar and using it to guide the other flankers. flanker's rudimentary datalink also owes its origins to this role.
this mini-awacs role required a second more senior man to control the 'proceedings' a practice which might have continued into the IAF as Dileep mentions.

so when you here about the mki as a mini AWACS, don't think it is empty internet speculation ! :twisted:


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 30 guests