The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 06 Feb 2009 09:57

FGFA is supposed to "compete" with the F-35 I thought. Who wants F-22 specs when TSP is about to die. Save those specs for a rainy day.

JMTs.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby andy B » 06 Feb 2009 10:15

^^^ Even the F-22 has compromised IR and Visual stealth in lieu of perfomance.

As NRao pointed out TSP isnt the major threat Dragon is and unless we plan to fight the USAF we dont need F22 stealth specs outright. the PAK FA will do nicely and should be sufficient.

It would be better if these so called stealth specs were saved for the MCA given that its going to have non afterburning turbofans and meant for specilised strikes the specs will help it better than the PAKFA...

JMT...

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby putnanja » 10 Feb 2009 03:35

India, Russia to work on advanced fighter plane

...
Speaking to The Hindu ahead of the Aero India-2009 air show, Mr. Pogosyan said the Russian and Indian versions of the new fighter would closely match each.

“We have now reached a broad agreement with our Indian partners on technical requirements for the new aircraft. The Russian and Indian versions will be very closely integrated. This is extremely important for bringing down production costs.”
...

The new Indo-Russian fighter will have super manoeuvrability and stealth features, will carry high-precision weapons in its fuselage and fly at supersonic cruising speed. Mr. Pogosyan said some technologies developed for the fifth-generation fighter were already being installed in modernised versions of fourth-generation planes, including the Su-30MKI, which India was manufacturing under Russian licence.
...

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 11 Feb 2009 14:28

T-50

In early 2005, when they OKB. Sukhoi FGFA project presented to the Indian Air Force, it was very surprising that the two Indian version will be easier for single Russian aircraft to 5 tons. The point is that the «dry» invited the Indians limited technical proposal for odnodvigatelnomu version of the aircraft, which was rejected by the Indian side as it does not meet the requirements. In December (2005), OKB introduced dvuhdvigatelny option FGFA, based on the aerodynamic pattern with the reverse sweep wing. The proposal includes a 50% participation of Indian side in this project. OKB them. Sukhoi also demanded the immediate funding of the program in the amount of 300 million U.S. dollars, to have time to prepare a detailed project aircraft.

In addition, the NGO «Saturn» and Ufa IGOs have proposed the transfer of India’s license to manufacture AL-31FP engine plant in Korapute. Both Moscow and New Delhi have agreed that this is a very important step towards each other, as well as up to this time Russia will not transfer technology of production of military aircraft abroad, including the 1500 production of this type of engine to equip the Indian Su-30MKI planes, collected on Russian license at the factory HAL. The engines are supplied to the assembly plant is fully staffed in Russia.
Under the new scheme of cooperation, India and possibly Brazil, eventually will finance a program to develop FGFA by 90% (total cost of the program is estimated at 2 billion U.S. dollars). Thus, single Russian T-50 PAK FA, which decided to abandon the scheme with forwardswept wing will be ready for testing in 2009, and its Indian version FGFA fly two years later. Russia has made efforts to modernize the AL-31FP to increase its thrust by 20%, which will provide a flight at supersonic cruise without the inclusion of forsazhnoy camera. The service life of the engine and equipped with a digital control system, will reach 6000 hours, the thrust vector will deviate vertically by + / -15 degrees, and horizontally by + / -8 degrees.

Monocrystal of blade turbine engine will be covered with anti-corrosion system, a new generation of development Ural plant Prado, which significantly increase the lifetime of the engine. Regarding the development of electronic equipment and aircraft avionics export, Russia has every right to engage in their development of the Indian DRDO. India itself will develop the electronics with an open architecture and integrated EW. In addition, the Indian aircraft will be equipped with a digital fiber-optic system, as opposed to digital elektrodistantsionnoy SU T-50 aircraft. Such a system would be established jointly by the DRDO and the Brazilian company EMBRAER.

Radars with AFAR will be developed with the French company THALES, Israel Aerospace Corporation, the Russian company «Fazotron», the Swedish Ericsson and the European defense association EADS. The cost of two FGFA currently estimated at 65 million U.S. dollars.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sajith_J » 11 Feb 2009 18:56

NRao wrote:T-50

The cost of two FGFA currently estimated at 65 million U.S. dollars.


Is this Price realistic and is anything known about a VSTOL version?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 11 Feb 2009 19:28

The cost of two FGFA


He seems to be referring to two prototype ACs it looks like. Don't know, but it seems rather cheap to me, for TWO protos.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby jaladipc » 12 Feb 2009 04:10

in that case...... 32.5 million/piece we can mass produce a lot of 500 aircraft and tell them to go for sight seeing over China`s vast territory.Come back and explain us in detail about your trip :D

We cant even get an MKI with that price with today`s exchange rates.....

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 12 Feb 2009 05:02

THAT is called "getting carried away". These "proto types" - do not expect them to be anywhere close to the production ones.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby krishnan » 12 Feb 2009 11:04

35 now , 130 later all because of cost escalations

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Feb 2009 11:16

"Half now, half upon completion" :mrgreen:
The Bear's price is $70 million ( :eek: half of that is 35 mn !!), with half paid up front and the other half payable upon completion of the job. If word of the operation gets out, the Bear has the option whether or not to continue; either way the initial payment is his to keep.



with apologies to the original.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sajith_J » 12 Feb 2009 22:37

NRao wrote:
The cost of two FGFA


He seems to be referring to two prototype ACs it looks like. Don't know, but it seems rather cheap to me, for TWO protos.


I agree, the price of prototypes must be much much higher. So it might be a unitprice for us, don't forget that we are a partner in this project, so the price for us and the price for an export version will be totally different!
Look at F35, the unitcost is estimated between 80 and 100 Mil $, but Noway as a partner gets it for around 52 Mil $.

Do you have any infos about an VSTOL version of Pak Fa?

Thx, Sajith

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Feb 2009 22:42

2 FGFA or price for v2.0 ? 70 mn is still looking small.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 12 Feb 2009 23:04

Hmm............ What IF the protos have a dummy radar, for instance?

As far as I know much of what is "supposed" to be on the final AC is still under development. The last time I checked even the PAK-FA (about to fly) was supposed to be a shadow of what it is supposed to be. And, finally, going by the F-22, even though the Russians have a leg up (gleaning from what the US has done) AND their own ingenuity (which is potent), I for one would expect a true PAK-FA to emerge somewhere in 2012 or thereabouts.

Now, plug in the FGFA with RUian stuff and then try and integrate what IAF wants - we are talking at least 2105, more like 2017 or so. For the close to mature FGFA ............... and................. that will NOT be $70 mil for two.

I would expect the $70 mil planes to have left over engines, radars, etc. Outside of a close to production ready frame, much of all else should be leftovers until the real ones arrive and then take a few years to mature. All this PAK-FA = F-35 is just fine, but have they still have a Su that is close to the MKI? And, if so, how many? Is the MKI in IAF as mature as the M2K? All this things take time - loooong time.

Sorry for the ramble.

So, that is the extent of my logic.
Last edited by NRao on 12 Feb 2009 23:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 12 Feb 2009 23:08

astute logic, if I may say so. agree with the dates.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 16 Feb 2009 23:09

Seems like date for the first flight of PAK-FA prototype has officially been nudged to 2010, awaiting more articles for confirmation.

Translation credits: Roy FC.


First Flight of Fifth Generation Fighter Prototype to Take Place in 2010 - Popovkin


The first flight of the fifth generation prototype will take place in 2010, the Russian Federation armed forces armaments chief, deputy minister of defense General-Colonel Vladimir Popovkin announced in an interview published today in Krasnaya Zvezda.

"With the creation of such a complex, scientifically intensive article as the fifth generation fighter, it is not possible to name the period of its acceptance into the inventory precisely. However, the fifth generation should be provided throughout with all the components of the airplane - the airframe, engine, avionics and weapons. The first flight of the prototype of the new fightetr with such elements as the airframe and engine is planned for 2010. What happens next depends on industry," the deputy defense minister noted.



Source: 11.02.09, ARMS-TASS




Flight Tests of Russian Fifth Generation Fighter to Start Within Year


Flight tests of the Russian fifth generation fighter will begin within a year, the first vice president of the Unified Aircraft Building Corporation (OAK) and general director of the Sukhoy and MiG companies, Mikhail Pogosyan, reported to an ARMS-TASS correspondent at the seventh international Aero India 2009 aerospace exhibition.

He noted that a significant part of the developments have been accomplished on individual systems, for example, on the airframe, while to a lesser degree on the radar. "However, that volume of work which has been performed up to now allows us to begin flight tests of the fighter," M. Pogosyan emphasized.

He also announced that it is planned to develop a whole series of modifications of the basic variant of the airplane - a twin-seat variant and a ship-based variant.

According to M. Pogosyan, cooperation with India on the fifth generation fighter will bear the broadest of characteristics and the agreements signed between Russia and India on this program provide for a 50/50 partnership. "We think that we are realizing the partnership plan fully in the creation cycle for this airplane and the development of its modifications," M. Pogosyan added.

He recalled that some fifth generation fighter program developments are being used successfully on upgraded fourth generation airplanes. In particular, the active phased array radar (AFAR) has been integrated successfully onto the MiG-35 which increases this airplane's chances in the Indian air force tender for the purchase of 126 fighters.

The co-development with India of the fifth generation airplane will parallel the licensed production program of the Russian Su-30MKI fighters in India.



Source: 13.02.09, ARMS-TASS

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sajith_J » 28 Feb 2009 01:05

Navy Pak Fa version?

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090227/120342249.html

He said the carrier will serve as a seaborne platform for new-generation fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, in particular, a fifth-generation fighter that will replace the Su-33 multirole fighter aircraft currently in service, as well as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

"It will be a fifth-generation aircraft with classic horizontal take-off and landing capability," the admiral said.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 28 Feb 2009 10:21

Sajith, thanks for posting the article. Naval version of the PAK FA has been mentioned many times before.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby b_patel » 01 Mar 2009 13:01

I have a hypothetical question. What would happen if the FGFA wasn't able to be inducted on time while the Pak-FA was? Would India choose to produce the Pak-Fa instead and wait for the FGFA to be finished or would they scrap the FGFA? I know India wants a 2 seater Fifth Generation aircraft, but would they take the one seater instead? Also i was looking up the new A2A missiles that would be on the Pak-fa but i couldn't get a lot of info. Anyone know what they are supposed to carry, I know the K-172 might be there.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sajith_J » 01 Mar 2009 14:19

JaiS wrote:Sajith, thanks for posting the article. Naval version of the PAK FA has been mentioned many times before.


Sorry, but there is still no official design of Pak Fa and there where also rumors about a STOVL version for navy like F35. This was the first more or less official report (I know) that says something about a 5. Gen navy fighter and it's capabilities, that's why I postet it.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby nitinr » 01 Mar 2009 17:32

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10647

Above URL talks about no new version for India for the time being.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10646

This talks about MCA by 2019.

So does this mean end to teh partnership on PAK FA

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 01 Mar 2009 23:04

Hi,

nitinr wrote:
So does this mean end to teh partnership on PAK FA


Not at all. This is what is said in the article you posted, about Indian partnership.

As Pogosyan said, the Indian requirements can be taken into account later, while HAL’s 50% share in the development of the IAF modification can be realized in the more distant future – including the creation of two-seat and ship-based variants.


The article basically mentions what has been said earlier, i.e., the Russian version of PAK-FA will be worked upon earlier, and upon completion will act as the base for Indian mod.


b_patel wrote:
Also i was looking up the new A2A missiles that would be on the Pak-fa but i couldn't get a lot of info. Anyone know what they are supposed to carry, I know the K-172 might be there.



A non-comprehensive list of AAMs is as follows:

Izdeliye 300 / K-MD. (Reference: Page 2, Page3 of this thread)
Izdeliye 760. (Reference: Page3 of this thread)
Izdeliye 810 (Reference: Page 2 of this thread)
Izdeliye 180 / K-77M (Reference: Page 2, Page 3 of this thread)
Izdeliye 170-1 / K-77-1 (Reference: Page 3 of this thread)

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby abhijitm » 02 Mar 2009 00:16

I dont understand what is the very logic of keeping the aircraft design so secrete? There are f-35, f-22 already in display for anyone who want to copy a 5th generation design. So why this confidentiality? and what worst could happen?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby adarshp » 02 Mar 2009 04:08

have a look at the link below. The content is in russian, but the right hand side bar, if you scroll down you will see concept drawings of the PAK FA. It was know that the reverse swept design was discarded as the russians were able to fly the craft but the airframe fatigue posed too many issues that could not be overcome, and it was deemed too risky. I think this is the max that is in public domain at the moment. If anyone has more, please share.

http://www.paralay.com/pakfasu.html

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 02 Mar 2009 06:07


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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kailash » 02 Mar 2009 20:15


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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 04 Mar 2009 09:53

FWIW,

What Will the New Domestic Aircraft Carrier Be Like?


The Russian aircraft carrier presently being designed should be atomic-powered, have a water displacement of around 60,000 tonnes and it will not carry cruise missiles as Soviet carriers did. After examining prospects for the carrier wing, it seems only a maritime variant of the PAK-FA will suffice. There would be approximately 30 to 36 in the wing, not counting other unspecified aircraft types. Another discussion considers 24 heavy (PAK-FA) and 24 lightweight (MiG-29K or a future lightweight fighter) for the wing. Regardless, there must be space both below deck and above for unmanned aerial vehicles, helicopters and certain auxiliary aircraft.



Source: 03.03.09, RIA Novosti, Correspondent: Il'ya Kramnik

Translation credits: Roy FC

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Ardeshir » 05 Mar 2009 14:20

Has there been a proposal for naming the PAK-FA yet?
I hope they don't come up with Suresh or Krishnan for it. :roll:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rajsunder » 05 Mar 2009 21:21

Prasant wrote:Has there been a proposal for naming the PAK-FA yet?
I hope they don't come up with Suresh or Krishnan for it. :roll:

If congress comes to power, they would surely name it rajiv :mrgreen:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 15 Mar 2009 23:15

Not sure if this has been posted before:

2008 :: Su-PAKFA a Russian Stealth Fighter

In this drawing the missiles seem to be outside the AC! (larger pic: http://bp0.blogger.com/_RRbP6fpJWAc/R4- ... -pakfa.jpg )

Image

Something under construction:

Image




Oct 2008 :: Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 16 Mar 2009 03:14

The assembly pics gives a pic of Su-37 front looks. But this is just an assumption looking from rear. It definitely the first aircraft by russian block to build a splayed out rudder design (am i correct?). But, fgfa appears to be more slayed than raptor.. and I guess this is largely due to 360* tvc they are relying on largely for vector control., that is automatic and not on an la cobra engage button.

It would be interesting to see a pic from the front and at all angles.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 16 Mar 2009 22:02

SaiK wrote:The assembly pics gives a pic of Su-37 front looks. But this is just an assumption looking from rear. It definitely the first aircraft by russian block to build a splayed out rudder design (am i correct?). But, fgfa appears to be more slayed than raptor.. and I guess this is largely due to 360* tvc they are relying on largely for vector control., that is automatic and not on an la cobra engage button.

It would be interesting to see a pic from the front and at all angles.

that under construction flanker seems more like PAKDA
Image

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 16 Mar 2009 22:49

appears to be so.. but there are certain things only will be known by august time frame when it is supposed to take air.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sid » 16 Mar 2009 23:22

NRao wrote:Not sure if this has been posted before:


Image


doesn't look anything like the aircraft in CG. From back it looks more like an enlarged Mig 29 to me :roll: btw its silky smooth metallic body defeats the traditional romantic image of a stealth fighter.

seems like a more super duper huge Su 30 derivative.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sontu » 16 Mar 2009 23:31

No, it is definately Su-35 or may be latest Su-35 BM(version without canard) .

see this at wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sukhoi_Su-35.jpg

carefully look at a small sized sensor at the root of vertical stabilizer in both the images and compare.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 18 Mar 2009 00:17

silky smooth could be paint as well? of course, i am guessing. btw, it is definitely not a "stealth shape" by design as we don't see those angled shapes. it could be more on the stealth based on coating technology or a MEMS nano tech thickly painted skin that does a near 98% magic on the radar signature.

the intention of the photographer to provide a non-detailed view of the a/c has a larger agenda rather perhaps.

any more pics?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 18 Mar 2009 00:51

SaiK wrote:silky smooth could be paint as well? of course, i am guessing. btw, it is definitely not a "stealth shape" by design as we don't see those angled shapes. it could be more on the stealth based on coating technology or a MEMS nano tech thickly painted skin that does a near 98% magic on the radar signature.

the intention of the photographer to provide a non-detailed view of the a/c has a larger agenda rather perhaps.

any more pics?

you mean old soviet style :)

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby KrishG » 18 Mar 2009 00:56

NRao wrote:FGFA is supposed to "compete" with the F-35 I thought. Who wants F-22 specs when TSP is about to die. Save those specs for a rainy day.

JMTs.


No! The FGFA is an air-superiority fighter. The F-35 is a multi-role fighter more closer to a strike aircraft. F-35 at present is only comparable to the planned Indian MCA.

That's why India is going with both MCA and PAK-FA. They are different aircraft. Much like the difference between F-22 and F-35.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 18 Mar 2009 02:30

Sontu wrote:No, it is definately Su-35 or may be latest Su-35 BM(version without canard) .

see this at wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sukhoi_Su-35.jpg

carefully look at a small sized sensor at the root of vertical stabilizer in both the images and compare.


no. the picture of the aircraft under assembly had canted stabilizers. very canted. no Su-27 derivative has such canted stabs.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 18 Mar 2009 06:59

Translation credits to Roy FC.

Reduction of Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant Workers Will not Impact Time for Creation of Fifth Generation Fighter - Production Association Management


The Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) lay off 700 workers in the very near future, but this will not impact time for realization of basic projects, enterprise management declares.

"Optimization is underway owing to reorganization of the enterprise's ancillary departments. We intend to let go not more than 700 people in the coming 6 months. Primarily it is a question of workers who have reached retirement age," the KnAAPO deputy director, Sergey Ageev, reported to journalists.

He was commenting on a reports of a number of media that massive reductions of workers are planned at KnAAPO that may frustrate dates for realization of the program for creation of the fifth generation fighter, and also construction of Sukhoy Superjet 100 passenger airplanes in which KnAAPO, included in the Sukhoy holding company, is participating.

According to S. Ageev, the proposed decrease in no way will impact the speed of the fifth generation fighter's construction, and also Su-35 and SSJ 100 airplanes. "It will have no impact on dates for fulfillment of government orders," he added.



Source: 17.03.09, Interfax


KnAAPO: Information About Shifting Dates for Realization of PAK FA Project Is Wrong


Information that dates for realization of the Russian PAK FA fifth generation fighter project may be delayed yet again due to forthcoming massive layoffs at KnAAPO Yuriy Gagarin is wrong, The newspaper Nash Gorod (Our City) reports referring to a KnAAPO announcement.

It is recalled that according to a number of information agencies who are referring to a the words of the KnAAPO union representative, Pavel Arslanov, notification about reduction of part of the workforce reached the enterprise at the beginning of March. Layoffs are supposed to start in 3 months.

According to the KnAAPO deputy director, Sergey Ageev, the information being spread by the union has nothing in common with the reality. "We actually intend to optimize the strength of the workers over the first half year. We do such optimization every year. The most socially defended group of KnAAPO workers falls under the decrease. Optimization is underway owing to reorganization of the enterprise's ancillary departments. We intend to let go not more than 700 people in the coming 6 months. Primarily it is a question of workers who have reached retirement age," one of the plant's manager's reported.

In fact, KnAAPO management has refuted the words of Pavel Arslanov, who maintains that more than a thousand people fall under the cut-back and also as "the official reason for the decrease" names "a reduction of manufacturing workload," the newspaper writes.



Source: 17.03.09, Avia.RU

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 18 Mar 2009 07:52

Kartik wrote:
Sontu wrote:No, it is definately Su-35 or may be latest Su-35 BM(version without canard) .

see this at wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sukhoi_Su-35.jpg

carefully look at a small sized sensor at the root of vertical stabilizer in both the images and compare.


no. the picture of the aircraft under assembly had canted stabilizers. very canted. no Su-27 derivative has such canted stabs.


I was going to ask that question - is the "vertical Stab" canted. It looked canted to me when I first posted it. Also, if the stab is vertical then the camera has to be at the top of the stab. Finally, the spine seems to be rather depressed for a Su-30 derivative.

Krish,

Thx.


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