Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Nov 2009 21:22

Dmurphy wrote:Manjgu, Rahul: Alright, go ahead and make fun of me!

Pushkar: You're right about the 'fatigued' part. Though I don't quite think the NSGs didn't get a wink of sleep in 72 hours, they were stretched to their limits alright.

Shiv: Right you are as always. Why don't you use some of your surgical skills and fix him up with a prosthetic one?

ah! Now I see Murphy saab's takleef

. Never go by appearances (same goes to whoever claimed that Force 1 looks 'unsharp'). I once did a post here somewhere on how pics of western troops normally look so sharp and TFTA, yet when one sees their pics in wounded condition (which are always unposed ofcourse), they are as dirty and "pathetic" looking as SDRE troops. The zimble answer is that western journos and photographers are much better at showing their military subjects in a better light (including posed pics, airbrushing and having better knowledge) - they know how to portray military subjects in a positive/brave/heroic light. Our journos are mostly DDM (Vishnu, Mayurica etc. are exceptions) and have zero idea about anything military and mostly hold military personnel in slightly better light than the pandu with a paunch and a glorified home guard. To see the difference just see how Mayurica's productions portray our men (like her documentary on Indian SF) as compared to run of the mill documentaries on our forces by other channels.

Yes the NSG men did fight thru 72 hours or so - no sleep (and as some have claimed, no toilet functions).

The "fat" one actually has his BPJ straps at the back loosened/not secured hence you see his BPJ "bloating" up like a paunch (or maybe due to no toilet function for 72 hours

). NSG as a force takes fitness very very seriously (they have to). Till now I have never seen any serving NSG man who was not supremely fit (thats why I asked you, what is your definition of fitness) - If you ever get to see their daily regimen you will understand why (not just the raising day publicity demos). Don't expect them to look or act like pandus. Force1 is a new force - they will take time to get organized or even approach the skill level of NSG. It is not just a matter of doctrine or training...quality of intake and mindset matter. Don't forget that every NSG man is a seasoned veteran before he joins and has already seen more battles than most SF of other countries.

And don't go by the para's lined grandfatherly face - many a jehadi probably made that mistake and met his 72. Now can we go back to the scooter helmet debate?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Nov 2009 22:10

^^^
Excuse me, I'm in no takleef. And I repeat, I never meant to denigrate any of our armed forces' capabilities, but merely pointed out to the obvious. Yes I still have problems with the "emperor's new clothes" mentality, when someone sugar coats older looking personnel as "experience shows".

I really don't think its as worthwhile a cause to slug it out here on BRF, so I'm just letting it be. But make no mistake, there is NO takleef!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Nov 2009 22:15

Dmurphy,

My point exactly is that - don't mistake wrinkles (in face or clothing) for lack of fitness/skills etc. In order to be in the force the "grandfather" has to qualify in drills which would have most fit 22 year olds fainting with fatigue hence, his wrinkles/age are immaterial as long as he meets the strict quality standards (none of which involve beauty

).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2009 22:20

well may be he just had had a facial treatment that backfired bigtime, may be he is 35 only.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Nov 2009 22:30

News headline: "Elite Indian commando force has botox babes amongst its ranks"

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Nov 2009 00:09

An army soldier, his hand alone seen, shows bicycle balls he collected from the site of a blast in a market near a police station in Nalbari, about 75 kilometers (47 miles) west of Gauhati, India, Sunday, Nov. 22, 2009. Suspected militants set off two bombs outside a police station in India's restive northeast on Sunday. Police said bicycle balls were used in place of splinters in the bombs.
-------------------

Bodies of Indian paramilitary soldiers killed in an ambush by separatist rebels are brought to a hospital mortuary in Imphal, India, Monday, Nov.23, 2009. Separatist rebels ambushed a paramilitary vehicle Monday killing five soldiers in India's insurgency-wracked northeastern state of Manipur, an army official said.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 26 Nov 2009 02:41

I recently met an IA/Para/NSG veteran who lives in my neck of the woods - somewhere in the Midwest USA. Its about 6 years since he quit the IA, and let me assure you the guy although a little flabby has superb reflexes and a great eye. He's also got a bone crushing handshake grip that made my college tight end friend almost grimace. Another, friend years ago - CRPF, lean as a rail, expert marksman and Op Black Thunder veteran, back in desh, had the fastest reflexes I know, caught a snake in a flash of a second. These are tough guys and years of training hones them to deadliness. A lot of NSG guys are known to have suffered at least three fractures and two gunshot injuries.

And as always my favourite cop photo TN Special Police

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shoot_team.jpg

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 26 Nov 2009 04:45

I have a couple of mates here who served in the IDF one of em was a tank commander and they used to practice regularly against the amecians.

During one such excercise he mentioned that the Americans brought down their M1s to the negev to practice against the merkavas and he said once the yanks landed they all had awe inspiring physiques all arnie types body builders onlee...compared to them he reckons the yehudis looked either malnourished or too flabby

but guess what when it came to the excercises the merkavas kicked the m1s butt in joint exercises appearance is not everything as a matter of fact when it comes to militaries appearance should be taken even less than face value....

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Nov 2009 04:48

Rahul M wrote:well may be he just had had a facial treatment that backfired bigtime, may be he is 35 only.

I guess his point is that while our forces are as good if not better than any tfta amirkhan sf forces, they are not portrayed in such a manner in our media. While american forces usually get more media attention - h'wood and photographs, videos on them portraying them to be uber tfta stiff upper lip type of polished pizzaz forces, our forces are shown kissing their wives photus in bunkers and singing 'sandeshe aathe hain' in our movies. Plus like somebody above said, our media doesnt know the business end of a rifle from its butt. Their portrayal is a lot worse. Appearances in hotographs, videos don't mean lack of will or ability. Just that they don't seem inspiring like the tfta - to a lot of people.

Of course you guys might just be riling him up

PS : all this discussion is OT here no?

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 10:43

Mumbai's police march near the seafront in Mumbai November 26, 2009. Thursday marks the first anniversary of the Mumbai attacks, when 10 gunmen attacked various targets in the city and killed 166 people.

source: Daylife.com

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 10:44

Mumbai's police march near the seafront in Mumbai November 26, 2009. Thursday marks the first anniversary of the Mumbai attacks, when 10 gunmen attacked various targets in the city and killed 166 people.

source: Daylife.com

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 10:58

MUMBAI, INDIA - NOVEMBER 25: Security personnel patrol in an all terrain vehicle that was inaugurated in Mumbai Wednesday, November 15, 2009. (Photo by Bhaskar Paul/India Today Group/Getty Images)

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 10:59

MUMBAI, INDIA - NOVEMBER 25: Security personnel patrol in an all terrain vehicle that was inaugurated in Mumbai Wednesday, November 15, 2009. (Photo by Bhaskar Paul/India Today Group/Getty Images)

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 11:00

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 Nov 2009 11:15

Thank you vdutta for the images. Please post as many as possible.

And coould anybody tell me the difference between the personnel wearing a different headgear? The ones with maroon berets, blue berets, blue helmets and green helmets. Are they assigned different roles? If yes, then which one

I noticed:
1) Commandos with maroon berets carry MP5K
2) Commandos with blue berets carry MPSD4/ MP5A2
3) Commandos with blue helmets carry AK-47s (some with visors)
4) Commandos with green helmets carry M4 carbines.

Thanks in advance.

nainanmark · Post by **nainanmark** » 26 Nov 2009 12:40

Dmurphy wrote:^^^
Excuse me, I'm in no takleef. And I repeat, I never meant to denigrate any of our armed forces' capabilities, but merely pointed out to the obvious. Yes I still have problems with the "emperor's new clothes" mentality, when someone sugar coats older looking personnel as "experience shows".

I really don't think its as worthwhile a cause to slug it out here on BRF, so I'm just letting it be. But make no mistake, there is NO takleef!

Let me assure you the NSG trains like the devil and that includes all ranks. Dropout rates are extremely high. The training and screening leaves no room for anybody but the best. I am not sure of the Force 1 commandos but if they have trained with any of the elite IA commandos I would expect similar if not equal levels of competence.

To the "un-sharp" comment all I have to say is that it does not make sense to reinvent the wheel every time. It would be sensible to use the training and tactics of existing SF to raise a new force and then adapt them to their specific role.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Nov 2009 13:11

@DMurphy: The different commandos that you see are probably divided into Ranger and Assault groups (similar to NSG). Do they have a dedicated sniper section? - assault group is fine but snipers are an essential part of any urban CT unit (not only for offense but also acting as specialized eyes on/above the ground providing live feedback).

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 Nov 2009 13:23

Raja Bose wrote:Do they have a dedicated sniper section?

I distinctly remember articles mentioning that the Mumbai Police has procured anti-material rifles. So they should be have sniper teams as well.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Nov 2009 13:57

Very impressive show of strength...

Wish all states had done a similar thing today to send a message across.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Nov 2009 16:13

What will be interesting to see if they can sustain it in years ahead , in the past Mumbai has raised such commando force , only to be disbanded later

The bullet proof jacket seems to be of far better quality , than what the ATS squad used last year

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 26 Nov 2009 19:50

In this pic, the soldier in the background. Why has he removed the magazine of his MP5? By mistake, or any other reason?

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... e=2&mode=1

Check out the vehicle of the CISF personnel

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 26 Nov 2009 20:14

I think they mite be carrying ak-74's...This ak variant usually features the brown colored cartridge. Oh and don't the pasgt helmets look a little big? Overall, great show of force!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Nov 2009 20:15

atreya wrote:
In this pic, the soldier in the background. Why has he removed the magazine of his MP5? By mistake, or any other reason?

They have been asked to pose and the chap at the back was probably in the process of getting things fixed up for posing when the stupid photographer clicked with the fellow in front in focus and was too dumb to edit the photo (requiring rudimentary photoshop skills) before uploading. This is the level of sophistication of many of our DDM photographers. Contrast that with the slick job done by Pakis and Cheenis.

The idiot has cut of the head of the chap at the back and the shoulder of the guy in front. Neither here nor there. Overall 3/10 for that photo.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Nov 2009 21:08

I wonder if the person who gave the order for the helmets, ever bothered to check the average head sizes of the policemen who would be wearing them. An ill fitting helmet is a hell of a nuisance to the person wearing it, and in a crunch situation he will either get rid of it to enhance performance, thereby exposing himself to serious harm or go along with it thereby reducing his own performance.

There is no way a soldier can perform effectively with a helmet that big for him.

wrt the second picture, maybe the magazine holder spring and lock is defective and the magazine simply fell off. It happens sometimes. These magazines will be empty for the parade - soldiers will not be issued live magazines for a parade.

Now what we have to see is that how long is it after this sho-sha, the maharashtra home ministry deploys these trained commandos to their own security detail. If anyone is under any illusions that these guys will be protecting the city of mumbai, you need to get a reality check. From what P Chidambram was saying on that NDTV program, states misusing the assets they have is a norm. (PS: I am impressed that a home minister for the first time actually is aware of the problems and can quote figures relating to the problems at hand - that means he is also in a position to solve them)

I am sure after a suitable period of time has passed, the following is likely to happen:
1. There will be no repairs replacement adequate servicing of these weapons procured. This is a given fact. It will take sooooo long for a tender to be passed through various departments that by the time the actual repairmen arrive, the number of weapons in need of servicing would have doubled.
2. The state will cite budget issues to curtail the ammo these soldiers will need to practice. Every soldier needs to fire a certain number of rounds every year. I can bet that the state of maharashtra will not give the budget for this.
3. These armed police men will end up in the security detail of the netas once the media scrutiny is gone. If an attack happens say after a year, you can bet that the state will not be able to get enough soldiers on the ground because they will be protecting some neta or the other.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 26 Nov 2009 21:43

Nov. 24, 2009
Border Security Force (BSF) soldier looks through a Handheld Thermal Imager at Narayan Sarovar at the border with Pakistan in Kutch

Nov. 25, 2009
Border Security Force (BSF) soldier walks past BSF boats at Narayan Sarovar in Kutch

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 26 Nov 2009 21:44

RoyG wrote:I think they mite be carrying ak-74's...This ak variant usually features the brown colored cartridge. Oh and don't the pasgt helmets look a little big? Overall, great show of force!

I don't see any AK-74s. You can get brown magazines for AK-47s from many East European sources (ex: http://www.xmilitaria.co.uk/images/ak47rmag01sm.jpg). They should have just gone for more AKs with good sights and the BP-patkas that IA uses.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 26 Nov 2009 21:50

India's Border Security Force (BSF) soldiers patrol near the international border with Pakistan at Sir Creek, Gujarat. Picture taken on November 25, 2009.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 22:55

atreya wrote:

In this pic, the soldier in the background. Why has he removed the magazine of his MP5? By mistake, or any other reason?

Check out the vehicle of the CISF personnel

that pic is from the fire training and shooting. he may have removed it and going to next location after finishing the first .

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 23:39

source: daylife

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 26 Nov 2009 23:42

A commando of Maharashtra state's newly formed elite special commando force displays his skills on the first anniversary of the Mumbai terror attacks, outside the Trident hotel, one of the sites of the attack, in Mumbai, India, Thursday, Nov. 26, 2009. A police parade bristling with new hardware and armored tanks, a mournful candlelight vigil and a blood donation drive brought Mumbai residents together Thursday as they remembered the city's worst terror attack a year ago that left 166 people dead.

amphibious boat. runs on roads and water..

source: daylife.com

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Nov 2009 23:58

The BSF with Carl Gustavs?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Nov 2009 00:03

yup, they also have mortars.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Nov 2009 03:59

Captain Suresh Sharma's pictures of Indian Army:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wildhiss/s ... 081621308/

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Nov 2009 04:54

Avinash R wrote:India's Border Security Force (BSF) soldiers patrol near the international border with Pakistan at Sir Creek, Gujarat. Picture taken on November 25, 2009.
...

...

It looks like the BSF 8-man section consists of one Carl Gustav with 2 extra reloads and 7 riflemen armed with scoped 5.56mm INSAS. I don't see any LMGs in the picture.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 27 Nov 2009 06:19

just a quick thought experts pls comment. why can these people be sustituted by UAV and if any suspecious activity airlift the 8 men

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Nov 2009 06:34

We dont have that many air assets for airlifting men. Plus reaction time will be slowed down and if hostiles get alerted by UAV's buzzing they might ambush the chopper (been done many times in A'stan against US and even in pre-UAV age against Russians). Despite all sensors, both ground and airborne, in the end you need boots on the ground who can react fast. One question of mine though is (which I should X-post to UAV thread) whether we have any/have plans for armed UAVs. It is the armed UAV which has been really effective in AfPak.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 27 Nov 2009 06:35

Avinash R wrote: Nov. 24, 2009
Border Security Force (BSF) soldier looks through a Handheld Thermal Imager at Narayan Sarovar at the border with Pakistan in Kutch

Is this thermal imager manufactured by BEL ? I saw one just like that in BEL's display at IITF, New Delhi. The output was being fed to a TV

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2009 07:05

Sriman wrote:Captain Suresh Sharma's pictures of Indian Army:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wildhiss/s ... 081621308/

Aah - this man knows photography unlike the joker who has mutilated that pic that I gave 3/10 to above

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 27 Nov 2009 07:28

Ok guys, I want to hold off from commenting. Anyways, here goes.....
Being a combat vet of the IDF, I will admit that not all IDF fighters are made of steel and not all American trooper are weaklings. I remember a squad of my buddies were sent to the states in the late 80s for specialized instruction and many of them flunked.

Also, this M1 vs Merkava exercise is basically dubious partly because when the Americans send in their armor, they would make sure the whole battlefield is sanitized off any enemy assets with their superior airpower and superior tactics. Then they would send in the tanks with Apaches giving cover for the armor and fighter jets covering the Apaches. In this scenario, the Merkava will have no chance in hell. I am an Israeli and I will be the first to admit it.

About the young and old in spec ops, I will admit that with rare exception, the younger bloods almost always have better reflexes and sensory abilities. Why? Because they are young. That is how nature endowed us all. With equal training and dedication the young would be my choice anyday. Plus, the young most often fear death much less. The older guys would be my choice for instructors and in leadership positions because of their experience. Their long years of service will be wasted of he is sent into active ops when he would be better used to part his experience and knowledge to freshies. Older fighters and combat pilots are supreme waste of talents. Their knowledge and experience will be sadly wasted if they are lost through combat or accident.

Bone crushing handshake does not make up for lost reflexes. Muhammad Ali has a bone crushing handshake too. I know because I got to shake his hand last year. Lets admit it. In a spec ops, accuracy and quick reflexes are supremely important. Age takes a toll on reflex eventually. Injuries and wounds however well healed takes its own effect on the ability of a fighter to perform in a high intensity quick reaction combat. Finally, you can jump all the way to the moon but I am not gonna take with me a guy with a belly and flab into combat with me. If he gets hit, it would be an extra burden to bring him back which we must and from experience I can tell that a belly is only s sign of being less fit than the others.

Folks can take it either way you want. I only meant well.

One thing I have to gripe: I am assuming that the modern combat helmets are being produced by one or more of the OFBs. For heaven sakes, can't they make the helmets compatible to Indian anatomy? Do they have to imitate every inch of it the west? Same with bpj.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2009 09:01

asprinzl wrote: One thing I have to gripe: I am assuming that the modern combat helmets are being produced by one or more of the OFBs. For heaven sakes, can't they make the helmets compatible to Indian anatomy? Do they have to imitate every inch of it the west? Same with bpj.

Always Import. Imported is always better no? Indian heads should grow to fit American helmets. Americas greatness is reflected in bigger helmets and if India wants to become great we have to learn to grow our heads to fit those helmets.

More seriously I don't think American heads that that much bigger - I think those helmets provide room for something else to be worn underneath - eg over the ears. just a guess. In the absence of that these helmet look horrendous and a sharp gust of wind might make them take off.