The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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negi
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Postby negi » 19 Feb 2008 22:47

Heh.. western engine that too in AL-41 class I guess there is only one in that class i.e. P&W F119 which imo Unkil wont even show to anyone let alone selling it .

To be realistic our contribution to PAK-FA would be on similar lines to the Su-30 MKI but on definetly to a higher level wrt Avionics, and who knows may be FADEC for the engine ,incorporating modules from MMR/LCA Radar and extensive use of composites for the MKI version would be possible (courtsey LCA).

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Postby Katare » 19 Feb 2008 22:52

negi wrote:Heh.. western engine that too in AL-41 class I guess there is only one in that class i.e. P&W F119 which imo Unkil wont even show to anyone let alone selling it .


Last year that's what people were saying about AESA radar technology......so you never know

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Postby rrao » 19 Feb 2008 23:20

JCage wrote:Thing is that HAL is not exactly majorly into R&D at the system level.



JC sir,

you have hit the bull's eye. That is the crux of the problem with HAL.

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Postby JCage » 20 Feb 2008 00:04

Thx!

Imho, HAL needs a very strong focus on R&D with spending to match, even if it appears to replicate stuff done at DRDO labs. Over time, this will only help India and HAL as they are the frontline integration and manufacturing firm for India. If HAL gets the core R&D going, they will find it much easier to both absorb TOT whether from India or abroad and work from it to make derivatives in short time frames.

Qn for you, does HAL seem to recognise this and is R&D more and more a focus? And what are the users perceptions of HALs increasing focus on quality?

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Postby abhijitm » 23 Feb 2008 15:25

paging veterans...

do you honestly think that, in this current chill in indo-rus relationship, this PAK-FA project will be a success? I highly doubt.

IMHO we should not bank on this fighter. Get Tejas out and prepare for MCA. Count on french and get Rafale in fleet.

If PAK-FA turns out success then its a huge bonus but DO NOT envisage strategic plans just based on PAK-FA.

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Postby Ranvijay » 23 Feb 2008 17:07

^ We put in 5 billion dollars into this. And the Gorshkov/Brahmos engine fiasco was well known by the time the contract was signed. I am pretty sure we will not let that happen again.

Then again, a few Natashas delivered to some high level politician can make them buy an entire consignment of "elephant flying" flight manuals. Who knows...

Good thing our economy is booming. 5 bill won't matter that much, I shudder to think what might have happened to us if this had happened in the 90's.

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Postby Sumeet » 23 Feb 2008 20:39

JCage wrote:Thx!

Imho, HAL needs a very strong focus on R&D with spending to match, even if it appears to replicate stuff done at DRDO labs. Over time, this will only help India and HAL as they are the frontline integration and manufacturing firm for India. If HAL gets the core R&D going, they will find it much easier to both absorb TOT whether from India or abroad and work from it to make derivatives in short time frames.

Qn for you, does HAL seem to recognise this and is R&D more and more a focus? And what are the users perceptions of HALs increasing focus on quality?


I am aware that HAL so far has not been into major R&D at the system level but thats changing. Check this report from Lok Sabha,

http://164.100.24.207/committeereports/ ... report.pdf

Page 16/93 on your Adobe Reader
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)

Autonomy has been granted to HAL in decision making and entering into joint ventures and co-development arrangement with foreign vendors and private sector. HAL is a Mini Ratna-Category 1 Company with autonomy and powers delegated accordingly. The Apex Committee on conferment of Navratna status to select Central Public Sector Enterprises in its meeting chaired by Cabinet Secretary on 13.2.2007 has recommended conferment of Navratna status to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Department of Public
Enterprises is taking further action to issue notification in this regard. With the notification, HAL will have enhanced autonomy and delegation of powers.

The Board of Directors of HAL is fully empowered to take all decisions pertaining to investments, personnel and other business related issues. Ministry’s approval is required only in case of new programmes, where the commitment from the Defence Services/ Government is necessary.


15. The Ministry was asked again to give break up of amount spent by each DPSU on R&D, they supplied the following information:

“(i) Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) HAL has nine R&D centres established for design & development of combat aircraft, helicopters, aero engines, gas turbines, engine test beds, aircraft communication and navigation systems and 13 mechanical system accessories. The R&D centres are equipped with modern facilities, backed by competent engineers and designers having requisite experience in various disciplines of aeronautics.



Code: Select all

Data for HAL is as follows:

                                                  2003-04     2004-05    2005-06
R&D Expenditure                                    313.81     306.63      433.58
(Rs. in crore)% of R&D Expenditure                   8.25       6.76        8.12


Now with HAL order book to swell in future, [dhruv, MRCA, PAK-FA, more MKIs, LCA] I think they will be able to invest significant amount on yearly basis. Govt. if required can be roped in to pay some amount and a HAL-foreign company JV can pull off a nice 5th generation engine by 2018, if not before. They have already got some taste of engine development through a JV with foreign partner [Shakti engine] its about time they take a plunge into 5th generation fighter engine development. [Their order books will ensure they will have a lot of money in future]

Also, the report says on page 18/93:

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has a policy of spending 2% of its sales or 20% of its profits, whichever is higher, towards R&D.



Just curious, What do you think of merging GTRE with HAL engine division ?

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Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2008 23:43

I feel the sticks should be at either sides like the Rafale. Some of the french stuffs are very likely in Indian minds.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... ace_01.jpg

The F-35 variants have been designed very well.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... index.html

These are developed based on the past experiences, that can't be trashed even for considering pak-fa-mki.

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PAK-FA cancelled?

Postby Nitesh » 13 Apr 2008 11:38

I got this info while googling just cross posting, gurus please clarify

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... ?p=1238724

Russia's next-generation fighter project cancelled

MOSCOW, April 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russian air force commander-in-chief Aleksandr Zelin has announced the cancellation of the $20-billion PAK-FA program after 20 years of escalating costs, technological glitches and redesigns failed to produce a single prototype aircraft.

The PAK-FA, once billed as Russia's next-generation fighter, had consumed $13.9-billion. The estimated cost of each aircraft had soared to $87.2-million from an original target of $30-million.

"It's had a long and troubled history," said Alexei Arbatov, a senior Duma official who heads the lower house committee for defense.

The PAK-FA, a new generation fighter aircraft concept, was designed to be comparable to both the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II and has been overtaken by the need to strengthen Russia's strategic nuclear forces.

Acknowledging that the PAK-FA no longer fit into the requirements of Russia, the Air Force said it would rather spend the money on an overhaul of its aviation system. If approved by the Federal Assembly, the funds would be directed instead to buy over 400 additional SU-34, SU-35 and other aircraft and to upgrade and modernize 1,400 aircraft already in service. Surface-to-air missiles also would be a priority.

"It's about having an effective deterrent force," said Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin. "It's a big decision. We know it's a big decision, but it's the right decision."

The end of the PAK-FA also reflects an acknowledgement by the Ministry of Defence that it simply cannot afford all the programs it wants. The move underscores the fact that the Ministry of Defence must begin economizing as the cost of new weapon systems increase and demands on military spending grow, industry analysts said.

The Air Force would have spent $20-billion on the PAK-FA program through 2012 without getting aircraft significantly more capable than the upgraded SU-35 it already plans to buy, Air Force officials said.

Some officials of the State Duma reacted angrily to the cancellation.

"I am outraged by the decision to terminate the PAK-FA program given that the Air Force has long argued that it is a critical weapons system that plays a pivotal role in our defence," said State Duma deputy Vladimir Medinsky. "What has changed? And how does the military plan to make up for the lost capabilities?"

Alexei Arbatov, Deputy Chairman of the Defence Committee of the State Duma, said the decision "reflects the difficulty that the services are facing with the cost of modernization requirements now coming to the fore."

The cancellation was a blow to the PAK-FA's prime contractors, Sukhoi and NPO Saturn.

A senior Duma official said the Ministry of Defense expects to have to pay a $450-million to $680-million termination fee to Sukhoi and NPO Saturn.

The program's elimination, however, could benefit the two companies. The Air Force now plans to pour more money into the SU-34 and SU-35, and ramp up the upgrade of aircraft already in service which would keep both companies busy for the foreseeable future.

If its true really sad :(

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Postby Raymond » 13 Apr 2008 12:54

Most probably a prank.

Just on 3rd April RIA NOVOSTI had posted this news report:

Russia to start flight tests of fifth-generation fighter in 2009

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Postby Kartik » 13 Apr 2008 16:02

yup, an April 1st joke, except that it appeared a couple of weeks after April 1st. ignore the article.

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Postby Drevin » 14 Apr 2008 18:09

Remember there was a similar article about the MRTA being cancelled which later didn't turn out to be true. I hope things come out into the open on the kind of work share involved in this joint venture. I hope we atleast get to work on the radar, airframe and missiles for this bird.

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Postby srai » 15 Apr 2008 01:17

As long as the oil prices are high, Russia will not be short of funds :wink:

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Postby SGupta » 15 Apr 2008 15:05

srai wrote:As long as the oil prices are high, Russia will not be short of funds :wink:


Interesting - on the on line edition of the Wall Street Journal -

Russian Oil Slump
Stirs Supply Jitters
Production Decline
Is First in 10 Years;
Squeeze in Siberia

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1208206 ... whats_news

Regards,
Sanjay

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Postby NRao » 15 Apr 2008 17:41

PAK-FA thread.....just a reminder. Thx.

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Postby Avid » 15 Apr 2008 18:26

Just a reminder to the downers -- Remember the BR beloved SU-30MKI?

That too is Russian plane customized to our requirements. At the end of the day, its origin is Russian. Developed by them, manufactured by them, some customization by us.

You may compute the customization as:
% of cost from customization
% of components from customization

Either way you will find that heart and soul of that fighter is Russian.

Now stop bashing the Russians. Just because some events have left a sour taste does not mean all is bad.

We had issues with Krivak also but it was worked out.

For those who appear to be in "Mood of the Day" tide - consider the following problems between defense production and consumers:

1. Cost escalation of F-22, unhinging of seams, failure of systems at the International Date Line, .... combine this with the state of F-35... and the coastal defense ship... Does this make Lockheed all bad for the US armed forces?

2. Eurofighter saga along with numerous other EADS sagas

3. Rafale

4. F-18 super hornet (for those who do not know the hornet story please read up), coupled with the tanker fiasco, cost escalations and ... all the horror stories with Boeing.

BrahMos - end of the day it is an excellent weapon system. It is a joint system and they want to stay involved in continual production/development. So? Would India willingly supply 100% of the tech if situation was reversed? I think not! It is a joint-venture and the constraint is it will stay joint. Big deal.

PAK-FA - different company. Not related to either Groshkov or Kilo or BrahMos. Why the sheer inclination to club them all together? We had problems with Kilo. Do not forget that we have had numerous other dealings with regards to Kilo purchase and upgrades and we did not always have any such problems. So we work to fix it.

My point - get a grip, and stop blaming Russians for all evil, and everything that is wrong with our forces, or for that matter suspecting.

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Postby Igorr » 17 Apr 2008 13:59

UABC chief Fedorov said, after the development of heavy PAKFA they will start design of lighter variant of 5th gen fighter on the basis of PAKFA tech commonality: http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=53759&cid=25

Image

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Postby sauravjha » 17 Apr 2008 14:22

hey Igorr thanks for that.

However that is just one of those illustrations from paralay's site.
www.paralay.com

Gentlemen, on a more important note. i am one of those people who actually grew up with BR (spent most of his adolescence reading these pages)(':D')
and am debarred from doing BR at home ( my wife considers it a potent rival)(':oops:')
It's a shame I did not register earlier ( multitude of reasons). In any case I generally post on secret projects under the name avatar and managed to exit lurk mode here , finally.('8)')
Cool

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Postby Sanku » 17 Apr 2008 14:30

Welcome to BRF comrade Jha.....
:)

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Postby sauravjha » 17 Apr 2008 14:31

People seeking to know more about late soviet projects , could go to this site as well,
www.sergib.agava.ru

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Postby sauravjha » 17 Apr 2008 14:34

Sanku wrote:Welcome to BRF comrade Jha.....
:)



Comrades in the situation on the homefront as well, I hope :wink:

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Postby SaiK » 17 Apr 2008 17:40

If Saturn is selected for Kaveri, then there is a high chance that either PAK-FA or Indian MCA would be asked by India for firangi participations. I might easily add Israel and France to join in [mostly as supplier nation], Stakeholders being 51% India, and 49% Russia.

hah! that is a diagram of T-50, with a JSF canopy facial and MKI ass. Nothing new. Those internal bay space obtained by pushing the saturn al41 engines a bit to the left and right (structural design should increase weight?).

still paper, and not even near any secret photos one gets from chengdu's J11 etc. not even sat picture.. means, its everything inside a design shelter.

its time to see more realistic pics.
Last edited by SaiK on 17 Apr 2008 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Igorr » 17 Apr 2008 17:43

sauravjha wrote:hey Igorr thanks for that.

However that is just one of those illustrations from paralay's site.
www.paralay.com
Welcome, sauravjha! Yes, it's only speculative reconstruction on the basis of rumored information. What is known for 100% the engine of 1st program's stage will be 'Izdeliye 117C' - the Saturn's engine on Al-41's basis with Al-31 dimentions. THe engine is already tested in fly.

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Postby sauravjha » 17 Apr 2008 17:59

yup it was tested on a flanker testbed.
In any case internal carriage of the new missiles , that is , R-77 follow on etc plus the new AAM based on the K-172 seems possible.

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Postby saptarishi » 18 Apr 2008 17:14

http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1346 ... _vehicles/

Brazil to join INDIA and RUSSIA in PAK-FA DEVELOPMENT

Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.

Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.

While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.

In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.

"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.

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Postby SK Ram » 18 Apr 2008 18:42

Brazil ?? ! :shock:

Pardon my ignorance but what is the origin of Brazilian Air Defence equipments ??? IIRC they have no russian made inventory ... so its a shift in policy ?

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Postby ranganathan » 18 Apr 2008 19:02

Pure speculation. Why would brazil suddenly shift to russia? They could have started with su-35.

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Postby prashanth » 18 Apr 2008 19:30

ranganathan wrote:Pure speculation. Why would brazil suddenly shift to russia? They could have started with su-35.


Sounds like unkil mischief....

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Postby SaiK » 18 Apr 2008 20:49

brazil earlier declined the su-35 offer. right?

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Postby Avid » 19 Apr 2008 22:08

Brazil has periodically made sounds about inducting lots of things, but considering its economic situation it always pulls back from these "modernizations".

Additional geopolitical factor in case of Brazil is that it would be accompanied and matched by Argentina. Which in turn will be raise of the sceptre on Falklands again, which in turn is going to rankle the brits.

Consider current poor economic situation, uncertain future, potential worsening of situation between Argentina and Brazil. Western manufacturers are out of play - cost high, and pressure from Brits.

There is no way for Brazil to sink in money required for PAK-FA partnership or for that matter any modern ac induction.

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Postby Avid » 19 Apr 2008 22:28

Would recommend folks read about Brazilian Air Force before discussing this speculation and potential derailment of thread in pursuing the discussion.

Summary of ac operated:
Mirage 2000 - total 12 - induction started in 2006
AMX - Total 94 (according to airforce tech) or 53 according to Wiki
Norhtrop F-5 (not sure how many)
ALX - a turbo-prop COIN aircraft - 99 (currently being delivered)
In addition there are EMB maritime recon and light transport ac.

Do not see how or why Brazil may be considering PAK-FA or SU-35. There is no match with their requirements considering what they are inducting as of right now and already have in inventory.

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Postby PaulJI » 19 Apr 2008 22:54

Avid wrote:Would recommend folks read about Brazilian Air Force before discussing this speculation and potential derailment of thread in pursuing the discussion.

Summary of ac operated:
Mirage 2000 - total 12 - induction started in 2006
AMX - Total 94 (according to airforce tech) or 53 according to Wiki
Norhtrop F-5 (not sure how many)
ALX - a turbo-prop COIN aircraft - 99 (currently being delivered)
In addition there are EMB maritime recon and light transport ac.

Do not see how or why Brazil may be considering PAK-FA or SU-35. There is no match with their requirements considering what they are inducting as of right now and already have in inventory.


Current inventory does not define requirements. The Mirage 2000 were an interim acquisition, to replace Mirage IIIs which had to be retired because they had reached their fatigue limits. Brazil has a stated requirement for a new, high-performance fighter, to eventually replace the F-5E & the Mirage 2000. Initially, it was intended to replace the Mirage III, but was postponed in favour of the interim M2K acquisition.

Venezuela in inducting Su-30s into its air force. Other S. American air forces are buying (e.g. Chile) or considering new fighter purchases. While Brazil does not have an immediate risk of armed conflict with any of its neighbours, it has long had a policy of ensuring its forces are adequate to defend its land borders against any possible threat.

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Postby NRao » 19 Apr 2008 23:24

Besides what PaulJI states, it could be the MiG option.

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Postby Avid » 21 Apr 2008 17:44

PaulJI wrote:Current inventory does not define requirements. The Mirage 2000 were an interim acquisition, to replace Mirage IIIs which had to be retired because they had reached their fatigue limits. Brazil has a stated requirement for a new, high-performance fighter, to eventually replace the F-5E & the Mirage 2000. Initially, it was intended to replace the Mirage III, but was postponed in favour of the interim M2K acquisition.

Venezuela in inducting Su-30s into its air force. Other S. American air forces are buying (e.g. Chile) or considering new fighter purchases. While Brazil does not have an immediate risk of armed conflict with any of its neighbours, it has long had a policy of ensuring its forces are adequate to defend its land borders against any possible threat.


IMHO current inventory does influence requirements. The transitions in jumps are not easily done.

Brazil bought M2K as stop-gap and bought only a handful because of economic situation which does not appear to be changing in near future sufficiently to enable purchase of high-end expensive aircrafts.

Considering that M2K is being inducted right now using the excess from French AF - the replacement of these is not likely to happen in next couple decades.

The replacement of F-5 - considering the numbers, the economics, and the threat perception in the region - I don't quite see Brazil putting down $5-10 billion in development and then forking out $80~$100 million a piece. Considering Brazil's situation they are more likely to end up purchasing something akin to Gripen or even Rafale (if they feel a bit more $$$ in pocket) than undertaking a collaboration in development of PAK-FA.

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Postby Igorr » 21 Apr 2008 23:29

Sukhoi's chief Michail Pogosyan is in India and taking negotiation about PAKFA project. ITARTASS. http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=53982&cid=24
Image

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Postby SaiK » 21 Apr 2008 23:43

are they twin turbo-fans for vertical lifts? la naval JSF? any translations?

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Postby bijeet » 22 Apr 2008 00:07

SaiK wrote:are they twin turbo-fans for vertical lifts? la naval JSF? any translations?


Landing gear.

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Postby SaiK » 22 Apr 2008 01:59

duh.. you are right. I jumped generation ahead.

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Postby Multatuli » 22 Apr 2008 02:07

Wrong thread, self deleted.

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Postby shetty » 23 Apr 2008 18:48



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