The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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Postby k prasad » 23 Apr 2008 19:22

Igorr wrote:Sukhoi's chief Michail Pogosyan is in India and taking negotiation about PAKFA project. ITARTASS. http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=53982&cid=24
Image


Is it just me or does anyone else also think that the tailfins are far too small... i mean, if they want a maneuverable aircraft without wasting the aircrafts power and energy on TVC, a larger tailfin would be better, wouldn't it?

Someone plz clarify...

OT, I'm actually looking forward to a T-50 that looks more like the YF-23 rather than the F-22... that would be beautiful, and more stealthy to boot...

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Postby Sumeet » 23 Apr 2008 19:44

boss just ignore all these pics. No one knows for sure what PAK-FA looks like. So no point in unnecessary speculation at least at BRF.

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Postby vikas_pandey » 18 May 2008 10:13

Brazil has been included in this project as equal partner.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/forums/?t=3013

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Postby Igorr » 18 May 2008 14:56

vikas_pandey wrote:Brazil has been included in this project as equal partner.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/forums/?t=3013
It's still a declaration about intentions. No specific agreement was signed according to my knowleage. If so the agree of Indian part is needed too.

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Postby Shankar » 18 May 2008 15:51

Brazil in the project

In April 16th of 2008, the Brazilian newspaper, Correio Braziliense,[13] reported that Brazil just joined the PAK FA project to fulfill the failure of Project F-X.[14][15][16][17] Brazil's Strategic Affairs Minister Roberto Mangabeira Unger told reporters the agreement will lead to the development of fifth-generation jet fighters that are built using sophisticated engineering, such as composite materials, stealth technology and advanced radar.[14] The foreseeable total cost for the program is about $20 billion USD, to be divided equally between Russia, Brazil and India, which also participate in the program.[13] The unit cost, lower than those of European fighters of 4th generation, will be approximately $80 million.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_PAK_FA

some what dated but looks like brazil is serious

Brazil, Russia Sign Agreement on Fighter Jets, Space Launch Vehicles

Posted on: Thursday, 17 April 2008, 12:00 CDT

Brazil is going to participate in the programme to develop an advanced combat plane, the PAK-FA T-50, that will be built by the Russian Sukhoi firm. The aircraft, invisible to radar, promises to equal or exceed in performance the F-22 Raptor fighter produced in the United States (the most expensive in the world at a unit cost of 225m dollars) and should make its first flight within two years at most.

Construction of the new aircraft is only part of a wide-ranging memorandum of understanding negotiated in Moscow in February and signed yesterday by Minister of Strategic Affairs Mangabeira Unger and the secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, Valentin Alekseevitch. The framework agreement marks the start of extensive cooperation between the two countries, including that on technologies considered sensitive. Called for in the space field is construction of a new launch vehicle for communication and remote sensing satellites. Use of he Alcantara Airspace Base by a new binational firm is also contemplated in the treaty.

While discussing the PAK-FA, Mangabeira emphasized that it would be "a fifth-generation fighter." Total cost is estimated at about 20bn dollars to be divided among Russia, Brazil, and India, which will also participate in the programme. The unit price, lower than that of fourth-generation European fighters, will be approximately 80m dollars.

In addition to being invisible to radar, the fifth-generation combat planes will be capable of reaching supersonic speed using half the engine's power, a capability that reduces fuel expense, increases range, and reduces enemy engagement time. Currently, only the Americans have aircraft with those characteristics - the F-22 Raptors - in operation. A cheaper model, the F-35 Lightning, which costs 135m dollars, is in the certification phase. Minister of Defence Nelson Jobim was able to watch a demonstration of that fighter during his visit to the United States, but the aircraft was ruled out because no technology transfer was offered with it.

"We are interested not in buying finished goods but in partnerships that can strengthen the technological capability of both," the minister said. Besides Russia, China and Japan are also working on fifth-generation aircraft, but the PAK-FA project, which began 10 years ago, is the one currently at the most advanced stage.

http://forum.warfare.ru/

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Postby sauravjha » 18 May 2008 15:54

with 20 billion we are probably looking at some serious stuff .

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Igorr » 15 Jun 2008 22:31

5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser

Bangalore, June 14: The country's 'ambitious' fifth generation fighter aircraft will fly during March next, the information to this effect was given by M Natarajan, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister on Saturday.

Efforts were on to identify a Russian company to provide weapons and electronic warfare systems, Natarajan, who is also the secretary, Defence Research and Development Organisation, said while participating in the inauguration of the Defence avionics research establishment's new campus here.

Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

LCA has great potential notwithstanding problems, he said and added they were being attended to.

DRDO director R P Ramalingam, in his welcome address, said it would be Field-testing the fourth generation electronic warfare systems in about 18 months for Mig 27 and LCA.

There was also a possibility of extending the tests to fifth generation fighter aircraft, he said.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10102

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2008 22:57

Is it just me or does anyone else also think that the tailfins are far too small... i mean, if they want a maneuverable aircraft without wasting the aircrafts power and energy on TVC, a larger tailfin would be better, wouldn't it?


In the frontal view they look OK. From the side they look small because they are canted. Besides that the body looks much larger than we are used to - guess due to the weapons being stationed inside the body. I guess we are used to the Su-30 family and tend to compare it to that AC.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dhanush » 16 Jun 2008 00:01

Igorr wrote:5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser
Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10102



How can MCA fly by next year when the design itself hasnt been frozen? Forget about other details like Engine, Radar etc.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Igorr » 16 Jun 2008 00:11

CountdeWinter wrote:
Igorr wrote:5th generation fighter aircraft will fly in march next: Adviser
Conceptualisation studies have begun on Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) he said.

"We are in the process of evolving a design for MCA", Natarajan said.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10102



How can MCA fly by next year when the design itself hasnt been frozen? Forget about other details like Engine, Radar etc.
I will not. THey speak about PAKFA. MCA - is a different weight class, in initially phase of development (look the text).

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby srai » 16 Jun 2008 12:24

I think the first flight of the "PAK-FA" as reported being early next year is more along the lines of a Technology Demonstrator. It's external feature will resemble close to what will be developed. However, the actual engine, radar, avionics and other subsystems still need to complete design, researched and developed. Take a look at the technology demonstrators for Eurofigher, Rafale, F-22, and JSF and how long it took afterwards to get to full operational capability and into production.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 16 Jun 2008 23:15

CountdeWinter wrote:How can MCA fly by next year when the design itself hasnt been frozen? Forget about other details like Engine, Radar etc.


Perhaps it is speculative, but from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mca1.jpg (which is an ADA pic) they had been researching the MCA for quite some time now. Note that the pic shows the LCA, the MCA-1 and MCA-2. IIRC this pic is about four years old.

Let us see.

BTW, the F-22 went thru' 10 changes in 10 years!!

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Igorr » 17 Jun 2008 00:28

srai wrote:I think the first flight of the "PAK-FA" as reported being early next year is more along the lines of a Technology Demonstrator.
The technology demostrator for PAKFA is already exists. It is Su-47, notwithstanding PAKFA will have different aerodinamics. THey have checked the 5th gen technology on it. Next year you will see the pre-serial plane.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby ajay_hk » 18 Jun 2008 02:25

Posting in full as the URL might not be archived...

India’s role in Sukhoi project questioned

Price, investment for fighter jet still being discussed; design specs have been decided, first flight slated for 2009.

K. Raghu
Bangalore: India is yet to begin work on a futuristic technology demonstrator plane, a single-seat, fifth-generation fighter it is jointly developing with Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau, that will take to the skies for the first time in 2009. Some analysts are questioning the contribution of Indian aerospace research and development (R&D) engineers to the programme, given that the aircraft’s design specifications have already been decided and the first flight is set for next year. In October, India and Russia signed an agreement for the joint development and production of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, making a commitment to sharing resources and work equally. A team of officials from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, or HAL, the country’s military plane maker, was in Moscow in late May for discussions on the estimated $4 billion, or Rs17,160 crore, project.

“We are (still) talking about the price and investment costs,” said one person familiar with the development who did not want to be named because of the sensitive nature of the project. “(Also) the more we delay, the less work we will get. That is a fact.”

The fighter plane will havea so-called swept-forward wing—which increases an aircraft’s agility and gives it the stealth feature to reduce risk of detection by radar. The (technology demonstrator) aircraft being built by Sukhoi will use the engines, systems and avionics of the previous generation Su-30 plane.

“If something is going to come in one year, where could we have participation?” asked former air chief marshal S. Krishnaswamy. “That actually has a negative impact onour own R&D people and laboratories.” Another former Indian Air Force (IAF) official, air marshal B.K. Pandey, said, “If the prototype is already decided, there is nothing original that Indian aerospace industry can contribute to the programme.”

A person familiar with the programme’s development said India would bring in its expertise in carbon-composite technology used in HAL’s Dhruv advanced light helicopter and Tejas light combat aircraft, both of which are homegrown programmes. Russian, Indian firms will make an equal number of planes during the development phase. Once the technology demonstrator flies next year, Russia will work on developing more than six two-seater prototypes of the stealth fighter. Indian engineers will contribute to the design of the front fuselage, build composites for better stealth features and work on avionics. “Once the front fuselage undergoes a change (to accommodate two pilots instead of one as in the technology demonstrator), the aircraft lift conditions will change, wings will change. This is where our learning will become useful,” said the person familiar with the development.

The new aircraft would be nearly a third lighter than the Su-30 and be able to fly longer than conventional fighters, besides possessing the stealth features. The aircraft is expected to be ready for induction in the Indian and Russian air forces by 2018.

HAL has in the past produced, under licence, Russian aircraft such as the MiG 21, which forms the bulk of the IAF’s strike fighter fleet. IAF also has in its inventory the Su-30 MkI, the India variant of the fourth-generation Russian fighter with avionics built by an India-led team which HAL will make under licence in the country. The new Indo-Russian fighter is being designed to carry weapons in its fuselage, making it similar to the Joint Strike Fighter of the US.

While the components and systems would be built equally at the Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aircraft Production Association in Russia and HAL facilities in India, the engines would be made at a factory of NPO Saturn, the Russian engine maker. Both plane makers would build an equal number of aircraft during the development phase.

“Why did Russia want India to join (the programme)? Because they want money, they want (the) market,” said Pandey, a former head of IAF’s training command in Bangalore. “If we can get transfer of technology, HAL (will be) assembling the aircraft, then IAF has to buy the planes. So, they have an assured market”.

A majority of the planes in the IAF’s fleet are of Russian origin, with the rest from the UK and France. Although indigenous military plane programmes have been undertaken by the Defence Research and Development Organisation, or DRDO, and HAL, the Armed Forces remain dependent on imports. India has floated a global tender to buy 126 multi-role combat aircraft that could cost a minimum of Rs42,000 crore, evoking the interest of aerospace companies such as Lockeed Martin Corp. and Boeing Co. of the US. It also plans to buy nearly 250 light- and medium-weight helicopters.

The Tejas fighter, conceived as a replacement for the ageing Russian-built MiG 21, is at least two years behind certification as it needs to achieve the so-called air staff requirements, or ASR, the standards set by IAF before induction. The military plane unit of Boeing has been asked to assist the Aeronautical Development Agency in certification of the LCA by 2010.
DRDO is now scouting for a foreign partner to build an engine for the Tejas fighter, after its unit Gas Turbine and Research Establishment failed to deliver the Kaveri engine even after nearly two decades of development.

IMO, It was just a matter of time before these type of articles started coming up.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Vivek K » 18 Jun 2008 02:29

Shouldn't we sort out outstanding issues like Gorky, cryo engines, T-90 TOT etc before going even deeper?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Igorr » 18 Jun 2008 02:58

ajay_hk wrote:“If something is going to come in one year, where could we have participation?” asked former air chief marshal S. Krishnaswamy. “That actually has a negative impact onour own R&D people and laboratories.” Another former Indian Air Force (IAF) official, air marshal B.K. Pandey, said, “If the prototype is already decided, there is nothing original that Indian aerospace industry can contribute to the programme.”.

It's very good that this fighter will fly soon. If one gives to buraucracy the rights to decide, it should be second Kaveri\Arjun-serial issue. Let for designers an open way to finish the project quickly.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 18 Jun 2008 16:48

Igorr wrote:
ajay_hk wrote:“If something is going to come in one year, where could we have participation?” asked former air chief marshal S. Krishnaswamy. “That actually has a negative impact onour own R&D people and laboratories.” Another former Indian Air Force (IAF) official, air marshal B.K. Pandey, said, “If the prototype is already decided, there is nothing original that Indian aerospace industry can contribute to the programme.”.

It's very good that this fighter will fly soon. If one gives to buraucracy the rights to decide, it should be second Kaveri\Arjun-serial issue. Let for designers an open way to finish the project quickly.


You have missed the point.

An early entry of the PAK-FA does NOT benefit India, which is what these people are saying. And, they are right.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sumeet » 18 Jun 2008 20:30

NRao,

both MoD and IAF were slow to process russian request for JV. So russians kept going while we were doing normal chai biscuit stuff. And finally when we signed the deal with Russians they have already made a lot of progress. Now some people in our establishment are making fuss about India's role, share etc...

In short its our own ways of doing things that we have to blame for ending in this situation.

I will post the story of this 5th generation fighter again:

1) It was offered to india in June 2001. Remember at this point in time Sukhoi wasn't officially chosen over Mig for a 5th gen. project.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010819/world.htm#2

The Russian firm is now keen to involve HAL and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in the fifth generation fighter project, defence sources said.

The project will use technology from the S-37 Berkut, according to the sources. The project is reported to have been discussed in detail when Defence Minister Jaswant Singh visited Russia in June.




2) Sometime in Early 2002 Russia chose Sukhoi to develop PAK-FA over Mig.

http://www.defenseworld.net/Maks2005/maks2005.asp?id=18

Sukhoi won a government tender to develop the fighter in 2002, beating rival MiG.



Source: May 22nd, 2002, Jane's Defence Weekly
Sukhoi is expected before year-end to submit a schedule of work on the PAK FA project to a government committee. A more advanced draft of the PAK FA requirement should be ready before the end of 2003, "and then the decision will be taken concerning further work", said Gen Kolyadin."



NOTE: At this point in time Sukhoi didn't even have a final draft of its requirements. According to the russian general quoted above the requirements draft was not to be ready before 2003 end. And at Aero india 03 India was again offered the deal.


3) At Aero India 03, India was again offered participation

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20030 ... 1489.shtml

"They have given a proposal but we have asked them to give more details. We will then examine, We have not made up anything in our mind," Chairman and Managing Director of the public sector of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited N.R.Mohanty said in Bangalore.

Mohanty said such a project requires a lot of funds, adding that Russians have proposed to jointly design, develop and eventually produce by sharing costs.

He said he has also spoken to Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes in this regard, but clarified that no decision has been taken regarding Indian participation in the project.




4) Since then they have been negotiating GOI style.

As of 2005 the negotiations were going on.
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=60332

In a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha, Union Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said Russia had proposed joint development and manufacture of fifth generation fighter aircraft.

"Talks have been held between India and Russia in this regard. The discussions are at a preliminary stage," he said adding no time limit for taking a decision in the regard could be indicated.


In 2007 report in Lok Sabha some one from Mod clarified that IAF was still preparing FGFA requirements.
Last edited by Sumeet on 18 Jun 2008 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby clay » 18 Jun 2008 20:51

Sumeet,

Thank you for the timeline. This clearly shows our slow decision making process is to blame for us not joining the PAK-FA development earlier. Could be back in 2001 we did not have the funds required and may have been one of the factors for not deciding at that time but now I am beginning to wonder if the MRCA contract will be decided in this decade?

Regds, Clay

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby ranganathan » 18 Jun 2008 20:55

I am willing to bet the PAK-FA will end up becoming like Su-30MKI. HAL can license build a hundreds of them for IAF. Its entirely IAF and GOI's fault they should have started the process for a fifth gen plane atleast half a decade ago.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sumeet » 18 Jun 2008 21:39

So russian proposal had three components:
Joint Design
Joint Development
Joint Production


But our visionary IAF and super fast MoD, will make it:
Joint Development
Joint Production

Some ex IAF folks and media will be criticizing saying what is our role etc... but whats the point about crying now ?


Clay, Sukhoi froze its design in Nov/Dec 2005. And we weren't poor back in 03 and 04, even if its assumed for argument sake that we didn't have money to put into this project in 01 and 02.

We could have clearly caught the train while it was in design phase, but our lazing around 7 callous attitude is costing us dear. In 03 or 04 we could have joined with whatever money we could contribute and kept incrementing our share in the years to come.

Was russia super rich when they started the project ? Of course no. but they added funds as it became available. This is common sense to many normally functioning nations with visions for future. But is that the case for IAF & MoD ?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 18 Jun 2008 21:51

The PAK-FA is a T-90 in making , As usual we will take perpetual time to take decision and then later in circa 2015 , russia will screw us royally .......Groshkov Ishtyle :lol:

We just dont seem to learn :cry:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 19 Jun 2008 00:42

We could have clearly caught the train while it was in design phase


Around 2005 was when India had wanted a single engined 5th Gen - MiG had a proposal on the table.

Also, I do not think India was/is as much of a hurry to build a 5th Gen as the Russians and specifically Sukhoi is.

The slow process from the Indian side is maddening - no two ways about that. But, even if they had started in 2005 it would have been a long way. Just like the Brahmos project, the two had to come up with a company, under which they would perform all those functions: Design, etc.

Clearly the Russians and Sukhoi in particular, had their own time line, one that India could not subscribe to.

However, it is not too late. The AC to fly is not something India would like anyways. Besides it could be a very good tech demo from an Indian PoV.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby clay » 19 Jun 2008 01:01

Sumeet wrote:So russian proposal had three components:.......
.......But is that the case for IAF & MoD ?


Sumeet, I agree with all that you say and I am in no way trying to 'defend' the GOI's delay in deciding on the PAK-FA programme. It clearly shows a serious lack of foresignt and planning.

As far as the funding is concerned I guess there was a little indecision not due to lack of funds but because.....

- Funding was still going on for the 'in-development' Tejas.
- The MKI was just coming onstream (correct me if I am wrong) and I am sure money was flowing into the programme with respect to building up the infrastructure/tooling required for the licensed manufature. etc.

So just maybe at that point in time there was no surplus funds to invest in this venture and also HAL/IAF had their hands full with the induction of the MKI

Also, the decision could have been put off for the time being because of lack of details from the Russian side as the article from 2003 seems to suggest.

So there could have been these and other factors as well which could have contributed to this mess. But all things considered this is a big booboo on the part of the GOI/MOD/IAF.

Anyway, a beautiful opportunity has gone abegging and we have no one to blame but ourselves. I just fervently hope that the powers that be wake up and smarten up their act. No need to go far, just look across to our North-East and see how fast decisions are taken and programs implemented as far as defence requirements are concerned.

Regds, Clay

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 19 Jun 2008 01:02

There are two types of technology denials.

One without taking money and employing a self declared law, and the other taking money, and deploying a well understood law to their benifits.

From tech persepctive, I agree we are slow and that and this. that needs to be killed. But, then, this becomes a mute point, that after paying all the money for tech transfer, we end up getting nothing.

So better option, is choose the best a/c be it Russian/Euro/aKhan.. ensure we have the screw driver tech going at HAL., and our men behind those screw drivers are happy and so are the middlemen.

We have seen these in years.. all these are humbug!.. nobody is going to transfer tech even if you pay money. QED.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby vivek_ahuja » 19 Jun 2008 01:47

clay wrote:As far as the funding is concerned I guess there was a little indecision not due to lack of funds but because.....

- Funding was still going on for the 'in-development' Tejas.
- The MKI was just coming onstream (correct me if I am wrong) and I am sure money was flowing into the programme with respect to building up the infrastructure/tooling required for the licensed manufature. etc.

So just maybe at that point in time there was no surplus funds to invest in this venture and also HAL/IAF had their hands full with the induction of the MKI


Just to make a point clearer:

If India is to think about being a Regional power (let alone a global power :roll: ), it cannot give excuses that funds exist only for one fighter program at a time.

As far as decision making goes, if the GOI is going to say that its hands are full with just one fighter acquisition every decade, then we better start thinking about building air raid bunkers under our houses.

Our capability is not restricted that way so I doubt that is the case. What you have is regular feet-dragging that has been plaguing our defense acquisitions and will do so in the future.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Vivek K » 19 Jun 2008 03:04

That is well and good Vivek. However, at a time when fleet strength is down and getting worse, shouldn't we focus on getting the three main projects completed - a) Su-30, b) LCA, and c) MRCA. Only after these three are well on the way to stabilisation can we turn our attention to the 5th gen project.

So it is not one project but several (also MLUs for M2k, Mig-29s) projects that are on at the same time. We can just take a closer look at the PAK-FA presently IMHO.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Sumeet » 19 Jun 2008 07:53

I have read the posts following mine, and saw three prominent reasons given by others. Here is my reply:

1) Cost:

Code: Select all


Year                     Def. Exp. as % age of GDP
---------------------------------------------
1991-92                          2.50
1992-93                          2.35
1993-94                          2.54
1994-95                          2.30
1995-96                          2.26
1996-97                          2.16
1997-98                          2.32
1998-99                          2.29
1999-2000                        2.40
2000-2001                        2.35
2001-2002                        2.38
2002-2003                        2.27
2003-2004                        2.18
2004-2005                        2.43
2005-2006                        2.26
2006-2007                        2.10
2007-2008                        2.07



Source: 16th Report Parliamentary Committee on Defense -- Lok Sabha, 2007.

Money is not an issue in any of the years considering how little we spend on defense anyways.


2) Too many projects to tackle

Work on MCA also started in 04. We may call it preliminary but yeah it started. We could do the same or little more with Russia on PAK-FA and keep increasing contribution as time passes by.

Check this one below from June 2004:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/05drdo.htm

"We have started drawing (designing) the next generation Light Combat Aircraft, which we call as Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). We are in a dialogue with the users (IAF) to find out their design specifications," Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director General V K Aatre told reporters in Bangalore on Friday.

"Sooner or later, perhaps, in a decade or so, we should build our own twin engine aircraft," he said.



3) Matter of Choice

Mig was more of a choice especially because there India could do more design etc.. It was something on the table or pure vaporware. If IAF was so hell bent on single engine plane DRDO wouldn't release initial presentation of MCA as a twin engined stealth jet. They would get that much idea from initial interaction with IAF.

Secondly, even IAF didn't have any concrete requirement list that stated the ONLY and ONLY thing we require is a single engine fighter. Most likely reason for supporting Mig's proposal under garb of this single engine fighter requirement was so that we can contribute at the R&D level which wouldn't be the case with Sukhoi since they were done with R&D. And why we were going that way because internally GOI and IAF knew they had messed up.

Source: 15th Report. Parliamentary Committee on Defense, Lok Sabha, 2007.

Recommendation (Para No. 5.41)

The Committee note that the various features of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), as enunciated by the Ministry of Defence, are far more advanced as compared to that of the existing aircraft available with Indian Air Force. Presentation on the aircraft has been made by the Sukhoi Design Bureau and RAC MiG and the proposal is still under examination. Also consultations are going on with Russian Government in this regard for joint development. The Committee are informed that Indian Air Force is finalising the Air staff requirements for the FGFA and the concept for its development has not yet been finalised. The Committee, therefore, recommend that the Ministry must give serious thought to finalise the concept of FGFA at the earliest. The Committee also wish to be apprised periodically by the Ministry of the progress made in this regard.



My Conclusion:


Guys I have researched this issue to the core and there is no doubt in my mind that our "Chalta Hai" attitude landed us in this spot today. MoD, IAF are to be blamed. Still open to changing my mind provided someone can present a logical argument based on concrete evidence.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Vivek K » 19 Jun 2008 08:11

Sumeet, can you please clearly state your conclusion for or agianst FGFA (PAK-FA)?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 21 Jun 2008 02:03

Mig was more of a choice especially because there India could do more design etc.. It was something on the table or pure vaporware. If IAF was so hell bent on single engine plane DRDO wouldn't release initial presentation of MCA as a twin engined stealth jet. They would get that much idea from initial interaction with IAF.

Secondly, even IAF didn't have any concrete requirement list that stated the ONLY and ONLY thing we require is a single engine fighter. Most likely reason for supporting Mig's proposal under garb of this single engine fighter requirement was so that we can contribute at the R&D level which wouldn't be the case with Sukhoi since they were done with R&D. And why we were going that way because internally GOI and IAF knew they had messed up.


My read was that the IAF wanted a single engine from abroad - IF at all. The MCA being the dual engined version. And, actually drawings of the MCA - granted in very, very, very early stages predates 2004. Point being that the MCA was not some casual, fleeting thought.

JMTs.

On the Sukhoi side, my feel is that the IAF was rushed into that decision. My read was that the Russians - at that point in time - needed funds and went about twisting arms (my thinking). It was more of a political/strategic decision, than a technical one.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby srai » 21 Jun 2008 04:59

If the Indians still get bogged down in their bureaucracy, they will soon loose the opportunity to be equal partners in the design and development of the PAK-FA's radar, avionics, and engines ... :roll: ... the longer it takes to finalize the "partnership", the more it becomes a license production with TOT deal.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 21 Jun 2008 06:27

I cannot become a ToT in the normal sense. It has been clear that there will be two very different versions right from teh start ..... the Indian one consisting of more western content I suppose. What is common is being built, what is different can take time within reason ..... after all someone has to perform the integration. However, the risk involved will have to be borne by the Indians ..... that perhaps will be the price to pay for the chai-biscut mentality. However, recent reports have indicated that India is expecting things to take time ... company (like Brahmos) has ot be set up, legalities worked out, etc.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Igorr » 21 Jun 2008 10:37

NRao wrote: However, recent reports have indicated that India is expecting things to take time ... company (like Brahmos) has ot be set up, legalities worked out, etc.

Time is the crucial point for this project. It's very important for PAKFA to not late behind JSF enters serial production and goes to the world market. Cooperation is good only if it speeds up a project. Were it slows down, what sence to cooperate? Especially in the case of eager race.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby krishnasr » 22 Jun 2008 03:54

Should'nt we include on NATO member into PAKFA? how about France? why wasn't they interested? May be their version of 5th gen is much much superior to pakfa specs. Also, there was a news brief of Franco-Russian joint works on aerospace engines for civilian aircrafts. France would be a nice partner to have rather Brazil, of course, Brazil's investment and help not be sidelined.

A joint partnership with at least one NATO nation could fix many issues for India. A Indo-Russian-France-Brazil [FIRB] would be healthy. Other possible candidate countries could also include from Israel and Malaysia for technology and funding. Singapore may also be interesting partner.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Neshant » 22 Jun 2008 07:29

its not an open bar where everyone and his son is invited to join.

its just between Russia and India with India being little more than a purchaser of a plane which be largely built by Russian industry.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 22 Jun 2008 07:56

Igorr wrote:Time is the crucial point for this project. It's very important for PAKFA to not late behind JSF enters serial production and goes to the world market. Cooperation is good only if it speeds up a project. Were it slows down, what sence to cooperate? Especially in the case of eager race.


Like I said, there will be two versions of this plane: Russian and Indian. India really does not care about the "race" with the JSF, recall that India was offered the JSF at one point, and, LM is still crowing about it from a F-16 stand point. Besides India officials have stated that the expect the PAK-FA to come on line at the earliest in 2018+. It was in the same article they mentioned that will take time set up a viable company, etc.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Raj Malhotra » 22 Jun 2008 09:55

I think we should order another 300 Su-30MKI for manufacture between 2013-2020

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 01 Jul 2008 01:56

Translation credits: Roy FC

Sukhoy Holding Company's Plant in Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Begins Manufacture of Fifth Generation Combat Airplane Prototypes

The Komsomol'sk-on-Amur Gagarin Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) has begun assembly of fifth generation multirole combat airplane prototypes, the Sukhoy company's press service reports.

"Work is on-going apace on the development and creation of the fifth generation combat complex. At the present time, assembly of the prototypes is taking place at KnAAPO," it said in the report promulgated by the company

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Neshant » 01 Jul 2008 06:02

the word 'fifth generation' is thrown around these days more as a marketing ploy than anything else.

One should define what 'fifth generation' actually means.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 01 Jul 2008 06:49

Neshant,

I believe that there is a general consensus among people here, and elsewhere regarding what a fifth generation plane means.

Could you please explain why:

- you think that 'fifth generation' concept is undefined?
- you think that the term 'fifth generation' is a mere marketing ploy, ( by whom BTW? Americans? Russians? )


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