The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 18 Mar 2009 23:26

^^^ I beg to differ...but the Vertical Stab does not looks to be canted.
It is because of the angle at which shot was taken and also the position of the camera and overall framing of the subject at an angle..it's giving an illusion as being bit canted...which is not actually..i believe.

regarding the sloped/depressed spine has been a normal phenomena for the fisrt few version of Russian aircrafts and modified /upgraded versions normally has bulged spine..may be to increase of internal fuel capacity …what I have observed in few Mig and Su versions.

I would expect the PAKFA to have totally new shape of wings, all stabilizers with possibility of inward swept design features…learning’s from Su-47 Berkut design.

Regards,

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 19 Mar 2009 05:42

Translation credits Roy FC.

Military Reducing Expenses for GLONASS and Fifth Generation Airplane

The country's military leadership is promising to reduce costs for training, arms purchases, social payments and military reform. But they will reduce expenses for GLONASS, the creation of the fifth generation fighter and reform of the sergeants' service, the Vedomosti newspaper writes today.

Two huge arms programs were subjected to reductions, the military part of the GLONASS satellite navigation systems was cut by 2 billion rubles and the development of the fifth generation fighter by 938 million rubles. And the Sukhoy representative (developer of the fifth generation airplane) believes that plans for the aircraft's first flight before year's end are unchanged, the publication reports.

Source: 18.03.09, Avia.RU

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Mar 2009 06:06

1 Russian Ruble = 0.0293 US Dollars!

So, 938 million rubles is about 188 million USD.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Mar 2009 13:09

NRao wrote:1 Russian Ruble = 0.0293 US Dollars!

So, 938 million rubles is about 188 million USD.

Nope... if your 0.02 value is correct, it is actually around 27.48 million USD

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Mar 2009 17:30

Yup, u r right.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Mar 2009 17:38

Sontu wrote:^..

I would expect the PAKFA to have totally new shape of wings, all stabilizers with possibility of inward swept design features…learning’s from Su-47 Berkut design.

Regards,

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 25 Mar 2009 08:38

Translation credits: Roy FC

Viktor Khristenko: Russia Will Fly Fifth Generation Fighter This Year

Russia "will put" the fifth generation fighter "to wing" this year, the Russian Federation minister of industry and trade, Viktor Khristenko, reported in an interview for the magazine Itogi.

"This very year we "will put" the fifth generation "to wing" as difficult as it may be. Of course, it is tempting to delay it - it is difficult and there is not enough money, but if we yield to weakness, then the results will be catastrophic. Then no one would need these projects any longer. It's the market itself," Mr. Khristenko declared.

Source: 23.03.09, Avia.RU

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 25 Mar 2009 12:39

Although no body knows enough of the FGFA, but just wondering if there would it have any rear facing RADAR just like the Su-30 does ?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 25 Mar 2009 19:55

Su-30 related posts moved to the Su-30 thread.

P.S.: NRao and k prasad, thanks for the currency conversions.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Mar 2009 21:31

This is entirely for kicks - NO VALUE:

The following translated from Chinese has a extremely funny angle

. The article is about PAK-FA and FGFA - posted March 30, 2009. Nothing new in teh article, BUT, where ever the article mentions "Indian and Russia" it is translated into "China, India and Russia". The author adds "China" to the mix.

Starting with the title!!

China, Russia and India will begin the implementation of the joint development of fifth generation fighter program

Insecurity.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Apr 2009 18:02

Russia may offer Brazil license-based production of fifth generation fighter.

Russia is in discussions with noted Brazilian aircraft manufacturer Embraer for license- production of its fighter aircraft, including its fifth-generation PAK-FA fighter, a senior Russian government official said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

"We are discussing with the well-known Brazilian company Embraer the transfer of technology and the construction of facilities for the future licensed production of the aircraft, including the fifth-generation fighter," said Alexander Fomin, deputy director of the Federal Service on Military-Technical Cooperation.
The PAK-FA, referred to in India as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) is being developed by the Sukhoi design bureau, a component of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), in partnership with Indian aerospace giant Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Both these parties had signed a preliminary inter-governmental agreement in October 2007.

Russian sources have said that the first prototype of the aircraft will make its maiden flight before the end of 2009.

Russia and Brazil have already signed a series of agreements on military technology cooperation emphasizing the protection of intellectual property rights and technology secrets last year.

Russia has entered the Su-35 jet fighter as its candidate in an international tender for the supply of over 100 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force.

"We are actively participating in the Brazilian tender, which has been reopened. It involves over 100 fighter planes. Russia has made a bid in the tender with its Su-35 multirole fighter. The tender has stiff requirements, involving not only the sale, but also the transfer of technology. It is a key condition of the deal and Russia is ready to satisfy it," Fomin said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Apr 2009 19:16

Russia needs lot of funds, and is pawning a lot of her stuff. They did that with China and did not find a good partnership there, so they seem to be fishing.

What Brazil needs is tecnology.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Apr 2009 23:18

what we need is focus (support, and investment).

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 11 Apr 2009 19:33

Same news as Vipul has posted except that this one mentions Yakovlev bureau as participating in PAK-FA. Earlier it had been reported that the Yakovlev bureau had dropped out of the PAK-FA project.

Russia not Ruling Out Brazil's Participation in Licensed Production of Fifth Generation Fighter

At the present time the fifth generation airplane is being developed in Russia - the future tactical aircraft aviation complex (PAK FA, T-50, Article 701, fighter 21). The Russian fighter is being developed by a consortium which includes the Mikoyan, Yakovlev and Sukhoy design bureaus. The first flight of the PAK FA is planned for this year, and its series production, for 2012 - 2015. It also is planned to make the fighter available for export, the information agency recalls.

Source: 07.04.09, Avia.RU

Translation credits: Roy FC

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 11 Apr 2009 19:37

Translation credits to Roy FC.

Komsomol'sk Aircraft Builders Upgrading Combat Airplanes

Besides the upgrade of these combat aircraft serving Russia's air force, the Komsomol'sk aircraft builders are continuing work on the creation of the generation "4+" fighter. The Su-35-4 is a transitional stage to the fifth generation airplane in which design and engineering solutions of today's new development will be used.

It differs significantly from the two previous articles: many design changes have been introduced and unique capabilities for control of parameters have been included. After conclusion of the cycle of ground tests, the Su-35-4 fighter will undergo flight tests and be sent to the Sukhoy OKB development base as early as April for further studies of this aircraft's operating parameters.

Source: 03.04.09, Vostok-Media

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 13 Apr 2009 00:39

Interview of Alexey Federov - head of United Aircraft Corporation - "I hope that we come to create the fifth-generation lightweight fighter."

Original source (in Russian) here.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2009 01:21

"MiG will win"

Is there a "MiG" any longer? I thought they had all merged - in fact the PAK-FA involved the MiG too - in a lesser role perhaps.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 14 Apr 2009 09:00

Su-35, MKI, FX-2 deal related posts moved to the Su-30 thread.

krishnan, if you have nothing else to contribute, then do not post needless IB4TLs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2009 09:58

NRao wrote:"MiG will win"

Is there a "MiG" any longer? I thought they had all merged - in fact the PAK-FA involved the MiG too - in a lesser role perhaps.

Yes as a Design and Development organization they do exist , much like the other chaps , and they have been lobbing for a light fighter for some time after loosing to PAK-FA

UAC is a conglomerate of all russian civil and military makers in Russia.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 18 Apr 2009 23:18

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/6842/

Talks of how Pak-Fa is late on the block. Doubts about superiority over western designs

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 21 Apr 2009 23:25

Excellent summary of the history and development of PAK FA.

Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project

by

(Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator)

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Apr 2009 10:47

Russia not Ruling Out Brazil's Participation in Licensed Production of Fifth Generation Fighter

Did they discuss with us about adding a new partner?,i find no mention of any negotiations made in this regard with india,we have 50% stake in this project how can they override us in such important decisions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Apr 2009 12:10

narayana wrote:Russia not Ruling Out Brazil's Participation in Licensed Production of Fifth Generation Fighter

Did they discuss with us about adding a new partner?,i find no mention of any negotiations made in this regard with india,we have 50% stake in this project how can they override us in such important decisions.

The 5th Gen program has two parts

1 ) PAK-FA - Single seater 5th Gen Program funded by Russia for Russian Airforce
2 ) FGFA - Twin Seater Derivative of PAK-FA with changes made to suite Indian requirement and needs co-developed by India and Russia and funded majorly by India.

So it needs to be seen if Brazil is being offered a share in the twin seater FGFA program , well if they are willing to join then it would help in sharing the financial burden for this project.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 22 Apr 2009 19:35

Details are murky on that two pronged approach (FGFA/Pak-Fa). Seems like India may have to settle for the first (or may be the only) available variant.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 22 Apr 2009 21:27

Ideally for Russia they would want a design that can not just resupply their own Air Force but also be a success on the export market. I think the Russians will definitaly also build a Twin-seat version for themselves and the larger export market so the question is, how much different would the IAF jet be and is it worth the money to spend on R&D if the Russian/export model is for the most part suitable anyway... or would the money just go towards co-owning source codes and integrating indigenous components (I am not sure if anything in planning would even be better than the Russian parts).

Hm. (/Me thinks the Russians is smiling a bit too much...)

Sajith_J · Post by **Sajith_J** » 22 Apr 2009 22:17

dorai wrote:Ideally for Russia they would want a design that can not just resupply their own Air Force but also be a success on the export market. I think the Russians will definitaly also build a Twin-seat version for themselves and the larger export market so the question is, how much different would the IAF jet be and is it worth the money to spend on R&D if the Russian/export model is for the most part suitable anyway... or would the money just go towards co-owning source codes and integrating indigenous components (I am not sure if anything in planning would even be better than the Russian parts).

Hm. (/Me thinks the Russians is smiling a bit too much...)

Not sure about that, if they would have plans for a double seat from the start, why is there so much work on FGFAs airframe that we get it only by 2020/22? Also if you take a look at Russias latest fighter the Su 35, isn't it also a single seat aircraft? Russia seems not to believe in the benefit of two pilots and I also doubt that they build Pak Fa to be a success for exports. It won't be as cheap as Russian fighters normally are and which other countries then China Brazil and us would have the money and are willing to buy Russian fighters?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Apr 2009 22:20

Seems like India may have to settle for the first (or may be the only) available variant.

Why does it "seem"?

On the contrary, the RUians may have to settle for the twin seater. Since that variant should be better funded than the single seater PAK-FA. This assumes that the components that are common would be mature enough to be deployed in the FGFA. For, IF they are not, then there can be no PAK-FA either - unless India funds that too. So, what else is new?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 23 Apr 2009 00:50

JaiS wrote:Excellent summary of the history and development of PAK FA.

Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project

by

(Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator)

India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter.

Can gurus please explain how ground and air fight control system can be decisive in choosing single or twin-seater? Also I would appreciate if someone explains me what is a 'developed ground and air fight control system'?

thanks,
Abhijit

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 23 Apr 2009 01:56

Sajith_J wrote:
Not sure about that, if they would have plans for a double seat from the start, why is there so much work on FGFAs airframe that we get it only by 2020/22? Also if you take a look at Russias latest fighter the Su 35, isn't it also a single seat aircraft? Russia seems not to believe in the benefit of two pilots and I also doubt that they build Pak Fa to be a success for exports. It won't be as cheap as Russian fighters normally are and which other countries then China Brazil and us would have the money and are willing to buy Russian fighters?

Yeah but that's why I tried to focus on the export market.. the Russians want to sell aircraft in the future for sure and what they did with the SU-27 who was also a single-seater to begin with..what they did was to build a twin-seat version so it could be exported in greater numbers. Same with the SU-30MK, Malaysia, Indonesia and Venezuela all bought twin-seaters for instance.

That is why I am really wondering if the Russians still is not planning to do the same to their 5th gen jet and will essentially let India foot the bill for how to design this. Maybe it's all fair and so.. but I do believe Russia will offer a twin-seat 5th gen fighter to the global market and I also believe they will not allow India to export the Indian version. So I am curious as to what the 50/50 deal will deliver...

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 23 Apr 2009 04:11

NRao wrote: Why does it "seem"?

On the contrary, the RUians may have to settle for the twin seater. Since that variant should be better funded than the single seater PAK-FA. This assumes that the components that are common would be mature enough to be deployed in the FGFA. For, IF they are not, then there can be no PAK-FA either - unless India funds that too. So, what else is new?

Two constraints - Time and Money. By the time FGFA is available for exports, many would be flying the F-35 and possibly the F-22 (~2018-2020). When both western 5th gen fighters would be well matured, Pak-Fa would just enter limited series production. Ruskies would lose the export market big time.

And they are obviously going to charge India (as of now only India) all the extra expenses to design and develop the variant. Without clear market demands and a yet-to-be-proven product, Russians would obviously try to spend as little of THEIR money as possible.

FGFA should not become another Brahmos - where there is no exports apart from ones to India. Right now India is making no profits out of the Brahmos exports.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Apr 2009 05:23

Kailashji,

I am even more confused. I was hoping to get an explanation for "Seems like India may have to settle for the first (or may be the only) available variant." (Which would be the PAK-FA. But, what makes one think it MAY happen? Just curious - I was hoping for a link.)

On:
"exporting" FGFA: never heard of that.
"spending as little of THEIR money": how does that figure into the FGFA? They are spending (hopefully) on the PAK-FA. The PAK-FA is 100% funded by RU, the FGFA: 50-50 between the two nations.
"yet-to-be-proven": yup, most leading edge techs are like that - very, very high risks. Tremendously high when it comes to planes.
"Brahmos": Cannot compare the two. India, export or not, has made a good killing on that missile.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 23 Apr 2009 10:00

Kailash wrote:Details are murky on that two pronged approach (FGFA/Pak-Fa). Seems like India may have to settle for the first (or may be the only) available variant.

This claim contradicts what Mikhail Pogyosan has stated publically, the details of the two-pronged approach have been stated within this thread before. I wonder what makes you think if India will have to settle with a single-seater or, that the single-seater will be the only 5G plane coming out of this project.

Sajith_J wrote: Not sure about that, if they would have plans for a double seat from the start, why is there so much work on FGFAs airframe that we get it only by 2020/22?

There are different sources which put the date to be between 2015-2017, but none that I have seen which put the date for Indian version at 2022.

Sajith_J wrote:It won't be as cheap as Russian fighters normally are and which other countries then China Brazil and us would have the money and are willing to buy Russian fighters?

I am sorry, but could you please re-phrase that ?

Sajith_J · Post by **Sajith_J** » 25 Apr 2009 07:35

JaiS wrote: There are different sources which put the date to be between 2015-2017, but none that I have seen which put the date for Indian version at 2022.

I heard 2015 - 2018 is for Pak Fa the russian version and our version only around 2020, but at the moment there is nothing really clear about this project.

JaiS wrote:
Sajith_J wrote:It won't be as cheap as Russian fighters normally are and which other countries then China Brazil and us would have the money and are willing to buy Russian fighters?
I am sorry, but could you please re-phrase that ?

What I mean was that the Su 30 and Su35 costs around 30 - 40 mil $, that's why they are affordable for many countries. I think a 5. gen Pak Fa would cost at least 60 - 70 mil $ so the export market is very small and not every country that has money (like Arab nations) will buy it, because of the good relations to US.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 May 2009 07:57

Sajith_J wrote:I heard 2015 - 2018 is for Pak Fa the russian version and our version only around 2020, but at the moment there is nothing really clear about this project.

Can't be...Air Mashal Fali Major once said that IAF will have its first of FGFA by 2017...will add the source later.

Added later: Fifth Generation Indo-Russian Fighter Aircraft to be Ready by 2017

For the time being:
Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 May 2009 09:00

US buys Ukrainian fighter jets

Meanwhile, Deputy Prime Minister Sergey Ivanov announced today that flight tests of a fifth-generation fighter plane will take place this year, and production of the plane, which will supersede the Su-27, will begin next year.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 16 May 2009 02:23

Russian 5th-gen fighter to commence test flights by year-end
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mi ... ights.html

Indian FGFA

The Indian version has been designated the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and will be a derivative of the PAK FA.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," according to Ashok Baweja, erstwhile chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

After the meeting of the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja had said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007.

According to him, India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

Listing the capabilities of the aircraft design, Baweja said that it would have stealth features which allow a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise.' This facility allows engines to fly at supersonic speeds without engaging afterburners, which results in substantial savings in fuel consumption.

The aircraft's embedded weapons will have the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets. The design will also allow seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.

Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA would fly with the AL-37FU engine, but eventually will be powered by an engine with at least 15 to 20 per cent more power.

The FGFA is expected to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

According to Baweja, HAL will be contributing largely to composites, cockpits and avionics. The software will also be different.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:26

X-post from the MMRCA thread.

SaiK wrote:
Furthermore, pakfa and futuristic deals are for now a hype rather a deal. The specs don't even counter act with what the western blocks think its 5th gen and such features. There is a lot of catch ups.. and not withstanding, the russkies holds us by the b@lls where it hurts us more, further enhancing the dependency factor to greater than 80% all the time. Their handle on us is very hidden with wide spread agents and inside-jobers. But they do give us a sense of freedom, that is more virtual than actual imho.

If pakfa to be futuristic, a french help or EADS help could make it a clean deal. Are they willing to such open platform inviting some nato blocks into it, at the discretion of our choice.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:27

vipins wrote:
SaiK wrote:..............................................................
Furthermore, pakfa and futuristic deals are for now a hype rather a deal
................................
sir,any links for this claim??

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:28

SaiK wrote:its imho.. there is an inter gov agreement.. but nothing drafted for the specs. The specs again have to be drawn out of existing capabilities, and r & d happening now in russia. i dunno.. to what level we want to fund their research rather our own. we have no clear details of specs, and roles and responsibilities as to what we would do?

if its just another MKIzing.. then nothing great for our boosters that we need in this sector.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 01 Jun 2009 03:28

Parijat Gaur wrote:^^ Yes, nearly all the r&d work (except the avionics for Indian version) is carried out by Russia. But for that, no one but India is at fault. It were our baboos who delayed the signing of the agreement (and till then the basic designs and performance parameters were already fixed). However your statement that India "has no idea of the specs, roles and responsibilities" seems very unlikely. Do you really think that we would have agreed to fund "50%" of the project without asking for specs and projected capabilities of pak-fa?
But then again, like it is always in mrca thread, this discussion is going OT.