The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 11 Oct 2008 21:45

Rahul M wrote:so why did you say RCS then ?

anyway, IR reduction is done by cooling down the exhaust gases by mixing it with air at normal temperature.
btw, we have had a report on DRDO's work on reducing exhaust temp for rotor engines. guess what that would be used for !

Just a note (OT):

application of a good high quality IR suppressors fitted to the end of Turboshaft leads to severe degradation in the maximum altitude reached or payload carried at high altitudes. You could lose a few thousand feet of attainable altitude with a IR supressor fitted to the exhaust. In other words, while the same application might not lead to degradation in performance in the plains, its use in the high mountains needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

-Vivek

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Oct 2008 05:10

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Rahul M wrote:so why did you say RCS then ?

anyway, IR reduction is done by cooling down the exhaust gases by mixing it with air at normal temperature.
btw, we have had a report on DRDO's work on reducing exhaust temp for rotor engines. guess what that would be used for !
Just a note (OT):

application of a good high quality IR suppressors fitted to the end of Turboshaft leads to severe degradation in the maximum altitude reached or payload carried at high altitudes. You could lose a few thousand feet of attainable altitude with a IR supressor fitted to the exhaust. In other words, while the same application might not lead to degradation in performance in the plains, its use in the high mountains needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

-Vivek

AFAIK it would also affect the maximum speed that the craft can attain as well. It would certainly not be able to engage afterburners for speed darts or for sudden accelaration if it has IR suppressors as it beats the very aim of having em. The maximum that it would be able to use would be the maximum dry power setting....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Oct 2008 06:36

anand, while what you say might be true (I really don't know) vivek is talking about turboshafts, i.e engines primarily used in rotorcraft. they don't use afterburners anyway !

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 12 Oct 2008 07:27

Thank Rahul,
I do know that he is talking about turboshafts (used in rotorcrafts).
Having said that though this is the PAK FA thread and I onlee wanted to make my point...which btw I know is true.

IR stealth and afterburners are directly related as with current technology there is no way you can hide a 10ft flame coming out of a nozzle...

Please check the below link especially on pages 2 and 3 for more detail.

AFAIK the MCA was also suggested with non-afterburning turbofans.

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today ... rners.html

wesley · Post by **wesley** » 27 Dec 2008 20:00

There appear to be some news reports in the Russian press, claiming that the PAK-FA prototype is expected to make its first flight in August 2009. According to the translations provided below, three airframes have already been built - although not all of them are necessarily flight test articles.
http://www.royfc.com/acft_news.html

We'll have to see if the Russians can stick to a timetable for development.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Dec 2008 20:56

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec ... =ADA392647
Klimov, Anatoly

This report results from a contract tasking Institute for High Temperature - RAS (IVTAN) as follows: Plasma assisted engine combustion is a newly developed field of basic science that brings together the fields of engine combustion physics and plasma physics. This project is devoted to a fundamental study of optimal regimes of stimulated burning of engine fuel/air mixtures by means of structural, non-equilibrium plasma formations (plasmoids). MTC, IVT RAS has significant experience in this field, and has produced breakthrough experimental results. For the first time, we have obtained stable engine combustion, stimulated by streamer HF discharge of a very poor fuel/air engine mixture (Argon: Propane=9:1), in a gas mixture engine flow. In addition, we have experimental results in gas engine flows of advanced mixtures with plasma formations. We plan to continue our research in the field of plasma assisted engine combustion with non-equilibrium plasmoids. These plasmoids will be created by highly efficient plasma generators (PG) of the following types: PG HF for creation of streamer corona discharge; PG- jet, plasma generator of erosive plasma jet; PG-Comb. Combined discharge could be created by combined PG (PG HF+ PG-jet) in a repetitive pulsed mode, and the main plasma parameters can be changed independently. Electron concentration can be controlled by the PG-jet, and the electron temperature can be controlled by the external HF electric field. The main goals of this work are to study the following: optimal radical generation in an engine fuel/air mixture by plasmoids; stability of the burning of the engine fuel/air mixture in an engine gas flow stimulated by plasma formations; advanced mixtures of engine fuel in an engine gas flow by structural plasmoids.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login ... er=1420629
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0963-0252/16/1/020

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 27 Dec 2008 23:49

"He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter."

Could some one pl.explain why we are going for a 2 seater. The news article said something about a longer range ?. Other countries, e.g. the US is moving towards pilotless aircraft.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Dec 2008 23:54

Guddu wrote:"He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter."

Could some one pl.explain why we are going for a 2 seater. The news article said something about a longer range ?. Other countries, e.g. the US is moving towards pilotless aircraft.

Going through the previous pages would help you. A reason for twin seater aircraft is that as a Stealth Fighter/Bomber it'll need to undertake long missions where fatigue would be a big fighter.
Russia possibly needs the PAK FA for completely different Strategic reasons and pilot less aircraft's are another issue altogether.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 30 Dec 2008 09:31

Fifth Generation Airplane Will Begin Flights in August

The fifth generation airplane will begin flight in the summer of next year, Russia's air force commander-in-chief, Aleksandr Zelin, announced to journalists.

"I visited Komsomol'sk-on-Amur this year, looked at how work is going, and I think that in the very near future I will report to the Russian Federation military industrial complex's management about the readiness of this airplane for tests," he noted, expressing hope that the airplane will be lifted into the air on 12 August 2009.

According to A. Zelin, there are no problems and reasons for non-fulfillment of this plan. "I don't see any financial, management or manufacturing reasons for non-fulfillment of this plan," the CinC emphasized.

The basic requirements which are being put forth for the fifth generation combat airplane are high effectiveness during the destruction of aerial, ground, surface and submarine targets; availability of an all-around information system; mastery of cruise flight regimes at supersonic speeds; decrease of the airplane's visibility in the radar and infrared regions; ability for all-aspect firing at targets in a dog fight, and also for multichannel missile firing during combat at long range; automation of aircraft information and jamming systems control.

Moreover, the new airplane is supposed to have a combat autonomy owing to the installation in the single-place airplane's cockpit of a tactical situation display with the ability for mixing information (that is, the simultaneous output and mutual overlay of "images" in the same scale from different sensors.) The aircraft also is supposed to be equipped with a system of telecode information exchange with external sources and an automated control system for up-to-date resolution of tactical missions.

Source: 26.12.08, RBK

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 30 Dec 2008 09:34

Three Fifth Generation Airplanes for Russian Federation Air Force Already Undergoing Tests

Russia's air force already is testing three fifth generation airplanes, the Russian Federation air force commander-in-chief, General-Colonel Aleksandr Zelin, reported on Friday to journalists.

"This year we are testing three fifth generation aircraft. They are in one or the other stage of readiness," he said.

Source: 26.12.08, RIA-Novosti

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Dec 2008 12:42

*deleted*

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 30 Dec 2008 13:06

so the prototypes are undergoing structural testing before the flight tests. Good news.

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Dec 2008 15:12

look like video of the nozzle of PAK-FA

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=07Lgklyni4w

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Dec 2008 17:22

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Dec 2008 17:31

krishnan, wrong thread. (thanks for the update though)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2008 19:27

so, we did have a manufacturing deal only with the russkies on the pak-fa? how much of these testing news, Indian money is involved? how about the technology intellectual properties?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Dec 2008 19:41

saik, India's deal is supposed to be for the 2 seat version. this is the 1 seater.
basic core components will be common of course but there should still be enough to learn something on the job.

nash · Post by **nash** » 31 Dec 2008 09:16

As PAK-FA is a 50:50 proportion deal in terms of funding,engineering and IP.
So may be india get the design details of the aircraft and we can use that design spec. in MCA.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 31 Dec 2008 13:28

Brahmos was also fifty fifty in which india did 100% of buying while russians kept the engine and seeker technology

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 31 Dec 2008 13:31

Rahul M wrote:saik, India's deal is supposed to be for the 2 seat version. this is the 1 seater.
basic core components will be common of course but there should still be enough to learn something on the job.

will it be suggestible to buy the Russian single seater version till production of 2 seater start up?AFAIK the twin seater will come up only somewhere around 2020

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 10 Jan 2009 13:42

american journalist writes about the PAK-FA program wrt the F-22 without mentioning India [Brazil comes as a footnote]
the Weekly Standard - Just Like US(AF)?

It however does quote many statements

There will also be few new-age on-board systems in the avionics suite.".......these on-board systems might not be ready when the first prototype aircraft flies and would only come on line later. .......the program may slow down or come to a halt altogether while industry tries to finish developing these on-board systems,".........Development of the avionics and radar components will require a significant investment in Russia's electronics industry sector

aren't these the systems India is supposed to work on as part of the program

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Jan 2009 22:33

aren't these the systems India is supposed to work on as part of the program

For the Indian PAK-FA (BTW, the Indian acronym seems to be FGFA - Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft), which - from reports - does not seem to have too much in common with the Russian PAK-FA.

But, that aside, this article (IF true) has a few very borthersome items. PESA and no AESA. That should impact the M/MRCA too - in fact I could go out on a limb and state that IF the MiG-"35" has no AESA, that MiG cannot be even in the selection process.

Furthermore, India has not signed anything nor send any funds to RU - or have they? My gut feel as of today is that India will wait to see what will be provided for the M/MRCA and see if some of it can be moved (legally) to the MCA. My feel is that the MCA is further down the road than we are lead to believe (my guess). I really think that the a decision will have to be made on the FGFA in a year or so. IF RUians cannot produce a good AESA or an engine on time then FGAF with RU is of no use.

But, thanks for that article, nice find. But, I am not too sure how much to believe it.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 11 Jan 2009 01:57

Hiten wrote:american journalist writes about the PAK-FA program wrt the F-22 without mentioning India [Brazil comes as a footnote]
the Weekly Standard - Just Like US(AF)?

IMO classic psy-op. He's in the position of denial, like nothing knows about Indo-Russian cooperation on PAKFA at all.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 11 Jan 2009 02:18

Igorr wrote:
Hiten wrote:american journalist writes about the PAK-FA program wrt the F-22 without mentioning India [Brazil comes as a footnote]
the Weekly Standard - Just Like US(AF)?
IMO classic psy-op. He's in the position of denial, like nothing knows about Indo-Russian cooperation on PAKFA at all.

Igorr, could you describe what they were discussing in the Youtube video posted a few posts above, on the PAK-FA nozzle?

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 12 Jan 2009 19:35

Kartik wrote:
Igorr wrote: IMO classic psy-op. He's in the position of denial, like nothing knows about Indo-Russian cooperation on PAKFA at all.
Igorr, could you describe what they were discussing in the Youtube video posted a few posts above, on the PAK-FA nozzle?

They show Klimov-Salut's all directional thrust vectoring nozzle however with modernized 4th gen Salut's Al-31FM-1 engine. The nozzle indeed will be installed on 5th gen PAKFA but on a different engine, now developed by Saturn, Salut and Klimov. Al-31FM1 with this nozzle will be used for 4th gen planes modernisation. Appart with that the viedeo has much blah-blah about Salut's manufacture .

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 17 Jan 2009 03:04

Isn't the engine that is going on PAK-FA, an after-burning turbofan????? The Russians could have built a good military turbofan like EJ200, ofcourse with much more thrust. The limited stealth features associated with EF typhoon is said to be due to the non-afterburning engines! But, it must also be noted that both F-22 and F-35 use after-burning engines!!!!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Jan 2009 04:31

Igorr wrote:They show Klimov-Salut's all directional thrust vectoring nozzle however with modernized 4th gen Salut's Al-31FM-1 engine. The nozzle indeed will be installed on 5th gen PAKFA but on a different engine, now developed by Saturn, Salut and Klimov. Al-31FM1 with this nozzle will be used for 4th gen planes modernisation. Appart with that the viedeo has much blah-blah about Salut's manufacture .

thank you Igorr. its interesting that the PAK-FA will indeed feature a regularly shaped nozzle, instead of the flat type on the F-22..I wonder what features it'll need to reduce its IR signature..

Kumar_I · Post by **Kumar_I** » 20 Jan 2009 04:26

Swords and Shields: Russia bets on PAK FA

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year.
by Ariel Cohen
Washington (UPI) Jan 16, 2009
Moscow continues to pursue a Sukhoi-based fifth-generation fighter. After five years of effort, Russia finally found an international partner for the development project. In 2007 India entered an agreement to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on the Sukhoi.
The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA -- standing for Advanced Frontline Aviation Aircraft System -- is a stealth-enabled fighter jet designed to compete with the American Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Aircraft and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor. Russian air force watchers already christened it "Raptorsky," after the F-22 Raptor, with which it is supposed to compete.

The developers describe the T-50 PAK FA as having excellent maneuverability, supersonic cruising speed, long range and high protective properties. PAK FA will have a takeoff weight of 20 tons, which falls between the takeoff weight of the two American competitor airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons).

The new fighter -- a medium version -- will have a traditional wing form, though the dramatic-looking reverse-delta wing of the Su-47 Berkut influenced the Russian fighter's designers.

The Russian fifth-generation fighter is supposed to make its first test flight this year. The testing dates have been postponed from the end of 2008, as had been previously announced by Sergei Ivanov, the Russian deputy prime minister in charge of defense production.

Some Russian spokesmen promised deployment of the T-50 in 2013, but according to the earlier statements by Sukhoi CEO Mikhail Pogosyan, the new Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter might enter mass production by 2015.

According to Russian sources, the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will incorporate technology from the two experimental predecessors: the Su-47 and the MiG Project 1.44.

The flagships of the Russian aerospace technology -- Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Instrument Building Scientific Research Institute in Zhukovskiy, the Ural'sk Optical and Mechanical Plant in Yekaterinburg, the Polet firm in Nizhniy Novgorod and the Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute in Moscow -- were selected to develop the avionics suite for the fifth-generation airplane.

NPO Saturn has been determined to lead the work on the engines. The Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association has begun construction of the fifth-generation fighter at its renowned Komsomol'sk-on-Amure Chkalov plant where most Sukhoi fighters are made.

However, considering the current economic recession and the track record of delayed deadlines, the Russian fifth-generation fighter may stay on paper for a longer time. This would give Washington and its allies sufficient time to launch mass production of F-35s, deploy them on American bases and fulfill orders from international customers such as Britain, the Netherlands and Israel.

The F-35 is expected to enter service no later than 2012, while the Russian Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA is certain to be in mass production by that time.

The future may not be bright for the next generation of the Russian fighter. Many Western defense experts believe Russia's fourth-generation fighter jets cannot withstand the U.S. stealth-enabled tandem of F-35 and F-22, which offer high maneuverability and near invisibility to surface radars because of advanced radar suppression equipment. Moreover, U.S.-based simulations and tests suggest that the stealth-enabled fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 can defeat any current aircraft, including the Raptorsky.

-- (Ariel Cohen, Ph.D., is a senior research fellow in Russian and Eurasian studies and international energy security at the Catherine and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute at The Heritage Foundation.)

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Swords_ ... A_999.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2009 04:50

The PAK-FA seems destined to meet a similar fate. The prototype will fly sometime within the next 12 to 18 months, but -- like the F-22A -- it seems that these demonstration flights will meet almost none of the Russian Air Force's (VVS) operational requirements.

Russian industry representatives close to the program tell THE WEEKLY STANDARD that "the radar to be flown in the aircraft from NIIP design bureau will be a variant of the same Irbis-E passive electronically scanning array (PESA) radar technology that is in the Sukhoi Su-35 Super Flanker and not the next-generation active array (AESA) that program requirements call for. The engine will be the Saturn/Lyulka 117S modernised derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F-Series 3 engine and not the next-generation AL-41F1 design. There will also be few new-age on-board systems in the avionics suite."

this is from hiten's link..

anyone care for defying this, with some hot link to disprove these, especially AESA!?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 20 Jan 2009 07:42

When the FGFA specifications do come out in clear terms, what would interest me most is the range of the aircraft. essentially if you are going to make a 2 seater version of the PAK-FA (without re-designing), the extra space for the second seat is going to be at the expense of fuel space and hence range is impacted...I am pretty sure this will be taken into consideration during the design of the 2 seater PAK-A to ensure range is not brought down significantly...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2009 08:04

The development of the PAK-FA will take a real long time. Check this 1998 article on "F-22 Design Evolution". The US struggled to reach what the F-22 is today. IIRC they went thru' some 10 designs in 10 years!

The issue is not if the PAK-FA will fly, but how close will the flying testbed will be to the staff requirements. Bet they will not be close.

My guess is that India will get her FGFA in 2020 at the earliest and it will not be a fulfledged bird.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 Jan 2009 11:28

The US struggled to reach what the F-22 is today. IIRC they went thru' some 10 designs in 10 years!

I have no idea how many of these actually made it past the design stage and actually flew (apart from the YF-23 and f-22). The russians certainly managed to fly a couple of their earlier designs, the berkut and the MFI (that was some 10 years ago iirc). In either case, India does not need a 5th gen bird ASAP, MKI, LCA and MRCA types along with upgraded baaz/Vajra should keep the neigborhood thugs in check for the near future.

We'll see what happens this year though, the Russians have been promising something for many years, but it was only in 2007 that they actually got a promise of cool dineros from their sugardaddy - India

regards,
CM.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2009 21:50

I have no idea how many of these actually made it past the design stage and actually flew

I think only one did, but that one made the difference. The point being that like in most cases is goal post kept moving (as new techs came in too).

The russians certainly managed to fly a couple of their earlier designs, the berkut and the MFI

Apples and oranges IMHO. (The US also flew a "berkut" long back with lesser techs.) But, although both "flew" neither one really made it to the front line. Which actually brings up the point that the article was seeming to make: it takes a few iterations before a plane is acceptable to an AF. The article, as I see it, is not a knock on the Russians, it just lays out the truth - that a plane such as this will take about 10 years to mature.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2009 22:07

graduation is elementary.. we still need to see in pakfa, the following technology be proven that is not necessary to take to flight with the final version.

1. Stealth skins
2. Advanced avionics
3. AESA radar with stealth mode
4. Internal Weapons bay
5. Super cruise
6. Advanced weapons delivery platform - net.centric ops.
..

many of these tech need not be on pak-fa.. the su35 is good enough platform to be used as test bed. but, so far we have got to see only the TVC of Al31 series. Al41 has not made up to the news yet, that is supposed to supercruise the su35s without using afterburners.

on the stealth skins, no word or even a psy ops on shape based deflection or absorption technologies.. also, note that raptor's passive skins capture radar signals and feed them live to FCR radar.

it has a terra flop mission computer as well.

it would be silly if we just compare raptor to any modified platform., unless the specs are out.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 20 Jan 2009 23:50

Talking of stealthy skin surface, what purpose do these perforations serve (pic is of su-34, posted on Su-30 thread)

Kartik wrote: thank you Igorr. its interesting that the PAK-FA will indeed feature a regularly shaped nozzle, instead of the flat type on the F-22..I wonder what features it'll need to reduce its IR signature..

My opinion is it wont be very stealthy in terms of IR. Another thing that matters is the length of that TVC segment and how it protrudes beyond the body of the craft - IRST pods should light it up like a Christmas tree.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 21 Jan 2009 07:09

Raoji,

I get your point in terms of the Pakfa not being productionized for at least another 10 years or so. The Russians officially have said no less, in this sense the article hardly offers anything new.

My point is that the Russkies (despite economic and political upheavals) have not exactly been sitting on their rears. Since the late 90s we have seen some decent and innovative stuff from them despite limitations not intrinsic to their tech capability.

Btw, it would be a mistake to put the X-29 and the Berkut on the same level. The berkut was/is considerably more developed, and is much bigger. The only thing in common is the FSW. The berkut was and is a TD for 5th gen features and exhibits the following technologies that are patently gen 5:
1) Internal Bay
2) Super Cruise
3) RCS reduction measure (heavy use of composites, shaping, angled twin fins, RAM)

As far as the time line goes, to reiterate, IAF hardly needs a gen 5 bird in the near future.

Regards,
CM.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 21 Jan 2009 08:43

Kartik wrote: thank you Igorr. its interesting that the PAK-FA will indeed feature a regularly shaped nozzle, instead of the flat type on the F-22..I wonder what features it'll need to reduce its IR signature..

My opinion is it wont be very stealthy in terms of IR. Another thing that matters is the length of that TVC segment and how it protrudes beyond the body of the craft - IRST pods should light it up like a Christmas tree.

whatever it is, it will be the best in the subcontinent it will be miles ahead than any paki or Chinese stuff.and definetly a big advantage for india,i think it will be too early to compare it with F-35,we are not going to fight a war with the Americans in near future any how

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jan 2009 19:23

A recent issue of IDR had a pic of the Russian Phazatron AESA radar (MIG-35),which had stealth coatings apart from a plasma sheild within the nosecone.The radar has already been developed and will be available on the MIG-35 for the MMRCA contest.There is no question that an AESA radar larger than this one for the MIG-35 will be available on the PAK-FA.

The key development for the future of this century for future fighters would be directed energy laser weapons,small enough to fit on bomber and large fighter sized aircraft as the US DARPA is doing.AWST has an article on this two issues ago on recent breakthroughs.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 21 Jan 2009 20:16

I don't know how it functions, but plasma shield sounds like something that could be easily detected if the technology catches upto it.
Then any aircraft having it will be easily detected.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jan 2009 20:35

how is that possible (radar coating for nosecone)? would it not interfere with radar functions? even i assume that it could transmit, then what about the receives?

-->are the receivers kept separate ? on the wings and rudders? there would be a big loss in transmission to the radar microprocessor then.!! may be they need the receives be converted to optical signals and sent thru fiber optics.

==
btw, that would mimic raptor's passive wing/fuselage/skin based passive receivers to their super computing devices for scan and track functions.

paging dileep saar?