The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rkhanna » 21 Jan 2009 23:55

PAK-FA should fly in 2009.. Prototype almost Complete.


Copying the Post from WAFF.. Courtesy Filin

(Links in Russian)

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/01/21/fighter/
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/01/21/fighter1/

Summary

Ivanov set Serdyukov straight, he wants the fighter to fly in 2009 and they are also planning to construct a naval flight facility around the Black Sea(not over Ukraine). The first prototype is "nearing completion" and despite rumors of first flight being in 2010, Ivanov is really pushing for a 2009 date.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Hiten » 22 Jan 2009 02:46

UPI - Russia moves up test date for fighter jet

The testing of Russia's fifth-generation fighter aircraft has been moved up to 2009, a Russian government official said Wednesday.


Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told a meeting of the country's Military-Industrial Commission that tests of the new multi-role fighter must begin as early as 2009 so the aircraft can start service in 2015, the Russian news agency RIA Novosti reports.

Earlier plans called for testing of the new fighter aircraft to take place in 2010.

The new Russian fighter jet is being developed jointly by Russia's United Aircraft Corporation and India's Hindustan Aeronautics.

The agreement calls for producing two versions of the combat aircraft, one a two-seater to meet India's requirements and another single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.


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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 22 Jan 2009 03:45

More or less the same as what Hiten has posted with some other information.

Tests of Russia's new fighter must start in 2009

AKHTUBINSK, January 21 (RIA Novosti) - The testing of Russia's fifth-generation fighter must begin in 2009 and the aircraft should be commissioned with the Russian Air Force in 2015, a deputy prime minister said on Wednesday.

"I insist that the testing start as early as 2009, and the fifth-generation fighter must enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2015," Sergei Ivanov said at a meeting of the Military-Industrial Commission.

Earlier plans set 2010 for the first tests of the new fighter.

Ivanov said Russia was "nearing the end of the development of the first prototype of the new fighter."

Russia's advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

Russia and India will simultaneously develop two versions of the combat aircraft - a two-seat version to meet the requirements of India's air superiority doctrine, and a single-seat version for the Russian Air Force.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Ivanov said on Wednesday that the aircraft manufacturing industry should review and adjust some testing programs and methods due to advanced nature of the new aircraft.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kumar_I » 22 Jan 2009 05:08

Out of the context. Is there a possibility of India joining in development of Pak-DA. We definately needs long range bombers in future. I am not sure how Bears are working for us.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby renukb » 22 Jan 2009 09:57

From UPI.com


Russia trails U.S. in pursuit of a fifth-generation jet

WASHINGTON, Jan. 14 (UPI) -- Russia lags behind the United States in aerospace research and development. It has yet to produce decent competitors to America's two new, fifth-generation fighter jets, the Lockheed Martin (NYSE:LMT) F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter and the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor.

The main Russian rivals to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightnings are the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 (NATO designation Fulcrum F) and the Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO designation Flanker). The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 is an upgrade of the MiG-29M/M2 and the MiG-29OVT. Both are fourth-generation jets.

The Russian government has been eagerly selling the Sukhoi fighter jets to its friends, so these aircraft are likely to be found in areas where the potential for conflict is greatest, while financing development of the fifth-generation fighter from these export revenues.

Russian analysts like to note that the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF, with a maximum speed of only 1,200 mph, is slower than both the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker -- maximum speed 1,680 mph -- and the MiG-35 Fulcrum -- maximum speed 1,587 mph. The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning's range of 1,320 miles is below the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker's range of 2,260 miles as well.

While these measures make the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter seem inferior, they are actually fully consistent with its projected mission: F-35s are designed to operate in tandem with Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptors, which would clear the way for F-35s in real combat.


Moreover, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF's reported service ceiling of around 57,000 feet is superior to the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 Fulcrum's 56,000 feet and the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker's 55,000 feet. The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning JSF also claims a significant advantage in maneuverability because of its smaller size, advanced materials and lightweight construction.

On the record, Russian defense officials insist their Sukhoi and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG fighters can stand up to their American rivals. But a Russian Defense Ministry expert, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Pravda.ru that Russia "patches" its fourth-generation modifications to extend their lifespan, while most of its fifth-generation fighter program has largely remained on paper.

In fact, statistics are only the broadest indicators of an aircraft's performance. Combat performance analysis includes maneuverability, stealth, tactics, training, avionics, situation awareness, weapons, countermeasures, interoperability and supportability as major factors.

Stealth is a major discriminator between a 5G fighter like the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter and "Gen 4 plus plus" competitors like the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35 Fulcrum and the Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker that are essentially modernizations of their respective progenitors, the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 and the Sukhoi Su-27. No operational Soviet or Russian stealth aircraft has ever been reported to have entered service.

A U.S. analyst who requested anonymity said that while the Russians have some good specific system technologies, their ability to effectively integrate them often lags behind that of the West, and the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter takes integration of off-board intelligence to a step well beyond proven Russian capabilities.

"From the time of the collapse of the Soviet Union until crude oil prices recently rose to $100 per barrel, the ability of Russian aircraft designers to transition their advanced scientific knowledge through RDT&E (research, development, test and evaluation) into production-ready systems has been restricted, with funding available almost solely from sales of its legacy 4th Gen MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters to other countries," the analyst said.

With oil prices collapsing, the challenges of serial production of advanced aerospace weapons systems remains, while the Russian highly skilled military space and aviation industry labor force is pushing 60 -- beyond the life expectancy of an average Russian male.

Sukhoi Su-30 fighters bought by China and India were more advanced than those in Russian air force service, which were procured only in small quantities. Progress in completing the production development of the PAK-FA T-50, Russia's first 5G fighter design, remains dependent on Indian funding.

While notable improvements have been made in the reliability and supportability of Russian aircraft systems, they still fall far short of Western standards. This is particularly true of aircraft engines.

Russia has a long way to go to catch up with the United States in the prestigious new generation fighter competition. Only domestic politics, such as in Europe; declining economic fortunes of potential partners; and high production costs of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning Joint Strike Fighter may slow down its triumphant march.

--

(Ariel Cohen, Ph.D., is a senior research fellow in Russian and Eurasian studies and international energy security at the Catherine and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute at The Heritage Foundation).
Last edited by JaiS on 24 Jan 2009 03:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: One article delated because of it being a re-post

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 23 Jan 2009 03:54

Kumar_I,

Please take the discussion on PAK-DA and potential Indian contribution to either the Indian Military Aviation thread or the International Aerospace Discussion thread.


renukb,

Please post articles with links(if available) and do not re-post articles which have already been posted / discussed before(i.e., read the thread to see what has been discussed before posting the article).

Thanks.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby renukb » 23 Jan 2009 09:18

JaiS UPI requires you to log in to access articles.... That's why I state at the begining as from UPI.com. If you want to read the articles first hand, get an account on upi.com and read.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 23 Jan 2009 19:31

usa started the stealth program so as to have a strike aircraft which could not be detected by the russian or its allies' radar
as the number supremacy of the superpowers over others was no longer significant because only limited resources like aircrafts could be transferred to a distant location to fight by aircraft carriers to fight a-a,a-g wars ,
so something different of this sort was required after the lessons learnt from vietnam,Indo-pak war and also the demand for such a system in future against technologically almost equally equipped air forces with russian weaponry(India,iraq,north k,etc..)

the initial funding in stealth by russians was low because they didn't required it against americans as a primary strike weapon and they never knew that usa had started this project on huge funding ,so they were delayed,
they started work on their stealth only after f117 was revealed.

now the challenge lies ahead them is to develop an equal or better opponent of f22 raptor blk1 ,without spending time on initial designs and prototypes like the way usa did,

russian labs have to show miracle once again with limited funding ,like they did earlier wth MIR,soyuz,mig21,su27,akula,bulava,s-300 ..list goes on

,now they have at least some money to make something 8)

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 23 Jan 2009 20:17

The fifth-generation fighter

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) - Russian designers are currently developing a fifth-generation fighter plane, also known as the Advanced Front-Line Aviation Complex (PAK FA) for Russia's Air Force.

The new warplane is to replace fourth-generation fighters, namely, the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker and the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum.

The program caught the public's eye after Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov recently said it must be expedited.

The decision to develop the fifth-generation T-50 fighter was made in the early 2000s. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan-Gurevich and Yakovlev design bureaus, who primarily develop new fighters, offered their concepts. The Sukhoi Design Bureau was eventually awarded the program.

Various maiden flight and delivery deadlines have been mentioned. The fighter is expected to make its appearance sometime between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, Colonel General Alexandr Zelin, commander of the Air Force, said the warplane would perform its initial flight in August 2009.

Last summer, the fighter's design was approved, and the prototype blueprints were delivered to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KNAAPO), where production will reportedly be sited. Currently, the company is building three experimental fighters for testing. These prototypes are due to last for five or six years. However, a production run will not be launched before 2015.

Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the Su-27.

The Tikhomirov Instrument Engineering Research Institute, which designed the Irbis radar system for the Su-35BM Flanker generation four-plus fighter, is now developing the T-50 warplane's radar. It appears that its radar and fire control system will be based on the Su-35BM system.

Although nobody knows what the new fighter will look like, most analysts believe it will closely resemble the Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor. However, this cannot be verified at this point.

Under declassified request for proposal (RFP) provisions, the new highly maneuverable fighter will have a supersonic cruise speed, and its weapons will be stored inside the fuselage. Compared with fourth-generation planes, the T-50 will be much less visible in the radio and infrared bands.

The Air Force will be enhanced by these fifth-generation fighters, their weapons and radio-electronic equipment, as well as by ground and airborne combat-support and combat-control systems.

Although the various systems are being developed at different paces and to a varying degree of success, they are vitally important to the T-50 program's success. Without them, the fifth-generation fighter would remain an expensive toy and would fail to expand the combat potential of Air Force units.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2009 20:35

renukb wrote:JaiS UPI requires you to log in to access articles.... That's why I state at the begining as from UPI.com. If you want to read the articles first hand, get an account on upi.com and read.


then it leads to copyright violation. either del the post or give the link. and say it requires the password... unless, you have gotten the rights to copy and repost.

or just post only those relevant information for discussions here.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Jagan » 23 Jan 2009 21:54

SaiK wrote:
renukb wrote:JaiS UPI requires you to log in to access articles.... That's why I state at the begining as from UPI.com. If you want to read the articles first hand, get an account on upi.com and read.


then it leads to copyright violation. either del the post or give the link. and say it requires the password... unless, you have gotten the rights to copy and repost.

or just post only those relevant information for discussions here.


Lets make it easy. Take the headlines and google it - you will see plenty of sites that link to the article -> example link to any one of them.

UPI.com in itself hasnt asked me for a password
http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/20 ... 231951126/

and I dont even have an account there.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 23 Jan 2009 22:31

namit k wrote:usa started the stealth program so as to have a strike aircraft which could not be detected by the russian or its allies' radar
ok, what is wrong with this statement ?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby KrishG » 23 Jan 2009 23:38

Deleted.
Last edited by JaiS on 24 Jan 2009 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted as this is the third time this article is being posted in the thread. Please read the thread before contributing to avoid re-posts of same articles.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 24 Jan 2009 03:02

renukb,

The reader / forum members must not be required to go to UPI.com and search for the article. All I am saying is, since you wanted to bring attention to this article, go ahead and post the link so that as time passes, this specific article can be located easily _without_ the need to go to the UPI site and search for it. As far as logging in is concerned, sure, if someone is interested, they will create an ID on UPI.com to access the news story.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 24 Jan 2009 03:14

Translation credits: RoyFC


First Maritime Range in Russia for Testing Airplanes Should Be Located on Black Sea - Ivanov

The first maritime range in Russia for testing airplanes should be located on the Black Sea, vice premier Sergey Ivanov has opined.

"I think that the only, best location may be the Black Sea, the area adjoining the Krasnodar Kray," he said. Ivanov explained that such a range is needed right now for tests of the first fifth generation combat airplane, which are supposed to start this year. "Inasmuch as the airplane's armament envisions operating also against maritime targets, we have to create a new range," the vice premier explained. - There is no such range as of today in Russia." "A resolution was adopted at a meeting of the Russian Federation government's military and industrial commission that the Sukhoy company and the defense ministry present a plan on which they agree in the first quarter for preliminary tests, and in several months, a plan for flight tests," he reported.


Source: 22.01.09, ARMS-TASS

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 24 Jan 2009 03:17

Translation credits: RoyFC

Sergey Ivanov to Hold Military Industrial Commission Meeting devoted to Preparations for 5th Generation Airplane Tests

Vice premier Sergey Ivanov will visit the Astrakhan Oblast' today on a working visit where he will hold a meeting of the military industrial commission. As they reported at the vice premier's secretariat, the meeting will be devoted to the readiness of Russian ranges for the start of the fifth generation airplane's tests.

The first deputy chairman of the governmental commission Vladislav Putilin, air force commander-in-chief Aleksandr Zelin, the head of the Sukhoy company Mikhail Pogosyan and the governor of the Astrakhan Oblast' Aleksandr Zhilkin also will take part in the meeting.

As Sergey Ivanov announced earlier, it is planned to begin tests of fifth generation airplanes ((sic)) in the next year.

Series production, according to the head of the Sukhoy company, who is involved with the development of the airplanes, may be launched in 2015.

Source: 21.01.09, Gudok

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 26 Jan 2009 03:53

Article deleted as it is a re-post
Last edited by JaiS on 04 Feb 2009 04:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted this article: "Russia bets on new Sukhoi fighter to match F-35" as it has already posted before by Kumar I, renukb and A krish before in this thread

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Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off

Postby Hiten » 03 Feb 2009 13:53

looks like the FGFA will now officially get off air

Indian Express - Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off

........both the countries are willing to bury their differences over the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) and get the project kickstarted by the middle of this year........These issues will be sorted out soon and by the middle of the year we expect to start work so that the aircraft is inducted by 2017,”.......A general contract had been signed in December last year between HAL and Rosoboron Export for the design and development of the aircraft by the Sukhoi design bureau and the Indian aviation major.

Recession casting its evil shadow on HAL :|
HAL’s plans to set up an aerospace MRO (maintenance, repair and overhauling) facility at the HAL airport has been put on hold due to the economic recession.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby narayana » 03 Feb 2009 16:40

will it make sense to have both Single Engine and twin engine PAK-FA in IAF?particularly if Single Engine version Comes out first and there is considerable delay in Twin engine Version.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby aditp » 03 Feb 2009 18:17

narayana wrote:will it make sense to have both Single Engine and twin engine PAK-FA in IAF?particularly if Single Engine version Comes out first and there is considerable delay in Twin engine Version.


Its not single engine and twin engine issue. The PAK-FA is a defenitive twin engine fighter. While IAF wants a twin seater variant, RuAF wants a single seater version. Naturally and expectedly, the single seater will roll out first.

By then India would have paid up all the money, development work would have been completed and Indiski would be ready for being taken for a new ride....delays in 2 seater version....idiotic cost escalations et al.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Philip » 03 Feb 2009 18:37

The workload in advanced multi-role fighters is such that one pilot cannot easily accomplish all tasks in the split-second scenarios that characterises modern air warfare.How future manned fighters are also going to "mother" accompanying UCAVs is another huge question.UCAVs however controlled from ground stations with several specialised operators in attendence,have been proving themselves great successes.Even here the operators have to break every two hours and let new teams to take over,the work being so intense.In the Russian air force context,a single engined aircraft is probably preferable because of the structure of the RuAF,which has several types of aircraft in service,dedicated large strategic bombers like the Blackjack,Backfire and Bear;tactical LR strike aircraft like the SU-34,replacing the SU-24 and dedicated aircraft for air defence/domination and ground attack.The hope is that with advancing technology,more intelligent avionics and cockpit gadgetry will reduce the pilot's workload in newer fighters.

India on the other hand is trying to make almost every aircraft in its inventory fully multi-role,right from the LCA (to me questionable given the enormous devleopment time taken,as its primary role was to have replaced the MIG-21 which was meant for air defence with a secondary GR role),to the MMRCA and the SU-30MKI.We also do not have any long range strategic bombers,other than the IN's TU-142 M Bears for LRMP duties.Given the shortage of pilots too,this is a point worth debating,as the future structure of the IAF and the key primary roles of aircraft in its inventory must be outlined.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kailash » 03 Feb 2009 21:28

Hiten wrote:looks like the FGFA will now officially get off air

Indian Express - Indo-Russian FGFA project set to take off


No offense. But IMHO, these timelines are almost unachievable. We dont even have a flying prototype. Considering the complexity involved - it would take a decade to test all control laws, EW suites, sensors, weapons integration and testing.

I share Aditp's fear that this will just turn out as another blackhole for Indian investments. Why are we not able to leverage these investments to better existing deals and solve issues? Cant we link these investments with the Gorshov price negotiations or Mig29k/Mi-17 price raises? Believe we need the technology more than Russians need the money.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby adarshp » 03 Feb 2009 23:56

Kailash wrote:No offense. But IMHO, these timelines are almost unachievable. We dont even have a flying prototype. Considering the complexity involved - it would take a decade to test all control laws, EW suites, sensors, weapons integration and testing.


I am equally sceptical. The only way this does not take more time is incase the program uses shortcuts employing pre proven solutions to accelerate the platform. Some of the key things needed may come from the earlier Mig 1.44 and the earlier Sukhoi efforts in this field. I suppose we will have to wait for the specs to be published to form an opinion and to see what may be reusable. The one thing which is certain to be reused is the AL41 engines, which are already on LRIP. This is one thing which does significantly reduce the new platforms development risks IMHO.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 04 Feb 2009 01:10

The 2017 date has been there since the start, with the FGFA's first flight in 2015. The good news seems to be that they have decided to "start" work on it. IF this "start" had slipped any further the 2015 date could have been in jeopardy.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby adarshp » 04 Feb 2009 01:52

NRao wrote:The 2017 date has been there since the start, with the FGFA's first flight in 2015. The good news seems to be that they have decided to "start" work on it. IF this "start" had slipped any further the 2015 date could have been in jeopardy.


I thought that the russians were claiming the the first demonstrator would be in the air within the next 18 months. I dont have the link off hand right now, but there was some russian general who said that in an interview within the last 3 months. Is there a source for the first flight in 2015? If so, I dont think 2017 is feasible for induction. This would mean we are moving way back in the design process with the FGFA, and 2020 or beyond may be more realistic for induction incase first flight takes place by 2015.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 04 Feb 2009 03:57

adarsh, there are two versions in the works, single seat version for RuAF that you are talking about called PAKFA which is supposed to fly this year (?) and be inducted in the 2014-15 timeframe.

the IAF specific version called FGFA is 2-seat and will share basic features with PAKFA will utilise other IAF specific requirements. it would be essentially a new model based on the PAKFA.
first flight for this is supposed to be in 2012-13 (too optimistic by a couple of years) and induction by 2017.(2019-20 ?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGFA

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby adarshp » 04 Feb 2009 04:14

Thanks Rahul. Interesting if that is the case. I thought both the planes would share the same airframe, engines etc and would only differ in avionics and seating configuration. Apparently not. I had missed the wings and control surfaces part earlier.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 04 Feb 2009 07:47

loooong way to go for these:

1. stealth not establish tech yet. (requirements from by shape and by materials to design needs?)
2. internal weapons bay? looong way!
3. super cruise
4. advanced aesa radar/ perhaps AlGaN.
5. reduced emissions.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby AmitR » 04 Feb 2009 12:10

SaiK wrote:loooong way to go for these:

1. stealth not establish tech yet. (requirements from by shape and by materials to design needs?)
2. internal weapons bay? looong way!
3. super cruise
4. advanced aesa radar/ perhaps AlGaN.
5. reduced emissions.


Are we again looking at an LCA like scenario?
Is there any specific document outlining India's exact role in this project.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Philip » 05 Feb 2009 15:59

I think that at Aero-India we are going to get some substantial answers.The first problem for us is that there appears to be a shortage of scientists for the development on our side,given the multitude of aerospace projects going on right now.There is also competition between the ADA and HAL to be the boss of the project ,client the IAF.One report even had it that the IJT team was being given interim charge of the 5th-gen fighter! Secondly,the requirements/specs appear to be different for the IAF and RuAF.Single-seat vs twin,fly-by light (In) vs fly-by wire (Ru) etc. Russia wants to get its own 5th-gen fighter into service asap ,while we appear to be willing to wait a little while longer,because of the Su-30MKI programme is still unfinished and the MMRCA contest is just starting.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 05 Feb 2009 18:56

No expert, but the old Su-30 MKI team should be up to the task for the FGFA assignment. Considering FGFA is also lead by Su in RU, it should be a perfect fit.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2009 19:36

Is there any appreciable gain in opting for a Fly by Light system over Fly by Wire ?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Shameek » 05 Feb 2009 19:50

Austin wrote:Is there any appreciable gain in opting for a Fly by Light system over Fly by Wire ?


A FBL system would be less susceptible to EMI than a FBW system.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 05 Feb 2009 22:11

As a FYI Only:

Fly-by-light aircraft system cable plants
Weaver, T.L.
Digital Avionics Systems Conference, 1997. 16th DASC., AIAA/IEEE
Volume 2, Issue , 26-30 Oct 1997 Page(s):7.3 - 1-7.3-8 vol.2
Digital Object Identifier 10.1109/DASC.1997.637237
Summary:A program was completed with joint industry and government funding to apply fiber optics to aircraft. The technology offers many potential benefits. Among them are increased electromagnetic interference immunity and the possibility of reduced weight, increased reliability, and enlarged capability by redesigning architectures to use the bandwidth of fiber optics. Those benefits can be realized if fiber optics meets the requirements of aircraft networks. The Fly-by-Light Advanced System Hardware (FLASH) program expanded on previous cable plant efforts by building components based on a cohesive aircraft cable plant system concept. The concept was rooted in not just optical performance, but also cost, manufacturing installation, maintenance, and support. To do that, the FLASH team evaluated requirements, delineated use conditions, designed, built, and tested fiber optic components, for transport aircraft, tactical aircraft, and helicopters. In addition, the FLASH team developed installation and test methods, and support equipment for aircraft optical cable plants. The results of the effort are reported here


Then:

atacms wrote:
Only now we're at fly by wire?? Where's the fly by light? It's 2008 and I remember reading about FBL back in the 90's in Air Force magazine. WHy the delay?
9/3/2008 4:38 PM CDT



Graham Warwick wrote:
Eurocopter flew a fly-by-light EC135 in January 2002. And Boeing flew a digital/optical control system in a Black Hawk in the 1980s. But fly-by-light has not caught on in the fixed-wing sector either. Gulfstream recently flight-tested fly-by-light, but it is also looking at fly-by-wireless, which gets rid of wires/fibres entirely.

I'm not sure fly-by-light confers that many advantages, other than immunity from electromegnetic interference (accidental or deliberate). You still need computers, cables and connectors, and digital flight control signals don't need the bandwith optical fibre provides
9/5/2008 12:00 PM CDT

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby vipins » 05 Feb 2009 22:27

old reference of FBL system being developed for dhruv by Central Scientific Instruments Organisation (CSIO)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021223/cth1.htm#8
dated- 22 dec 2002

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2009 22:40

what is important is there should be vigor and requirement driven process to prototypes being and becoming reality. we have heard many good news, but it never gets to be used by the real user.

our r&d does not follow an agile model., that is the need of the hour. MCA is more important than pak-fa. i guess, pak-fa is more of a MKI rather.. hence, the MKI team is the best team to do the pak-fa.

if MKI team is sitting idle, then its time for them to start working.. don't waste these resourceful men.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 05 Feb 2009 22:58

has there been a report that FGFA will sport FBL ??

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 05 Feb 2009 23:49

Some times I think IAF has greatest fancy for latest and greatest bleeding edge out there , it wants to run before its sure it can walk.

I wont be surprised if IAF asks for FBL , No Vertical Tail , TVC onleee MCA , with RCS which is 1/3 of B-2 , when its comes to indeginous weapons system we are our own enemy , no wonder we end up spending $10 billion on MMRCA and something similar amount for PAK-FA , and certainly no Tax Payer in this country will be aware if his money is spent wisely or even Parliment will ever question it.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 06 Feb 2009 01:27

Had not seen this before (an sorry if posted earlier):

Oct 2008 :: India, Russia to develop different variants of FGFA

THE recently concluded eighth meeting of the Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) took up developmental plans of the proposed Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme to be jointly developed by both the countries.

Speaking to media at the conclusion of the meet, Ashok Baweja, Chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), said both sides had moved closer towards identifying key areas of participation in the FGFA programme for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007.

He said India would offer the programme its expertise in composites, which are lightweight high-strength materials that bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform. According to Baweja, the FGFA would be developed as different versions for both the countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will be a twin-seat configuration. “The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Russian aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces,” said Baweja.

The (HAL) is the Indian partner for the development of the aircraft along with the Russian Sukhoi design bureau.

The FGFA, according to Russian claims, is expected to match if not surpass the US F-22 Raptor fighter aircraft, which has entered squadron service this year.

Meanwhile, Alexey Fedorov, President of the United Aircraft Corporation, has said that the process of identifying Indian partners for the FGFA programme would be completed in the shortest possible time, possibly by the end of the year. “We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,” he said.

The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau’s PAK-FA ‘T-50’ fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year.

According to Baweja, the PAKFA’s will have stealth features as well as the ability to ‘super cruise.’ It will have the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets.

He also said that the IAF was also planning to open a Rs.-2 billion world class engineering college in Bangalore.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 06 Feb 2009 09:45

Sorry for posting thing in the wrong thread , but is interesting and a benchmark to look up to

F-22 Raptor To Make Paris Air Show Debut

The U.S. Air Force is taking the F-22 Raptor to the Paris Air Show for the first time this summer, according to Larry Lawson, executive vice president and general manager of the F-22 program.

The trip to Paris has been long delayed. A furor that surrounded the detailed customs inspection and electronic surveillance of the F-117 the only time it went to France has apparently subsided.

The new U.S. administration has no grudge against France for not participating in the invasion of Iraq. Even recent concerns about the French air force’s electronic surveillance of the Indian Air Force’s Su-30 MKI during a 2008 Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., has died down (Aerospace DAILY, Aug. 25). Moreover, the potential for additional U.S. sales and, possibly, foreign sales has removed any remaining barriers.

To pique consumer interest, Lockheed Martin has revealed better than expected performance for the stealth fighter.

The F-22s overperformance includes a radar cross section that is “better” than was contracted for, the company says. That classified requirement has been calculated at a -40 dBsm, about the size of a steel marble. By contrast, the F-35 is thought to be a -30 dBsm, the size of a golf ball. Supercruise is at Mach 1.78 rather than Mach 1.5. And acceleration – although company officials would not say from what speed or at what altitude – is 3.05 seconds quicker than the requirement of 54 seconds.

In nonafterburning military power the Raptor can operate at just more than 50,000 feet. However, it is known that the F-22 opened its aerial battles at about 65,000 feet during its first joint exercise in Alaska, apparently using afterburner.

There also is a mysterious admission that the range of the Raptor’s Northrop-Grumman/Raytheon active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar is 5 percent greater than expected. That means a cushion of an additional 5-6 miles of detection range against enemy aircraft and missiles

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Is this something that PAK-FA/FFGA can lookup to ? Specially in the area of RCS reduction ?


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