The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 22 Jan 2010 19:42

caesar wrote:THE PAK FA

http://themostfeared.blogspot.com/2010/ ... r-jxx.html

Photoshopped...I think.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jan 2010 19:46

caesar wrote:THE PAK FA

http://themostfeared.blogspot.com/2010/ ... r-jxx.html

meh, it's a fansite.

and that's an awful PS job.
how many more of these do we have to tolerate before the real thing is released !

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 22 Jan 2010 19:52

Rahul M wrote: how many more of these do we have to tolerate before the real thing is released !

If you count on the talks at KEYPUBLISHING FORUM.....the time is near....some one was talking about 26th Jan....If I remember correctly.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jan 2010 20:01

only they have been saying this month from 2008 !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2010 20:02

under the belly inlets like MKI/s34 does not mimic JSF/Raptor inlet design.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jan 2010 20:09

I know it may be news to some but strangely enough, sukhoi-30mki and F-22 also happen to be different aircrafts. the sukhoi family was even designed 20 years before the raptor and 30 years before the JSF.
sadly, due to poor financial condition sukhoi bureau couldn't afford a time-machine back then which is why they couldn't mimic the JSF/raptor inlet design.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2010 20:18

but mashallah the chinese have modifed the toothy J10 chin inlet in J10-2 into a DSI and likewise the JF17 bandar mk1 is a DSI from day1.

that shows china > russia in aerospace.

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 22 Jan 2010 20:58

caesar wrote:THE PAK FA

http://themostfeared.blogspot.com/2010/ ... r-jxx.html

Et tu ....?

For once, upon a raw and gusty day,
The fabled F22 trembling in it's wings,
PAKFA said to it, 'Dar'st thou, F22, now
Leap in with me into this angry vortex
And fly to yonder point?' Upon the word,
Challenged as it was, the F22 plungèd in
And bade the PAKFA follow. So indeed it did.

The currents roared, and they did buffet it
With trapezoidal wings, throwing it aside
And stemming it with agility of TVC.
But ere they could arrive the point proposed,
F22 cried, 'Help me, PAKFA , or I crash!'

PAKFA, as MIG21, it's great ancestor,
Did from the flames of Vietnam upon his shoulder
The fabled F86 bear, so from the angry vortex
Did PAKFA the tirèd F22. And this plane
Is now become a god, and PAKFA is
A wretched creature and must bend it's body
If F22 carelessly but nod on it?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 22 Jan 2010 21:14

Singha wrote:but mashallah the chinese have modifed the toothy J10 chin inlet in J10-2 into a DSI and likewise the JF17 bandar mk1 is a DSI from day1.

that shows china > russia in aerospace.

But the Russians have not done any major work on DSIs.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 22 Jan 2010 21:45

vijyeta wrote: Et tu ....?

For once, upon a raw and gusty day,
The fabled F22 trembling in it's wings,
PAKFA said to it, 'Dar'st thou, F22, now
Leap in with me into this angry vortex
And fly to yonder point?' Upon the word,
Challenged as it was, the F22 plungèd in
And bade the PAKFA follow. So indeed it did.

The currents roared, and they did buffet it
With trapezoidal wings, throwing it aside
And stemming it with agility of TVC.
But ere they could arrive the point proposed,
F22 cried, 'Help me, PAKFA , or I crash!'

PAKFA, as MIG21, it's great ancestor,
Did from the flames of Vietnam upon his shoulder
The fabled F86 bear, so from the angry vortex
Did PAKFA the tirèd F22. And this plane
Is now become a god, and PAKFA is
A wretched creature and must bend it's body
If F22 carelessly but nod on it?

Nice poetry...!

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 23 Jan 2010 05:24

Cross-posting from KEYPUBLICATION FORUM:

Originally posted by HEXPOP ::

According to the latest information, today PAK-FA, well ... T-50-1 prototype, did a taxi trial with taking off the front wheel and deploying a braking parachute.
Also, according to a witness - it is "flat ....; with only thickening around the cockpit, has canted trapezoid all-moving tails...; it looks strange"

::I cross-post because they claim to have INSIDERS

::

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 23 Jan 2010 06:55

Guess similar to Raptor with Delta wing.

e.g. http://vitinfo.com.vn/upload/Anh/AnhTie ... PAK-FA.jpg

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Jan 2010 07:52

That is NOT the PAK-FA. That is a single engined version, I think the Mig 1.42

The PAK-FA is a twin engined bird.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2010 08:15

From all these pics so far, we have neither seen yet a wing tunnel model nor a divertless design that is just not a raptoriski front and mkish back.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Jan 2010 08:27

sumshyam wrote:
According to the latest information, today PAK-FA, well ... T-50-1 prototype, did a taxi trial with taking off the front wheel and deploying a braking parachute.
Also, according to a witness - it is "flat ....; with only thickening around the cockpit, has canted trapezoid all-moving tails...; it looks strange"

Examples:

http://www.paralay.iboards.ru/download/ ... &mode=view

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 23 Jan 2010 09:13

NRao wrote: Examples:

http://www.paralay.iboards.ru/download/ ... &mode=view

I case of flat and strange look of PAK-FA...I do think that it can be a body lift aircraft so the wings can be short. I mean it will be close to main frame and vertical stabilizer like one in the above picture.

Anyhow....It is just an speculation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2010 11:23

The more interesting shape PAK-FA has the more keen all would be to see and understand the aerodynamics of it and would also reflect the effort SDB and Tsagi has put in.

If it turns out to be just another boring general Raptorski looks then it would be more of refined Copy/Paste job SDB/Tsagi has done.

Lets see if SDB folks were genuinely busy designing from scratch or just watched videos of Raptor in action and got inspired by it much like our Music Director of Bollywood.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2010 12:58

even if lifting body, the weight of weapons and fuel means a small wing doesnt give the intimidating raw T:W and super low wing loading a 5th gen A2A bird needs. so a big F22ish wing if they decide to keep vertical tailplanes or a trapezoidal if the tail is a JSF style V with no vertical and horizontals imo. imo they will want to keep both vertical and horizontal fins in rear to provide more control surfaces and some redundancy.

so I am expecting a raptorish shape...in current science its probably the only possible option.

but I would HATE a round JSF/MKIish traditional engine nozzles at the back. stealthy 2D TVC recessed outlets is what we want.

"fight the raptor like the raptor"

hope the AL41 engine is coming down fine....need 40,000lb reheat each and a high
dry thrust number of say 25,000lb - each

Pakfa painted dark grey has got to be the fastest baddest thing around if we are to deal with the chipanda J12+ from a position of superiority.

last night in my fever I was seeing dreams of a lone pakfa at dusk, screaming alone at mach2.2 which encounters a flight of 3 JF17 bandar's at 12-oclock-low and 150km away closing fast. without breaking stride the pakfa unleashes 3 bvr missiles at 80km head on range which scalps all three as the black beast stays level and roars past the exploding fireballs far below in a straight line into the gathering night

visions biraders visions...

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 23 Jan 2010 14:23

Singha wrote:
"fight the raptor like the raptor"

Pakfa painted dark grey has got to be the fastest baddest thing around if we are to deal with the chipanda J12+ from a position of superiority.

last night in my fever I was seeing dreams of a lone pakfa at dusk, screaming alone at mach2.2 which encounters a flight of 3 JF17 bandar's at 12-oclock-low and 150km away closing fast. without breaking stride the pakfa unleashes 3 bvr missiles at 80km head on range which scalps all three as the black beast stays level and roars past the exploding fireballs far below in a straight line into the gathering night visions biraders visions...

nice story.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 23 Jan 2010 14:28

Singhaji seems to be having lots and loads of dreams recently

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2010 14:31

escapist fantasies sire...by tuesday I will know if I need to change hive or worth it being a obedient bee here.

in such occasions the mind does wander...and sleep claims you .... one journey ends another begins.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 23 Jan 2010 15:35

Apart from speculations ,we wont be witnessing the final prototype before 2015.I believe there are around 50 speculative models of pakfa floating on different forums, .

Only what has been done on real basis is important. Like the ruskies have displayed their underdeveloped aesa for pakfa,if I am not wrong ,we haven't yet done anything significant,so far,because when it comes to a 5th gen. aircraft , it simply means a generation ahead, and we haven't seen any next gen avionics stuff from hal/drdro.

If it comes out in 2010, it would only, be final packaging ,without the real product inside.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jan 2010 03:02

Austin dada RU will play to their strengths for they always have for instance most of their designs have been arguably the best dog fighters designed till date and I see no reason why that will change in fact with adversaries like F-22 and JSF chances of a WVR contact are higher than before and even in BVR regime if detected and tracked F-22 and hopefully PAKFA will be slippery customers owing to their ability to SC over long periods .Having said that it would be interesting to note if RU retains the traditional 'rear view' mirrors on the frame of the canopy for dog fights . Given the emphasis on stealth I expect these to be dropped.

Airframe might obviously be similar to the raptor if it exploits the same philosophy for achieving stealth and obviously a twin engine geometry would mean a similar lay out for the internal weapons bay . I guess we already saw CM's link on Sukhoi chief talking about weight issues with rectangular 2DVC so I expect the PAKFA to use standard 2/3DVC circular nozzles .However it will be interesting to see if PAKFA opts for fixed inlet ramps like the JSF and F-22 or goes for the variable geometry ones for sustained flight at Mach 2+ speeds (again don't know how critical these are when it comes to achieving a low RCS , F-22 didn't employ these for the same reason ) .

I am not even expecting PAKFA to outclass the Raptor in each and every department , given our threat perception and what adversary will be fielding in next decade or two PAKFA will be head and shoulders above the best they will be able to come out with (unless RU exports PAKFA to lizard which probably might happen but not before IAF starts inducting it) .

F-22 will not see a foreign customer and even if its exported it will land up only with Israel or Japan . PRC might come out with their 5th Generation fighter but given their expertise in Radar systems and modern Jet engines they would be struggling to match the kind of products NIIP or Saturn have to offer at least for the current decade . Now I don't know how much IP PRC has already acquired via espionage or back channels but as we have seen in the past in complex engineering projects of this nature blue prints and IP theft can only help so far as far as making a 5th generation AC is concerned.

suraj p · Post by **suraj p** » 24 Jan 2010 07:15

What should we be proud of PAK-FA in this joint venture? (technology or pumping money)
Are we supplying any critical technology that both countries will use?
OR is this like those Ashok Leyland buses.

Ashok Leyland supplies buses to both Chennai MTC and Andhra Pradesh RTC.

Chennai MTC (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ld_bus.jpg)
APsRTC buses in AP : (http://www.apsrtc.in/images/Express.jpg )

Both agencies get same chassis and they diverge according to state traditions.

IS this going to be same story with PAK-FA.
That both RU and IN get chassis of PAK-FA. Our HAL/DRDO take their pride beautifying with weapons and integrating them to AWCS network?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 24 Jan 2010 08:43

here is a document....http://www.elara.ru/files/ous/annual/annual_2008.doc

in there, PAK-FA has been referred Su-50.

It is in Russian.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2010 09:01

negi wrote:However it will be interesting to see if PAKFA opts for fixed inlet ramps like the JSF and F-22 or goes for the variable geometry ones for sustained flight at Mach 2+ speeds

Few years back ( ~ 2005-06 ) the Russian Airforce Chief mentioned that they were facing some design/weight issue and due to which max speed has been restricted to ~ M 2.1 , since a higher speed ( i assume sustained ) would have required the use of special materials which was making the aircraft heavy and as per their experience for most tactical situations they do not need higher speed , so a compromise solution was reached to keep the max speed to M 2.1 and weight under control.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2010 09:05

Who ever updated the wiki, the design target for al41f is to be 45,000 lbf (200 kN) wet.

As soon as this puppy reaches the design target, we need our MKIs court this engine and get that upgrade asap., that way we can be assimilating the advanced combustion and crystal techs at a much faster rate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2010 09:47

MKI's fuselage cannot accomodate the AL41 engine diameter and neither I guess can the materials used in the TVC seals handle the higher temps . its not an option.

however some backporting of tech into a AL31FP-2 engine could happen in MLU...same as 404-IN20 getting some
414 techs like FADEC etc.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2010 10:16

Al-41F project does not exists any more its cancelled along with Mig-1.42 project.

They have derived Al-41F1 which will power the definitive PAK-FA with a reheat thrust of ~ 155kN ( ~ 18T )

The best hope for re engining the MKI is the 117S engine which will add ~ 2T ( ~142 kN ) of reheat thrust over the current AL-31FP that powers the MKI.

But the Su-35BM has a redesigned larger air intake to accommodate for greater airflow for the engine needs , so the likely hood of 117S getting retrofitted on existing MKI is not possible unless they make structural changes on Airintake not a simple garage job.

Most likely than not the IAF may continue using the existing AL-31FP through out its service life with moderate improvement where ever possible , IAF anyways never complained of lack of thrust and in emergency mode they can get the extra Ooomph for few minutes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jan 2010 11:15

you guys need to update the wiki then.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2010 21:35

The Mig-1.44 was a TD before the actual production Mig-1.42 would fly and would have been the Soviet Airforce definitive 5th Gen Fighter , its similar to LCA TD and the definitive LCA Mark 2.

But the entire project was canceled and Russian airforce in a renewed competition between Mig and Sukhoi choose Sukhoi PAK-FA proposal as Russian 5th Gen Fighter.

If any one is interested in reading about Russian 5th Gen fighter program beyond wiki chiki thing , I would suggest reading "Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan MFI: Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Demonstrators" by Yefim Gordon.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2010 03:52

I am not even expecting PAKFA to outclass the Raptor in each and every department , given our threat perception and what adversary will be fielding in next decade or two PAKFA will be head and shoulders above the best they will be able to come out with (unless RU exports PAKFA to lizard which probably might happen but not before IAF starts inducting it) .

I hope India adds a condition to deny RU the rights to export this bird or the engines to PRC. Often the development partners add such conditions to the contract.

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 25 Jan 2010 07:53

Austin wrote: If any one is interested in reading about Russian 5th Gen fighter program beyond wiki chiki thing , I would suggest reading "Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan MFI: Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Demonstrators" by Yefim Gordon.

Any links ? couldnt find one myself.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jan 2010 07:57

check PM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jan 2010 07:58

aditp wrote:
Austin wrote: If any one is interested in reading about Russian 5th Gen fighter program beyond wiki chiki thing , I would suggest reading "Sukhoi S-37 and Mikoyan MFI: Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter Demonstrators" by Yefim Gordon.
Any links ? couldnt find one myself.

http://www.amazon.com/Sukhoi-S-37-Mikoy ... 1857801202

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jan 2010 08:27

Just one off - topic @ Rahul M.

Got that....I have got a distinct feeling that you are always online...

!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jan 2010 08:43

my account is almost always logged in. I'm personally not.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jan 2010 17:17

So there are talks of first flight to commence by tomorrow or day after tomorrow.

Let it be a Republic day gift to India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2010 17:25

I want to see something like the atd-x

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2010 17:27

why the long and weak nose. it looks more a stealth version of the Bae hawk.